Building Safety Bill

Lord Stunell Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 21st February 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests: I am the president of the Local Government Association and, when in London, I stay in a block of flats. I have a number of amendments in this group. Amendment 9 is the most substantive but my name is also attached to Amendments 4A, 7A, 7B and 147A.

I tried not to test the Committee’s patience by adding “and disabled people” to every part of the Bill I could, but I am looking for more specific recognition that disabled people need greater support and protection than they currently have. If they are not specifically mentioned, disabled people will be forgotten, however good the intention right now may be. There are several important parts where explicitly mentioning disabled people would add significant value, such as on residents’ panels. Of course, there are many types of impairment —we are not one homogenous group—but bringing in additional or different knowledge would be useful for a far greater number of people.

I listened to the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. It is what disabled people think about every single day. In every building I go into, I automatically start thinking about how I would get out if there was a fire. The noble Baroness and I could probably spend most of the afternoon listing all the instances when we have been left near or on staircases, but I take my personal responsibility very seriously. I can still get down a flight of stairs in my wheelchair as long as I have a handrail to hold on to. I can do it reasonably quickly; when I was an athlete, I could do it incredibly easily. However, I know that, as I get older, it will get harder and my ability to get out will become more challenging.

One time, I was in an office block when the fire alarm went off. It was not a drill. There was one evacuation chair—absolutely fantastic—but there were two wheelchair users on that floor. We looked at each other and worked out who needed the evac chair the most. I went down five flights of stairs in my wheelchair. Since Second Reading, more disabled people have got in touch with me to explain their fears but also to let me know about some solutions they have been given. Quite frankly, they were ludicrous, which is why we need to have different things included in this Bill.

In situations like this, we often see that the solutions that non-disabled people come up with are very much based on the medical model, rather than the social model, of disability and do not take into account a disabled person’s reality or life. It was once suggested to me, not in relation to this Bill, that it would be far easier if disabled people had a curfew so that they went home at night and we knew where they were. It was a really serious suggestion; I struggled not to laugh at it, I am afraid. If anything vaguely approaches that in Committee, I hope noble Lords will understand if I push back on it quite strongly. Tagging disabled people is not a sensible solution to this problem either because it absolves us from our responsibility to change how we think about disabled people. We need to be more forward-thinking and, in essence, we need to future-proof the decisions we take.

Specifically on Amendment 9, in another place, the right honourable Mr Christopher Pincher said:

“The Secretary of State can already consider the vulnerability of residents when making regulations.”—[Official Report, Commons, 19/1/22; col. 435.]


However, I do not think that this goes far enough. I know that there are likely be suggestions about including information in a premises information box; that is interesting but, again, it does not go far enough. We need to consider the needs of disabled people. I very much welcome a discussion with the Minister and the Bill team to think about how we can find the right wording, not just by sticking “and disabled people” at every point in the Bill but by genuinely helping disabled people to make it better.

At Second Reading, I asked the Minister when the personal emergency evacuation plan consultation would be published. On 3 February I asked a Question for Written Answer about this, and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, answered on 17 February that it would be

“once the views of all individuals and organisations who contributed have been carefully considered.”

She stated that the timeframe would be “shortly”. I know that “shortly”, in parliamentary terms, can be quite a wide timeframe. Can the Minister provide any update on what it means in this context? This piece of work would be incredibly useful in helping us navigate this Bill.

I am expecting some sympathy from the Minister, although possibly not much movement. Obviously, I will take away his comments from this debate, but will return on Report with amendments in this area and divide the House on ensuring that we have protection for disabled people.

I will speak very briefly to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. He apologises for not being here today; he is trying to get down to London—when he spoke to me this morning he was stuck somewhere around Penrith. He is hoping to be here very shortly. He messaged me to say that, with his amendment, he wanted to add buildings below 18 metres that pose a special risk—not to tie the Secretary of State’s hands but to give the option of complete flexibility to define “buildings” and alter any of the definitions in the section. As he expressed passionately at Second Reading, we have no idea what will be found when proper inspections take place, but there are flats that have been converted from office blocks and box flats with no windows.

Most of his amendments are in the form of “regulations may”. He made it very clear that, when he chaired the Delegated Powers Committee, he would have deplored such a formulation of words, but he recognises that a number of provisions in the Bill must inevitably be skeletal. He also said that taking the power does not mean that it has to be used and it certainly does not imply a commitment to undertake fire remedial work on all buildings, even those under 11 metres which may still be four storeys high.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow on from what the noble Baroness has outlined. I strongly support what she has been saying. I will speak on a couple of other points that have been raised so far, particularly on Amendment 4 and what the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said, and on what my noble friend Lord Foster proposes in his amendment.

However, I will first deal with the point just raised. It is not about a theoretical code; there are absolute, actual conflicts between the requirements which fire officers, for instance, dictate in relation to fire doors—how soon they should shut, and so on—and the requirements of what someone with mobility problems needs to pass through that doorway. These issues are not resolved at the moment; they are not just the subject for soft words but for reconciling the tensions and devising ways to find solutions to those problems. I could make the same point about railings and barriers, where what is required for fire safety is often in conflict with what disabled people need.

Apart from the generality of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, I say to the Minister that there are really specific regulatory pitfalls; things which, if you implement them very mechanically, have internal conflicts which need to be resolved. I very much hope the Minister can, at least during the passage of this Bill if not today, undertake to consult both fire officers and the disabled community on rational ways of solving or at least ameliorating those difficulties.

Amendment 4 was very ably proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp. He has made the central point, which is that there is an important difference between having a set of regulations which are really a complicated algorithm or tick-box—where if you have got everything right you have simply passed, and that is it—and having legislation which sets out the overall purpose of having any regulations or rules at all in the first place. That is where this amendment comes fully into play. It says that safety has a wider import than simply what we mean by making a building fire safe; it is about what we mean by making it safe to live in in the long term.

When I looked at page 82, I was interested to see that Clause 60(8) says that regulations can be made under this provision where there is a significant risk of deaths or

“serious injury to a significant number of people.”

It is clear that, if you think about buildings as things which kill people, far more people are killed by buildings which are damp, leaky and dangerous than by buildings which catch fire. Asthma and bronchitis deaths caused by poor housing form a significant fraction of the health service’s burden during the winter months. That broader outlook or vision of what we actually mean by making a building safe—creating a safe home for people—lies at the heart of this amendment. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to respond to it with a very generous spirit.

I would perhaps urge the Minister on a more practical point: later in the Bill, we shall consider the establishment of residents’ engagement strategies for buildings. I am not sure quite how he envisages those will work, but at some point a large group of residents in a particular building will meet and tell its owners what they believe needs to be done to make their building safe. The Minister has led a council and been to residents’ meetings, so he knows the kinds of things which are raised at them. I would bet that, by 10 complaints to one, they will be about damp, draughts and leaks as against fire doors that do not close properly. Those residents’ engagement groups are going to give a lot of grief to those who run the system in the future. Including this overall vision of what safety and well-being mean within the compass of the Bill and the scope of the new regulatory environment would be one very good way to show that there will be a route for residents to have their complaints, whatever their nature, about their lack of well-being or safety in their home addressed by the legislation.

Having spoken on Amendment 4, of course I strongly support what my noble friend Lord Foster said about the property situation. My support may be irrelevant but I notice that the National Fire Chiefs Council strongly supports this provision, as do the Institution of Fire Engineers and the Association of British Insurers. They all support the inclusion of property risk alongside life safety risk in the regulatory structure that we erect for the Bill. I very much hope that, as with Amendment 4, the Minister will be able to give us a very satisfactory outcome on Amendment 1 from my noble friend Lord Foster.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster, for his clear introduction to his amendments.

Noble Lords may remember that the Minister said at Second Reading that

“Dame Judith called for a complete overhaul of the system, and her recommendations underpin the Bill, with a golden thread that will ensure that, henceforth, people remain safe in the homes that we build for them. The Bill is unapologetically ambitious, creating a world-class building safety regulatory regime that holds all to the same high standard.”—[Official Report, 2/2/22; col. 916.]


We certainly applaud this ambition, but making high-rise residential buildings safe requires much more than action to stop fire spreading. There is also an urgent need to prevent those fires from starting in the first place and to look more broadly at what building safety means. We therefore support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foster, which are designed to make buildings safer and to increase resilience. As the noble Lord said, it is important to improve protections and safety for firefighters and for residents, to give people more time to evacuate the building and to make it less likely that the building itself will be completely destroyed.

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Moved by

[Lord Stunell]

3: Clause 3, page 2, line 22, at end insert—
“(3A) In exercising a building function (other than an excepted function) the regulator may exercise the powers given by virtue of section 8 (certification of work) and section 9 (Appointed Person and management of works) of the Sustainable and Secure Buildings Act 2004.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would pass certain powers of the Secretary of State contained in the Sustainable and Secure Buildings Act 2004 to the regulator.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise to noble Lords; my usually invisible hearing disability got in the way there.

Amendment 3, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Pinnock, joins up very neatly to what the Minister said in his speech winding up the previous debate. He wants the regulator to have a fire safety oversight of all buildings, not just the high-rise ones; he wants to see high standards in all buildings. That is exactly what I want to achieve, which is why I have tabled this amendment.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I will combine the letter for the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. Essentially, they want an answer to this question: “If you take a non-residential building, whether it is an office block or a Yorkshire mill, and you create a residential dwelling, will that be in scope when it comes to a new build?” The start point does not matter—it is non-residential—so is it included? I will answer both noble Lords in writing and lay a copy in the Library.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, we have had an interesting debate. It might be summarised by the Minister saying, “Don’t worry, it’s already all in the Bill and everything’s in hand.” I say to the Minister that we shall want to look very carefully to see the extent to which it is, or is not, in the Bill.

On the interaction between the two clauses to which the Minister referred—Clauses 32 and 33—with Clause 30, which is entitled “Higher-risk buildings etc”, the essence and nub of my amendment on this aspect is to ensure the capacity for the building safety regulator to get straight in as necessary with every building, not simply higher-risk buildings. The Minister seemed to tell me that Clauses 32 and 33 achieve this. I will look carefully at that. If that is the case, I will be absolutely delighted, but if it is not, I shall come back again.

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 3 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Stunell]

5: Clause 4, page 3, line 19, at end insert—
“(3A) In any higher-risk building within the meaning of subsection (3)(a) where works are proposed to be carried out that would require the regulator to be the building control authority by virtue of Part 4 the regulator shall be deemed to be the building control authority for all of those works.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require that in any higher-risk building the whole of any works undertaken are within the scope of one building control authority only.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I will try to do a little better than last time, when I completely ignored my noble friend Lord Shipley. I apologise to him.

I very much hope that the Minister will be able to dismiss this amendment with the same dispatch as he did on my previous amendment because it seeks to achieve that for each building there can be only one regulatory authority and there is no circumstance where a higher-risk building has another regulator at work—another person supervising and signing off completions. There seem to me to be two situations in which, as I understand it, the Bill is not absolutely decisive on that point, as set out in Amendments 5 and 10.

The first relates to a situation where comparatively minor works may be carried out in a higher-risk building which do not, of themselves, directly affect fire resilience. It would therefore seem quite possible for that application to be under the regulatory eye of somebody other than the building safety regulator. That might be a private regulator or a local authority building control body. There are circumstances, and we could examine them in more depth if we need to. The second is that there are currently a number of trades and businesses which are self-certified: electrical works and heating works are self-certified, as are drainage and plumbing works, to a significant degree, and rewiring, internet and IT networks are in the same situation. Those self-certified cases, including, incidentally, replacing windows and so on, may result in the piercing of firewalls, the cutting through of cavity barriers or a loss of airtightness. Of course, a loss of airtightness means a loss of smoke-tightness, which can be vital in a fire situation.

What I want to hear from the Minister is that this loophole—or area of concern—that I have briefly outlined to the Committee is in fact covered by yet another clause somewhere in the Bill that deals with the issue completely. I hope that the Minister can give us a very quick, simple and straightforward reply. It will all be worked out for him on his piece of paper, and I look forward to hearing that, but if it is not forthcoming, we will of course want to return to this later because it is of central importance that we do not have divided authority or, indeed, work sneaking through, if you like, under self-certification, which inadvertently contributes to a diminution of the safety of that building.

There are plenty of practical examples at the moment. The reports I have had from the Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service about fires in what used to be my constituency say that many residential fires of this sort are triggered by tradespeople who cause fires by their activities when they are carrying things out. Very often, they are the people who have cut through the cavity walls and the fire compartmentation, thus contributing to the damage that happens. This is not a hypothetical situation, and it is an important matter, which I hope the Minister will be able to satisfy us is covered by the drafting of the Bill. I beg to move.

[The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, will be participating remotely, and I invite her to speak now.

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[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for raising this important matter. I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept these two amendments, but I assure your Lordships that their intention has already been met in the Bill. The building safety regulator will be the building control authority for building work on higher-risk buildings as defined under Part 3. Clause 32 provides new powers to set procedural requirements in building regulations to govern building work. These powers will provide the basis for the new gateways process for creating new higher risk buildings and a new refurbishment process when carrying out certain building work on higher-risk buildings.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, brought up very specific issues and situations. I will make sure that we write on those, because they are very specific and I do not have briefings on them, although I can say that minor works will still be covered by self and third-party certification, as the noble Lord, Lord Khan, said. However, the BSR can inspect those works if it wishes to, so it will keep an eye on them and will use its powers to do that. On trade and business self-certification and on window replacements, which the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, mentioned, I will get a specific answer to noble Lords and put a copy in the Library.

The building safety regulator will be solely responsible for overseeing compliance with all aspects of building regulations, not just fire and structure, when building work is carried out on higher-risk buildings. This responsibility will not be split between the building safety regulator and the relevant local authority. Furthermore, these amendments refer to the building safety regulator acting as

“the building control authority by virtue of Part 4.”

The meaning of the term “building control authority” is inserted into the Building Act 1984 by Clause 31 and does not relate to Part 4 of the Bill, which is concerned with higher-risk residential buildings when they are occupied. In addition, Clause 31 provides the legal framework to enable the building safety regulator to be the building control authority for building work carried out on higher-risk buildings. It also provides that on multibuilding sites where one or more of the buildings are higher-risk buildings, the developer may, for convenience, seek an agreement with the building safety regulator that it will be the building control authority for the whole site, including in respect of any low-rise buildings.

I thank noble Lords for suggesting these amendments, but with that explanation I respectfully ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. I will write.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her reply and shall await the letters with the greatest interest. A central point here is who notifies who and who knows when stuff is going to happen. For instance, in the current situation, whether it is installing a new boiler or a new window or having some electrical work done, the work is not necessarily commissioned by the owner—it might be by the flat occupier or the leaseholder. On the completion of those works, a certificate is issued to the client and, as I understand it, a copy goes to the building control authority and goes on to its register. It is a post hoc situation; it is not cleared in advance.

I want to see what is in the letter and to understand clearly that we have not left any loopholes, perhaps literally loopholes through which smoke can go or fire can spread. If it is not already clear, we want to see an improved Bill, a strengthened Bill, and we in no way want to weaken it or make it more difficult to enforce or enact. We shall be watching. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 5 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Stunell]

6: Clause 5, page 3, line 26, at end insert—
“(2) The regulator must within two years of this section coming into force carry out and publish an assessment of the benefits and costs of measures on improving the safety of people in or about buildings relating to—(a) fire suppression systems;(b) safety of stairways and ramps;(c) certification of electrical equipment and systems;(d) provision for people with disabilities.(3) The regulator’s assessment may—(a) make proposals in accordance with section 7(2) for regulations in respect of any of these matters, and(b) identify and give notice of such other matters relating to safety of people in or about buildings that they determine require further examination.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure that major issues of public concern about safety in buildings are addressed in a timely way.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

With Amendment 6, we are in completely different territory. Second Reading produced many concerns felt by noble Lords about different aspects of the fire safety and building safety situation. Many arguments were advanced, with great strength, on what should be done about them. Some of those appear as one-off amendments which we shall debate subsequently; when we get to them, the Minister may say exactly what he has already said earlier today—that it is inappropriate to put into primary legislation some of the very specific matters people have been calling for.

Having that in mind, but not wishing to lose the importance of dealing with those concerns, we have tabled this amendment to set out a process whereby the building safety regulator will, in a timetabled review, look at each of those concerns raised at Second Reading and produce a report within two years with recommendations on what should happen. As the building safety regulator, it will also have the ability to give its views on other issues that merit investigation to improve building safety.

The list in proposed new paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) is not necessarily exhaustive; we are trying to establish the principle that, for those matters which are clearly of public concern and in some cases the concern of authorities and regulators of systems themselves—chief fire officers being one example—there is a timetabled and formal way to take them forward and bring them back to the Minister and this Parliament for consideration.

I will also speak to Amendment 149 in this group, which refers to a regulatory audit from the building safety regulator, again to make sure that we hear in Parliament about the progress being made. We are very concerned to understand how the Government see that link between the regulator and the Secretary of State and between the Secretary of State and Parliament, to make sure that progress continues to be made in a measured but effective and rapid way to solve the problems we are tackling in this Bill.

Again, I look forward to hearing the Minister explain all the different reasons why it is not sensible to do this, but we will want to push the matter. I suggest that, if he is looking for a way to respond effectively to those advocating particular solutions, such as work on sprinklers, to be incorporated in the Bill, we have provided a process here which allows that to take place in an ordered, measured way. I beg to move.

[The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is participating remotely, and I invite her to speak now.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I have some experience of this, having led the council that includes Shepherd’s Bush and Hammersmith and Fulham for six years. Even in that time, there were significant incidents of flooding in basements and quite serious concerns. It did not just happen in Shepherd’s Bush, but from Hammersmith and Fulham right up to Old Oak, and it is the same for many inner London boroughs that have basements as well. It was a very significant issue for local authorities, but I think it is quite proper that the mayor, as the first port of call, should have strategic oversight of how we develop the built environment in our capital city. I expect the mayor to take a lead role on this, if I were to pick any level of government. At a national level, I am the Resilience Minister and am happy to take away anything else we need to do to address the specific concerns the noble Baroness has raised, because it is important we recognise that this is a real risk to our built environment, which will get worse in the coming years.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I listened carefully to what the Minister had to say. Here we are, on the first day in Committee, with one set of amendments dismissed for one set of reasons and an absolutely contrary set of reasons given to deal with this one. Previously, the case was that we should not add any extra duties to the list of requirements of the building safety regulator because it would confuse it; now the risk is that, by listing only four things, we are limiting the scope of the building safety regulator to take on additional things.

I would have thought that, if in two years we had reports before us on what to do about fire suppression systems and whether the safety of buildings would be enhanced—and, if so, to what effect—by making some changes to the current regulatory environment; if we had a similar thing on the safety of stairways and ramps, on which a number of noble Lords spoke eloquently at Second Reading; if we had the certification of electrical equipment and systems properly analysed by the building safety regulator, with the expertise it can bring, and a proper evaluation of their importance, or lack of importance, brought back to us; if we had provision for people with disabilities, which the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and my noble friend Lady Brinton spoke about so eloquently earlier; if all those matters could be brought back in two years, the building safety regulator would have done a real service to the safety of homes in which people live and would have answered many of the questions and put in train solutions to many of the concerns that noble Lords raised at Second Reading.

I absolutely do not believe that that limits the subjects the building safety regulator might be able to get to grips with. In case it did, the amendment goes on to say that it should also

“give notice of such other matters relating to safety of people in or about buildings that they determine require further examination.”

That is the “and anything else” requirement to go with those four. I do not accept that the Minister’s criticisms of this amendment are right—there may or may not be other criticisms he could have made, but he did not choose to do so. Although I will withdraw this today, I give notice that this will certainly come back at a later stage.

Amendment 6 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Stunell]

7: Clause 9, page 4, line 20, at end insert “(and any other function that the regulator considers appropriate)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to allow flexibility in the operation of the Building Advisory Committee.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, this amendment relates to the operation of the building advisory committee itself and of its constituent parts. Clauses 9 to 11 of the Bill put in place not just the building safety regulator but three components of it. One is the building advisory committee, the second is the committee on industry competence, and the third is the residents’ panel. All three will clearly exercise vital parts of the function of the building safety regulator, not just in relation to high-rise buildings—higher-risk buildings—but to the whole of the building stock of this country.

The Bill goes on to define what the functions and powers shall be of the various constituent parts. For instance, the committee on industry competence will establish and maintain a body

“with the competence of persons in the built environment industry … with the following functions”,

which are then listed,

“and any other function that the regulator considers appropriate”.

Those are the vital words saying that the committee on industry competence has a wide brief that can be widened further.

Clause 11, on the residents’ panel, says that the regulator will

“establish and maintain a committee with the functions mentioned in this section”,

which are all listed,

“and any other function that the regulator considers appropriate”.

The surprising thing about the building advisory committee, bearing in mind that what has triggered this whole Bill and the legislation that goes with it is all about buildings themselves, is that it has a much more limited brief. It has listed functions, but no capacity for any other function that the regulator considers appropriate. We are setting up in primary legislation a part of that body that cannot be modified as time goes on in the same way as the other two can be.

Therefore, this amendment would simply introduce the phrase

“and any other function that the regulator considers appropriate”

so that it applied to the building advisory committee as well as the other two parts. It will be fascinating to hear what the Minister believes is a good argument for the omission of those words in Clause 9—other than a drafting error—when compared with their use in Clauses 10 and 11.

Also in this group of amendments is the question of whether Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill. Clause 12 states that

“The Secretary of State may by regulations amend or repeal any of sections 9 to 11”,


which, in other words, is the three bodies underneath the building safety regulator: the building advisory committee, the committee on industry competence, and the residents’ panel. The Secretary of State may, by regulation, amend or repeal any of those, and

“The regulations may make consequential amendments of this Act.”


In other words, the Secretary of State will have the capacity to step in, independent of the primary legislation that sets this up, not just to change the functions of these bodies but to get rid of them completely. They could repeal any of Section 9 or delete it completely and then there would be no building advisory committee.

This is a detailed point but for me it comes to light because the building advisory committee takes the part of what used to be—and, for that matter, still is—the Building Regulations Advisory Committee. The new committee is the BAC; the previous one was the BRAC, and the interesting thing is that it was very nearly abolished in 2010. Ministers of the day did not know exactly what BRAC was or did but were very keen to get rid of extraneous organisations that they saw as being on the payroll and contributing to red tape.

As the Minister with responsibility for building regulations at that time, I had some idea of what the Building Regulations Advisory Committee did, which was to supply a great deal of free specialist advice to the department on the implications and likely consequences of regulatory change. When I discovered that its total budget was £20,000, of which something like £12,000 was actually a notional sum about the committee occupying space and having the very part-time use of the civil servants who serviced it, I resisted the abolition of BRAC. I am happy to report that it was not abolished. I would not say that it was either my greatest or only triumph as a Minister, but I can report that the Building Regulations Advisory Committee was rescued from ministerial interference at that point, by good fortune rather than good political management.

I should think the Government have subsequently been rather grateful that they did not abolish BRAC, because it has been a useful buffer between ministerial responsibility and the regulatory outcomes leading to Grenfell. Indeed, evidence has been given to the Grenfell inquiry about the role of BRAC leading up to the fire, and its role in the whole architecture of support to the department in its regulatory function.

I put it to the Committee that the building advisory committee is replacing the Building Regulations Advisory Committee, with the important difference that BRAC was statutory and could not be abolished by Ministers. The only reason why the debate came to light in 2010 was that there was a deregulation Bill and it was proposed, in a long list of bodies, to stick that committee in. So I ask the Minister: why are the Government restricting the committee’s scope? Why do they want the power to abolish it, behind the back of Parliament, when that committee’s predecessor was entrenched in statute and gave a great deal of good value, for no cost at all? This seems to be entirely against the grain, and indeed the reputational impact, of what we are trying to achieve with the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, has eloquently outlined Amendment 7 and Clause 12 to the Grand Committee. I want to ask the Minister—the noble Baroness, Lady Scott—a few questions about the wider committees.

We on these Benches welcome the establishment of the three committees: the building advisory committee, the committee on industry competence and the residents’ panel committee. It is important to ask what the work of these committees is and how will it be funded. This is quite a broad question, so the Minister may wish to come back to me at some stage. Could she also provide details of how the committees will be staffed? How will the Government ensure that this committee will be independent from government?

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, outlined the concerns. We on these Benches also emphasise that Amendment 7 is very simple—it would basically just add an extra line to be consistent with Clauses 10 and 11 relating to the other two committees. I am sure that the Minister could add those words regarding the building advisory committee.

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[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stunell and Lord Khan, for raising these important points, particularly the role of the building advisory committee and its functions.

I will first respond to Amendment 7. I hate to say this again, but I am afraid the Government will not be able to accept the amendment. We seem to have said this all afternoon, but I sincerely hope to reassure the House that the Bill already makes appropriate provision in Clause 9 for a wide set of functions for the committee.

Clause 9 provides for the establishment of a new expert advisory committee—the building advisory committee—as recommended by Dame Judith Hackitt in her independent review. The building advisory committee is to be established by the building safety regulator. That is important: it is a committee under the building safety regulator. It will provide expert advice and information to the regulator about matters connected with any of the regulator’s building functions, except those functions relating to the competence of persons in the built environment industry and registered building inspectors. This will include validating and assuring technical guidance, such as approved documents, to ensure that it is fit for purpose. Clause 9 will play an important part in ensuring that the building safety regulator has access to the support and expert advice required to enable it to deliver its critical work. That is why I respectfully ask the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, to withdraw his amendment.

I turn to the question of Clause 12 standing part of the Bill. I first thank the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and noble Lords today for their scrutiny of the delegated powers in the Bill. I am sensitive to the concerns that have been raised about Clause 12. The Government believe that the Bill sets up the right committees for the near future, but the Bill also needs to enable the building safety regulator’s committee structure to adapt and improve over the longer term through these delegated powers. We have heard many challenges about the future of building in Committee this afternoon and it is therefore important that there is flexibility within the system.

The Government included Clause 12 because of expert advice from the Health and Safety Executive, as the future building safety regulator, that this is needed to enable its committee structure to adapt and improve. This reflects HSE’s more than 40 years’ experience delivering regulation at an appropriate distance from government. Since 1974, HSE has needed to change its industry and subject advisory committees to reflect industrial, technical, legal and administrative developments. This has resulted in HSE having a rich mix of advisory and stakeholder-led bodies.

I hear the concerns about any use of this power to remove a statutory committee and so offer noble Lords additional reassurances. First, the Government would bring forward regulations to repeal a statutory committee only after a recommendation from the building safety regulator that this is needed as part of changes to improve the working of the regulatory system. Secondly, the Bill provides that such regulations would be subject to the affirmative procedure. Therefore, this House can hold the Government to their assurance that the regulations will not be brought forward without a specific recommendation from the regulator and a convincing case about how it will improve the regulatory system. With those assurances that this power is intended only to ensure the new regulatory system works well over time, I suggest that this clause should stand part of the Bill.

On the detailed questions from the noble Lord, Lord Khan, I do not know whether I have details on funding, staffing and independence. Oh, I have—that is very timely. The statutory committee sits within the building safety regulator. Its activities will be funded by the regulator through a mix of central government grant funding and fee income. Once the amount of funding is decided, we will make sure that noble Lords get a letter. I assume that the same will be the case on staffing—that how it is staffed will come down from the regulator to the committee—and that it will be independent.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I slightly got the impression that I might even have got a draw on one of those, and I thank the Minister for her reply. In relation to Clause 12, we will want to see the detail of what the Minister has said. It is somewhat reassuring that she understood the concerns that have been expressed, and we look forward to examining it in more detail.

I have to say that she did not do quite such a convincing job on why the building advisory committee should be treated in a different fashion from the committee on industry competence or the residents’ panel. If the whole point of the procedure in Clause 12 is to stop the fossilisation of a set of structures in primary legislation and to give the possibility of changing them as time goes on, which is really the argument she deployed, it does not seem consistent with that line of reasoning that she has been resisting giving some flexibility to how the building advisory committee uses its functions, acting obviously under advice from the building safety regulator itself. That may well be something we come back to. Perhaps the Minister might like to think, in terms of her reply and the reason she gave for retaining Clause 12, about why that search for flexibility in the longer term is not an argument that also applies to Clause 9 in respect of its difference from Clauses 10 and 11.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, and I apologise for interrupting. I merely wish to apologise to the Committee for not having been able to speak to my amendments today. I got to London five hours later than I had planned. We had a bit of a breeze, and it was not a breeze getting here. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for introducing them and I apologise once again to the Committee. It is a pity in a way as they were my smallest amendments. I have a few larger ones later on, so I was hoping today that I could show the Committee that I can be very brief on occasion.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

Before concluding, can I say that the Minister, if I can speak on his behalf, was very sad to have missed your speech, which he expected to be one of great eloquence? That having been said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 7 withdrawn.