Economic Update

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

If it is £1 less in real terms, that is an interesting definition of a swingeing cut. A medium-term fiscal plan is going to be published shortly. The noble Baroness and I go back a long way and I have great respect for her, but I suggest she waits for that. I believe the noble Baroness still has interests in the lovely California, so she should understand, from her knowledge of the United States, that there are international issues at play.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that there will be real difficulty finding anything like the necessary savings by cutting public expenditure? There will have to be some increases in tax. Does he recall that, in the 1980s, my noble friend Lord Lawson aligned capital gains tax and income tax, and said there was no justification whatsoever in capital gains tax being less than income tax? Reintroducing that progressive Conservative policy would save some £14 billion. Will he commend that to the Chancellor?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not going to be drawn on anything in relation to what may be in the medium-term fiscal plan, but I am sure that the Chancellor reads your Lordships’ Hansard closely.

Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Thursday 16th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I join noble Lords in paying tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Geidt, and I welcome the changes that my noble friend referred to in his answer to my question last week. Reverting to the question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and my noble friend Lord Hailsham, can my noble friend confirm that the only reason the Prime Minister would exercise a veto on a forthcoming investigation would be reasons of national security and no other reason?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot be drawn on that. I gave an example. I also stated—the Government have stated it repeatedly—that the normal expectation would be the course that the noble Lord favours. This role has been strengthened very recently and those changes were discussed with the noble Lord, Lord Geidt. They have been agreed and found to be workable and, as I said, in the light of the events and the PACAC meeting, further careful consideration of how best to proceed will be undertaken.

Upholding Standards in Public Life

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Wednesday 8th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will respond to the recommendations made by the Committee on Standards in Public Life in its report Upholding Standards in Public Life, published on 1 November 2021; and in particular, the recommendations on the Ministerial Code and the Independent Adviser on Ministers’ Interests.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have responded to recommendations on the code. They have made important changes to strengthen the Ministerial Code and the role of the independent adviser on ministerial interests, including an enhanced process for the independent adviser to initiate investigations and new detail on proportionate sanctions for a breach of the code.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. Does he recall that in its report in November last year, the Committee on Standards in Public Life said that the

“government needs to take a more formal … approach to its own ethics obligations”?

Does he agree that recent events have underlined the importance of the Prime Minister securing the public trust expected of holders of that high office? Will he encourage the Prime Minister to respond constructively to the remaining 25 recommendations that have not been addressed? Will he ask the Prime Minister to reconsider his decision to have a veto on investigations launched by the independent adviser?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, in making the changes I have referred to, the Government carefully considered the recommendations made by the committee on those matters in the Upholding Standards in Public Life report, which was published only six months ago, alongside consulting the noble Lord, Lord Geidt. The Government are considering the other matters and will issue a response to the committee’s other recommendations in due course.

Ministerial Code

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am not certain what specifically the noble Baroness is referring to. This Government respect the judgment of the courts and that is a principle of our polity, but any Government are entitled to review the existing law and submit to Parliament proposals for changing it.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, has my noble friend read paragraph 9.1 of the Ministerial Code? It says:

“When Parliament is in session, the most important announcements of Government policy should be made in the first instance, in Parliament.”


Does he agree that in the last 20 years that paragraph has been widely overlooked? Would he agree that it should either be abolished or enforced—with Ministers who breach it losing their passports?

[Lord True (Con)]

That would be a novel sanction for Ministers; obviously I welcome the proposals made this morning on another matter. I have read that, and I personally take it very seriously. As a Minister in your Lordships’ House, I believe that the first duty is to your Lordships’ House. Like my noble friend, I am advancing in years and I remember the days when news was news and not spin disseminated aforehand. We should all aspire to respect for Parliament.

Government Departments: Non-Executive Directors

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Wednesday 8th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

On the gravamen of the noble Lord’s rather lengthy question, I repeat that I believe, and I think successive Governments have believed, that there is benefit in bringing the experience and knowledge of people from outside the Civil Service into supporting and assisting the public service. I think that that is agreed by many senior people in the Civil Service. I hope that the noble Lord is not suggesting that the system of non-executive directors be done away with.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the appointment of NEDs to government departments, but can my noble friend explain why, according to the GOV.UK website, there are seven NEDs at HMRC and eight at the Home Office, but only three at MHCLG and only two at BEIS?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the code of practice which I referred to sets out at point 3.3:

“The board should be balanced, with approximately equal numbers of ministers, senior officials and non-executive board members.”


The Home Office has eight Ministers and has appointed eight NEDs. MHCLG has five Ministers; it currently has six. There is an effort to ensure that there is a broad balance.

Constitution Inquiry

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Monday 14th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

No, my Lords, I do not agree. We currently have a constitutional settlement in which there are reserved and devolved matters. I think we all believe that devolution has benefited the United Kingdom, and the Government’s priority—as the priority of all of us should be—is to make that work in amity and with commonality, as we were reminded earlier.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

As my noble friend Lord Howell just reminded us, the Government have abandoned their manifesto commitment to set up a constitution, democracy and rights commission in the first year of this Parliament. They have instead announced that they are going to have a range of independent workstreams, to be announced in due course. Can my noble friend shed any light on what these workstreams might comprise, and whether any might involve the working of your Lordships’ House?

Size of the House of Lords

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to respond to the latest report of the Lord Speaker’s committee on the size of the House.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have of course noted the committee’s latest report. However, given retirements and other departures, some new Members are essential to keep the expertise and outlook of the Lords fresh. This will ensure that the House of Lords continues to fulfil its role in scrutinising and revising legislation while respecting the primacy of the Commons.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, good progress was made in the last Parliament in reducing the high numbers in your Lordships’ House by a combination of increased retirements by your Lordships and restraint by Theresa May. But the incentive for your Lordships to play their part is diminished if the Prime Minister does not play his. Will my noble friend encourage the Leader of the House to persuade the Prime Minister to do what the Burns committee recommended —namely, to engage positively with the House—so that we can continue to make progress towards our target of 600?

[Lord True (Con)]

The Government always seek to engage positively with the House; the House does not necessarily always engage positively with the Government. The Government did not accept the cap when it was proposed to come in by 2027 in the first report, and they do not accept it in the latest report, when it is due by 2024.

Mobile Telephones: Public Emergency Alert System

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Wednesday 21st April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I gave the noble Lord a brief response and will reiterate the point. The project is at the stage where plans for public trials are now being drawn up. We are ensuring that the timing is carefully aligned with the Covid-19 strategy, to avoid any confusion.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for pursuing with such vigour the recommendations of his report published nearly five years ago. I recall some difficult times at the Dispatch Box trying to answer his questions. Since the report, we have had 4G, and now 5G, more people have mobile phones, the terrorist threat has not gone away, and the pandemic has identified new uses for this initiative. Can my noble friend give us a target date for when it will be rolled out in this country?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot give a specific target date, for the reasons I have given. I said that we are ensuring the timing is carefully aligned with the Covid-19 strategy to avoid confusion. However, my noble friend is absolutely correct: technology advances. Our anticipation is that somewhere between 60% and 80% of phones may be contactable by this system when it comes in. As he and the noble Lord opposite said, we also have to be aware that anything which is broadcast is also able to be received by terrorists.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Report stage
Wednesday 14th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for stretching the constraints that we understand are forced on him as far as we could reasonably expect. I ask him, without trampling on the independence of the judiciary, to convey to the Court of Protection before the next meeting the strength of feeling on all sides of the House about the need to streamline, accelerate and simplify the process.

In not ruling out legislation, does he understand that, in the next Session, if I, and others who have been good enough to speak, believe that progress has not been sufficiently speedy, we will be back with the first possible legislative vehicle to press the issue again, having taken on board some of the reservations expressed during the course of this debate?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am confident that your Lordships’ Official Report is breakfast-time reading for every member of the Court of Protection, as indeed for every other citizen in this kingdom. I assure my noble friend that we will make sure that all those interested are made aware of the arguments that he and others have put before the upcoming meetings that have been referred to.

On going forward, I assure my noble friend that the Government will be happy to provide updates on progress on this matter to Parliament. We are very happy to continue the conversation with him, particularly on the issues that he has just raised.

Covid-19: May Elections

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have published a delivery plan. I am sorry that the noble Lord suggested that there was a party advantage here. Our hope is to assist all people of all parties and none to fight an election and record their democratic wishes. The Government believe that these elections can be delivered safely. We co-operate with, and will talk to, other political parties, and I can assure the House that the medical officers have advised Ministers in drawing up the delivery plan.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, when we discussed this last month, my noble friend described my contribution as “novel” and “interesting”. This was the proposition that, when council tax bills are issued next month, included should be details of how to vote by post or by proxy in order to minimise voting at polling stations. What happened to this novel suggestion?

[Lord True (Con)]

Well, I think I called it something like “ingenious”, although “novel” is a good word. It was a good suggestion. It has been passed on and I am aware that a number of local authorities have chosen various ways to promote postal voting to their electorate, for example through the canvass communications earlier this year. I hope that my noble friend’s suggestion and others will be considered positively; indeed, I always consider his suggestions positively.

Elections: May 2021

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord that clarity is important. The planning assumption in the law is that we are proceeding with these elections. I take the point that he makes about people who are shielding or unable to go to the polling station. That is why, under the current considerations, we are looking at, for example, enhanced arrangements for proxy voting for those affected by Covid. We believe, in concert with those authorities involved, that it would be possible to proceed safely.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Reid, it must be right to encourage as many people as possible to vote by post, as Covid will still be with us and many people will not have been vaccinated. When local authorities send out the council tax demand at the beginning of March, should they not include details of how to register for postal votes, and perhaps even include a form?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, characteristically, my noble friend makes an interesting and novel suggestion, which I will certainly ensure is passed on to those involved. But I repeat: we must have a high bar for even a short postponement of democracy, and any such decision would certainly never be taken lightly or rushed into. The Government will continue to work with the electoral community on the matter.

Constitution, Democracy and Human Rights Commission

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they plan to establish the Constitution, Democracy and Human Rights Commission.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain absolutely committed to looking at the broader aspects of the constitution and the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts, as pledged in our manifesto. We are taking forward the work via a range of work- streams, some of which have already been announced, such as the Independent Review of Administrative Law. Others will be announced in due course.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, our manifesto said:

“In our first year we will set up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission.”


This was confirmed on 29 January last year, when the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said:

“We will set up the commission within this Government’s first year. Further announcements will be made in due course.”—[Official Report, 29/1/20; col. 1437.]


Since then, silence. But the Library tells me that the Government have established seven other independent reviews and one public inquiry. So, for the fourth time, I ask the Government for a debate in which they set out their emerging thoughts and your Lordships set out their priorities. We can then move forward on a broad basis of support that commands public confidence.

Home Secretary: Allegations of Bullying

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Monday 2nd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly confirm that the process is independent, but I can only repeat that, to protect the interests of all involved, the Government do not comment on the specifics of this kind of ongoing process. I repeat that the Prime Minister will make any decision on the matter public once the process has concluded.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the last inquiry into the conduct of a Cabinet Minister in 2017 took one month. This has taken eight months so far, although at the beginning, Michael Gove said:

“It is vital that this investigation is concluded as quickly as possible.”


Does my noble friend agree that it is fair to neither the complainers nor the Home Secretary for this matter to last so long? Can he also confirm that the separate case being brought against the Home Office by Sir Philip Rutnam for constructive dismissal is not responsible for this delay as that case is not to be heard until September of next year?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend so far as the timing is concerned. However, it is not possible to comment on an ongoing process. What I can say in relation to the other matter he has raised is that he will know that they are separate legal proceedings and that, unfortunately, I cannot comment on ongoing legal proceedings either.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 8th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think I need to add anything, except to say that I share my noble friend’s affectionate remembrance of Viscount Whitelaw, whose general election tour I managed in 1979. I had to learn to drink quite a lot of whisky in a short time.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I can be brief. I join the Minister in thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. I suspect it is one of the more consensual debates that the House will have on the Bill. I thank noble Lords for their kind words about my role in the amendment. That approbation needs to be shared with the Minister.

Two issues arose in the debate: four months rather than three, and exceptional circumstances. It would be impossible for me to improve on the excellent explanations on both issues given by my noble friend in his reply to this debate so, without further ado, I beg to move.

House of Lords: Relocation

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Tuesday 14th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to relocate the House of Lords to York.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, noble Lords will know that, in light of the principle of exclusive cognisance, this is ultimately a decision for a sovereign Parliament.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in the words of an exasperated Lord Speaker, “Here we go again.” It is all very well to say that it is a matter for Parliament, but it is the Executive, not Parliament, that keeps this hare running. Government policy was set out in May last year:

“We agree with the Committee that the R&R programme should ensure that the Palace of Westminster is fit to serve as the home of the UK Parliament in the future.”


Has government policy, now in primary legislation, changed? Have Civil Service resources been considering moving your Lordships’ House to York? If so, who authorised it and what is the remit and the costs so far?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I can only repeat the position that I have stated: this is a matter which would, in the end, be resolved by Parliament and in Parliament. I say to my noble friend, whom I greatly respect, that, given the circumstances, I think it is reasonable for all of us to examine how every part of Parliament may find itself closer to the people.

Manifesto Commitments

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review their manifesto commitments as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the coronavirus pandemic is an unprecedented crisis. The Government have rightly focused on providing stability and support to the people, families and organisations most affected by the outbreak. However, as the Prime Minister confirmed at the end of May in his evidence to the Liaison Committee in another place, this Government are still fully committed to meeting all commitments made in the 2019 manifesto.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con) [V]]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but one of the commitments in the manifesto said:

“We will not borrow to fund day-to-day spending”.


Another promised that the national debt

“will be lower at the end of the Parliament”.

Sticking to these commitments in circumstances that no one could have foreseen, as my noble friend just said, would prevent the Government continuing on their commendable path of doing what it takes to mitigate the recession. Will my noble friend encourage the Prime Minister to modify that statement?

[Lord True]

My Lords, my noble friend recognises that we are living through un unprecedented crisis at the moment but, as he will well know, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that later this year there will be a Budget Statement, which will address a number of the concerns raised by my noble friend.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Tuesday 21st April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, further to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, he will know that a year after his original report, he produced a progress report, which set benchmarks or targets for each of the main groups, for the remaining years of the 2017 Parliament. Since then, we have had a general election. Would it not make sense for that committee to be reconvened and new benchmarks for the current Parliament to be set, so that we can see what progress is being made towards the target of 600? Do the Government accept that 600 is a realistic target to aim for?

[Lord True]

My Lords, on the first point, it is a matter for your Lordships’ House. We have had two follow-up reports from the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and the Lord Speaker, which have been very informative and helpful. As far as a specific number is concerned, the previous Prime Minister did not commit to that; nor I think will this one.

Ministerial Code

Debate between Lord Young of Cookham and Lord True

Thursday 12th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

I will not ensure that Hansard records that remark from a seated position; I would not like to think that anyone would think that of me.

With regard to reviewing the code, my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth pointed out in a very authoritative speech the progress of the code over time. It is periodically reviewed, and Mr Johnson recently published an update in August. Ultimately it is not for me to say; it is for the Prime Minister if he or she wishes to make a change, but it has recently been revised and reviewed. I believe that the Ministerial Code is strong. It is subject to review and an assistance to good government—

[Lord Young of Cookham]

There is one question that I asked, and I wonder whether the Minister could reply. When the current inquiry into the Home Secretary ends, will there be transparency about the conclusions similar to what there was in the previous inquiry that I referred to?

[Lord True]

Ah, yes, my Lords, I apologise to my noble friend. I cannot absolutely give that assurance. As he knows, Sir Alex Allan publishes an annual report on what he has done or looked into. As far as each individual case is concerned, and this is not unrelated to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, the publication of any other summary is a matter for the Prime Minister to determine at the appropriate time. I am sure that the Prime Minister will take that decision in the appropriate way at the appropriate time. At the moment, a process is under way to establish the facts.

If your Lordships will permit, I will not repeat what I have said but I will say that the Ministerial Code is not as flawed as some have argued. It is subject to great scrutiny, including in Parliament, and I believe that we should all focus on making all aspects of good government work together, both Ministers and civil servants. From those two partners comes the best outcome.