Digital Economy

Margot James Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries (Margot James)]

I beg to move,

That the draft Online Pornography (Commercial Basis) Regulations 2018, which were laid before this House on 10 October, be approved.

[Mr Speaker]

With this we shall consider the following motions:

That the draft British Board of Film Classification Guidance on Ancillary Service Providers 2018, which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved.

That the draft British Board of Film Classification Guidance on Age-verification Arrangements 2018, which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved.

[Margot James]

The Digital Economy Act 2017 introduced the requirement for commercial providers of online pornography to have robust age-verification controls in place to prevent children and young people under 18 from accessing pornographic material that is made available on a commercial basis.

Section 14(2) of the Act states:

“The Secretary of State may make regulations specifying…circumstances in which material is or is not to be regarded as made available on a commercial basis.”

So, in a sense, this is a small part of the legislative jigsaw needed to implement age verification. It is the last piece. I therefore ask that the draft Online Pornography (Commercial Basis) Regulations 2018, and the two pieces of guidance published by the British Board of Film Classification on age-verification arrangements and on ancillary services providers be approved.

I should bring to the attention of the House the concerns of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which I thank for their work. I will address their concerns in a moment but, before coming to the specific points related to this debate, I remind the House why we are introducing this requirement.

In the offline world, there are strict rules to deter children from accessing adult content. A large amount of pornography is available on the internet in the UK, often for free, with little or no protections to ensure that those accessing the content are old enough to do so.

[Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con)]

This legislation is long overdue and I really welcome it. I ask the House to indulge me for a second. A parent came to my surgery soon after I was elected to discuss how their child had suffered a sexual assault in a school. During the conversation, the mother mentioned to me, at some length, the ready availability of online pornography at school, how this was a motivating factor—or at least a contributory factor—to the assault and the fact that it just damages our relationships with one another, particularly in young minds.

[Margot James]

I thank my hon. Friend for that heartfelt intervention. I am very sorry indeed to hear about that case. There is great validity to the concerns the mother expressed to him.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

In the Women and Equalities Committee, as a response to the awfulness of the #MeToo campaign, we took evidence that showed that the consumption of pornography is associated with higher levels of violence, including rape and sexual harassment. I therefore thank my hon. Friend for introducing age verification and for making sure that it works.

Public places are not age specific, and the Committee also suggested that viewing online pornography in public places, such as on buses and trains, should be restricted. Do the Government intend to go further by introducing a restriction on viewing online pornography in public places?

[Margot James]

I must congratulate the Women and Equalities Committee on its extremely valuable work in this area. It exposed some very concerning issues and backed up its recommendations with evidence. Although the regulations do not touch on the viewing of pornography in public places, we have heard the recommendation of the Committee and what my hon. Friend has just said about that problem. That might be an indirect way of making such material accessible to the very children and young people whom the regulations are designed to help.

[Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con)]

I understand that, in 2015, Ofcom said that that was the pivotal time when we switched from people viewing the internet on desktop computers to more people viewing it on handheld devices such as smartphones. The potential for people to view such things inadvertently in public, which has been identified by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford), has therefore increased dramatically, as has the potential for children to be exposed to it.

[Margot James]

I follow my hon. Friend’s logic. That was the conclusion that Ofcom reached. It is definitely worth considering the recommendation that he and my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) have made on reviewing the law on viewing pornography in a public place.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am sure that there is consensus across the House about protecting young people under the age of 18 from illegal or inappropriate material. What steps are being taken to ensure that, in any of the regulations or any of the wider efforts the Government are taking, we do not accidentally prevent young people from accessing age-appropriate material about sex and relationships education? I am aware of material for young lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people on YouTube and other platforms that has been erroneously caught up in age filters and other restrictions. That prevents young people from finding out in a healthy and age-appropriate way about their sexuality and the key things they need to understand as they are growing up.

[Margot James]

The hon. Gentleman makes some very good points. I am aware of some of the cases to which he refers. When I explain the detail of the regulations, it should reassure him that we are seeking to catch the commercial provision of pornography on sites where at least two thirds of the content is of an adult nature. I think that should allay his concerns. However, we should keep the issue he raises closely under review.

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

I very much welcome today’s debate and the Government’s proposals, but parents who are listening to this debate may go away with the impression that everything on the internet will be subject to an age barrier. Will the Minister be clearer, for the benefit of parents who are listening, that the regulations will not include social media? What is she doing to ensure that social media platforms do not inadvertently become the way that young people under the age of 15 access pornography in the future?

[Margot James]

I welcome the intervention from the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee. Let me clarify here and now that the regulations are a very important step forward in preventing children from viewing pornography online. In particular, we are closing the loophole whereby children can stumble across such material inadvertently. However, my right hon. Friend is right that the regulations do not extend to social media platforms that contain pornographic content that is a relatively small minority of the content that they provide. This is not a foolproof guarantee that young people and children will not be exposed to pornography online. It is a significant step forward, but there is, as my right hon. Friend points out, the potential for people to access material on social media platforms, which do not fall within the scope of the regulations unless more than a third of their average content is pornographic.

[Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Margot James]

I am sorry that I am taking a long time to answer my right hon. Friend’s point, but it is an important one. I will finish with the last intervention before I take more interventions.

The Government are keeping a weather eye on the availability of pornography on social media platforms. I shall talk more about that, but I reassure my right hon. Friend that we will introduce further measures. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, who is in the Chamber, has a duty to report back on the impact of the regulations 12 to 18 months after their commencement and he will look at just the issues my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) has raised. I will make a little progress before taking further interventions.

There is no doubt, going back to the work of the Women and Equalities Committee, that the large amount of pornography available on the internet in the UK, often for free and with no protections to ensure that those accessing it are old enough to do so, is leading to a change in the way that young people understand healthy relationships, sex and consent. I know that that is a major issue of concern to everybody across the House. A 2016 report commissioned by the Children’s Commissioner and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children made that absolutely clear. More than half of the children sampled had been exposed to online pornography by the age of 15, nearly half of the boys thought that the pornography they had seen was realistic, and just under half wished to emulate what they had seen.

The introduction of a requirement for age-verification controls is a necessary step in tackling those issues and it contributes towards our commitment to make the UK a safer place to be online, particularly for children and young people.

[Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, when children have such experiences at a very young age, it can affect them for the whole of their life and have a big impact on their relationships as they grow up and get married? Indeed, it can affect not just their relationship with their partner, but their relationships with their children as well.

[Margot James]

I very much agree that, if children see hardcore pornography when they are too young to understand it, it can have long-lasting and very negative impacts on their development and future relationships. My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

The draft Online Pornography (Commercial Basis) Regulations set out the basis on which pornographic material is to be regarded as

“made available on a commercial basis”.

The regulations cover material on websites and applications that charge for access. They also cover circumstances where a person makes available pornographic material on the internet for free, but then receives payment or reward for doing so, for example, through advertising revenue.

It was clear from the debates in this House during the passage of the Digital Economy Act that it was not Parliament’s intention that social media sites on which pornography is only a small part of the overall content should be required to have age verification.

[Neil O’Brien]

As a member of the Science and Technology Committee, I have been involved in our ongoing report on smartphones, social media and young people’s mental health. Absolutely central to that report is the whole issue of age verification for access not just to pornography but to gambling, violent material and things like that. Does the Minister share my strong view that many large social media companies—some of the world’s largest companies, with almost unbelievably sophisticated granular data on their users—have to be raising their game? In the run-up to the online harms White Paper, which goes beyond what we are talking about today, companies in the industry absolutely need to raise their game, because they are allowing their own terms of use to be violated, and they know that is happening but are doing nothing about it.

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[Margot James]

My hon. Friend raises some important points. We do have rising expectations of social media platforms; we expect at the very least that they enforce their own terms and conditions. Some enforce to a greater extent than others, especially in terms of this particular issue. Facebook takes down posts that include nudity, which is its way of enforcing its own terms and conditions, but what about the private groups that operate on that platform? There is much more to be done. We expect social media platforms to uphold their terms and conditions across their platforms, not just in the public-facing parts of it.

[Rachel Maclean]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech dealing with this critical issue that any of us who are responsible for young people will feel very strongly about. Does she agree that there is a rapid evolution in the technology sector? She talked specifically about pornographic sites that charge for access. Will she say a bit more about how she would deal with those sites that offer slightly different business models—for example, the premium model, where it is free to go on to the site and it then captures people’s details and makes them pay a subscription fee later? I am sure that she has considered that as part of her response, so I would be grateful if she could update us on it.

[Margot James]

These regulations will apply even to pornographic sites that make their initial offer free of charge. The rule is that, if a site offering a service where more than 30% of its content is pornographic does so on a commercial basis—which can be free of charge if it is backed up by advertising revenues—it comes within the scope of these regulations, whether or not it provides those services free of charge. These draft regulations will capture such sites as are of concern to my hon. Friend.

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

I chaired the UK Council for Child Internet Safety for two and half years. While I applaud the regulations that the Minister is bringing forward, this is scratching the surface. The problem is that these days very few young people pay to access hardcore pornography on the internet. Unless we have some form of verifiable, age-based permission such as the use of a credit card—even if that is not charged for—we are not going to prevent this from happening. Actually, the much bigger problem is on social media, with sexting and everything else that goes on. Social media companies, including ones that we have had in front of the Home Affairs Committee, are turning a blind eye to the hosting of exceedingly dangerous material that young people are accessing and normalising, and then they are transferring that to their relationships during impressionable years. We really have got to do so much better than this.

[Margot James]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he has done while chairing that important body, the UK Council for Child Internet Safety. I have already made clear in my answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke, the Chair of the Select Committee, that we do recognise that these regulations are a first step. Although we have high expectations of what they can achieve, we are fully aware that they do not go as far as to be able to satisfy the vast majority of our concerns where social media platforms are concerned, where the majority of content is not pornographic.

I would like to reassure the House, however, that I do believe that these regulations will be more effective than my hon. Friend fears, because they will cover sites that make pornography available free of charge. As he rightly points out, the majority of young people access pornography without paying for the service. However, if they access it from a site that is predominantly pornographic and is offering a pornographic service on a commercial basis, then, whether it is free of charge or paid for, the regulations will capture both. I would like to reassure him that these regulations will bring into scope the sites about which he is concerned that currently provide these services free of charge.

My hon. Friend will also be reassured to know, when I go on to explain a little more about the actual process of age verification, that it is not simply a matter of being able to offer a credit card. The rigour of age verification provision will be stricter than that. That will also help to counter the growing trend of young people accessing pornography before they attain the age of 18.

[Stephen Doughty]

Further to the comments by my colleague on the Home Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), we have raised a series of concerns with social media companies and other technology companies about access to inappropriate, violent or extreme content, as well as the content that we are discussing today. Will the Minister and the Government look much more closely at peer-to-peer sharing sites like Snapchat and closed messaging groups on Instagram, Kik and other messaging sites? It is my understanding, from speaking to a lot of young people in my constituency, that that is where a lot of this content is. No age verification goes on, and it is simply done in encrypted sharing. Some of it is self-generated content where people are doing revenge porn, sexting and sharing types of images that not only constitute committing an offence because they are creating child pornography, but are well outside the scope of what one would find on a commercial site. Will she reassure us that serious work will be undertaken to look at that area?

[Margot James]

I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that serious work is being undertaken as we speak, as we prepare the online harms White Paper. We are looking at encryption within the context of that White Paper. He will appreciate the difficulties of privacy versus the public need to reduce the exposure of young people to pornographic material. We are looking at this very seriously. We will be bringing forward the White Paper in the new year and will welcome his input on that.

We have set a threshold of 30% to ensure proportionality where material is made available free of charge. Thus there is an exemption for people making available pornographic content on a website where it makes up under one third of that content. This will ensure that websites that do not derive a significant proportion of their overall commercial benefit from pornography are not regarded in these regulations as commercial pornographic websites. Nevertheless, should a website or app be marketed as making available pornographic material, a person making such material available on that site will be considered to be making it available on a commercial basis even if it constitutes less than one third of the total. This is a proportionate way to introduce the new policy.

I am confident that these measures represent the most effective way to commence this important new policy, but our Department will of course keep it under review. Indeed, as I said, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be reporting on the regulatory framework within 12 to 18 months of commencement of the regulations. In addition, as I just mentioned in response to the hon. Gentleman, the forthcoming online harms White Paper will provide us with another opportunity to review the wider context of this policy.

In conjunction, we have laid two pieces of British Board of Film Classification guidance—first, on age verification arrangements and, secondly, on ancillary service providers. The first piece of guidance sets out the criteria by which the BBFC will assess whether a person has met the requirements of section 14 of the Digital Economy Act 2017 to ensure that pornographic material is not normally accessible to those under 18. The criteria mandate four things: an effective control mechanism at the point of access to verify that a user is aged 18 or over; strict requirements on age verification data; a requirement to ensure that revisits to a site do not permit the bypassing of age verification controls; and the prevention of non-human operators—for example, bots—from exercising the age-verification regime.

[Rachel Maclean]

Does the Minister believe that the BBFC has sufficient resources and skills to do what the regulations require of it?

[Margot James]

I would like to reassure my hon. Friend that I certainly think it has the experience, expertise and resources to undertake this role. It has more than a century of experience in the control of film content. It has additional resources and moneys with which it can hold to account age-verification providers and, most importantly, the websites that are providing the pornographic content.

In addition to the criteria that the BBFC will use to verify the effective control of age-verification arrangements, it has provided typical examples of features that it would regard as non-compliant in the arena of age verification.

The second piece of guidance provides a non-exhaustive list of ancillary service providers that the BBFC will consider. That list is not exhaustive, to ensure that the policy remains flexible to future developments. The BBFC has published draft versions of both pieces of guidance and has run a public consultation for four weeks on their content. The draft guidance laid before the House takes account of comments received from affected companies, age-verification providers and other interested parties.

I have been clear that age verification is not a silver bullet, and we know that what we are doing is difficult. Indeed, we are the first country in the world to introduce such a measure. I am aware of the concerns expressed by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments about the drafting of the Online Pornography (Commercial Basis) Regulations 2018. I have considered its concerns carefully, and we are grateful for its work, but we do not believe that the variation in the legislation between the terms “met” and “applied” will be difficult for a court to interpret.

The Committee expressed concerns about the content threshold because it anticipates difficulty with the application and interpretation of the regulation. As I have said, the regulation will not apply in a case where it is reasonable for the age-verification regulator to assume that pornographic material makes up less than one third of the content of such a site. As stated in the BBFC guidance, the BBFC will seek to engage and work with a person or company who may be in contravention of the requirement in advance of commencing enforcement action.

I am aware that the Committee has also drawn the special attention of both Houses to these draft pieces of guidance because, in its view, they fail to contain the guidance required by section 25(1) of the 2017 Act and contain material that should not have been included. Section 3, paragraph 5, of the age-verification guidance sets out the criteria that the regulator will treat as complying with age verification. The guidance goes on in paragraph 6 to give examples of features that, in isolation, do not comply with the age-verification requirements. That approach ensures fairness and is product-neutral. Rather than recommending a particular solution, the guidance sets out principles that will encourage further innovation.

[Neil O’Brien]

I wonder whether I could press the Minister on the robustness of age verification, which is of interest to the wider debate. It seems that certain types of checks, such as those that run off a credit card, are extremely robust, but younger people do not have access to credit cards, so that becomes more difficult, although we can layer up different types of information to give a best guess. Of the long list of checks that she has mentioned, which is favourable in terms of robustness and quality?

[Margot James]

Age-verification providers will have to demonstrate that they have a foolproof system of identifying whether somebody is aged 18 or over. The sort of effective control mechanisms they are considering are credit cards, passports and driving licences—items that a lot of 18-year-olds will have at least one of. My hon. Friend rightly points out that a great deal of work is going on to improve age-verification systems. That is precisely because the sorts of items I have mentioned are, in general, only held by people who are aged 18 or over—with the exception of driving licences, which can be obtained at the age of 17.

For those reasons, it is much more difficult to ascertain how we can require age verification in other areas. For example, in the Data Protection Bill, we set the qualifying age at which someone can consent to a contract with a social media platform as 13, but it is very difficult for someone to prove that they are 13, because those items are normally held by people aged 18 or over.

[Eddie Hughes]

Should I be concerned by reports that a company called AgeID, which operates the ID verification system for Pornhub and YouPorn, is considering the idea of “porn passes”, which could be bought from a newsagent and would allow people to access porn online anonymously, so that they do not have the embarrassment of their credit cards being recorded against such a site?

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

The Minister is being very generous in taking a great many interventions, and I appreciate that she is giving thorough answers to the questions she is being asked, but we only have 58 minutes left, and many Members want to take part in the debate. She might want to bear that in mind.

[Margot James]

Thank you for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, which I will take on board, but I will just deal with the point raised by my hon. Friend. The measures that will be acceptable to the BBFC will be of greater rigour than the examples he gave. I hope that I will be able to satisfy his concerns, but I may write to him, rather than dwell at length on the important issue he raises.

I now turn to the guidance on ancillary service providers. Paragraph 3 of section 3 provides a non-exhaustive list of classes of providers that the age-verification regulator may consider as within scope. However, to ensure that this policy remains flexible for the benefit of future developments, it is necessary that this is a non-exhaustive list. Where new classes of ancillary services appear in the future, the BBFC’s guidance explains the process by which these services will be informed.

The guidance includes additional material, as this is a new policy and the regulator considered that it was important for its stakeholders that the guidance set out the wider context in which the age-verification regulator will carry out regulation. This includes valuable guidance on matters such as the BBFC’s approach, powers and material on data protection.

We are aware of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s special interest report. The Committee raised similar concerns to the JCSI—for example, on the content threshold—and the responses to the SLSC’s concerns on these points are the same as the responses we have given to the JCSI reports. However, the SLSC also suggested that the House may want to ask what action the Government will take to tackle pornographic material available on a non-commercial basis. We have already debated these issues during my remarks.

I appreciate that pornography is of course made available by means not covered by the regulations. We have already covered those issues, but they were also the subject of extensive discussion during the passage of the Digital Economy Bill. In particular, concern has been expressed about social media platforms. As I have said in response to hon. Members’ interventions, we expect those platforms to enforce their own terms and conditions and to protect children from harmful content. Indeed, the Government have been clear that online platforms must do more to protect users from such harmful content.

[Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)]

How do the Government intend to ensure that these regulations can keep up with technological advancements and developments within these markets so that the legislation and regulations this place passes are not obsolete by the time they come into force?

[Margot James]

My hon. Friend raises a very important point. The principal way in which we are future-proofing these regulations is by making the specificities that the BBFC operates by and the guidance sufficiently flexible and not too prescriptive. As technology advances, it will be able to adapt such regulations and guidance without the need for this House continually to bring in further legislation.

Before I conclude, I would add in response to my hon. Friend that, as I have said, this is not a silver bullet and it is only one of the measures we are taking. We are working on the online harms Bill to tackle issues and concerns in the area of the provision of pornography that are not captured by these regulations. I trust that my hon. Friend is reassured.

As I have said, I recognise that the age-verification regulations are not a panacea, but I am proud that we are leading the way internationally in the action we are taking to give far more protection to children and young people than is currently available.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

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[Margot James]

With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne) for his support for the regulations. I agree with him that—as I said in my opening remarks—they are a contribution to the greater security of children and young people online, but, as I think the whole House agrees, they are not a total solution.

The right hon. Gentleman asked what further steps we were taking, and asked about their timings. I reassure him that the Secretary of State will review the performance of the regulations within 12 to 18 months of their taking effect. As part of that review, and in response to the deep concern that has been expressed by many Members in all parts of the House this evening about the extreme nature of pornography, we will look at the fact that this being behind age verification should not be a licence for the production of that sort of material. The Secretary of State will also be empowered to reconsider the definitions of extreme pornography. I thank him for remaining in the Chamber throughout the debate. I am sure that he has noted the will of the House that we revisit those definitions, which do not appear to me to be fit for purpose.

A White Paper on online harms will be published early in the new year. The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of the desirability of placing a duty of care on social media platforms, which are relevant to the debate and which have a far wider impact than the issue that we are debating tonight. I reassure him that we are considering a duty of care as part of the development of that White Paper. I look forward to his further contributions on how to make such a duty effective in this context.

My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) mentioned the risk that pornographic sites would flood themselves with non-pornographic material in order to evade the scope of the regulations. We have considered that. My Department and the British Board of Film Classification have held discussions with commercial providers of pornography sites, and we have encountered a great willingness on the part of those operators to fall in line with age-verification measures. Indeed, they are setting up arrangements to do so. We consider it unlikely that sites will go to the trouble of being flooded with non-pornographic content but, if we turn out to be over-optimistic on that front, my hon. Friend can be assured that that would weigh heavily with the Secretary of State when he reviews the operation of the regulations.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, mentioned the Lords amendments that had facilitated the availability of extreme pornography involving violence, and even involving children, if generated via technology as opposed to human actors. That strikes me as a grotesque loophole. I agree with my right hon. Friend and others that Baroness Howe’s Bill, which seeks to render this activity illegal, is worthy of our consideration, and I commit the Government to considering it as a potential means of combating that sickening loophole.

The hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), who has huge expertise in this area, mentioned the predominantly coercive, violent and gendered basis of the grotesque abuse of women in much of the content, and the effect that that could have on the minds of young people as they develop into adulthood. Let me reassure her, as I reassured my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke, that we will definitely consider her comments. She made a number of worthwhile suggestions, and I will write to her, as time does not permit me to go through all of them in turn.

I am sure I was not alone in my surprise when the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) declared that the Liberal Democrats would oppose the regulations, on the broad basis that they do not go far enough. I think that the rest of the House agrees that they do not yet go far enough in tackling the problem before us. She must agree, however, that certain aspects of this are very difficult. Tackling pornographic content on a site like Twitter is very difficult, because to introduce a blanket ban on anyone under the age of 18 accessing a social media platform of that nature would have serious unintended consequences. We need to get these matters right and, rather than the Liberal Democrats just opposing these measures, they would do well to contribute to the debate. I urge the hon. Lady’s party to reconsider its position, which if unchanged will lead it into disrepute.

I am grateful for the comments from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). He reminds me of my party’s manifesto commitment to end the access of children and young people to pornography sites. I agree with him that we need to go further, but I commend these regulations to the House as a very good start and I thank hon. Members for their support this evening.