Spring Statement

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am not sure that I liked the last part of the noble Lord’s question there. On our relationship with the EU, I am not sure that the Spring Statement is necessarily the place in which you update every single part of the Government’s policies. The Government are engaged in a reset of our relationship with the European Union. Anyone who has heard me speak in this House will know that I have very clear views on the economic impact of the previous Government’s Brexit deal; it reduced our GDP permanently by 4%. So, when we have a conversation about growth, we have to take that into account. That is exactly why the Government are engaged in resetting our relationship with the European Union. We have set out ambitious proposals for increasing our trade relationships and improving our security co-operation with the European Union. This Chancellor was the first to address European Finance Ministers since Brexit and this Prime Minister was the first to address his European colleagues since Brexit. This is a very serious set of proposals and we are taking it forward at pace. We are ambitious, even though we know that it will take time.

The welfare reforms were set out by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in the House of Commons last week. She said that the figures were subject to final costings by the OBR. The Chancellor came to the House yesterday and updated those costings.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

We will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, next and then from my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in a Radio Wales interview this morning on yesterday’s Spring Statement, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not seem to be aware that the First Minister of Wales, Eluned Morgan, had written to her two weeks ago about the serious financial issues facing Wales and still had not had a substantive reply? The Chancellor also did not seem to be aware that housing is a devolved matter in Wales or of how many new jobs her announcement about Newport will generate. In these circumstances, will the Government appoint a Welsh MP to a ministerial role in the Treasury explicitly to deal with matters relating to Wales?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. I am not in charge of the Chancellor’s correspondence unit, so I cannot say whether that letter has been replied to. I am also not responsible for appointing MPs to ministerial positions, so I cannot answer that point either.

What I can tell the noble Lord is that, as a result of the measures announced in the Spring Statement yesterday, £58 million of additional Barnett consequentials will be provided to the devolved Governments in 2025-26, £16 million of which will go to the Welsh Government. The UK Government have already made considerable progress on growth in Wales, including by confirming the Wrexham and Flintshire investment zone and designated tax sites in both the Celtic and Anglesey freeports, and by supporting steel communities through the Port Talbot Tata Steel transition board and providing £25 million of additional funding to the Welsh Government to keep coal tips safe.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 2A. I made a speech yesterday about how important it was that this House got back to normal, listened to debates and responded in a constructive way. I thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, for the generous way in which he has responded to the amendment. I certainly would not wish to press it, having had the assurances he has given, which are very much appreciated.

This is not the occasion to make a long speech on the dangers of fish farming, but I draw attention to a report produced in recent weeks by a charity called WildFish, on the uncomfortable reality of farmed salmon. Rather than going through the content of it, I will email it to a number of colleagues who may be interested to read it. It really is quite shocking to see the damage that has been done to wild fish and the food we eat in prodigious quantities, in the form of smoked salmon and other salmon products.

I was grateful to the Minister for underlining the fact that, with wild salmon, we are dealing with an endangered species, one that is essential to the life of the river as a whole and that is an indicator of the quality of our rivers. Freshwater mussels, for example, are unable to breed because they are carried in the gills of wild salmon. This is an important part of the ecology of our rivers.

This was not given much consideration in the other place: there were about two paragraphs on something that is utterly vital to the health and well-being of our people, as well as of the Atlantic salmon, that wonderful fish. But I very much welcome what the Minister said. I hope that the Crown Estate commissioners in England will be able to lean on their colleagues north of the border and suggest to them that they might follow the excellent advice given today by the Minister. I have been puzzling about why the Minister has been so helpful and so accommodating but unable to accept this amendment. I have a feeling that somebody got on the phone from Edinburgh and talked to somebody in the Government—but I have no evidence to support that. I hope that somebody in the Crown Estate commissions south of the border will get on the phone to somebody in Edinburgh.

Some people have said, “Surely this is just about Scotland, because most of the fish farms are in Scotland”. I just point out that the salmon from English rivers have to make their way up north past these salmon farms, which infect those fish with disease and lice as a result of the way in which they are managed. This is killing and removing that beautiful wild Atlantic salmon, which used to be plentiful in English rivers as well as in Scotland.

Without taking more of the House’s time, I am most grateful to the Minister and I hope that the initiatives he has taken will help to prolong the wild Atlantic salmon for years to come.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I welcome the amendment with regard to the salmon and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on the stand that he has made and the excellent contributions he made at earlier stages on the Bill.

I too welcome the steps that the Minister is taking, but can he explain how the mechanics would work in relation to Scotland, where the Crown Estate is devolved—but also in Wales, where we still have salmon, mercifully, though in small quantities, in rivers such as the Dyfi? In Wales there is always a danger of the salmon suffering, though not as great a danger as there is in relation to fish farms in Scotland. How will the mechanics work with regard to the devolved responsibilities for wildlife and waterways but the non-devolved responsibilities when it comes to the Crown Estate? Perhaps the Minister could clarify that—but otherwise I certainly welcome this as a step in the right direction.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, I have a quick question on this. I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said. He pursued this amendment with great vigour, and we have some form of concession from the Government. Is there going to be a reporting back mechanism in place? How do we review it in maybe two or three years?

Post Office Horizon Scandal: Compensation Payments

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gustafsson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord not only for his question but for his significant contribution to the role, and I pay tribute to him for his long-standing commitment to resolving the Horizon scandal and his work within the advisory board. He is right that Sir Wyn Williams’ inquiry chose not to look at the issues concerning the audit of the Post Office. I know colleagues on the advisory board have aired these matters with the Financial Reporting Council, which is the right thing to do, and I look forward to ultimately hearing the outcome from the FRC.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to 4,500 cases having been settled, if I heard her correctly. Can she tell the House how many more cases are awaiting, and by what stage would she expect to reach, say, 90% payment? These people have been waiting for so long, and justice delayed is justice denied.

[Baroness Gustafsson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord. The volumes coming through each of the schemes are very differing. If I take the HSS, for example, which is the scheme with the most volume, a significant volume is going through that: 3,400 offers have been accepted and 3,350 claims have been paid in full. However, there are 7,082 claims out there that are still being looked at, and making sure we address them quickly is a priority of the Government. A lot of activity has been taken in that regard—for example, giving fixed-claim sums to claimants—with the goal of speeding up the process.

The noble Lord referred to the 90% target that the department applies to the schemes that are operated by the Department for Business and Trade. I note that, in particular, the GLO scheme is operating at 89%, against the target of 90%. That 90% is about claims being reviewed within 40 days of receipt. There are some ideas that we could perhaps up that target—why would it not be 100%?—but there is a balance to be struck there, because the claimants need to make sure that they are getting appropriate time to review and understand the offer being made to them. We do not want to inadvertently apply some pressure or duress for them to review those claims in a process that suits our timelines but perhaps not theirs, so, at this point, that 90% target is appropriate.

Crown Estate (Wales) Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 7th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Wigley]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I was first drawn into politics in Wales by the action of Liverpool Corporation in the late 1950s, when it purloined the Tryweryn valley in Meirionnydd, turfed out the farmers and villagers and, despite huge local and national opposition, built a reservoir, selling water at a profit to Merseyside industrial customers. That event triggered Plaid Cymru’s parliamentary breakthrough in 1966, which itself led to the SNP’s breakthrough in 1967. Britain’s 50 years of devolutionary politics grew out of the drowning of Tryweryn.

Wales has a history of exploitation of our natural resources, whether it is coal or other minerals, or our water resources, on which Birmingham and London now increasingly depend, as we heard even this morning. We likewise see the exploitation of our energy potential—wave, sea currents, estuarial waters and wind on shore and in the seas around our coast. My Plaid Cymru colleagues and I want to see the maximum possible benefit from such projects coming into the Welsh economy; we want to see that happen in a planned manner that recognises the financial benefit that should rightly come to those who invest in such projects, but also to the communities in which they are based. We want to see such potential developed in co-operation with the Welsh Government, local authorities and industrial development agencies. That means working in partnership and avoiding the totally unacceptable and unnecessary tensions and bitterness generated by the Tryweryn issue.

The Bill for which I request a Second Reading today deals with the democratic control of Wales’s natural resources. The Crown Estate assets in Wales include two-thirds of the Welsh foreshore and tidal river beds. It has control over certain ports, including the strategically important Milford Haven; it has rights over tidal streams, such as Ramsey Sound and Swnt Enlli; and it has control of over 50,000 acres of land in Wales. It is a major operator within the Welsh economy and will get even larger with the exploitation of clean energy potential off our coast.

The Bill enables the Treasury to make a scheme transferring all the existing Welsh functions of the Crown Estate commissioners to Welsh Ministers in Senedd Cymru. The Bill is an enabling one, giving the Treasury a mechanism for such a transfer. It gives it an agenda on which to work, and it is our hope that it will pursue it.

The Bill draws on the steps taken by the Conservative Government in transferring to the Scottish Parliament control over the Crown Estate in Scotland via the Scotland Act 2016 and the 2017 Crown Estate statutory transfer scheme. The powers so transferred were over property, rights and interests in land in Scotland and rights relating to the Scottish renewable energy zone. The devolved Crown Estate benefited the Scottish Government by £113 million in 2023-24. The Crown Estate is not devolved to Wales, and Senedd Cymru gets no such benefit.

The Crown Estate Bill is now progressing through the Commons. I remind the House of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, during the passage of that Bill:

“Welsh Labour’s programme for government in the Senedd includes a commitment to pursue the devolution of powers needed to help reach net zero, including management of the Crown Estate in Wales”.—[Official Report, 14/10/24; col. 16.]


The noble Lord subsequently tabled an amendment providing for the appointment of a commissioner responsible for giving the Crown Commissioners advice about Wales. Supporting that move, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, who I am glad to see in his place today, said that he had a “great deal of sympathy” with the points made in relation to devolving the Crown Estate to Wales.

There have been voices from all four mainstream political parties in Senedd Cymru and the county councils, expressing anger at the way in which the Crown Estate is treating Wales. Gwynedd Council is asked to pay the Crown Estate £160,000 annually, merely to secure access to our own shoreline. Senedd Members voted by 35 votes to 13 in support of a motion to devolve Crown Estate responsibility to Senedd Cymru. Just two weeks ago, Finance Minister Mark Drakeford stated, on the record:

“I think that the Crown Estate should be devolved to Wales, as it is to Scotland, and that would give us a better opportunity in Wales to take advantage of our natural resources”.


The advice that the proposed commissioner will give the Crown Estate will no doubt reflect the opinion of Welsh Government Ministers on the way in which Crown Estate profits arising from its activities in Wales should be used. Profits of the Crown Estate have grown substantially over recent years. Its revenue profit obtained from Wales is estimated to have increased from £9 million per annum in 2021 to £35 million per annum in 2024.

We have to estimate those figures, because the Crown Estate, incredibly, stopped publishing profit figures for Wales in 2021. Plaid MPs have been given the lame excuse that

“it is not possible to disaggregate net revenue profit attributable to Wales”.

If it was possible to disaggregate the figures up to 2021, why not now? So we are left in the position where the proposed commissioner will not be told about the profits made by the Crown Estate in Wales—or will he? Or she, indeed?

It is little wonder that Wales’s Finance Minister, Mark Drakeford, reiterated last week his call for control of the Crown Estate to be devolved to Wales. Mr Drakeford and the First Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, have long called for the Crown Estate to be devolved to Wales, but UK Ministers apparently will not listen.

In an Answer to a Question by Llinos Medi, MP for Ynys Môn, the Treasury Minister, Darren Jones MP, stated:

“The UK Government has had no discussions with the Welsh Government on devolving the Crown Estate”.


It is unacceptable that policy decisions impacting on Wales are made by UK Labour Ministers without discussing them with Welsh Government colleagues.

On Report of the Crown Estate Bill, an amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, would have required the Treasury to transfer responsibility for the management of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Welsh Government. That amendment was supported by Labour, Conservative and Cross-Bench colleagues from Wales as well as Liberal Democrat and Plaid Cymru Peers. It was defeated by 147 votes to 74.

I will briefly outline the content of this Bill, which is a straightforward two-clause, four-page document. Clause 1 provides that there be inserted into the Wales Act 2017, after Section 52, new Section 52A authorising the Treasury to make a scheme transferring all the existing Welsh functions of the Crown Estate to Welsh Ministers or a person nominated by Welsh Ministers. The scheme must provide for the transfer of designated rights and liabilities of the commissioners in connection with the functions transferred. The scheme must include provision to include that any person in Crown employment is not adversely affected by the transfer. The scheme must also safeguard the interests of defence and security and matters relating to telecommunications. It must not conflict with the interest of reserved matters or with the transmission or distribution of electricity. Such a scheme may be made only with the agreement of Welsh Ministers and no statutory instrument can be made unless a draft instrument is approved by Senedd Cymru. Clause 2 deals only with the extent, commencement and Short Title.

I thank the Public Bill Office for its help in drawing up this Bill, but emphasise that any shortcomings in the Bill are mine and mine alone. Such weaknesses can be addressed in Committee if colleagues are so minded. The Bill may then perhaps progress to give Welsh MPs a chance to stand up for their colleagues in Cardiff and enable the Bill to reach the statute book. I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response and even more grateful to colleagues from all parties who have spoken in this debate. I am grateful for the support that has come from the noble Lords, Lord Murphy and Lord Anderson—albeit that he spoke earlier than he had intended, it was very welcome—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, my colleague and noble friend Lady Smith, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Humphreys, who has done so much work on this matter. I regret very much that my friend from Monmouth was unable to support the Bill, but he left a glimmer of hope that, if not now, there might be a time. Perhaps we can come back to that. With regard to the response of the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, from the Front Bench, she recognised the case but said that the Government cannot at this stage move forward with it.

With regard to getting the maximum possible benefit from the elements that Wales has—wind, water and all the rest—around its coast, there needs to be cross-government co-operation between the Government of Wales in Cardiff and the UK Government. In order to facilitate that, the Crown Estate must surely see the benefit of the positive energy that comes from maximising the output from our own resources and arrange things in a way that encourages that to happen.

I hope we will get a Second Reading today and that we can go into a meaningful Committee stage. I noted the points the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, made about that and look forward to it. These arguments will not go away. The Minister had discussions with his colleagues in Cardiff in November, I think, and I hope that he will keep in touch with them. I had a meeting a fortnight ago with our erstwhile colleague here, the First Minister of Wales. These are matters that are of concern to them, and they will arise in the election, on a new format, to the Senedd in Cardiff in less than 18 months’ time.

There is a need to get some co-ordination on this. Even if this Bill is not the vehicle, there must be some way of maximising the co-ordination and benefit that comes to Wales from the resources around our coasts. If it can be done for Scotland, surely it can be done for Wales too.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

National Insurance: GDP

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Thursday 19th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, the Government are providing at least £600 million of new grant funding for social care in 2025-26.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, colleagues in all parts of the House will have received representations on a scheme drawn up to help disabled children get to school, which is being undermined and will probably have to close down as a result of this increase in national insurance payments. Was that sort of scheme considered by the Government, or was it not considered at all before this decision was taken?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am not aware of the specific scheme that the noble Lord raises, but I will happily look into it and I shall write to him on it.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I briefly thank the Minister and all his Bill team, and Members of the House who have taken part in the debates on this Bill and contributed to many worthwhile and positive changes to the draft legislation. From these Benches, I reiterate that we support this partnership with the Crown Estate and believe it is important as part of our energy transition.

My sincere belief is that the Bill leaves us in a stronger and better place than when it arrived. We have all worked constructively to make important amendments. I thank the Minister for his courteous engagement and positive response to the issues that noble Lords have raised with him.

The publication of the business case, largely thanks to my noble friend Lady Kramer, has meant that the memorandum of understanding has given confidence and a better understanding of the partnership with GB Energy and how it will operate in practice. That was a key element in the House’s understanding.

The Minister has spoken from the Dispatch Box on the cap on the level of borrowing. That was most welcome as there is no cap in the Bill.

I thank all those who raised the important issue of devolution of the Welsh Crown Estate. A compromise agreement from the noble Lord, Lord Hain, ensured that there were concessions and that all the commissions from the devolved regions have a place.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the Minister on working together to agree an environmental duty. I also thank the Minister for adding a duty to report on the relationship with Great British Energy. Taken together, it is extremely important that these duties are written into the Bill and included in the framework agreement, and that the Crown Estate needs to report on them. These are not constraints but real responsibilities for the Crown Estate, which will need to meet them. They are safeguards that will exist for evermore.

It was a pleasure to move the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, which might perhaps be taken up in the Commons. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, for her amendments. I am disappointed that her amendment on pre-appointment scrutiny for the chair of the Crown Estate board has not come back today, but that too may be taken up in the Commons.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for having made a bit of progress with regard to Wales in the Bill. Having the nominated person is a step in the right direction. It does not deliver everything that we and the noble Lord, Lord Hain, were pressing for, but I hope we will return to this. I have coming up for Second Reading a Private Member’s Bill on the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales, as Scotland benefits from, but I thank the Minister for a small step in the right direction.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the core objectives of this Bill were of course supported by all sides of your Lordships’ House, and there has been a bit of progress on so many fronts. There are a number of issues where I still have some concerns, and I know that there is some unease on these Benches. I hope that the Government will deliberate further.

I note the improvements relating to environmental concerns that were raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. They were somewhat addressed by the Government. I am sure that she would have liked them to go further, but it was progress none the less. I hope that the Government do not seek to reverse the changes relating to salmon that were spearheaded by my noble friend Lord Forsyth.

I remain disappointed that sensible checks on unconstrained borrowing did not make it into the Bill. They garnered significant support from these Benches, but sadly we did not get that vote over the line. I appreciate the Minister’s comments about the sale of certain assets, particularly the seabed, which all noble Lords should be concerned about.

I am grateful to the Minister, his Bill team and all noble Lords who participated on the Bill. On a personal note, after more than 3,000 spoken contributions in eight years, this is my last outing at the Dispatch Box. I look forward to serving your Lordships’ House from the Back Benches.

Wales: Public Services

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Wigley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what representations they have received from the Welsh Government concerning the Barnett Formula to fund public services in Wales.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is in regular contact with his Welsh Government counterparts on funding, including the application of the Barnett formula. He spoke to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance on the morning of the Budget. As a result of the Barnett formula, the Welsh Government are receiving at least 20% more funding per person than equivalent UK government spending in England; that translates to over £4 billion more in 2025-26. The Budget delivered the largest real-terms funding settlement to the Welsh Government since devolution.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that Wales’s Finance Minister, Mark Drakeford, wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer ahead of the Budget last week, asking for a review of the Barnett formula, specifically Wales’s comparability factor for transport funding, which has fallen from 80% in 2015 to 36% in 2021 and, following last week’s Budget, is now down to 33%? What recent discussions have the UK Government had with the Welsh Government regarding this? Can the Minister explain why the Welsh Labour Minister’s pleas for fairness in this matter have been ignored, and when will the Government do something about it?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. The Welsh Government settlement for 2025-26 is the largest in real terms of any since devolution. The Welsh Government are receiving £21 billion in 2025-26, including an additional £1.7 billion for the operation of the Barnett formula, with £1.5 billion resource spending and £250 million in capital. On the noble Lord’s second question, the Chief Secretary has a very good working relationship with the Welsh Government’s Cabinet Secretary for Finance and spoke to him on the morning of the Budget. The Chief Secretary also met the devolved government Finance Ministers in person on 3 October for the most recent finance Interministerial Standing Committee.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 5th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hain, which was ably promoted by my noble friend Lord Murphy of Torfaen. This amendment was also signed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Humphreys, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and the Minister.

I view this amendment from my noble friend Lord Hain as a step in the right direction because it enables Wales and Northern Ireland to be represented by commissioners. I said in the debate on the devolution amendments in Committee that devolution is particularly important. In the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, it should not become a patsy; it has to have something of meaning. To have a commissioner from the devolved regions means that you should have somebody there who understands the issues of the Crown Estate in those areas. In Northern Ireland there is the issue of escheat, where in some instances freehold land can become ownerless. On those occasions it is the local commissioner who will have that understanding of where those areas of land are, their impact and the need for their development for the benefit of the whole community.

I raised other issues in Committee, such as Great British Energy and the fact that in Northern Ireland there is an all-island electricity market. Can the Minister consider how that issue will be dealt with? There are also issues to do with fishing rights in the Irish Sea. Those issues all need to be investigated and supported by the commissioner who will represent Northern Ireland, as well as the renewable technologies, so that they are all in the right space in the seabed and do not interfere with fishing effort. The local person is best placed to do that.

I am very pleased that my noble friend the Minister has signed Amendment 11. Like my noble friend Lord Murphy, I think it shows that there is a determination and a willingness on the part of the Government to recognise the principle of devolution. I hope that in the fullness of time, the Government will move that little stage further and see the validity of devolution in all its holistic aspects. In the meantime, I am very happy to support Amendment 11.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and I am so glad she had the opportunity to bring in the Northern Ireland dimension, building on the comments that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, made in introducing this debate. There is a synergy of interest in getting a balanced pattern to develop.

I will speak briefly in support of Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and my noble friend Lady Smith of Llanfaes. I would have added my own name to this amendment had I not been away on family duty last week, for which I apologise. Of course, I have awaiting Second Reading a Private Member’s Bill with a similar objective to Amendment 6.

I will not detain the House by repeating the case I made at Second Reading and in Committee for the Crown Estate to be fully devolved to Wales as it is to Scotland. Let us remember that it was a Conservative Government who delivered the Act to devolve the Crown Estate to Scotland, and there is cross-party consensus among Senedd Members in Cardiff Bay, who ask, “If this is acceptable for Scotland, why on earth is it not acceptable for Wales?”.

In practical terms, the activities of the Crown Estate in Wales have mushroomed over recent years. Its financial take from Wales has grown from about £400 million a year two or three years ago to now approaching £1 billion a year. There is growing resentment that such money should flow to a body that contributes little to the Welsh public purse, and this at a time of chronic underfunding of Welsh public services.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 14th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Wigley]

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, at end insert—
“(4B) The functions of the Crown Estate in Wales may not be exercised without the consent of the Welsh Government.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment would require that the Crown Estate must receive the consent of the Welsh Government before exercising its powers in Wales.

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[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I will move Amendment 1 and speak to Amendment 23, both of which are in my name. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for adding her name to the amendment, and of course to my noble friend Lady Smith of Llanfaes, who no doubt will wish to address Amendment 21 in her name, which I support. I also support Amendment 26 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, which we will come to later.

At Second Reading, I outlined the case for the Crown Estate in Wales to be devolved as it is in Scotland. That is the subject of a Private Member’s Bill that I have awaiting a Second Reading debate. Although many of these amendments overlap with that fundamental approach, there are other amendments not going quite as far as full devolution proposals which, none the less, could help meet Welsh grievances regarding how it is widely seen that the Crown Estate, as currently administered, does not address Welsh needs or concerns, and, indeed, sucks valuable resources out of Wales.

This issue has boiled up further since Second Reading, with a number of local authorities in Wales that are really strapped for cash, as indeed local authorities are in England, protesting at the bill demands which the Crown Estate makes of them. Let us take as an example the position of my own local authority, Gwynedd Council. This year it is being asked to pay a staggering bill of £160,000 to the Crown Estate to permit access to and full use of its own land and facilities within its own territory. The council has to pay the Crown Estate an annual rent for access to the beach in Bangor, Barmouth and Llanaber and a staggering £144,000 a year in rent relating to the marina in Pwllheli. Access to beaches touches a raw nerve in Wales; when private citizens have tried to close a footpath access, they have triggered massive protest and have had to back down. Yet the Crown is allowed to tell us that we have to pay for use of our own land and our own coast in our own country and can charge for the use of that privilege with impunity.

Gwynedd Council now faces cutting back on other services to pay the Crown Estate. A motion was moved by councillor Dewi Llewelyn in full council meeting on 3 October, and the council resolved to refuse to pay this charge. The motion also called for the control of Crown Estate land and profits in Wales to be devolved to the Welsh Government. We await developments, but other councils in Wales are also now considering similar steps. No one can say that there has not been adequate warning that the Crown Estate issue in Wales is flaring up in the direction of taking the form of a Boston Tea Party.

Conservative Governments over the past 10 years have known that this issue has been festering, but while they accepted the need to make adjustments in Scotland, which led to the devolving of the Crown Estate through the Scotland Act 2016, the situation in Wales was left to fester. This situation has been strenuously criticised by the Labour Government in the Senedd. I will not repeat the lengthy quotation which I presented to the House at Second Reading, when I drew attention to the words of the then Labour Climate Change Minister, Julie James, who, in a nutshell, said that the Crown Estate in Wales should be devolved, as in Scotland, and that the current situation is “outrageous”. Both the former First Minister, Mark Drakeford, and our erstwhile colleague, the current First Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, have also called for the Crown Estate to be devolved in Wales.

In moving the first amendment, we are offering the Committee, and indeed the new Labour Government, an opportunity to take a small step towards redressing the balance. This does not provide for the full devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales, but it gives the Welsh Government a veto grip over the Crown Estate by way of the words which appear in the amendment:

“The functions of the Crown Estate in Wales may not be exercised without the consent of the Welsh Government”.


The mechanisms for granting that consent—indeed, for pinpointing the issues that would need to be addressed to secure that consent—can be open to negotiation between the Welsh Government and the Crown Estate. What this does is to establish beyond doubt that our Government in Wales will have the final word on such matters.

I will briefly mention Amendment 23, standing in my name and supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith of Llanfaes and Lady Humphreys, and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. It also provides a mechanism, short of devolving the full Crown Estate to Wales, to require the Crown Estate to pass to the Welsh Government all the net profit that it has generated from Wales; and thereby to enable the Welsh Government to pass an appropriate part of such funds to the local authorities that I mentioned to ensure that they are not out of pocket from the bills that they have to pay to the Crown Estate.

The Labour Government at Westminster should be delighted to facilitate developments provided by the amendment, which I have highlighted. If they are not, they will need to make a very persuasive case because, if these modest proposals are not acceptable, the only answer might be for the devolution—lock, stock and barrel—of the Crown Estate in Wales to Wales, as has been the case in Scotland. I welcome support for these proposals from all quarters of the Committee and I await the Minister’s response with fascination. I beg to move.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 21 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. I do so as a former Labour Secretary of State for Wales who was responsible for the 2006 devolution Act. Before that, as a Welsh Minister, I, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and others, was closely involved in winning the 1997 referendum, which brought in the 1998 devolution Act to establish the Welsh Assembly, now Senedd. I have also lived in Wales for 34 years now.

Welsh Labour’s programme for government in the Senedd includes a commitment to pursue the devolution of powers needed to help reach net zero, including management of the Crown Estate in Wales. The Crown Estate is devolved in Scotland; surely there is no reason why the same powers should not be devolved to Wales, especially by a new Westminster Labour Government committed to partnership rather than confrontation with the devolved Administrations. That was the essence of the Prime Minister’s message to the special summit of the nations and regions last Friday, and in visiting Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in July within days of moving into Downing Street.

The Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales recommended that the Crown Estate be devolved, and Welsh Labour is committed to working with UK Labour in government to implement the recommendations from that commission.

Taking control of the management of Crown Estate assets in Wales would allow the Welsh Government greater autonomy over the speed and direction of the development of Welsh-sited Crown Estate property. The Welsh Government would have the opportunity to better align the management of Crown assets in Wales with the needs of Welsh citizens. The management of Crown assets also generates significant revenue to the UK Exchequer. Devolution of the Crown Estate would better align revenues from Wales with the income available for the Welsh Government to deliver on their priorities for Welsh citizens.

Marine planning is a holistic, statutory process for managing the UK’s seas including the seabed. Aligning Welsh marine planning with seabed leasing rounds for new developments, such as renewable energy, would help to ensure joined-up and plan-led decision-making.

Currently, there are stand-alone leasing rounds for certain types of activity, such as offshore wind or marine aggregates extraction. These leasing rounds, which occur from time to time, take account of relevant government policy, but devolution of the Crown Estate to Scotland has allowed a reshaping of the process, whereby the marine planning process sets the overall policy direction with leasing rounds only progressed after it has set national strategic policy. This ensures that marine management is better joined up and delivered. Taking control of the management of the seabed would allow Welsh Government Ministers both to better implement their policy decisions and priorities for the marine area and to ensure that all relevant interests can be reflected in a way that is simply not as possible with a top-heavy, centralised and London-centric agenda.

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[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate in response to the amendments from the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Hain, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Humphreys. I hope to be able to explain the Government’s rationale for retaining the existing structure of the Crown Estate.

First, let me set out how the Crown Estate currently operates and why the Government believe this remains the best approach. The Crown Estate Act 1961 requires the Crown Estate commissioners to manage the Crown Estate as a commercial enterprise to enhance long-term value and generate profit and to do so with due regard to the requirements of good management. A key purpose of the 1961 Act was to repeal various detailed statutory provisions that had built up over 150 years previously which were hampering the effective management of the estate. By focusing the commissioners’ duties on enhancing the estate’s value and the returns generated, the commissioners have a clear objective for which they can be held to account.

While the Crown Estate has goals which under its own strategy align with wider national policy objectives, the 1961 Act provides the Crown Estate with independence and autonomy to set and achieve its goals. The Government believe that the Crown Estate should continue to operate in this way, as a commercial business independent from government, because it has shown itself to be a trusted and successful organisation, with a proven track record in effective management.

The Crown Estate is multibillion-pound public corporation, which is required to pay its profits into the UK Consolidated Fund each year, worth more than £4 billion over the past decade. Those revenues are then allocated to public service priorities by the Government, subject to the usual parliamentary controls. That is a valuable outcome, which we need to be careful not to undermine.

I turn to the amendments that deal with devolving the Crown Estate in Wales. I fully recognise that there are now two Labour Governments in the UK. While I believe that there is greater benefit for the people of Wales and the wider United Kingdom in retaining the Crown Estate’s current form, I shall of course continue to discuss these issues with the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales to ensure that Wales sees the full benefits of the Crown Estate and other forms of investment.

In response to the arguments made by noble Lords during this debate, I make a number of points. First, devolving the Crown Estate to Wales would most likely require the creation of a new entity to take on the role of the Crown Estate in Wales. This by definition would not benefit from the Crown Estate’s current substantial capability, capital and systems abilities. As my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, referred to, this would indeed further fragment the UK energy market by adding an additional entity and, as a consequence, it would risk damaging international investor confidence in UK renewables and disrupting the National Energy System Operator’s grid connectivity reform, which is taking a whole-systems approach to the planning of generation and network infrastructure. That reform aims to create a more efficient system and reduce the waiting times for generation projects to connect to the grid. The cumulative impact of these effects would likely delay the pathway to net zero by decades.

Furthermore, the Crown Estate’s marine investments are currently made on a portfolio-wide basis across England and Wales. To devolve to Wales would disrupt these existing investments, since they would need to be restructured to accommodate a Welsh-specific entity. Let me give two examples. The first is the Crown Estate’s £50 million supply chain accelerator, which will match-fund early stage projects related to offshore wind leasing round 5, and the £50 million investment in the offshore wind evidence and change programme, which brings together government bodies, the industry and key stakeholders from across the UK to better understand environmental impacts of offshore wind.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

The Minister has explained the need for a restructure. As Scotland has devolution of this dimension already, clearly it is not impossible for people to come together after devolution for Wales, too.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I shall go on to address some of those points further in my speech.

To devolve the Crown Estate at this time would also risk jeopardising the existing pipeline of offshore wind development in the Celtic Sea planned into the 2030s. The Crown Estate’s offshore wind leasing round 5 is spread across the English and Welsh administrative boundaries in the Celtic Sea. It was launched in February this year and is expected to contribute 4.5 gigawatts of total energy capacity, or enough to power 4 million homes. In addition to energy, the extensive jobs and supply-chain requirements of round 5 will also likely deliver significant benefits for Wales and the wider UK. Lumen, an advisory firm to the Crown Estate, has estimated that manufacturing, transporting and assembling the wind farms could potentially create around 5,300 jobs and create a £1.4 billion boost for the UK economy.

As I have said, devolution would also delay UK-wide grid connectivity reform. The Crown Estate is using its data and expertise as managers of the seabed to feed into the National Energy System Operator’s new strategic spatial energy plan. For Wales, the Crown Estate is working in partnership with the energy system operator to ensure that its current pipeline of Welsh projects, the biggest of which is the round 5 offshore wind opportunity in the Celtic Sea, can benefit from this co-ordinated approach to grid connectivity up front. Introducing a new entity, which would have control of assets only within Wales, into this complex operating environment, where partnerships have already been formed, would not make commercial sense.

Secondly, the Crown Estate’s assets and interests in Wales, as compared to its assets in England, are of a fundamentally smaller magnitude, which would very likely not be commercially viable if the costs were unsupported by the wider Crown Estate portfolio. The Crown Estate, in its present form, has the ability to take a longer-term approach to its investments and spread the costs of those investments across its entire portfolio. A self-contained, single entity in Wales would not have the same ability, nor would it benefit from the expertise that the Crown Estate has developed over decades in delivering offshore wind at scale. A devolved entity would be starting from scratch, midway through a multimillion-pound commercial tendering process, at a time when the Crown Estate is undertaking critical investment in the UK’s path towards net zero.

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[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am very happy to reiterate what I said: I will, of course, discuss these issues with the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales to ensure that Wales sees the full benefits of the Crown Estate and other forms of investment.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, listened to that response, as I did, with some amusement. If the line that the Minister is going to take in discussion with Welsh Ministers, who have very strong opinions on this matter, is the line that he has taken in responding to this debate, there is quite clearly not going to be a meeting of minds. We are talking about a Labour Government in Cardiff and a Labour Government in London, and this is going to be the backdrop to the politics that are running through the next few years, including the run-up to the 2026 election. I beseech the Minister to think more carefully about the way he is handling this.

The way in which the Crown Estate has been devolved in Scotland has not caused immense difficulties. They have been able to disaggregate the things that need to be disaggregated. It has been possible for the Scottish Government to get the benefits they need. The most important thing that I regard as coming from this sort of structural change is to give the Welsh Government the levers and powers—and the encouragement—to take initiatives themselves, to maximise the economic return that they can get in Wales and thereby to generate the income we need to run our government services. We do not want to be for ever and a day coming with cap in hand to the Treasury in Whitehall, begging for money.

On that point, perhaps it was the same noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, who was at the Treasury in 2010-11, when the Welsh Government had aggregated £400 million from money they had not spent on a revenue basis, in order to have a capital fund to build hospitals and schools, and the Treasury took back the whole £400 million. Being careful how they spent money at year end was a policy that the Labour Government in Wales could be proud of, but that is what the Treasury did to us. The Treasury is still, with the same game, trying to stop us taking initiatives on our own behalf to sort out our own problems.

I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, who made a persuasive argument, and I hope we return to these matters on Report. I was naturally grateful to my noble friend Baroness Smith of Llanfaes—she will possibly come in on other debates on these matters. I realise where the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, comes from on these issues. I too had a financial background; I was a financial controller in manufacturing industry and I know the responsibilities that go with finance. I also know the need to have the incentive and inducement to create the money that can then be used for the social services and all the other responsibilities of government —that is what we want to trigger and encourage in Wales.

I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for her substantial speech, which laid out her party’s view. I am glad to see that the Labour Party in the Senedd Cymru, the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru stand together on this, and, indeed, a number of Conservatives there do too, which perhaps Conservative colleagues could bear in mind.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, excellently summed up the whole thing. The problem that we have had down the years when it has come to wanting to take responsibility for doing things for ourselves rather than always going cap in hand to others to bail us out is that we are told we cannot do it, or that it will cut across the unity or the way the commercial sector sees it, et cetera. We have got to be able to stand on our own two feet, whether it is in the context of the structures of government we have now or different ones. As in the case of Scotland, we want to stand on our two feet and be able to pay our way in the world, and at least take responsibility on our own shoulders for doing that.

I take the point about Northern Ireland made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, and, indeed, Northern Ireland is mentioned in some of these amendments. There is, of course, a need for a co-ordinated approach, but that does not mean that we have all to be lumped together under one overarching structure. The whole point of devolution is to give power and responsibility to those who are best placed to make the most of it, and, in this context, to develop and use our own resources. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned the situation in Cornwall, where there are resources that can be used and maximised for, I hope, the benefit of the people of Cornwall rather than for profits to be syphoned off elsewhere. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, mentioned our experience with coal, where we were left with the coal tips, industrial disease and all the environmental problems to clear up at our own cost, but when we try to do something about it, we are told we are not capable of doing so. Quite frankly, that is not acceptable.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for painting her party’s viewpoint on a UK basis so clearly. Obviously, the response from the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, is not one I identify with; I am not entirely surprised as we have had such responses from Conservative Governments for many years. I am, however, surprised at the response from the Labour Front Bench, where we would have hoped for more.

There is currently a shortfall in the Welsh budget of some £250 million a year, which the Government are going to have to find. There is also an increasing dynamic to that figure: it will reach some £750 million by 2028. We want to be able to do something about it ourselves, so why do they not give us the tools we need to do the job when we are willing to take the responsibility to do it? I beseech the Labour Government to look at this again between now and Report. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, suggested, they should speak to colleagues in Cardiff and try to get a solution that enables us to do more to help ourselves, rather than telling us for ever and a day to come with a begging bowl and hope that somebody will bail us out. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

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There is a risk associated with Clause (3)(1) and best consideration: that it might prevent the Crown Estate from fulfilling what it might regard as its core objective, which is to secure the maintenance and enhancement of the value of the estate but with the requirements of good management. In this context, good management embraces many of the issues that no doubt we will discuss in other amendments. We will probably not amend the Bill because putting them into the statute will be onerous, but we want to be assured that the Crown Estate, by virtue of Section 1 of the 1961 Act, has all the powers—and they are not just implied, because the Minister makes it clear that it actually has the powers—to do these things, meet these obligations and secure these objectives, and that Clause (3)(1) will not prevent it from doing so.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Before I pursue the subject of the amendment, I am glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on that subject. I suggest that, if the Crown Estate has the powers, it also has the responsibilities that go with it. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, has highlighted some important responsibilities, and I suspect that it will need a lot more attention in coming months and years.

I shall speak primarily once again on issues relating to the devolved dimension. It is to better understand the financial dealings of the Crown Estate in Wales that Amendment 24 in my name and that of the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Humphreys, is on the Marshalled List. It asks for the disaggregation of the annual reporting of capital and revenue items to provide transparency in regard to the Crown Estate finances relating to Wales, England and Northern Ireland respectively. We have gone through some of the general arguments in this sphere, so I am not going to repeat them, but I stress that this is a modest proposal that surely cannot be rejected by any Government who have some sympathy with the position of the devolved Government.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

I shall make a short contribution in agreement with Amendment 22 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, and Amendment 24 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley.

When I was preparing for this debate, I looked at some figures, but they are very difficult to find. On the first group in Committee, I referred to the fact that we know that the Crown Estate has land worth more than £600 million in Wales, that it owns 65% of the coast and that it has 300,000 acres of land in Wales, but we do not know exactly how much money that raises in Wales. We know that, across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, profits have more than doubled in the past year, growing from £443 million in 2022-23 to £1.1 billion in 2023-24, but there is very little clarity about the contribution of each individual nation to the total. In the interests of transparency, I certainly support Amendment 24. On Amendment 22, I cannot understand why none of the Parliaments of the UK sends a representative to sit on the board of the commission. I support those two amendments.

Crown Estate Bill [HL]

Lord Wigley Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 2nd September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, and I agree with him that we must certainly consider the broad canvas against which this Bill comes before us. I thank the Minister for his courtesy in offering meetings last week to discuss the content of the Bill. I was not able to take advantage because of family commitments, as is obviously a problem at holiday time, but I was delighted that my noble friend Lady Smith of Llanfaes was able to go along. We both hope to play a role in further discussion of the Bill at its later stages.

I am glad that the Government are bringing forward a Crown Estate Bill, but I am less happy about its content—or, rather, what is missing from it. The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, touched on this, certainly as far as Wales is concerned. I note that the Crown Estate’s assets in Wales extend to 65% of the Welsh foreshore and tidal riverbeds, including the key port of Milford Haven, a number of marinas, 50,000 acres of common land and tidal streams such as Bardsey Sound and Ramsey Sound.

I should mention that my Private Member’s Bill, the Crown Estate (Wales) Bill, is awaiting presentation. I had resolved to put it forward several months ago. That was before I knew that there would be a new Government and that they were also minded to legislate on these matters, but that is something for another day.

I have listened carefully to the case that has been made for the government Bill, both in what it contains and in the rationale presented to the House by the Minister opening this debate. I will address what I regard as a missed opportunity in not proposing in this Bill matters that Senedd Members of all parties in Cardiff have demanded be devolved—in particular, provisions that members of the Labour Government in the Senedd have supported. This Bill has a broad Long Title:

“A Bill to amend the Crown Estate Act 1961”.


As such, it could act as a vehicle to meet those concerns. I am glad that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, referred to the concerns felt in the Senedd.

My own detailed proposals, provided for by my Private Member’s Bill, are a matter for another day, but certain aspects of them may arise at later stages on this Bill. First, there is the generality of the provisions of the Bill before us. It has been presented on the basis that there is a need to modify existing legislation to improve the effectiveness and contribution of the Crown Estate. I note in particular the important points made by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, in relation to leasehold property.

The briefing note supporting this Bill states that it will reform the management of the Crown Estate to enable its long-term strategy to support the nation. According to Clause 3, the Bill

“extends to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland”,

but Crown Estate Scotland was devolved under the Scotland Act 2016 and nothing in the Bill amends that Act. Quite clearly, in the Government’s mind it is possible for Crown Estate Scotland to be a fully devolved function, while at the same time the Bill can extend to Scotland.

The briefing note published by the Crown Estate states that it occupies a space between public and private sectors, managing a diverse portfolio stretching across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, to create lasting and shared prosperity across the nation. The map that appears on that briefing sheet shows an empty space as far as Scotland is concerned. Assuming that the Government do not intend to reverse the devolution of the Crown Estate to the Scottish Parliament, presumably there is nothing incompatible between this Bill and its interpretation by the Crown Estate. That being so, can we take it that nothing intrinsic to the Bill militates against or prevents the devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Senedd?

I understand that the Westminster Labour Party has not yet made that concession to Wales, although it has support within the Welsh Labour Party, as I shall clarify in a moment. If, during this Parliament, the UK Government respond positively to requests from their colleagues in Wales for the devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales to the Senedd, nothing in the Bill precludes that possibility. If that is so, it is all well and good and I do not demur from the general objectives of the Bill, although no doubt specific details will need to be addressed in Committee. Issues have already been highlighted by noble Lords, and no doubt others will emerge.

I turn now to the central issue, as far as I am concerned. It is of central importance to my party, Plaid Cymru, and it has been raised on many occasions in Wales over the past three decades. It is the fundamental issue that control of the Crown Estate in Wales should be in the hands of Senedd Cymru, and the financial benefits from it should aggregate to Senedd Cymru and the Welsh economy.

When the establishment of the National Assembly took place through the Government of Wales Act 1998, a considerable element in the momentum generated in support of that Act arose from a widespread perception that the resources of Wales—our coal, minerals and water resources—had historically been exploited for the benefit of others. I particularly note the drowning of the Tryweryn valley to enable Liverpool to profiteer by selling water on to industrial customers. That one Act—passed by Westminster in the face of the opposition of every Welsh MP bar one, who abstained—fired up the national movement that led to devolution.

Many people in Wales today see the insistence of politicians in Westminster that the Crown Estate in Wales remains under UK control as a re-run of the battles regarding water resources half a century ago. That is reflected in the debates in the Senedd. For example, in January 2022 the then Labour Climate Change Minister, Julie James, said of the Crown Estate that it is

“outrageous that it’s devolved to Scotland and not to us”.

Speaking in the Senedd last year, she said:

“It’s very clear from the latest annual report and accounts that the Crown Estate benefits significantly from its assets in Wales and our offshore waters. It’s also clear that the United Kingdom as a whole benefits from the income that is generated and the investment that the Crown Estate supports. But it is sadly not at all clear exactly how much Wales benefits from these incomes generated, and it’s our view that we need greater control of the Crown Estate in Wales to ensure that the scale of its activities generates much greater benefit to Wales and brings into much closer alignment the management of its assets and resources in Wales with our distinct Welsh policy”.


That was a Labour Minister in the Senedd in Cardiff. On that occasion, Labour supported Plaid Cymru’s Motion in the Senedd calling for the devolution of the Crown Estate and its assets in Wales.

In the Welsh Labour Government’s response in March this year to the recommendations of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, chaired by Archbishop Rowan Williams, they stated:

“Our longstanding position is that the Crown Estate should be devolved to Wales in line with the position in Scotland”.


That is the long-held view of the Labour Government in Cardiff.

In a Senedd debate, the Conservatives called on the Crown Estate to engage with the Welsh Government to deliver a hydrogen strategy for Wales, a Welsh national marine development plan, a blue carbon recovery plan for Wales and support for small-scale hydroelectric schemes in Wales.

The arguments for devolving Crown estates in Wales are not restricted to financial considerations but are directly relevant to the Senedd’s environmental responsibilities. In particular, there is significant further potential off the Welsh coastline to develop floating offshore wind generation of electricity, with associated on-land job opportunities that could be so valuable to the Welsh economy. This is a key dimension in Wales’s green strategy, and my noble friend Lady Smith of Llanfaes may well expand on this. In fact, there is near unanimity in the Senedd that the revenues from the Crown Estate in Wales should be directed to meet the social, economic and environmental strategies supported by parties across Wales—although there are of course differing views on the mechanics by which that should be achieved.

The reluctance of the UK Labour leadership to give any commitment to Wales in these matters during the recent general election was a cause of considerable embarrassment to the Welsh Labour Government and to their Senedd members. In 2022-23, the net profits generated by the Crown Estate from its overall activities amounted to over £440 million, some of which emanates from activities in Wales. Not a single penny stays in Wales. This is not an enormous sum, but the scope for developing economic benefit from these assets is huge. The Welsh Government want to maximize the benefit for Wales from our natural assets. To keep a stranglehold over them in the hands of the Crown is little short of exploitation, and the economic exploitation of our country carries a certain resonance in Wales. To avoid such unnecessary bitterness and hostility, as well as for better co-ordination of public policy, control over the Crown Estate in Wales should be in the hands of the Senedd, as it is in the hands of the Scottish Parliament for activities in Scotland—a step that was supported at the time by the Labour Party.

These considerations will become increasingly important. There are currently three offshore wind farms in the Welsh sector of the Irish Sea, and two more are being developed in the same area off the northern Welsh coast, with the Crown Estate expecting to place a further four gigawatts by 2035, with an additional 20 gigawatt potential thereafter. In 2023, the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee, in its second report, Floating Offshore Wind in Wales—HC 1182—stated that

“floating offshore wind in the Celtic Sea represents perhaps the single biggest investment opportunity for Wales in decades with the potential to create thousands of high-quality, long-term jobs”,

if government makes this a reality. However, it warned:

“Local supply chains did not benefit from the rollout of conventional, fixed-bottom offshore wind”,


and there have been numerous calls not to repeat this failure. That is where the role of the Welsh Government is absolutely essential.

Over the past two decades, the proportion of purchases made by government in Wales, from Wales-based suppliers, has grown from some 30% to over 50%, with a target of 70%. This means supporting more local jobs and helping local economic survival. When such matters are managed from outside Wales, we invariably see contracts being placed with suppliers outside Wales. Clearly, there has to be value for money and proper maintenance of standards, but the Senedd is quite capable of doing this. When such matters are devolved, the interests of the Welsh economy are foremost. That is why there is now a cross-party demand that these responsibilities are devolved. Please will the new Government show that they have faith in the Senedd, and in the Welsh Labour Government, and move forward with devolving the Crown Estate for this very purpose?

I ask the salient question: why was it deemed appropriate to devolve responsibility for the Crown Estate in Scotland by way of the Scotland Act 2016—an Act that had been fully supported by Labour Members in both Houses—yet it is deemed inappropriate to devolve to Wales similar responsibilities? I shall be grateful if the Minister, in responding, will address this aspect and, at the very least, undertake to discuss these issues with Eluned Morgan—the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan—and her colleagues in Cardiff.