Intelligence and Security Committee Report

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Again, the noble Lord has great insight and I am sure he would share my view that this is not about hiding but about following due process. In the Answer to the Urgent Question that I repeated, I reiterated that this is not unusual or the only report currently being considered by No. 10 and the Prime Minister. All that is being done is that due process is being followed. The Prime Minister takes his responsibility very carefully and he will give approval for publication in due course.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest, having been the deputy chairman of the JIC for three years, director of naval intelligence for three years, chief of defence intelligence for three years and Security Minister for three years. It seems that usual procedures are for the obedience of fools. This seems a slightly different report. While I would be the first to say that we must never give away any of our country’s secrets, I do not believe that in this case there is any likelihood of that. This has a nuance of something else. By holding it back, we are creating an area of uncertainty and a feeling that something is being hidden. Will the Minister go back and ask again whether the Prime Minister could read the report—I do not believe he has from what the Minister has said—and then, having read it, perhaps make a rapid decision to have it released?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord knows that I respect his insight and experience greatly, but I reassure him that more is being said about this than is warranted by the facts. Due process for a report is being followed—this is not unusual practice. As I indicated in the original Statement, the standard procedure is being followed, and the Prime Minister is giving the report due consideration. The noble Lord knows how much I respect his opinion. I agree with him about the importance of issues of national security. The Government take their responsibility seriously, as does the Prime Minister, and it is right that he gives this matter due consideration.

Queen’s Speech

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord. I think that a second referendum, if or, more likely, when it comes, should be mandatory. It should not be advisory.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

Does the noble Lord agree that to have a robust foreign policy—I agree with everything he says on those issues—we need to have some hard power? Unfortunately, successive Governments have put us in a position where we are probably unable to put blood where our mouth is or to put in sufficient power as a permanent member of the Security Council. We need to have that if we are to fulfil our proper role.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I agree entirely with the noble Lord.

Falkland Islands: Landmines

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I pay tribute to my noble friend and all those involved in this important work. Demining areas that were previously conflict zones is a key priority and we pay tribute to those who put themselves at risk for this purpose. My noble friend raises an important point about using technology. I assure him that we deploy the best technology available in the work we do internationally. I understand that, subsequent to what happened in previous years, clearing landmines in the Falkland Islands has not resulted in any significant injury to any person.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that these mines were laid in a vain attempt by the Argentinians to prevent the recapture of the islands. The recapture involved a task force of over 60 warships and 73 merchant ships. Twelve of those frigates and destroyers were either sunk or very badly damaged. Today, we have 19 frigates and destroyers. Does the Minister not agree that it is all very well ordering frigates to replace frigates one for one, but we need to increase the number of ships in our Navy to make the seas of the world safer and look after our interests worldwide?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure many are full of admiration for the noble Lord and the work he did in Her Majesty’s Navy. I agree with him on the important role that the Navy played during the Falklands crisis. I am sure my colleagues at the Ministry of Defence have noted carefully his suggestion about our current capacity. It is important that we look towards all our military across the piece, whether it is our Air Force, our Army or our Navy, to ensure they are fit for purpose for 2019 and beyond.

Iran and Gulf Security

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the fact that the Government of Iran have given 60 days’ notice that they intend to withdraw from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action and restart their nuclear weapons programme, what steps they are taking to mitigate the increased risk of conflict in the region.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we note with great concern the statement made by Iran on 8 May concerning its commitments under the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action. We are analysing the detail and are in close contact with the other parties to the deal. We urge Iran not to take further escalatory steps and to stand by its commitments. Should Iran cease meeting its nuclear commitments, there would be consequences. While Iran keeps to its commitments, so too will the United Kingdom.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. Things are extremely dangerous and it is interesting that Mike Pompeo is not going to Moscow today but has gone to Brussels to speak to EU Foreign Ministers. Our Foreign Secretary said:

“We are very worried about the risk of a conflict happening by accident and … escalation that is unintended”.


There is no doubt that there are powerful factions within Israel, Saudi Arabia and the US that feel that an attack on Iran would be a good thing, believe it or not. They think that they would very quickly be able to suppress the enemy capability and then there would be regime change. They are wrong. It would be an absolute catastrophe. The passage of any shipping through the Straits of Hormuz would be problematic for weeks, there would be an outbreak of terrorist attacks throughout the region and there would possibly be some missile attacks. Bearing that in mind, are we going to give any warning to UK citizens in the region? What is the state of preparedness of our own forces there, bearing in mind that when action is taken in response to an attack, Iran will not think that we are not involved in it? They will; therefore, we need to be ready for such a thing.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite correct that a meeting is taking place in Brussels. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is part of that meeting of the EU three, and all of us are very much committed to keeping the JCPOA alive and on the table. He is also seeking, as we have done over the last few days, continued and close contact with Secretary of State Pompeo and other leading members of the US Administration.

I also agree with the noble Lord that the last thing the region needs now is a conflict of the nature of the one that is developing on the horizon. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said that that would further destabilise the region, and I assure the noble Lord that we are working hard to ensure that that will not be the case. The noble Lord will know from his own experience that I cannot go into any detail on deployments. However, the safety and security of British citizens are of paramount importance to the United Kingdom Government and we are working to ensure that all people are informed, in particular through our various embassies in the region.

Venezuela: Russian Troops

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, diplomacy is one Britain’s great strengths on the world stage, and I assure the noble Lord of the strength of our diplomacy, both in the region and with European partners. Indeed, 24 EU member states have now recognised Juan Guaidó as the interim President. I believe we need to pursue that particular avenue to ensure international pressure continues. We are looking at broadening sanctions on Venezuela but at the same time ensuring humanitarian aid, both food and medical, is delivered, which the people of Venezuela are in dire need of.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Venezuela owes Russia $3.1 billion in payments for military and other equipment, and it owes Rosneft $2 billion, so that is $5 billion altogether. Clearly, one can understand the Russian interest in this, but we must have been aware that Russia was going to deploy troops, yet it seems to have gone under the radar. In that context, can I ask the Minister how concerned we are with the huge Chinese investment and the pull that they are beginning to put on to Venezuela in the same way?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord will be aware, both Russia and China continue to recognise the Maduro regime. In terms of the justification for what Russia has done, as I have alluded to, Russia has a long-standing commitment to sharing military deployments and is claiming that this is part of that. We recognise that the situation in Venezuela tells a different story, and that is why it is important that we increase our diplomatic efforts, broaden international alliances in the region through the Lima Group and add our efforts to ensuring that we isolate those who are responsible. To Maduro there is a simple message: “Step aside. The people of Venezuela demand it; the people of the world demand it”. I hope our Russian and Chinese colleagues are listening very carefully. We continue to work bilaterally and through international organisations to deliver just that message.

Yemen: Women and Girls

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness will be aware that the United Kingdom adopts the very stringent system of rules that exists across the EU, as well as a national code, on any military assistance. We remind any country that we sell arms to or give support to of those rules, and I assure her that we review this regularly in the context of the conflict in Yemen. She is right to raise these issues, but our military assistance—for example, the support we provide to Saudi Arabia—is specifically about training, particularly on the important issue of international humanitarian law. We take every opportunity to remind all our allies of those important priorities.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, that training does not seem to be working. We have people in Saudi Arabia advising how to use the weapons we have sold it, and we have just released statistics showing how amazingly careful the Royal Air Force has been to not kill civilians when using its weapons, yet that is not happening in Yemen. Why are we not teaching people how to use these things without causing mass civilian casualties?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord will know from his own experience that teaching does not happen in one day; it is a consistent effort over a period of time. It is important to know that, in any intervention around the world where the United Kingdom gives support through military assistance and training in international humanitarian law, anyone who engages requires that training over a period of time. I take on board the challenge he has presented, but also the tragic nature of the Yemen conflict. That is why the Foreign Secretary has again pushed for a political settlement; that is the only way to prevent the civilian casualties we have seen over a period of time and their impact on communities and on women and girls. That is why he was in the region pushing for that, not just with Yemen but with the likes of the Emirates and the Saudi Government as well.

Nord Stream 2 Pipeline

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with my noble friend. I reassure him that we are working with Poland. He is right that it has reservations about this project, as does Denmark. We will continue to work with European partners in this respect. The work that has been done on the gas directive allows greater regulation of supply. As a broader issue, we are concerned. From a UK perspective, this does not impact our energy supply in the way it does Europe’s. Gas supplied from Russia is about 2% of the UK’s overall energy mix. However, the concern is wider for Europe, particularly for Ukraine, and we will continue to work with like-minded partners, including Denmark and Poland.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, in the past couple of years there was agreement within NATO and the EU that we would cut reliance on Russian gas. In the debates we have with Germany, how does it justify the fact that it will increase its reliance on Russian gas? As the noble Lord said, this is very much targeted at Ukraine. There are real issues here, and it is contrary to what has been agreed in NATO and the EU.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with the noble Lord, as I agree with my noble friend. It is quite clear from the UK’s perspective. We are so against this project for the very reasons the noble Lord articulates.

Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the impact on this country of the United States withdrawing from the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we are aware of the statements made by the United States on the future of the INF treaty. However, it is important to recognise that the United States has not formally withdrawn from the treaty. While the treaty remains in force the United Kingdom will continue to support it and, in particular, to press Russia to return to full and verifiable compliance. We, of course, want to see the treaty continue to stand, but that requires all parties to abide by it and at the moment one side is in violation. Russia needs to respect its obligations as this treaty has made a valuable contribution to European security for over 30 years.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the greatest existential threat to our people and nation is a miscalculation during a period of increasing tension, leading to an ill-thought-through use of a nuclear weapon. Indeed, Putin’s strategy of de-escalation posits early use of a nuclear weapon. The repudiation of the INF treaty—and let us face it, these weapons can hit us all in Europe but they cannot hit America—and the breakdown of US/Russian relations bring this existential threat to our nation, the only existential threat that is there, much closer. I think all of us should be extremely concerned.

Will we bend every sinew to try to get Trump and Putin in the margins of the number of meetings that they are having over the next few months to relook at a whole raft of limitation treaties and possibly renegotiate an intermediate-range treaty, a ballistic treaty and also an arms reduction set of treaties? Only in that way will we ease back on this risk of an existential threat to our people.

Jamal Khashoggi

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

To take my noble friend’s second point first, I believe that the bilateral trade between our Governments stands at £9 billion. However, as he says, on the overall position of the UK and our trading relationships, notwithstanding the nature of the case we are discussing, it is important that we have a diversified view.

On his point about this never happening again, he is right to raise the tragic consequences of this. We repeatedly return to the issue of journalists and press freedom in your Lordships’ House, in the context not just of Saudi Arabia but of other countries as well. The important point in this case is what further steps we can take in this respect. The international condemnation which has followed this crime is clear for all to see. On the other steps we are taking that I can share with my noble friend, I mentioned earlier my capacity as Human Rights Minister, and we are reviewing the exact statements we will make and the questions we will raise in the universal periodic review of Saudi Arabia, which is due on 5 November in Geneva. I assure my noble friend that as a priority, we will raise with the Saudis in international fora the issue of press freedom and the freedom of journalists to criticise a country and an Administration. As to whether we can ensure that this will never happen again, that would be a tall claim for anyone to make. The tragic nature of these issues means that we must be strong in our condemnation, and when the full facts are presented, we must act accordingly.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that we have some of the strictest rules about selling arms to any nations that apply to any countries in the world. Germany’s virtue signalling is all very good, but it would be selling almost no arms there anyway, and when one looks at some of the other sales they have made to other places, I would not get too excited about the virtue signalling.

This is a very difficult area. We have to be wary once we have made a decision to sell arms, having gone through all the hoops, about starting to tell people how they should use them. However, it is very important that there is transparency about exactly what we are doing in terms of support and training for Saudi Arabia. We have been rather secretive about this—for example, the Paras teaching them how to use mortars and so on. Does the Minister agree that we should be very open about exactly what we provide and then we can look at this in the round and make some sensible decisions in due course, rather than knee-jerk ones, about exactly how we go?

There is no doubt that this was a horrible crime. I have no doubt at all that there was advice from the very highest levels in Saudi Arabia. Indeed, it has form on this, as has been mentioned before. But we need to be really careful not to make knee-jerk reactions and to be transparent on what we actually provide.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks from wide experience in this respect and I agree with him on principle. I fully support his position but what Germany exports and what is does is really a matter for the German Chancellor and Government. I have looked at the structure and support of arms sales. This was put in place by the very respected Robin Cook when he was Foreign Secretary. There are quite strict procedures in place to ensure that these weapons comply with international humanitarian law.

Notwithstanding that, the noble Lord will also be aware that our export licensing system also builds in flexibility to allow us to respond quickly to changing circumstances. Since 2015 we have suspended more than 331 licences. This is not a case of once agreed, never suspended. I agree with the noble Lord that we must be very careful to ensure that our response is considered, clear and unequivocal. We should act only, I stress again, once the full facts have been presented. As I said, we await the full facts from the Turkish investigation.

Syria

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the prospects for a negotiated end to the civil war in Syria that does not involve President Assad.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the lack of progress made towards a negotiated settlement in Syria is deeply disappointing. While the opposition has confirmed its readiness for negotiations without preconditions, the Syrian regime has pursued its brutal military campaign and refused to engage seriously in talks. Only a political settlement can bring stability and peace to Syria. The United Kingdom will be pragmatic about the nature of that settlement and we will continue to support the UN process to achieve it.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Our Syria strategy—if we actually have one—is prolonging the civil war, when ending the civil war is the best thing for the poor, benighted people of that country. Our focus seems to have been, from day one, regime change: presumably, not to hand over to the hotchpotch of opposition forces, many of which are worse than Daesh. Our lack of a clear vision has resulted in Russia being the arbiter, massive Iranian participation, Hezbollah, the raising of Kurdish expectations and consequent problems with the Turks. Surely, our aim must now be to put a stop to the war as quickly as possible, accepting that the loathsome Assad is inevitably part of the equation.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that our aim must be to end this civil war as soon as possible. However, I assure all noble Lords that the Government have been and continue to be committed to the UN Geneva process, because it brings together all the Syrian parties required to ensure the stable settlement that we all desire. If we look at what Staffan de Mistura is actually presenting, a whole constitutional commission is proposed, which, yes, includes members of the Assad regime being present. The only reason why that meeting has not been held in Geneva since January is that the Assad regime refuses to engage. We implore Russia, and indeed Iran, to put on the utmost pressure to ensure that the regime takes part in those talks so we can achieve the lasting settlement that I know the noble Lord and all of us desire.