Crown Estate (Wales) Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 7th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Wigley]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I was first drawn into politics in Wales by the action of Liverpool Corporation in the late 1950s, when it purloined the Tryweryn valley in Meirionnydd, turfed out the farmers and villagers and, despite huge local and national opposition, built a reservoir, selling water at a profit to Merseyside industrial customers. That event triggered Plaid Cymru’s parliamentary breakthrough in 1966, which itself led to the SNP’s breakthrough in 1967. Britain’s 50 years of devolutionary politics grew out of the drowning of Tryweryn.

Wales has a history of exploitation of our natural resources, whether it is coal or other minerals, or our water resources, on which Birmingham and London now increasingly depend, as we heard even this morning. We likewise see the exploitation of our energy potential—wave, sea currents, estuarial waters and wind on shore and in the seas around our coast. My Plaid Cymru colleagues and I want to see the maximum possible benefit from such projects coming into the Welsh economy; we want to see that happen in a planned manner that recognises the financial benefit that should rightly come to those who invest in such projects, but also to the communities in which they are based. We want to see such potential developed in co-operation with the Welsh Government, local authorities and industrial development agencies. That means working in partnership and avoiding the totally unacceptable and unnecessary tensions and bitterness generated by the Tryweryn issue.

The Bill for which I request a Second Reading today deals with the democratic control of Wales’s natural resources. The Crown Estate assets in Wales include two-thirds of the Welsh foreshore and tidal river beds. It has control over certain ports, including the strategically important Milford Haven; it has rights over tidal streams, such as Ramsey Sound and Swnt Enlli; and it has control of over 50,000 acres of land in Wales. It is a major operator within the Welsh economy and will get even larger with the exploitation of clean energy potential off our coast.

The Bill enables the Treasury to make a scheme transferring all the existing Welsh functions of the Crown Estate commissioners to Welsh Ministers in Senedd Cymru. The Bill is an enabling one, giving the Treasury a mechanism for such a transfer. It gives it an agenda on which to work, and it is our hope that it will pursue it.

The Bill draws on the steps taken by the Conservative Government in transferring to the Scottish Parliament control over the Crown Estate in Scotland via the Scotland Act 2016 and the 2017 Crown Estate statutory transfer scheme. The powers so transferred were over property, rights and interests in land in Scotland and rights relating to the Scottish renewable energy zone. The devolved Crown Estate benefited the Scottish Government by £113 million in 2023-24. The Crown Estate is not devolved to Wales, and Senedd Cymru gets no such benefit.

The Crown Estate Bill is now progressing through the Commons. I remind the House of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, during the passage of that Bill:

“Welsh Labour’s programme for government in the Senedd includes a commitment to pursue the devolution of powers needed to help reach net zero, including management of the Crown Estate in Wales”.—[Official Report, 14/10/24; col. 16.]


The noble Lord subsequently tabled an amendment providing for the appointment of a commissioner responsible for giving the Crown Commissioners advice about Wales. Supporting that move, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, who I am glad to see in his place today, said that he had a “great deal of sympathy” with the points made in relation to devolving the Crown Estate to Wales.

There have been voices from all four mainstream political parties in Senedd Cymru and the county councils, expressing anger at the way in which the Crown Estate is treating Wales. Gwynedd Council is asked to pay the Crown Estate £160,000 annually, merely to secure access to our own shoreline. Senedd Members voted by 35 votes to 13 in support of a motion to devolve Crown Estate responsibility to Senedd Cymru. Just two weeks ago, Finance Minister Mark Drakeford stated, on the record:

“I think that the Crown Estate should be devolved to Wales, as it is to Scotland, and that would give us a better opportunity in Wales to take advantage of our natural resources”.


The advice that the proposed commissioner will give the Crown Estate will no doubt reflect the opinion of Welsh Government Ministers on the way in which Crown Estate profits arising from its activities in Wales should be used. Profits of the Crown Estate have grown substantially over recent years. Its revenue profit obtained from Wales is estimated to have increased from £9 million per annum in 2021 to £35 million per annum in 2024.

We have to estimate those figures, because the Crown Estate, incredibly, stopped publishing profit figures for Wales in 2021. Plaid MPs have been given the lame excuse that

“it is not possible to disaggregate net revenue profit attributable to Wales”.

If it was possible to disaggregate the figures up to 2021, why not now? So we are left in the position where the proposed commissioner will not be told about the profits made by the Crown Estate in Wales—or will he? Or she, indeed?

It is little wonder that Wales’s Finance Minister, Mark Drakeford, reiterated last week his call for control of the Crown Estate to be devolved to Wales. Mr Drakeford and the First Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, have long called for the Crown Estate to be devolved to Wales, but UK Ministers apparently will not listen.

In an Answer to a Question by Llinos Medi, MP for Ynys Môn, the Treasury Minister, Darren Jones MP, stated:

“The UK Government has had no discussions with the Welsh Government on devolving the Crown Estate”.


It is unacceptable that policy decisions impacting on Wales are made by UK Labour Ministers without discussing them with Welsh Government colleagues.

On Report of the Crown Estate Bill, an amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, would have required the Treasury to transfer responsibility for the management of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government. That amendment was supported by Labour, Conservative and Cross-Bench colleagues from Wales as well as Liberal Democrat and Plaid Cymru Peers. It was defeated by 147 votes to 74.

I will briefly outline the content of this Bill, which is a straightforward two-clause, four-page document. Clause 1 provides that there be inserted into the Wales Act 2017, after Section 52, new Section 52A authorising the Treasury to make a scheme transferring all the existing Welsh functions of the Crown Estate to Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers. The scheme must provide for the transfer of designated rights and liabilities of the commissioners in connection with the functions transferred. The scheme must include provision to include that any person in Crown employment is not adversely affected by the transfer. The scheme must also safeguard the interests of defence and security and matters relating to telecommunications. It must not conflict with the interest of reserved matters or with the transmission or distribution of electricity. Such a scheme may be made only with the agreement of Welsh Ministers and no statutory instrument can be made unless a draft instrument is approved by Senedd Cymru. Clause 2 deals only with the extent, commencement and Short Title.

I thank the Public Bill Office for its help in drawing up this Bill, but emphasise that any shortcomings in the Bill are mine and mine alone. Such weaknesses can be addressed in Committee if colleagues are so minded. The Bill may then perhaps progress to give Welsh MPs a chance to stand up for their colleagues in Cardiff and enable the Bill to reach the statute book. I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.

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[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and even more grateful to colleagues from all parties who have spoken in this debate. I am grateful for the support that has come from the noble Lords, Lord Murphy and Lord Anderson—albeit that he spoke earlier than he had intended, it was very welcome—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, my colleague and noble friend Lady Smith, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Humphreys, who has done so much work on this matter. I regret very much that my friend from Monmouth was unable to support the Bill, but he left a glimmer of hope that, if not now, there might be a time. Perhaps we can come back to that. With regard to the response of the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, from the Front Bench, she recognised the case but said that the Government cannot at this stage move forward with it.

With regard to getting the maximum possible benefit from the elements that Wales has—wind, water and all the rest—around its coast, there needs to be cross-government co-operation between the Government of Wales in Cardiff and the UK Government. In order to facilitate that, the Crown Estate must surely see the benefit of the positive energy that comes from maximising the output from our own resources and arrange things in a way that encourages that to happen.

I hope we will get a Second Reading today and that we can go into a meaningful Committee stage. I noted the points the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, made about that and look forward to it. These arguments will not go away. The Minister had discussions with his colleagues in Cardiff in November, I think, and I hope that he will keep in touch with them. I had a meeting a fortnight ago with our erstwhile colleague here, the First Minister of Wales. These are matters that are of concern to them, and they will arise in the election, on a new format, to the Senedd in Cardiff in less than 18 months’ time.

There is a need to get some co-ordination on this. Even if this Bill is not the vehicle, there must be some way of maximising the co-ordination and benefit that comes to Wales from the resources around our coasts. If it can be done for Scotland, surely it can be done for Wales too.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Crown Estate (Wales) Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 6th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Wilson of Sedgefield) (Lab)]

My Lords, before I start my speech, I pay tribute to our Armed Forces who participated in D-Day 81 years ago today. I will mention the 2nd Battalion of the South Wales Borderers and the Durham Light Infantry, who fought side by side on the beaches that day. We will never forget their sacrifices.

While the Government’s position was made clear on debates on this topic during the passage of the recent Crown Estate Bill, it continues to be a pleasure to speak in Committee on this Bill. We should all recognise the passion that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has shown on this issue. I prewarn noble Lords that there will be a time during my speech when the Durham accent comes into contact with the Welsh language—so just beware of that.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble Lords, Lord Harlech and Lord Moynihan, for their thoughtful contributions and accompanying amendments relating to the operational framework of any devolved Welsh Crown Estate entity. I also welcome the contributions from the noble Baronesses, Lady Harris and Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Harper.

Amendments 1 and 6 would ensure that the revenues from the Welsh Crown Estate would still be paid into the Exchequer. Amendments 2 and 8 would place parameters on borrowing. Amendment 3 would allow the Treasury to impose whatever conditions it sees fit under the scheme for ensuring the expeditious exercise of the functions of the Crown Estate in Wales. Amendment 9 would require the Secretary of State to produce a report on the effectiveness of devolving the management of the Crown Estate.

Amendments 4 and 7 would delay the transfer of the functions in respect of the Crown Estate in Wales for a period of three to seven years after the passing of this Bill, while establishing interim arrangements including requiring the Crown Estate commissioners to engage with Welsh Ministers when exercising their powers in relation to property, rights or interests in land in Wales, and rights in relation to the Welsh zone, in order to enable an orderly and planned transfer, to publish financial information about the Crown Estate in Wales and to pay the proportion of the consolidated revenue account distributable to the Consolidated Fund, which is attributable to the Welsh Crown Estate and to the Welsh Consolidated Fund.

As the House has heard previously, the Government believe that the Crown Estate as it currently operates across England, Wales and Northern Ireland provides the best outcome for Wales and the wider United Kingdom. Devolution of the Crown Estate would risk fragmenting the energy market and delay our progress towards net zero. The Crown Estate has played a critical role in positioning the United Kingdom as one of the most significant global markets for offshore wind over the past 20 years. It has also helped to position Wales at the forefront of clean energy technology and growth, with North Hoyle offshore wind farm becoming Wales’s and the United Kingdom’s first major offshore renewable energy project in 2003 during leasing round 1. Subsequent leasing rounds, including round 4, are delivering offshore wind benefits to Wales.

More recently—in fact, last month—in a boost to the United Kingdom’s clean energy transition, the Crown Estate announced that through its capacity increase programme, seven fixed-bottom offshore wind farms will increase the amount of power produced by offshore wind by adding turbines to projects already at sea. This includes Awel y Mor in north Wales. In addition, the ongoing offshore wind leasing round 5 for floating offshore wind in the Celtic Sea is expected to deliver significant jobs and supply chain benefits to local communities in Wales and the south-west.

The benefits of these projects are felt in the local communities and supply chains across Wales. For instance, the Crown Estate recently invested £1.2 million in Welsh tidal stream energy through the Morlais demonstration zone. Owned and managed by Ynys Môn social enterprise Menter Môn, the Morlais tidal scheme is set to become the largest consented tidal energy project in Europe.

The recently passed Crown Estate Act, which has broadened the scope of the Crown Estate’s investment and borrowing powers, means that it is uniquely placed to drive forward growth-generating projects in Wales. But this is not all that the new Act achieves. As noble Lords will remember, the Government were pleased to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. This was a thoughtful and positive step that will see the appointment of two additional Crown Estate commissioners, each with an additional responsibility to advise on conditions in Wales and Northern Ireland respectively. This will ensure that the board continues to work in the best interests of Wales while delivering its statutory duties as set out in legislation.

It takes time to set up new processes for such appointments. However, I would like to reassure noble Lords that the Treasury is working on plans for these appointments to ensure that they fit the public appointments recruitment process and comply with the governance code. An important feature of those appointments is that the devolved Governments reserve the right to be consulted on them.

Some noble Lords have argued that Wales would benefit financially from devolution of the Crown Estate. Let me set out why the Government do not believe this to be the case. The funds generated by the Crown Estate’s activities across the UK—more than £4 billion over the last decade—already benefit Wales in two ways. First, those Crown Estate revenues support UK Government spending on vital public services in Wales in reserved areas. Secondly, in areas which are devolved to Wales, when the UK Government fund spending in England, the Welsh Government receive funding through the Barnett formula.

Even if devolution could be achieved without risking the revenues generated in Wales, this would not automatically lead to an increase in available funding to the Wales Government. For example, in the case of Scotland, where the Crown Estate is devolved, the Scottish Government receive a block grant reduction to reflect the profits they retain from Crown Estate Scotland following its devolution.

To answer the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, in previous debates noble Lords questioned why the Crown Estate does not report on income generated in Wales. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, spoke particularly passionately—I thank him for his contributions—including today on the third amendment. Following the case put forward at Second Reading, the Crown Estate met with the noble and learned Lord to explain in more detail the challenges involved in reporting separate capital and revenue accounts according to administrative and geographical boundaries. However, the Crown Estate recognises the desire for greater understanding through a Wales lens and has committed to review reporting for Wales in its 2025-26 annual report and accounts. I thank the noble Lords from across the House for their engagement on this matter.

Finally, in response to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and just to make the position clear, the Government will continue to discuss these issues with the First Minister and the Welsh Government to ensure that Wales sees the full benefits of the Crown Estate.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all colleagues who have participated in this debate. We are in Committee and therefore I am not going to be tempted towards the general arguments that have arisen from several directions over the past hour or so. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for coming in from a distance, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for her contribution, the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, for moving the amendment, and the noble Lords, Lord Moynihan, Lord Harper, Lord Sandhurst and Lord Wilson. and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, for speaking to his amendment, and from whom we may hear more in a moment. Have I covered everybody? I hope so. I am very grateful to everyone who has participated.

It might assist colleagues, particularly those who do not live in Wales and may not keep up with every twist and turn in Welsh politics, to know that, by now, of the 22 Welsh local authorities, of a whole range of political allegiance—and some have no overall political control—21, all but one, have passed resolutions calling for the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales. This has been supported by Plaid Cymru, Labour and the Liberal Democrats, and I believe even accepted by some Conservative members and Reform UK councillors, who are only too aware of the current feeling of injustice in Wales in this regard.

Mention has been made of the windmills in the sea to the north of north Wales. Noble Lords who watched “Question Time” last night will have noted that the largest round of applause in the programme came when the suggestion was made that Wales should benefit from all those windmills that take up the horizon to the north of Llandudno, along the coast by Colwyn Bay, Prestatyn and Rhyl. There is very strong feeling about them, and that is why 21 out of 22 councils have passed resolutions in support—and I have little doubt that there is sympathy also in the 22nd, which has not.

In considering the amendments before us today, I hope we will bear these background points in mind. By all means, let us improve the Bill by debating amendments and, if appropriate, passing them on Report. But I urge that the Bill be approved by this Chamber and it would then be a matter for those in the other place to come to a resolution on it in due course, if they are prepared to make the time available, so that they can at least address the strong feelings of an overwhelming majority of Welsh councils.

I have noted the comments made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in its report last January, that the powers conferred by new Section 52A of the Wales Act 2017 should be subject to scrutiny solely by both Houses of Parliament. While I understand the logic of that viewpoint, I personally would have preferred to have an even-handed approach that enabled the Senedd to voice an opinion. However, I note that the Scottish Parliament were not afforded such an opportunity, and if that were the only issue at stake, I would of course accept an amendment to that end, to facilitate the progress of the Bill.

I will now address the first group of amendments, starting with Amendment 1, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Harlech. Amendment 1 seeks, in the words of the presenters of this amendment, to direct the moneys raised by the Crown Estate in Wales to the coffers of the Treasury, and not to the Government of Wales. This is nothing less than undermining the fundamental objective of the Bill, of course, and as such does not improve the Bill, but in effect works out as if the Bill had been refused a Second Reading.

This seems to me to be a back-door way of blocking the Bill and I would be grateful to know whether those who tabled this amendment have secured the agreement of the leader of the Welsh Conservative Party on this matter. If indeed Darren Millar MS has agreed to such a ploy, it is an issue about which the voters in Wales in various Senedd elections will certainly be aware. Let every voter be aware that the Tory party wants the resources of Wales to be put into the control of faceless Treasury mandarins rather than the elected representatives of Wales. My political friends in Wales have experienced this in both the Senedd and the National Assembly, to the dismay of elected Members of all parties.

I will give a specific example of that experience, which Wales suffered at the sticky hands of the Treasury in Whitehall. Between 2007 and 2011, the Labour-led Welsh Government, to their huge credit, attempted to avoid the fiasco of a year-end stampede to spend revenue moneys before the end of the financial year on any scheme that may be at hand, irrespective of whether such expenditure represented the best value for money. Everyone knows that this still happens the length and breadth of these islands. Despite a tightening of the rules, the Treasury has not sorted that out. So, 20 years ago, the Welsh Government devised a scheme whereby they accumulated all the year-end revenue underspends into a capital fund, which was allocated to worthwhile projects such as building schools and hospitals. Between 2007 and 2011, they accumulated some £400 million—a process that the then Labour Government at Westminster accepted.

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[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 5 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. He has made thoughtful and powerful contributions to our debate today, not least—as he has said—as a strong supporter of the union.

Amendment 5 would create a framework for powers to be granted to enter into agreement with the Crown Estate commissioners for the performance of specified matters in relation to the management or investments of the Welsh Crown Estate by Order in Council. I have listened carefully to the noble Lord’s arguments, and he has made a powerful case for his amendment. However, as I said in my more general remarks to the previous group, we have serious concerns about the direction set by this Bill. Now is not the time to take forward proposals for devolution of the Welsh Crown Estate.

That said, if this Bill is to go forward, we hope the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will listen carefully to constructive remarks made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, and my noble friends Lord Harlech, Lord Moynihan and Lord Harper.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, as I indicated when I spoke previously, I would be minded to accept this amendment if it was moved on Report.

[Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)]

My Lords, as I have already set out, the Government believe that the Crown Estate, as it currently operates across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, provides the best outcomes for Wales and the wider United Kingdom. I will not repeat the arguments I set out earlier in this debate.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, again for his considered contributions to this debate. The amendment we are debating now—Amendment 5 —would permit the Crown Estate commissioners to exercise specified management and investment functions on behalf of Welsh Ministers.

I remind the House that existing statute provides the Crown Estate with independence and autonomy to set and achieve its goals. The Government believe that the Crown Estate should continue to operate in this way—as a commercial business independent from government—because it has shown itself to be a trusted and successful organisation with a proven track record in effective management. Even if the proposal in this amendment was being suggested for the Crown Estate in its current form, it would be important to ensure that independence was preserved in respect of any functions it took on behalf of Ministers.

More broadly, as I previously set out, the Government will continue to discuss these issues with the First Minister and the Welsh Government to ensure that Wales sees the full benefits of the Crown Estate.