Criminal Justice Bill

Debate between Maria Miller and Vicky Ford

Report stage
Wednesday 15th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Vicky Ford]

Before speaking to new clauses 25 and 26 in my name, I want to say that it was a huge honour and privilege to serve in Committee, where we did a huge amount of work on the Bill. We can all see elements of the Bill that affect our constituencies. In Chelmsford, outlawing the scanners that thieves use to intercept car key signals so that they can drive away with our vehicles is welcome. Essex’s police and crime commissioner has campaigned for the new knife crime laws. Along with others, I have campaigned and lobbied the Minister for the amendments she tabled on spiking. I also support the amendments before us today on a huge range of matters, including the ones on dangerous cycling, cuckooing and revenge porn.

This shows the Bill’s incredibly wide scope, which provides an opportunity to update crucial laws in so many areas. Faint-hearted or cowardly Ministers would not have given us a Bill with such broad scope. They would have shied away from it, fearing having so many amendments and so many areas of controversy. They would have feared colleagues tabling amendments to play political games, and they would not have taken the risk. Ministers have done the right thing by introducing a Bill with such broad scope. They recognise that even the best laws sometimes need a fresh pair of eyes, because situations change, and they want our laws in this country to be the best they can possibly be. I thank them for not shying away from the work and for being so brave in allowing these discussions to happen.

My amendments are far from playing political games. They propose extremely important laws to protect children from the vilest of vile crimes—child sexual abuse and, particularly, online child sexual abuse. There is a good reason why, for so many decades, it has been illegal for people to have images of child sexual abuse on their computer, because we know that people who look at this sort of content are more likely to step from the visual world into the real world to abuse children. I would argue that people who abuse children in the virtual world are even more likely to go on to abuse real children.

New clause 25 would update our laws on paedophile manuals to include AI-generated material. New clause 26, which would also update the law for the rapid evolution of AI, would make it illegal to use digital tools such as bots or avatars to simulate sexual communication with a child. This would include acts such as creating a bot or avatar to rape a child in the digital world.

I thank the Internet Watch Foundation for its work on these new clauses, which are supported by the police lead on child sexual abuse and others. Artificial intelligence is developing extraordinarily rapidly. There has been an explosion in AI content, and the consequences of that in the dark world of child sexual abuse are devastating. AI-generated images are becoming so widespread on the internet that when the IWF conducted a snapshot study between September and October of just one dark web forum, it discovered that more than 20,000 AI-generated images of child sexual abuse had been uploaded in just that one month on that one forum. These images are now so realistic that it is incredibly difficult for law enforcement agencies to tell the difference between real images of real children, who need real safeguarding, and those that have been generated using AI.

I turn to new clause 26. Under section 15A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, it is an offence to communicate sexually with a child. The new clause creates a new offence of simulating sexual activity with a child; this includes using, creating or sharing bots or other tools to simulate sexual communication with children. I am told that in online paedophile communities there is always a desire to utilise technology to bring the fantasies of child sexual abuse closer to a reality. The evolution of AI technology is seen as the ultimate solution—it is grim; it allows child abusers to feel as close to the sensation of interacting with and abusing a real child as possible without actually committing the physical act of abusing a child. However, just as we know that a person who regularly views image of CSA is more likely to sexually abuse a real child, it is absolutely clear that a person who abuses a virtual child, or directs an online companion or bot to do so, is much more likely to go on to abuse a real one.

[Dame Maria Miller]

My right hon. Friend is dealing with an issue that demonstrates the type of issue pervading all of this Bill. Again, I pay tribute to all the people who served on the Bill Committee and dealt with such a difficult range of issues, as they have done a great service to our House.

[Vicky Ford]

On behalf of all of us who served on the Committee, I thank my right hon. Friend for that. I should say that the Ministers and shadow Ministers did a huge amount of work on the Bill.

To put it simply, the online act of abuse lowers the bar to physical offending. There is huge concern regarding the development of AI chatbots and the ease, speed, and quality with which text-to-image-based generative AI tools have been developed. Furthermore, it is important to recognise that this is becoming a risk to massive numbers of children. The National Crime Agency estimates that approximately 680,000 to 830,000 people in the UK—between 1.3% and 1.6% of the adult population—pose some form of sexual threat to children.

Android and iOS app stores have a plentiful supply of AI companion apps. They enable the user to create an imaginary online friend, to choose what that friend looks like and to direct what they do. The three largest apps have already received well over 1 million downloads each. Within minutes of downloading one of these popular apps, law enforcement operatives were able to have an interactive communication with an AI chatbot discussing the abduction, sexual abuse, torture and murder of an eight-year-old girl.

Furthermore, through monitoring offender discussions online, we know that technically capable users are actively building AI chatbot companions specifically for the purpose of having realistic, paedophilic role-plays involving AI child avatars. Ian Critchley, the national police lead on child protection, has warned that the metaverse creates a

“gateway for predators to commit horrific crimes against children”.

There are many stories of child avatars having been subjected to the most hideous of rapes. In evidence to the Education Committee, of which I am a member, the Children’s Commissioner described a child who had

“virtually experienced being raped and sexually abused.”

She said that we must not think that that type of rape is not traumatic, just because it happens in an online world. It is traumatic. It is abuse, and it can be part of grooming. She warned us legislators to

“not underestimate the safeguarding issues”.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Maria Miller and Vicky Ford

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

17. What diplomatic steps the Government are taking in response to the recent conflict on the Polish-Belarusian border.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Vicky Ford)]

The Foreign Secretary will also be discussing Belarus with NATO partners today.

We remain deeply concerned about the human rights situation in Belarus. The UK has imposed over 100 sanctions designations. The action by Lukashenko to engineer a migrant crisis is an attempt to undermine Poland and others in the region. The Prime Minister emphasised our commitment to Poland’s security when he met the Polish Prime Minister last Friday. The UK will continue to work closely with our partners in holding Lukashenko to account.

[Mrs Miller]

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. The situation in Belarus is truly disturbing. More than a year on from the 2020 presidential elections in Belarus, over 30,000 people have been detained, with widespread allegations of torture and ill-treatment, and hundreds of civil society activists and human rights defenders being detained. What can my hon. Friend do for those who are detained—for example, Mikita Zalatarou, who was just 16 when he was arrested, and has allegedly been tortured and kept in solitary confinement?

[Vicky Ford]

We are appalled by reports that there are now over 850 political prisoners in Belarus, and we strongly urge the Belarusian authorities to immediately and unconditionally release all those held on political grounds. We are supporting mechanisms through the UN, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe and independent non-governmental organisations to investigate human rights violations in Belarus and hold those responsible to account. As I said earlier, we have also taken direct action through over 100 sanctions designations.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Maria Miller and Vicky Ford

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 9th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Miller]

My hon. Friend gets to the nub of the matter. The human rights organisation in Northern Ireland did not have standing to take a case, because of a strange error in the way that the law was drafted. Presumably, that could be put right quickly—possibly through this Bill—so that individuals such as Sarah Ewart would not have to go through this process, which is heartbreaking and impossibly difficult for anyone, let alone someone who has lost a child in this way.

New clauses 10 to 12 go much further than the Select Committee’s recommendations, and they talk about implementing the CEDAW report in full. I have no problems with the CEDAW report. I think it is comprehensive and compelling, and the Government should address it in full, because we are signatories to this agreement—as a well-respected international country, we adhere to the rules and regulations that we sign up to. However, hon. Members should be careful before finalising their thoughts on whether to support new clauses 10 to 12.

The CEDAW report calls on the Government to repeal sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. Doing so would go much further than simply making it lawful for an individual to undertake an abortion if they have had a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality, and it would have significant repercussions not only in Northern Ireland but in England. I ask hon. Members to consider whether this Bill is the most appropriate avenue to make such a fundamental change.

I do not disagree with the sentiment of the hon. Member for Walthamstow. She has consistently made a powerful argument in many similar debates, and one day we will get the opportunity to debate the matter in full. However, it does not feel right to me to make these changes through a Bill that has absolutely nothing to do with England and Wales, on a matter that is fundamental to many hon. Members who are probably not here today because they might not have realised the implications of her new clause.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. As a member of the Women and Equalities Committee, I, too, was involved in its detailed inquiry into this very challenging issue, and I completely agree with the cross-party recommendations in that report. I agree that the fundamental issue with new clause 10 is that it affects abortion law across the whole UK, not just in Northern Ireland. I remind her that we made a number of other recommendations in that report to assist women. Does she agree that the Government should consider all the recommendations in the Committee’s report with urgency?

[Mrs Miller]

I thank my hon. Friend for all her work on the Select Committee, of which she is a valuable and valued member. She is right that we cannot look at these things in isolation. There has to be a package of measures. Hon. Members from all parties know that if we were to repeal the law in the way that is recommended in new clauses 10 to 12, we would also have to look fundamentally at the provision of services in Northern Ireland.

The first step is to address the issue of fatal foetal abnormality. I fear dreadfully treading on the toes of my colleagues from Northern Ireland, who represent the men and women who live there. However, in the absence of a functioning Executive, it would be an absolute abrogation of my responsibility as a Member of Parliament not to raise these issues in the House today. I have had conversations with my Northern Ireland colleagues and with members of other parties who choose not to take their seats here, because I believe it is important for the voices of the people who represent those in Northern Ireland to be heard strongly in this debate, but I do not think it is easy to argue against the factual findings of the Select Committee report.

Cox Report: Implementation

Debate between Maria Miller and Vicky Ford

Tuesday 18th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Everyone is entitled to work free from harassment and abuse in an environment that promotes dignity and respect, yet sexual harassment and violence against women in politics is a long-standing phenomenon in the UK and in many other countries. I am proud to chair the all-party group on women in Parliament, the women’s caucus that works to encourage more women to come into political life and to support one another when they do. In the past couple of years, there have been a number of inquiries into the nature and extent of sexual harassment in Westminster, and the inquiry by Dame Laura Cox was pivotal in shining a light on the scale of sexual harassment, intimidation and bullying in Parliament.

The women’s caucus held a meeting in February with Dame Laura, and we were delighted that the then Leader of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), was able to attend and reaffirm the commitment of the House to driving forward meaningful change in this area. We welcomed, and continue to welcome, the lead that the House has taken in ensuring ongoing reform and making Parliament a place where everyone is treated with dignity and respect. While the allegations of bullying and harassment in Parliament shocked all of us we were glad to see progress, with the new complaints and grievance policy now up and running. However, while there were welcome changes, such as the appointment of a new director of HR and a cultural transformation director, along with some interim changes on the Committee on Standards, Dame Laura conveyed to the group issues that have been raised with her by members of staff in both the Lords and the Commons about the implementation of her report. As chair of the all-party group, I would like to set out some of her concerns, bearing in mind that it is nine months since the publication of her report.

There were particular concerns about transparency and the rate of progress in implementing the recommendations. Dame Laura has received requests for amendments to the new independent complaints and grievance scheme to enable members of staff to bring complaints relating to historical allegations. Members of staff often find it difficult to make such complaints. There have also been suggestions to make sure that the processes for determining complaints brought by members of staff against MPs will be entirely independent and that MPs will play no part in those processes. I urge the new Leader of the House to look at those two specific suggestions and make sure that progress is made on those issues.

Dame Laura expressed concern about her recommendations becoming bogged down in process through, for example, the setting up of working groups and advisory panels. The feedback that she received from staff was that they were concerned about knowing who is responsible for what, and the dates by which action should be taken. The problem of becoming bogged down in the process and detail, rather than seeing the big picture, was holding back progress.

We need better communication both to members of staff and to members of the public on the parliamentary website about what has been done and by whom. It was good that the House of Commons Commission published a statement on the way forward last week, but much more regular communication is needed for transparency. The biggest concern expressed to Dame Laura by staff was that some MPs and senior management—and, indeed, some very senior MPs—are prevaricating and delaying. It has even been suggested that that is with the aim of attempting to water down the recommendations. Delay can only exacerbate the lack of trust and confidence of members of staff that there will be fundamental change and that recommendations will be carried out. Any delays can only worsen the level of public confidence in the House’s ability to correct past errors and implement fundamental change. As I have said, these accusations were passed on to Dame Laura by members of staff.

We know from research by the Fawcett Society that the level of public concern about the nature and extent of allegations is very high, with 73% of both men and women believing that there needs to be change in how unwanted sexual harassment is dealt with in politics. If there are delays, they will only continue to undermine the legitimacy and authority of our own Parliament. There must be greater transparency and greater accountability. These recommendations are important, and progress needs to be seen.

I have a couple of other points to make. Having worked in politics for a decade both in Europe and then here, I see how it is very stressful. We in this place face very difficult decisions. We are living at a time of great change, with great challenges. We are living in the middle of an industrial revolution—the digital revolution—with huge demographic changes putting great pressure on our public services. We see the generational challenge of addressing climate change, which we must get on top of now, or the next generation will not have a planet as we know it for the future. On top of that, we in this place of course face the overlaying challenge of resolving Brexit.

It is therefore not surprising that politicians are under great stress and can be snappy. However, there is a difference between being stressed and snappy and continual harassment of staff, which is the allegation laid in front of us. There is work we could do to alleviate the level of stress in this place. I have talked about the lack of predictability of the parliamentary day, and other Parliaments have managed to find ways to resolve that, which does destress the working environment. I was very pleased to take part in the gender-sensitive Parliament audit last year, which made many recommendations about how to make this Parliament a more welcoming and sensitive place for Members, staff and those who work here, especially those with families or other caring responsibilities. I am very pleased to be on the Sub-Committee of the Women and Equalities Committee that is looking at implementing those recommendations.

I really feel strongly that I do not want to leave the impression that women are not wanted in this place. There are more women on these Benches in Parliament than ever before. Women make a huge difference in their constituencies, and they make a huge difference in Westminster. We need more of them here, and we must support them. In the news today has been the need to make sure we are supporting women, especially when they are expecting a baby or when they have a baby. No woman should have to choose between having a family and standing for political office, and I am very sorry to hear the concerns of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy).

However, I have been in touch today with a number of women MPs who have recently had a baby or are expecting a baby very soon, and some have commented on the great support they are being given by their colleagues, constituents and staff. Indeed, the Minister with responsibility for the constitution, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith), who is currently on maternity leave, has commented that proxy voting is a good start. She has been in touch digitally today on these matters to remind us, at the same time as she is breastfeeding, that it is National Breastfeeding Week. We are introducing measures to make sure that our women and our men can have such flexibility. Again, I thank the former Leader of the House for her efforts in introducing proxy voting.

[Mrs Miller]

My hon. Friend is making a really important point. It is really important that the message that goes out from this place is that women should be MPs. Having children should not be an impediment to having a career in Parliament. My youngest was three when I joined—Madam Deputy Speaker, you have probably got a better story than that. Even back then, in 2005, it was very possible to do that. I would want to offer every support to any Member who felt that it was difficult.

[Vicky Ford]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that valuable point. I say again that there are more women in this place than ever before and they make a hugely valuable contribution. There are many women in this place who have just become mums or are soon to become mums—on that point, I note my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mrs Badenoch), most fondly. We must make sure that mums and dads have the flexibility to take parental leave and to be supported during the time when they are expecting a baby. Every constituency in this country is different and every Member of Parliament represents their constituency in a different way. We need to make sure that each MP has the flexibility to make sure that their constituents continue to be represented when they are taking parental leave.

I want to make one final point about harassment. Harassment of politicians and our staff does not just happen in the physical world. It happens increasingly online, and there has been exponential growth in that online abuse. Action must be taken to stop the online harassment of women involved in politics—and it is women who are harassed more.