Care Bill [HL]

Lord Warner Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (Lab)]

My Lords, as the self-appointed keeper to this House of the Dilnot tablets, I support Amendments 55 and 56, spoken to so ably by my two noble friends. Turning to Amendment 55, in framing our recommendations in our report, it was never our intention to impose a new set of rigidities in place of the old set of rigidities. It is important that the new system retains as much flexibility as possible. It is worth thinking about what lies behind much of the argumentation in our report and the new architecture that that report proposes. It is all about people, in as fair, orderly and manageable a way as possible, making contributions from their own resources to the rising costs of adult social care as we cope with, live with and adapt to an ageing population. Given the messiness of the present arrangements for top-ups, it would be perverse not to create the maximum flexibility for people to top up, particularly where these top-ups relate to their ability to stay in a home where they and their family have been very comfortable with the arrangements. Preventing such top-ups would be a truly perverse way of implementing the Dilnot architecture. We need a more flexible way of coping with this. Therefore I support my noble friend Lord Lipsey’s set of amendments.

On Amendment 56, my noble friend has a very strong point. I say this as someone who spent 10 years wrestling with means tests as a senior civil servant coping with social security. In those 10 years, numerous were the times when we had to cope with unforeseen consequences of what we thought were well designed social policy changes, but which turned out not quite to work when subjected to the scrutiny of the real world across a large population. I congratulate the Government on taking our report and turning it into a largely workable—we have a few doubts, but largely workable—set of arrangements that can be brought into operation quickly. However it would be very optimistic to think that there would be no unforeseen consequences—wrinkles, if I may use the word—which needed to be looked at, in particular in the areas of means-testing and the working of the cap. I emphasise that this is not a job application from the Dilnot commission to make, like Frank Sinatra, another return appearance, but we do need some kind of credible, independent body to take a look at this.

I would just gently remind the noble Earl that, at the end of our report, on page 69, we talked about some of these potential wrinkles, including the potential further changes in and around means-testing, which we did not have time to wrestle with but which we just flagged up for the Government. I will go not into the details but just the headlines. Under “Consistent treatment of housing assets”, we noted the way they are treated differently across the social care means test in terms of domiciliary and residential care—they are not treated on the same basis. There is also the issue of whether the means-test taper actually disincentivises savings and the issue of consistency between the way people in residential and nursing care, where it is not continuing care, have to meet general living costs but do not have to meet them where it is continuing care. We know that there are already some potential anomalies in the way that the new architecture will interact with some of those areas. We flagged that up in the report.

My noble friend has argued for some kind of independent advisory committee. He may not altogether thank me for raising some of these potential further changes but they are issues that have to be wrestled with. The new set of arrangements will throw up their own issues, which will also have to be wrestled with. Some kind of independent advisory committee, looking at the way in which the new scheme has worked and has bedded down, particularly in the area of the means test, would be a valuable contribution. I do not think it is a partisan issue. It would be welcomed across the parties and I hope that the Minister can look a bit more favourably on my noble friend’s amendment.

[Baroness Greengross (CB)]

My Lords, first, I add my voice in support of Amendment 55, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. We have not fully taken into account the impact that the Bill will have, when it becomes an Act and is brought into being, on the many people who are now in care homes and where the funding of those homes will suddenly become much more public. Everybody will report to the local authority to get on the meter and the extent of people’s self-funding will become better known. There will be a sort of explosion if we do not get this right and do not allow people to make top-ups. What are we going to do: assume that some of these people will be moved from the care home that they are in and where they are, we hope, happy to another care home because there is inflexibility with the top-up system? That would be really cruel and I hope that we can get as much flexibility and remove as many restrictions on people as we can.

Several cases have been brought to my attention of people who are already in a care home running out of money. They, or their relatives, cannot afford the whole amount but want to be able to top up the local authority amount, which, at the moment, nobody is fully aware of. As this is all going to become much more public knowledge, it is important to have as much flexibility as possible. I hope the Minister will have another look at this.

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[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I assure the House that the Government are in agreement with the intentions behind the amendment tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Patel. We are working hard to deliver our shared objective of improving care for people approaching the end of their lives. It is in that context that I shall move government Amendment 57.

On the issue of treating the assessment of terminally ill people as urgent, I fully recognise noble Lords’ concerns. With that in view, I have tabled an amendment to make it explicit that the end of life is an example of when local authorities may treat cases as urgent. We do not believe that it would be right to require local authorities to treat all cases in this way—circumstances have to dictate the approach taken—but we agree that clarity around end-of-life cases as examples of urgent situations for the purposes of Clause 19 may provide a useful indication to improve practice. I shall not anticipate noble Lords’ remarks in support of their amendments, so at this stage I beg to move.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, while I welcome Amendment 57, I want to set out the case for the Minister going a good deal further. Amendment 137 follows the discussion in Committee of amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and myself. We have come back with an alternative amendment, which has also been signed by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. We have done this in consultation with voluntary organisations over the summer, and the wording of Amendment 137 reflects those discussions. To summarise, the amendment would enable the Secretary of State, after discussion, to make regulations that did three things: first, allow people to have their preference for place of death recorded by local health and social care services and for that preference to be implemented wherever practicable; secondly, have their care and support needs and those of carers treated as urgent in assessing needs—and we think, reasonably, that Amendment 57 deals with that; and, thirdly, exempt terminally ill patients from adult social care charges.

Since Committee the Government have brought forward Amendment 57 and, as I have said, I think that it meets many of our concerns about urgent assessment at the end of life. It has certainly had the effect of diluting enthusiasm in some parts of the voluntary sector for a more wide-ranging amendment on end-of-life choice, and I slightly backhandedly congratulate the Minister and his civil servants on achieving that. However, I would still like to have another go at trying to convince the Government, and possibly some members of my own Front Bench, that we should be a bit more ambitious.

Around half a million people die each year in England, about two-thirds of them over the age of 75. A century ago most of us would have died in our own homes. Today, most will die in hospital. The latest figures show that in April 2012, about 42% of people died at home or in a care home. This is an improvement from 38% four years previously, but on present trends it will be at least the end of this decade before half of deaths occur in the place of usual residence. These figures of improvement at the national level, however, conceal considerable regional and local variations.

If you live in the south-west, with 48% of deaths occurring in the place of usual residence, you have more choice than those of us living in London, where the percentage drops to 35%. Of course, as a Londoner I think there are many benefits of living in London, but choosing where I die is not likely to be one of them. There is an even wider variation between local authority areas. The great majority of us want to die at home or the place we normally live rather than, I suggest, the hectic and somewhat impersonal environment of an acute hospital ward. Perversely, we end up not only dying not only in the place where we least want to be but also in the most expensive place.

Marie Curie research has shown that a week of palliative care in the community costs about £1,000 a week, whereas a week of hospital in-patient specialist palliative care costs virtually £3,000 a week. The National End of Life Care Programme shows an estimated potential net saving of £958 per person if you die in the community rather than in hospital. Polling for Macmillan has shown that eight out of 10 health and social care professionals agree that community-based end-of-life care would save money. On top of this, nine out of 10 MPs think their constituents should have the choice to die at home. What is not to like about the first prong of Amendment 137?

I am not trying to dragoon people into dying outside hospital to save money. I want people to have as good and dignified a death as possible, with their friends and families around them. That is more likely to be achieved if they have a right to register their preference for dying at home or their place of normal residence. This would mean fewer people dying in hospital and it would also reduce pressure on A&E departments and acute hospital beds. I suggest that this is a not inconsiderable benefit—as Sir Humphrey would have said—in terms of the cost savings that could arise from allowing people to express their preferences on their right to die at home.

I accept that at this point it may be rushing our fences a bit to pay for exempting terminally-ill patients from local authority care charges. We need some detailed costings and possibly—I suspect the Minister will say this—we need to wait to hear what comes out of the pilot schemes in this area. However, we would also welcome having more information from the Minister on the progress being made in those pilots.

Accepting the first part of Amendment 137 would lay down a clear marker that Parliament wants government to move in the direction that most people want: which is the right to choose to die at home or their place of normal residence wherever practicable. This amendment gives the Government plenty of time to consult on all the detailed arrangements. It does not require those regulations to be made by any particular time and it gives the Government a lot of freedom about what the nature of those regulations might be. We should not miss the chance of this Bill being before Parliament to move in this area and put this change on the statute book. I hope the Minister will respond favourably and be prepared to entertain at Third Reading an amendment of the kind set out in the first prong of Amendment 137. I would certainly be happy—as I am sure my colleagues would—to discuss this further with him.

[Baroness Greengross (CB)]

I support the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, about this amendment. We know that the things people say they dread as their final days approach are loss of dignity and loss of respect, and we hear far too much about poor care at the end of life. Very often, it is poor care because people are not in the place they would like to be. We also know that the number of carers identified and signposted by the NHS to the enhanced support is not widely known. We know that much more needs to be done to draw together all the various approaches—I am involved in one of those approaches at the moment, looking with a group of experts at how to improve end-of-life care with doctors, professionals in end-of-life care and lawyers who deal with patients’ wishes. There is still a lot be looked at and brought together, and this Bill gives us a good chance of getting this right, or at least much nearer to being right than it is at the moment.

As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, mentioned, the coalition of charities has also suggested that end-of-life care should be free at the point of delivery. I know that this requires much more consideration—the noble Lord talked about that. I want to concentrate on hoping that this will be considered and that services to dying people and possible loss of dignity and respect will get a far higher profile as things that need urgent attention. Terminally ill people should have their preferred place of death recorded by local health and social care services. That preference needs to be implemented wherever it is practical. People must have their care and support needs and those of their carers treated as urgent by the local authority responsible for assessing those needs.

For people who are dying, every day is precious. They cannot wait while the bureaucratic wheels grind slowly along, and not always in their favour. I support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Warner.

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Amendment 57 agreed.

[Lord Warner]

I thought I had a right to respond to the noble Earl on Amendment 137.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn) (Con)]

It was the noble Earl’s amendment. Can we go back to it? We cannot.

Clause 20: Duty and power to meet a carer’s needs for support

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, this is an important subject. Clause 34 provides for deferred payment agreements and loans. In such an agreement,

“the charges or loan advanced is repaid by the adult or from their estate at a later specified date, or on the happening of a specified event, such as the sale of property. The debt is normally secured against the person’s property to ensure repayment”.

I say at once that we welcome the support to be given to such a scheme. However, I hope that the noble Earl will be able to respond to my noble friend on the point that he raised. His essential argument is that the scheme as originally recommended has been severely restricted, as indicated in paragraph 150 of the consultation, whereby a person is eligible only if other assets are less than the £23,250 limit. Can the noble Earl confirm that figure? If so, can he estimate for the House how many people he thinks are likely to want to use the scheme? The 40,000 figure seems even more mythical if people’s other assets have to be reduced to such a level. We need to clear up that important point either today or, if the Minister is unable to do so, perhaps on Third Reading.

I wish to speak now to my Amendment 63. One worry which we discussed in Committee concerns how local authorities are to run these schemes, and that worry remains. My noble friend Lord Lipsey spoke in Committee of his concerns about the creation of administrative difficulties for local authorities because each local authority would have to design and implement its own scheme. There would be a risk not only that the amount of energy which each authority had to expend would be extremely wasteful but that some very poor quality schemes could be developed. My noble friend Lord Warner, when discussing the balance of arguments between a national scheme or local schemes, said:

“The worst of all worlds would be not to take hold of this issue and leave it to a marketplace of 152 different bodies”—

in other words, local authorities—

“without much guidance or assistance with compatibility of IT and issues of that kind”.—[Official Report, 22/7/13; col. 1065.]

In Committee the noble Earl seemed a bit reluctant to accept the need for national direction in this area. The fact is that only a minority of local authorities currently operate deferred payment schemes. The local authorities’ responsibilities that we have discussed in relation to the Bill are many and extensive, and I shall not go through the list again. There is no doubt whatever that there are worries about whether local authorities really have the capacity to implement the legislation as noble Lords require. Instead of these 152 local authorities having all to develop their own deferred payment schemes, surely there is a persuasive case for a model scheme to be drawn up based on the experience of local authorities which are already operating a scheme but which are in a minority at the moment.

I have little doubt that a model scheme would save money by reducing the work that an individual local authority would have to do. The scheme would be informed by best practice and individual decisions would still be left to individual local authorities because they would be given a model scheme to which they could make adjustments. I should have thought that that would help ensure that the use of deferred payments would be developed and expanded as effectively as possible. I very much hope that the noble Earl will be able to agree to this amendment.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I rise again as the keeper of the Dilnot tablets on the subject of deferred payments. If we had intended that access to a deferred payment scheme was to be limited to people with assets of less than £23,000, we would have said so in our report. That was not what we intended. I commend the report to the noble Lord, and I hope the House will forgive me if I just cite a few bits of it.

I refer the noble Lord to page 41 of our report. We said:

“Evidence submitted to the Commission suggests that the availability and use of deferred payment schemes is patchy”,

and we went on to explain that. The government consultation document suggests that it will continue to be pretty patchy as well because very few people are likely to come forward for this. We said—and this was a recommendation:

“At a minimum, the Commission recommends an extension to the current deferred payment scheme so that it is a full, universal offer across the country.”

That is what we said.

The Government have given the impression in various interviews—I have gone head to head with government spokesmen about this on a number of programmes—that they were going to support an extended deferred payment scheme and that it would be pretty much similar across the country. If you had a deferred payment scheme in Cumberland, it would look remarkably like a deferred payment scheme in Cornwall. It seems that we are getting into a position where none of this will be the case. It is pretty rough on the public if the Government and their spokesmen are giving the impression that they are implementing the Dilnot recommendations on deferred payment schemes when they are palpably not doing so under the present set of proposals as I understand them.

It is not too late for the sinner to repent—the consultation period is open until later this month. However, it is necessary to revisit this in terms of what government policy is on this particular issue, both in terms of access to a deferred payment scheme and on the issue of a model scheme. The two go hand in hand. It is no good having a model scheme if it is a model scheme for a handful of cases in different parts of the country. We need a model scheme that is actually available so that people who want to cope with the issue of how they fund their care can access a deferred payment scheme. It is always a risk when you are on a committee such as the Dilnot committee that, quietly and unobtrusively, the bureaucracies will nibble away at well intentioned recommendations. Some of us have had this experience ourselves, and some of us have done a bit of nibbling as well from time to time as civil servants, so we recognise nibbling when it is going on. We are in that position here.

It is down to the Minister to start some discussions about this issue, not to leave things to the marketplace, and not to give the public impression that there is going to be a widely available deferred payments scheme when, in fact, it is going to be available only to a fairly limited number of people.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I do not understand why it is necessary to have any kind of limit in relation to this matter so long as there is sufficient security to allow the deferred payment to be feasible from the point of view of the Government. The proposition that the deferred payment scheme should be limited by the amount of assets a person has strikes me as rather unnecessary. So far as a model scheme is concerned, I would have thought that there is a lot to be said for having a form of document which is universal. There would of course be the possibility of different particular provisions relating to particular cases, but the central core of a deferred payment agreement could be put in a form of universal application.

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[Lord Warner]

My Lords, perhaps it would help the House if the character from Hogwarts actually explained what was going on in our minds when we made the recommendation. I shall quote a sentence from the report:

“In making this change, we believe it would be sensible for local authorities to be allowed to charge interest to recover their costs, to make the scheme cost neutral”.

We were not trying to second-guess how many applicants there would be, but it would be sensible to set up a scheme that worked in a way which did not actually cause a charge to be made on the Exchequer for the running of the scheme.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, perhaps I may deal first with the initial point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, about the figure that I quoted in Committee. He asked whether I had in fact meant to say that up to 40,000 people might have to sell their homes every year. The answer is that I should have said “up to 40,000”. I am afraid that there is a conscious element of vagueness in the figure because there is no one comprehensive source to provide information about what the precise figure actually is. We have arrived at a figure of up to 40,000 as the best estimate. I hope and believe that over the summer my officials provided the noble Lord with a breakdown on how we reached that figure and that he has found the information useful. The point of quoting the figure is that we believe that it is around the number of people who could benefit from the arrangements we are discussing. I apologise if I misled the Committee and the House in stating a figure that sounded precise when I should have been a little more circumspect.

The second issue raised by the noble Lord was about the deferred payment scheme and his perception that the Government have effectively emasculated it. I do not share that perception. There will be some circumstances in which local authorities must offer a deferred payment, and that is when the Bill specifies that the local authority would be under a duty to offer a deferred payment. We are consulting on the eligibility criteria for when people must be offered a deferred payment, which is where the figure of £23,250 is used. The Bill has an additional power for local authorities to offer deferred payments more widely, and we are seeking views on this through the consultation. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay asked why we need limits at all. It is our policy intent that deferred payments will be available more widely and consistently than they currently are, which I think is what the Dilnot commission intended us to do. We need to ensure, however—

[Lord Warner]

Perhaps I may correct the noble Earl. We actually referred to a universal and standard scheme. We assumed that such a scheme would be wider, but we were looking for a standard scheme that would make this widely available. That is the part which is missing from the Government’s reassurances.

[Earl Howe]

I shall come on to the standard scheme proposal in a moment. We need to ensure that this arrangement is rolled out in a way that is financially sustainable for the local authority in each case. We will be supporting the implementation of the capped costs system and an extension of deferred payments with £335 million, which should enable this to happen.

I shall move on to the amendments themselves. I hope that the House will forgive me if I do not rehearse at length the same points that I made about financial advice last week, but I should like to take a moment to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, on the specifics of his proposal. It is imperative that everyone has access to sound, reliable information and advice while making decisions about their care to ensure that any option they choose makes good financial sense for them and is sustainable in the long term. It is clear that local authorities have a central role to play in ensuring that their local populations are aware of the range of information and advice, both regulated and non-regulated, that is available to them and that they know how to access it. Last Wednesday, your Lordships accepted my Amendments 16 and 17 which clarify this. The noble Lord’s amendment would underscore the need to make sure that everyone who decides to take out a deferred payment agreement reaches that decision in a considered and informed manner. I agree that that should be the case. All too often, people do not plan ahead for the possibility of needing care and so can find themselves having to make important and lasting financial decisions in a moment of crisis.

Deferred payment agreements can be used to reduce some of this urgency and ought to be accessible to ensure that they provide the peace of mind that they are intended to. For this reason I would hesitate to make the process through which a person can access a deferred payment too onerous. We are currently consulting on the information and advice a person should receive before taking out a deferred payment agreement. We will listen carefully to what is said and we will use this to inform the approach that should be taken. I have already given the noble Lord my undertaking to discuss further what remaining differences we have about financial advice, if any, and I hope that those discussions will allow us to explain in more detail our policy intentions and what our own government amendments in this area aim to achieve. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that we are essentially of the same view about this and that he will be content to discuss the matter with me further outside the Chamber. That being so, I hope that he is sufficiently reassured today to withdraw his amendment.

I turn to Amendment 63, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. We are in concordance with them that a model deferred payment agreement would help local authorities and that is why we already have one in place for the schemes that are currently operating. What we intend to do now is build on and improve the current model. In doing that, we will work in partnership with local authorities to learn from the well established schemes, some of which have a decade of experience. While the case for a model scheme is clear, I think it would be wrong to mandate national systems and structures for deferred payment agreements. It is important that we strike the right balance between local flexibility and national consistency. Systems and structures must be developed in partnership with local government and allow for and, indeed, encourage local efficiencies to flourish. As noble Lords may know, we have established with the Local Government Association and the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services the joint implementation and programme board to support the implementation of these reforms more generally and, through this, we will support local authorities to deliver the universal scheme from April 2015. This work will include our commitment to providing a model deferred payment scheme, based on the current model, as well as statutory guidance to support local authorities in exercising these functions.

The statutory guidance on deferred payments, in particular, will have a clear legal status. Local authorities must act under this guidance. This means that they must consider and should follow it, unless they have a justifiable reason not to do so. This would seem to be the same status as is envisaged by noble Lords in their amendment. I hope therefore the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment in light of the reassurance I have given on supporting local authorities to deliver the universal deferred payment scheme and the model agreement in particular.

My noble friend Lady Barker asked whether the scheme was a model for how local authorities manage the burden on themselves. This is not designed to be a scheme that makes a profit for local authorities. The interest rate is likely to be set at a rate which recognises local authority borrowing rates, and so ensures that the scheme is cost-neutral.

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[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 123. In doing so, I add my support to Amendments 76 and 124, which were tabled by my noble friend Lady Greengross. Indeed, a few of my comments slightly overlap hers.

As the Bill stands, local authorities will be given many complex duties and will be required to make many decisions which will have a substantial—you could say devastating—impact on the lives of elderly and disabled people, but there is no statutory provision for any appeal or independent review process, even if decisions are made on the basis of factual or legal errors. That is the point of the comments I want to make.

I understand that the Government have committed themselves to consider a process of redress or appeal and that they recognised in their response to the Joint Committee that it is,

“vital that people have an effective way to complain and seek redress”,

but there is no assurance in the Bill that such a system will be put in place and, if one is, what its characteristics will be. As my noble friend Lady Greengross said, regulations under other legislation do not appear to do the job. I hope the Minister will comment on that situation.

For example, local authorities decide whether an elderly or disabled person should continue to receive care support. Many will lose that support as a result of cuts to local authority budgets. The impact of losing care support—an entire care package in some cases—can be catastrophic, according to Leonard Cheshire Disability and others directly in touch with disabled or elderly people. Many years ago, I worked with these people, and I find the very idea that a care package could simply be removed very frightening, even as an onlooker, let alone as somebody experiencing such a thing. People become trapped in their homes, unable to work and unable to get out. They become depressed and, in some cases, suicidal—and not surprisingly in my view. There can also be risks to people’s health. As they try to undertake tasks for which they are not well suited or which they are unable to perform on their own, they fall. Has anyone estimated the likely cost to the health service of increased falls, accidents and problems of this kind? What is the Government’s view of the economic costs to the country if family carers have to give up work in order to step into the breach when the state withdraws? The problem is that the local authority may save money but the DWP and the Treasury are likely to pick up the tab. I am not quite sure what the Minister in the other place would think about that.

It is easy for the state machinery to underestimate the incredible vulnerability of many elderly and disabled people. Applicants for care support will inevitably feel nervous and fearful of the consequences of upsetting the very people on whom they depend so heavily. It is terribly important that an appeal or review process is not only user-friendly and accessible but really is independent of the people making decisions about the person’s care. Can the Minister honestly say that care decisions will in future not vary across the country? Can he say that decisions will be made without error and always be based on the law? I do not think so. In preparing this amendment we have been mindful of the cost constraints and the need to allow Ministers flexibility to create a system that will be proportionate and sustainable. I hope the Minister will recognise this in his closing comments.

Having said that, I draw your Lordships’ attention to the fact that Leonard Cheshire Disability has specifically asked me to ensure that a full tribunal service be considered, although we did have a discussion about the financial implications of that. It argues that if such a system exists to deal with conflicts about school places, a decision to deny social care is equally as devastating. The Law Commission recognised the importance of a fair, independent and accessible system of redress.

I know that the noble Earl has discussed this issue with key stakeholders and perfectly well understands the points I am making. I hope he can give the House an assurance today that, if he is unable to accept the precise wording of the amendment, the Government will table an amendment at Third Reading that will guarantee that a suitable appeal or review process will be in place when the Care Bill comes into effect.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I support these amendments—not necessarily the specific wording but the principles behind them. I remind the House of a real difference between many of the appeals under the new framework for adult care and support and what has gone before. We are now talking about a set of arrangements with considerable financial implications for people and their families. In the social security system we set up a tribunal system to arbitrate, which has worked pretty well for a long time. Many of these issues are more akin to the social security system than to complaints about process. There will be complaints about process but many of the things covered in these amendments are about a failure to get a resource from the public purse to which people think they are entitled and have evidence that they are. This is much more akin to the arrangements in the social security system for people who have their claims rejected. It is much nearer to that than complaints about poor processes of work by a public body. The Government should think long and hard about this issue because they are in grave danger of ending up with the whole system being overwhelmed by the number of complaints. Without a convincing system for resolving appeals in the framework of the Care Bill we are heading down a path where judicial review will start to feature quite strongly.

I remind the noble Earl of some of the other issues where there could be appeals. The Joint Committee looked at some of the friction points where there was scope for dispute. There is a raft of areas for dispute over assessment of carers and service users and a whole range of areas for dispute about ability and whether you are going to be charged or not. After the previous debate on deferred payment I can think of another fruitful area for complaints—an inability to get on to some kind of deferred payment scheme. Another area, important to patients and service users, is setting the price for contracts to providers. Clearly, the price-setting mechanism may be disputed between the providers of services who may claim that the price offered by the commissioning agent will be bad for service users and patients. I am not suggesting that these could all come together under one process, but we want more convincing architecture in this Bill to give confidence that there is a sensible way of resolving and arbitrating areas for dispute and for the service user and their carers to secure redress without going through an excessively complicated process.

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[Lord Warner]

Before the Minister sits down, I will ask on a point of clarification. He made a lot of reassuring noises about the ability at the end of the consultation process to deal with some of the outcomes of that process under secondary legislation. Can the Minister clarify whether that also included—if the Government have had a damascene conversion to a tribunal-type arrangement—that secondary legislation could introduce a tribunal-type of arrangement for adult social care?

[Earl Howe]

I may need to answer that question later. However, my understanding is that, yes, we can do it through secondary legislation. If I am wrong on that, I will correct myself before the end of today’s proceedings.

[Earl Howe]

I take the point made by my noble and learned friend. We cannot iron out every kind of disparity, but we should aim for the kind of fairness that he talks about.

I have misled the House: we would not be able to establish a tribunal by secondary legislation—it would require primary legislation. However, as I said earlier, in the consultation that we are carrying out we do not rule out any solution. Clearly, if it transpires that we want to make changes for which primary legislation is needed, we would need to ensure that proposals were brought forward for consideration at the earliest opportunity. In general, we hope that the consultation will flush out any concerns in this area, not least in the area of fairness, as referred to by my noble and learned friend.

[Lord Warner]

Just to finish off this discussion, I have another point for the Minister to consider, which was made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. The whole point about a tribunal system is that you build up case law, so you spread consistency across the country through the case law that individual tribunals have made. Without that structure of a tribunal system I suggest that it is very difficult to achieve the objective that the noble and learned Lord is seeking. Might the Minister ponder on that before we discuss this again?

[Earl Howe]

I shall certainly do so.

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[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Greengross on the duty to report adults at risk, which replicates a duty within the Welsh Bill. I spoke to a similar amendment in Committee.

Providers, together with other partners, will often be best placed to identify abuse and neglect, and it makes sense for them to report to the local authority. At Winterbourne View there were 40 safeguarding alerts, 29 incidents where the police were involved and 78 attendances at A&E but agencies did not take any action. They believed it was someone else’s duty to report and take action. Putting this duty in the Bill would emphasise its importance and would be a vital step in ensuring that the local authority is notified so that it can then take the appropriate action. Leaving this to guidance and local protocols is not a satisfactory solution.

I also support my noble friend Lord Rix’s Amendments 79A and 81A on safeguarding. My noble friend has highlighted how abuse comes in many different forms. The breakdown of the nature of referrals is set out clearly in the Abuse of Vulnerable Adults in England 2012-13 report. The most common was physical abuse at 38,500. There were 24,500 referrals for financial abuse, the third highest. It seems an eminently sensible amendment to add some balance to this clause.

My noble friend’s amendment on safeguarding adults boards sending copies of their annual report to the Secretary of State also seems eminently sensible. Looking at safeguarding annual reports across the country would allow the Secretary of State to see the national picture as well as to monitor what works and what does not. Guidance can be issued where worrying trends are observed and good practice shared. This is about leadership at a national and strategic level, which could help to tackle the abuse and neglect of the most vulnerable members of our society. I do not think it is about extra bureaucracy.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support Amendment 77 and to ask the noble Earl whether his department has actually looked at the legislation that protects children to see whether this is in line with that legislation.

My child protection legislation knowledge and expertise are a bit rusty but the basic rule of child protection is that you see the child in their home environment. That is rule number one. If you look at many of the cases that have hit the headlines after going wrong, it is due to a failure to secure entry early on in the proceedings to see the child in their home environment. The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, has highlighted a very important issue. I am still struggling to understand why the Scots and the Welsh think it is important to retain this kind of approach but we in England do not. There does not seem to be a consistency of purpose across the borders.

Lastly, with regard to neglect, if you look at the data on child protection, I think the fastest growing area in which courts are authorising care orders and approving care proceedings for children is neglect. We should not shy away from the fact that when times are hard this may be a growth area. I am very pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, has included abuse and neglect in her amendment.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, particularly on Amendment 77 about powers of access and entry. She and I were both there at the birth of Action on Elder Abuse, which grew for a reason: people had identified and begun to codify the many different forms of elder abuse.

I absolutely sympathise with what the noble Lord, Lord Rix, is trying to do. Indeed, I had the same thought myself but I will defend the Bill by saying that other forms of abuse—physical, sexual, whatever—are set out in different pieces of legislation. What this Bill does is define financial abuse for the first time. That is really important because we know that very many older people are financially abused by relatives and until now the financial services industry has been pretty hopeless about dealing with it. That is why that is there.

A power of access is important precisely for the reasons identified by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. What we are talking about here is the right of a social worker with a police escort, having got permission via a legal document, to go into somebody’s house, where there is a suspicion that criminal activity may be taking place. That is the magnitude of what we are talking about.