Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I use this opportunity for a brief moment to pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Stevenson, who, from our side, has guided and marshalled our many Front Bench colleagues, including my noble friends Lady Thornton, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord McKenzie, through what has been called a “Christmas tree Bill”. Of course, we do not think it is quite such a Bill because it is not full of goodies, but I thank my noble friend Lord Stevenson and, I have to say, our brilliant legislative adviser, Muna Abbas; this was her first such Bill. We think that it has ended up a little better than it arrived.

I thank the Minister and his sometimes expanding, sometimes reducing ministerial team. I also thank the other members of the Bill team who have helped negotiate, redraft, debate and discuss throughout the process, including the setting up of a large number of bilateral meetings, some of which have dealt with some very complex issues. They now deserve a very good holiday, so I suggest that before too long we have a general election so that they may have one.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of these Benches, I thank my noble friend Lord Wallace for seeing us through this Bill. When we started, we thought that this would be a complete nightmare, but his skill, perseverance and patience have helped that not to be so. I thank also the opposition Benches for their part in seeing this legislation through, and our colleagues in our own office, Giles Derrington and Elizabeth Plummer, who supported us through the business of this Bill.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this is almost the end of the Gardiner-Wallace double act for this Parliament. The kinder definition of this Bill is “a portmanteau Bill”, I think. I am particularly grateful to the Bill teams for the way in which they have coped with what has unavoidably been a matter of negotiation across Whitehall, dealing with different Whitehall departments, in pursuit of what the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, would like to call better regulation rather than deregulation.

When I look across the currently empty Benches, I am always conscious that there are those who believe that the only regulations imposed on Britain are imposed by Brussels. Many of our discussions here have been about the necessity of regulation for many different parts of the British economy, British society and British science, and we are going to continue, for the rest of our careers in this Chamber, to discuss many of these issues about risk, regulation, the market and how one balances all those very difficult issues.

There are many others whom one could thank. I almost feel that I should thank the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for agreeing that, having chaired the pre-legislative scrutiny, he would not take further part in this Bill because he felt that he had had enough. He is far too sharp otherwise to have missed a number of things that we have been struggling with. It has been a very large Bill. We have managed to repeal or amend a number of early 19th-century Acts and statutory instruments, and we have now come to the end. I am extremely grateful to all those who have co-operated in this, including the Opposition Front Bench and their researchers, as well as our magnificent Bill team.

Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, I should declare that I am a landlord in the private rented sector, which is larger than the social rented sector and is still growing. I am firmly against any landlords who engage in retaliatory evictions. I have never had to resort to issuing or have even come close to issuing a Section 21 notice, so this is all slightly unfamiliar territory to me. But it seems that what we are dealing with in this group of amendments is the bottom of the barrel as far as landlords are concerned and, indeed, the bottom of the barrel as far as some tenants are concerned.

There are two improvements in these government amendments over the others which have been tabled and over the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, to the Consumer Rights Bill. The first is that the tenant must make a complaint to the landlord in writing and give the landlord time to rectify the problem before involving the local authority. It seems obvious, but it was not in the other amendment, so it is welcome. The second improvement is that regulations will require landlords to provide tenants with the details of their rights and responsibilities, which is also welcome.

I would now like to talk to the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Howard. I agree that 14 days is not long enough for the landlord to respond. If the Minister is unable to accept the period of 28 days suggested by my noble friend, perhaps 21 days would be a happy compromise. My noble friend’s Amendment 46BA addresses the case where a tenant has failed to pay rent for two or more consecutive due dates. Let us suppose that a tenant does not pay the January rent, but says to the landlord that he will deal with it. The February due date for rent then comes along, and he does not pay that either. On the morning when the February rent is due, the tenant writes a letter to the landlord with some sort of excuse and saying that something needs to be repaired. In the afternoon of the same day he writes to the local authority saying, “I have written to the landlord. He has done absolutely nothing about it, so can you come and serve your notice on him?”. If the local authority does that, the landlord has missed out on the January and February rent and will then miss the next six months as well. That cannot be right.

The bad tenant, the one at the bottom of the barrel, may not have actually sent the letter to the landlord even though he has a copy in his file. The poor landlord, who may not live close by because he is in another county, does not know that any of this is going on, yet the tenant has not paid the rent and will not be paying the rent for eight months. My point is this. Should there not be a duty in the Bill on the local authority to contact and/or write to the landlord saying that the tenant has made a complaint and asking what the landlord intends to do about it? As I have made clear in my example, this may be the first occasion that the landlord becomes aware that there is a problem.

I shall move on to the government amendments. There is a significant omission because the Bill makes no provision for what happens where a landlord responds adequately to a complaint from a tenant within the time allowed. The Bill does not provide for any kind of moratorium to prevent the local authority taking action. The local authority can still serve a statutory notice on the landlord even though he is dealing with the complaint in a responsible manner. This has two consequences for the landlord. The first is that this is potentially serious for a landlord who does not serve a Section 21 notice at the time and who has no intention of retaliating. However, if the landlord is served with a notice by the local authority, he is then automatically precluded from relying on Section 21 for six months. Even if the landlord does not serve a Section 21 notice following a complaint, should he have cause to do so within the next six months following the service of the local authority’s notice, he would not be able to serve it even though a perfectly good but unconnected reason for eviction may subsequently have arisen. It may be because the tenant has gone into rent arrears or has otherwise broken the terms of the tenancy, perhaps through anti-social behaviour.

The second problem arises because a notice served under Section 21 after the written complaint is invalidated. Again, no distinction is made between the bad landlord who is acting in retaliation and the responsible landlord who has a good reason unconnected to the complaint made by the tenant to evict him. The landlord may wish to obtain possession under Section 21 for good reasons and not in retaliation for the complaint. For example, the landlord may have received complaints about serious anti-social behaviour or there may be significant rent arrears. The local authority may want the landlord to evict the tenant because of the anti-social behaviour, but the amendment would mean that the authority could not do anything about it. The solution is to add a provision to the Bill stating that as long as the landlord replies in time and in an adequate way, the local authority should be precluded from serving a statutory notice unless the landlord fails to carry out the work on time. Likewise, in a case where the landlord has responded in time, has addressed the complaint and ensured that the work has been satisfactorily completed, the moratorium on serving a Section 21 notice should be lifted.

I have another point here. Can the Minister clarify what happens if by the time the local authority inspects the property, the original complaint has been dealt with satisfactorily but, on inspection, the local authority finds some other, second problem or complaint meriting the service of a relevant notice? Would the local authority be said to be acting “in response to the complaint”? It could be said that the complaint occasioned a visit which gave rise to the issue of the relevant notice even though it was for good reason. Clarity on this point is requested. It would seem to me that if the original complaint had been satisfactorily dealt with, but a second problem had been found, then a further 14 days should be available for the landlord to provide an adequate response within a reasonable timescale to this second problem, so that the local authority should not issue a statutory notice.

I may have raised one or two issues that the Minister is not able to respond to today. If so, perhaps he could do so in writing.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

My Lords, I was not going to speak in this debate, because I think there is a need for us to move on, but in the light of a couple of speeches on this side of the House, the Minister needs to make it absolutely clear that there is no intention in these amendments to interfere with landlords’ rights in the situation of arrears. Most disrepair issues are sorted out between the tenant and the landlord, but where the relationship has broken down, and tenants need to get legal advice or local authority action, it is not surprising that some landlords may seek to regain possession.

There is an abuse of power here that we need to correct. These amendments are about getting that balance right. That is the purpose of the legislation and I give due credit to Sarah Teather and indeed the Department for Communities and Local Government, for actually allowing us to put these amendments through and for putting down an amendment that tries to make an acceptable reform in this area. The vast majority of landlords will not be affected by these amendments. They already ensure that they comply with the required health and safety standards and they will retain the freedom to issue Section 21 notices. However, the amendments will inhibit rogue landlords flouting their legal responsibilities. That is why this reform is needed.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests. I was an estate agent and am a consultant to an estate agency. I also piloted the 1988 Act through the House. The Act was introduced by my late noble friend Lord Ridley of Liddesdale when he was Nick Ridley and Secretary of State, and I am delighted that it has been so successful. It was controversial and was criticised quite heavily at the time, but it has achieved what it set out to do, which was to improve the private sector rented market and to give more people a choice of tenancies.

I have two concerns of principle with these amendments. One is the timing. This is Report stage, and this is a technical issue. I understand very well that the Liberal Party has put a great deal of emotion and faith into these amendments, and I do not blame them at all: technical points have been raised which need to be discussed. However, we can speak only once, and there is no way that this amendment is going to be discussed in any detail in another place. We are the only Chamber of Parliament that can actually get into this, but we are now limited to Report and Third Reading. The noble Lord, Lord Best, whose opinion we all respect, said that there could be some tweaks, but he did not tell us what the tweaks were. Those are the sorts of things that we ought to be looking at but which, under the procedure, we cannot. I mildly chastise my noble friends on the Liberal Benches for not introducing this in Committee. I understand why they did not: because there was a Private Member’s Bill in another place. But that did not stop them, and we could have had a much better discussion than we are having now. I would have hoped that my noble friend on the Front Bench might have taken this back into Committee, particularly for this purpose.

Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

Amendment 33 agreed.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

moved Amendment No. 33A:

33A: After Clause 79, insert the following new Clause—
“Information contained in entries of births and deaths
(1) The Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 34 (entry in register as evidence of birth or death) insert—
“34A Searches and records of information: additional provision
(1) The Minister may make regulations for the purpose of enabling the Registrar General—
(a) to carry out, on request, a search to find out whether the Registrar General’s certified copies contain a particular entry; (b) to provide, on request, a record of information contained in an entry in the Registrar General’s certified copies, otherwise than in the form of a certified copy.(2) The regulations may authorise or require the Registrar General to charge a fee of an amount specified in the regulations for carrying out a search or providing a record.
(3) The regulations may make provision—
(a) as to how a request for a search or a record may be made;(b) as to the forms in which a record may be provided. (4) The provision that may be made in the regulations includes provision for a record to be provided in a form that does not include all of the information contained in an entry.
(5) This section does not affect the entitlement under this Act of any person to a certified copy of an entry in the Registrar General’s certified copies.
(6) In this section, “the Registrar General’s certified copies” means the certified copies of entries in registers sent to the Registrar General under this Act or under any enactment repealed by this Act and kept in the General Register Office.
(7) Section 30(4) applies for the purposes of this section as it applies for the purposes of section 30.”
(3) In section 39 (regulations), in paragraph (a), for “and 10C” substitute “, 10C and 34A”.
(4) In section 39A (regulations made by the Minister: further provisions), in subsection (5), for “and 10C” substitute “, 10C and 34A”.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to move this amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market. She deserves all the credit for having raised this issue in Committee, and for having spotted the opportunity for it to be included in the Deregulation Bill. She is very grateful for the discussions that she has had with our noble colleague Lord Wallace to move it forward, and we are pleased to have the Government’s support for her amendment. Unfortunately, she is overseas on parliamentary business this week and is very disappointed not to be here, not least to lead her initiative to success.

As my noble friend said in Committee, civil registration records, which include records of birth, death and marriage, date back to 1837. Regardless of their age, the only way in England and Wales to access this information is to buy a certified copy, a certificate, at a cost of between £9 and £10, depending on whether the certificate is purchased from the General Register Office, which holds the national data set, or from the local register office for the district where the event occurred.

The principal purpose of this amendment is to allow records to be available other than in the form of a certificate. Many family historians and genealogists do not actually need a certificate but merely the information contained within it. The thinking is that by allowing information, particularly from the older record sets, which is of most interest to such groups, to be made available in alternative formats, it would be cheaper and quicker to obtain, as it is already is in Scotland and Northern Ireland, where they operate a system where records are considered historic at 100 years, 75 years and 50 years for births, marriages and deaths respectively, which allows them to treat access to the older records in different ways. In a similar vein, this clause enables information on birth, death, marriage and civil partnership records in England and Wales to be provided in different ways, based on factors such as the age of the record.

The clause has been deliberately crafted as a paving amendment to allow the Government full opportunity to consult on the best way in which to bring in changes to how records are accessed. It will provide the Secretary of State with the power to lay regulations to define how a person may access these records, the type of product that can be issued, how the record is to be provided and the amount of fee payable. This would, for example, allow older records to be viewed online, similar to the systems in Scotland and Northern Ireland, or for the introduction of plain paper extracts to be offered to customers who do not require a watermarked certificate.

The clause would therefore provide a gateway to introducing new products and services relating to birth, death, marriage and civil partnership records. It would accept that any change to the current product and services could not happen immediately; there would need to be a full analysis of the options for implementation, decisions around funding and consultation with key stakeholders. Any change is likely to mean IT system changes. However, the clause lifts those legislative restrictions that have tied the Government’s hands in this area for many years and this is a major step forward to greater and more flexible access.

Finally, these powers will apply to copies of entries in the records held by the Registrar General, which means that it would be for the General Register Office to provide any additional products enabled by the powers in this clause. The new clause does not extend to cover local registration services. However, the current ability for an individual to purchase a certificate from either the General Register Office or a local register office will remain. This change would provide wider access to historic records and would be of great interest and benefit to the growing number of people who pursue an interest in genealogy, and in particular to those looking into the history of their families. As my noble friend Lady Scott told us in Committee, one website alone—Ancestry—has 2.7 million subscribers.

Genealogists from across the world want to trace their ancestors back to these islands. The Irish and Scottish Governments have been much quicker than the English and Welsh Governments to appreciate the great tourist value in people looking for their roots. In Ireland, you can get essential information for €4; for Scotland you can order online from the Scotland’s People Centre. The General Register Office issues thousands of historic copies at £9.75 a copy, but does not make a profit. Putting this information online would fit in well with the Government’s deregulation agenda. The issue has been approached on several occasions in the past 30 years. Public consultation showed overwhelming public support in 1999. The General Register Office proposed a whole package of changes in 2005, but it was too wide-ranging for a regulatory order. This paving amendment will enable action to be taken to widen access to help people access information about their family histories going back 200 years. It is time the English and Welsh caught up with the Scots and the Irish. I beg to move.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government are delighted by the discovery by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, of an example of potential deregulation that they had not themselves unearthed. We are therefore very glad to welcome, and accept, this amendment, on which the Government have worked with the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, to refine. We are sorry that the noble Baroness is currently working very hard in the Caribbean. I hope it is not too cold there.

This amendment will achieve a long-standing government policy objective of providing greater flexibility over how, and in what form, records of birth, death, marriage and civil partnership may be accessed. It will provide powers for the Secretary of State to make regulations that will introduce a legal demarcation between those older records of genealogical interest and modern records relating to living individuals. We all recognise that the interest of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, in this issue comes from her own active interest in researching family history. That interest is shared by a very large, and increasing, number of people across the country. As the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, said, the amendment will bring the system in England and Wales in line with those already in place in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It will also bring access to civil registration records up to date by providing much easier access through 21st century technology, and will meet the information access expectations of today’s society.

Importantly, by introducing order-making powers, the new clause is flexible and enabling, and will allow the Home Office time fully to consider and consult upon the implications of any change prior to the laying of regulations. We therefore welcome this workable and balanced piece of legislation, which supports government objectives such as Digital by Design, transparency of data and improved public services. We are therefore very happy to accept the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

33B: After Clause 79, insert the following new Clause—
“Information contained in entries of marriages and civil partnerships
(1) After section 65 of the Marriage Act 1949 (searches of indexes kept by Registrar General) insert—
“65A Searches and records of information: additional provision
(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations for the purpose of enabling the Registrar General—
(a) to carry out, on request, a search to find out whether the Registrar General’s certified copies contain a particular entry; (b) to provide, on request, a record of information contained in an entry in the Registrar General’s certified copies, otherwise than in the form of a certified copy.(2) The regulations may authorise or require the Registrar General to charge a fee of an amount specified in the regulations for carrying out a search or providing a record.
(3) The regulations may make provision—
(a) as to how a request for a search or a record may be made;(b) as to the forms in which a record may be provided. (4) The provision that may be made in the regulations includes provision for a record to be provided in a form that does not include all of the information contained in an entry.
(5) Before making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult the Registrar General.
(6) Regulations under this section are to be made by statutory instrument.
(7) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
(8) This section does not affect the entitlement of any person to a certified copy of an entry in the Registrar General’s certified copies.
(9) In this section, “the Registrar General’s certified copies” means the certified copies of entries in marriage register books sent to the Registrar General under this Part of this Act and kept in the General Register Office.”
(2) In section 36 of the Civil Partnership Act 2004 (regulations and orders), in subsection (2), after paragraph (f) insert—
“(g) for the carrying out by the Registrar General, on request, of searches of entries in the register and the provision, on request, of information contained in the entries (otherwise than in the form of certified copies).” (3) In section 9 of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 (conversion of civil partnership into marriage), in subsection (5), after paragraph (b) insert—
“(ba) the carrying out, on request, of searches of any information recorded and the provision, on request, of records of any information recorded (otherwise than in the form of certified copies);”.”

Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, I am all for getting rid of rules and regulations that have served no purpose and are redundant, but when we take a scythe to the deep undergrowth, we risk cutting down some very useful plants. I contend that that is happening here in reference to Part 6 of Schedule 20, which amends the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. What the provision would do, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has explained, is to remove a critical requirement for the licensed breeder to maintain records to a prescribed form with respect to the breeding of their bitches.

I contend that to remove this requirement is a retrograde step at this time. What we are talking about here is animal welfare and puppy farming. We are witnessing a huge, unprecedented growth in the commercial breeding of dogs purely for financial gain. In many cases, animals are kept under very inappropriate conditions. This is a matter of considerable concern to the public, to the animal welfare charities and to politicians. We had a debate on dog welfare in this House about a year ago, in which puppy farming was dealt with, and there was a debate in the other place on this issue as recently as early September.

We have laws in place to safeguard the animal welfare of breeding bitches: the aforesaid Acts of 1973 and 1999, which laid down limitations on the number of litters that a bitch can be allowed to produce per year and in a lifetime, the minimum age for breeding and so on. However, the Bill proposes to dismantle the very tools that will allow local authorities to ensure that those important laws, which we all agree that we still need, are being obeyed. So the current regulations are relevant and all that removing them will do is to provide meat and drink for unscrupulous dog breeders to exploit their breeding bitches.

As I mentioned, this matter was debated in another place on 4 September, when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State’s attention was drawn to this issue. However, in summarising on that debate he made no reference to this problem but did reference the recommendations of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health on the sorts of conditions which should be included in any regulations. It is made quite clear in the chartered institute’s guidance that maintaining complete and accurate records is regarded as essential. The current requirements are not onerous. There is a simple pro forma to fill in and you keep a record every time that the bitch breeds. To remove that will not see a surge in the gross domestic product of the United Kingdom, so why imperil animal welfare for no obvious purpose?

I suspect that the answer will be that these current requirements are redundant because it is proposed to bring in mandatory microchipping in 2016. I am totally in favour of mandatory microchipping but as was explained by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, the microchipping regulations do not cover the areas of concern that I am expressing. Microchipping is there to link a human being with a dog. I have looked at the draft regulations, which require no more than certain details of the owner and certain details about the dog—its colour, breed and so on. The microchipping regulations do not include any information about the sire or dam of the dog in question or, if it is a bitch, whether it has bred at all, how many litters it has had, when it has had those litters and so on, so they do not substitute for the requirements which it is proposed to abolish.

Removing the current requirement is opposed by the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding, the Dogs Trust, the British Veterinary Association and indeed, by the Local Government Association. Removing the requirement will hardly benefit the economy and will certainly not benefit animal welfare, but it will benefit unscrupulous dog breeders in their attempts to exploit their dogs. I contend that the current regulations are relevant and not redundant. I ask the Minister to reconsider.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

Given the noble Lord’s great knowledge on this issue, can he comment on the problem of dangerous dogs and interbreeding, and whether this will weaken our controls in that area?

[Lord Trees]

It might conceivably in the sense that breeders need to record the details of the sire as well as the bitch in the prescribed form. It could have an effect on the matter raised by the noble Lord. Clearly certain breeds are proscribed, so they would not—or should not—be used for breeding, and presumably would not be entered here. That may have some bearing on the matter. The primary concern is the exploitation of bitches in general and overbreeding because of the financial advantages.

Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Thursday 30th October 2014 Grand Committee

Even without changing our definition, I urge support for the amendment. Work by the consultancy firm Capital Economics, which surveyed economists, fund managers and credit ratings analysts, concluded that there would not be any significant reaction from the markets to an increase in borrowing of £7 billion over five years resulting from lifting the borrowing cap. It is a matter of all hands on deck and we desperately need councils to be part of the picture. For those that are ready to go and those that would gear up if given the helpful nudge this amendment provides, I ask both the Government and the opposition parties to be a little braver in allowing local authorities to do what we know they can do extremely well.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to support the thinking behind the amendments proposed by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Best. In fact, I agree 100% particularly with what the noble Lord, Lord Best, was saying in the detail of what is now required in the social housing sector. It has been one of the frustrations of this Government to get the number of houses up. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, every Government have been frustrated with their idealistic objectives in this area. It is perhaps not surprising that after the huge damage of the recession in the housing and building sector it has been slow to respond, although many of us from an early stage have been saying that this was an even stronger argument for a more positive stimulus to social housing construction.

We are encouraged under this Government that it looks as though we will end up with a larger stock of social housing than we had before, but it is still not enough. The figures disappoint when set against the need and the potential to meet that need. We have to hold the Government to account on this, particularly as this is the fourth change in the right-to-buy policy in the last two years. It can be supported only if it ensures that we get a one-for-one replacement so, as one social house is sold, one replaces it. There are particular difficulties—as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said—for housing associations dealing with preserved stock in terms of the money they then have to build new homes once somebody has exercised the right to buy. We will want some assurances from the Government on that. There is a danger in reducing the eligibility to three years to buy houses that people will increasingly see the need to get into social housing, not to meet necessarily their social need but to ensure they then end up buying a house at a discount. That is not the purpose of our social housing.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked the Government to reveal if they can—or at least say when the latest set of figures will be available to show—how many homes have been sold and how many new social homes have started. We have the figures for 2012 and 2013 and we are six months now from the end of the financial year. I hope the Minister will be able to provide some figures which will be encouraging to us and if not, will tell us when those figures will be available. I remind the Committee—and indeed remind the Government—that it has always been one of the objectives of the right-to-buy policy initiative under this Government that we build more houses to meet social need, and that is what we have to hold them to account for.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that that answers the various questions and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. I reiterate my promise to answer the detailed questions raised.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

Before the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, responds, may I apologise to the Committee? I meant to declare my interest as chair of Housing & Care 21 but failed to do so. I would like to put that on the record.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Stoneham, for their contributions to this debate. I look forward to receiving the figures in due course from the Minister. I was not quite sure whether in his response he was saying that the Government are currently meeting their one-for-one guarantee. It would be helpful to know if that is the Government’s position.

Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Tuesday 21st October 2014 Lords Chamber

After 40 years of progress, we see the Government unforgivably trying to unravel parts of our health and safety system, so opposition to this clause comes not only from us but the TUC and the EEF, from professional bodies as well as campaigning organisations such as APIL, IOSH, IIRSM, RoSPA and others—all people who know and work with the present system. Frankly, we do not think that the Minister’s heart is in it either, nor should it be. We should resist Clause 1 and strike it from the Bill.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, my personal position is that we should not bother to amend this aspect of the Health and Safety etc. Act, but I also accept that, although there are arguments on both sides, the chasm of disagreement is not as great as either side might want us to think.

There are certain bêtes noires of our society which are blamed for most of our problems, whereas in reality the positive contributions of those organisations are often greater. One of those is the Health and Safety Executive. The perception of that organisation often gets in the way of reality. The health and safety legislation has assisted huge improvements, as indeed have better management practice and staff involvement to address poor work practice and productivity related to poor safety conditions.

The questioning of the working of the health and safety legislation and the European directives associated with it was probably to be expected from this Conservative-led Government, but Professor Löfstedt may have disappointed many when he said that no radical reform was needed and that the problem was less with regulations and more with the way in which they were interpreted and regulated. However, one feels that he had to say something to come up with a political proposal. He advocated that those self-employed whose work activities pose no threat to others should be excluded, which would help reduce the perception that health and safety is inappropriately applied.

The reality is that there is not much of a burden on the self-employed. That was proved in the Government’s consultation. If you do not believe the Health and Safety Executive, even the mighty Engineering Employers’ Federation, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, told us, supports its view, stating:

“It is a myth to suggest that the self-employed are singled out by the regulatory authorities for inspection. This is not the case nor is there a record of prosecution against the self-employed, except in a few cases where their activities have or could have impacted others adversely”.

If such burdens were so great on the self-employed and on small businesses, how do we account for the huge growth in self-employment and business start-ups under this coalition Government?

There is a problem with excluding general categories of self-employed for whom health and safety is not a burden. You end up making the regulations more complicated and less simplified, which should be the objective of the legislation. The self-employed are going to have to know whether they are excluded. To many, this might mean that understanding the regulations will be even more difficult than it is now, and that we are going to have all sorts of categories, whether it is drivers, removal people, carpenters and all trades people, construction workers, bee-keepers and so on, excluded from this provision in the Deregulation Bill. The general view that this change is not worth the candle is one which I share, but if we are to have it—and I accept that we probably are—we must see the list of exemptions to reassure people that no real harm is going to be done.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the chairman of a company that from time to time gives health and safety advice and as a former Minister for health and safety. I start from the assumption that there is something a bit peculiar about an outside body controlling the way that an individual shall disport himself in his own business—particularly if it is held in his home. That is not unreasonable. More and more people work at home. We are changing the law to make it impossible for people who rent accommodation to be told that they cannot work at home. There are many jobs that people do at home where, frankly, telling someone that they should not stand on an upturned waste-paper basket to get something down from a shelf is an intrusion.

That is my basis, so I do not come to this with any antagonism. There is truth in the feeling that the health and safety regulations have, whether because of their application or because of the perception, stopped a whole lot of activities which it would be better not to have stopped. I also know that many of those who are opposed to the European Union have used this as an excuse to bash the European Union when, of course, almost all of it is our domestic attitudes, and the European Union has adopted British attitudes towards health and safety. I often point out to people that the ease with which the European Union is blamed for things is one of the problems with people’s perception of that very important institution to which we belong and to which I trust that we will fight to ensure that we go on belonging.

However, there are some real problems here that have not been approached. Perhaps I may give some practical experience. Recently, I talked to someone who had been held responsible for an accident in premises which he owned and oversaw by a self-employed person who did something dangerous to himself, but not on his own property but on that of the person concerned. We have to face the odd issue that if we are not very careful, we will have circumstances in which the employee of a firm will be protected and the self-employed will find themselves protected or affected only when they are working somewhere else. Does that mean that a self-employed person who has no responsibility under the Act to protect himself nevertheless has a case against someone else for his own actions, because they happened to be on their premises? That may not seem to be a general activity, but it is a bit more general than some would like. That would bring no benefit to people’s approach to health and safety legislation.

I use that example not because it is the most important, but because it makes me wonder whether, in the speedy time in which the Bill has been discussed, we have thought through all the ramifications. Having been a Minister for health and safety, I have to say that it is a very complex area. Apart from the very real sense that people feel that we have overdone it in many concerns, let us also accept that it has had remarkable success in protecting people, sometimes from themselves.

That brings me to my second point. My noble friend raised the argument of whether, if you have sufficient people exempted from cover, those who are not covered will know whether they are exempted. In other words, there seems to be a real complication about how people get to know whether they should be there or not. That in itself is one of the things that will bring the Act into disrepute. People will say, “I don’t know if I am covered. Perhaps I had better find out—I had better get somebody to tell me”. Frankly, they will find themselves in precisely the position from which the Government are, absolutely rightly, trying to protect them. I have a real issue with the complications which inevitably come if we are dealing with this.

Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Monday 7th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, it is strange having a Second Reading debate when the principles of the Bill seem fairly straightforward and the argument will all be over the detail of the matters to be deregulated, which are more properly dealt with in Committee

The Liberal Democrats believe that regulation plays a vital legislative function and can be hugely important in protecting people, businesses and other interests, but we are critical of overcentralisation in our national Government and we certainly accept the need, particularly when recovering from a deep and damaging recession, to look critically at regulations to simplify and eliminate those which are over-complex and outdated. We know, too, that many of the jobs coming in the recovery are being created in the SME sector and among the self-employed. That is critical to future competitiveness, flexibility and creativity in our economy. We supported the Red Tape Challenge and the one-in, one-out system for new regulations and the extension to the one-in, two-out policy. We accept that free markets do not simply happen; we need regulation to ensure fair competition and free markets. Much has to be done to simplify and reduce regulation as standardisation is increasingly achieved in the EU.

The Government having focused on deregulation, the Bill is an inevitable consequence. We may argue in this House over some of the detail, but the direction and objectives we strongly share. There are a number of measures that we welcome and have strongly supported. One of the great successes of the coalition, building on the foundations left by the previous Government, has been the growth in apprenticeships, with more than 2 million created in five years at a time of strong economic adversity. The Bill seeks to put in place the new framework for delivering apprenticeships proposed by the Richard review. The review proposed a new, simplified structure of apprenticeships and funding to give employers a greater say in their structure and content. This new approved apprenticeship scheme means that apprenticeships will be delivered to a recognised standard, with the Government funding their part of the training aspects through HMRC. The Secretary of State will have the power to amend the apprenticeship standard agreed with employers. Flexible, more efficient and simpler administration will mean that authorities and employers can concentrate on updating apprenticeships and improving standards. We strongly support this measure.

I also support the efforts to help local communities run functions in their communities without undue regulation. It is obviously long overdue for us to look at the alcohol rules for these events. I give credit to the Minister in the Home Office, Norman Baker, who has helped to push through some of these reforms in the Bill. The sale of limited alcohol at community events is to be deregulated. The exhibition of films in community premises not requiring a licence, as it does currently, may be a small measure but is clearly long overdue. The deregulation will encourage community participation and, indeed, promote our creative industries.

We also support the whole complex deregulation on rights of way. I expect the devil is in the detail. I suspect more differences will be revealed as we go on. However, we clearly needed to ease the process of recognising public rights of way and dealing with registering historic rights of way, which now seems to have the support of the principal stakeholders. Therefore, we support deregulation in this area.

There are, however, some matters that will need attention when we get to the detail. Health and safety has already been mentioned. With the growth of self-employment, we need to make sure that the new provisions excluding the self-employed, except those in dangerous occupations, do not simply create greater complexity rather than give a general commitment to good health and safety practice. We need to look at the detail of this and be convinced by it. On the right to buy, there is no great principle at stake in reducing the qualifying period from five to three years, although I think we probably would have preferred to see how the current measures stand up over time. However, we do not want to see social-needs housing simply become a way of finding an incentive to home ownership. The objective of that housing should be to serve social needs. The key issue is whether we will use the proceeds from the social housing sold to add to the housing stock, rather than diminish the social housing stock as we have done over the past 30 years, except in the past couple of years of this Government.

On the licence fee, clauses provide for an appropriate review of penalties for non-payment. We accept that it is a review but we are not necessarily being committed to how that will be done in the future. Ideally, it should be done at the same time as the charter review. The key should be to look at how any new system can improve on the current low level of evasion and reduce the £111 million cost of collection. The BBC cannot stop people using its services without paying the licence fee, unlike its competitors, such as Sky. We should be aware that if the BBC reverts to the utilities’ record of dealing with bad debt, it will lose £200 million of revenue.

We welcome the Government’s commitment to reducing and simplifying unnecessary regulation. It is needed to improve the country’s competitive advantage and that should be a preoccupation of all elements of government and, indeed, the country as a whole, particularly in relation to small businesses, which often hold the burden of regulation. This is one small step to grasp the need for simpler legislation, which does not hold back the creative and dynamic aspects of small businesses. Small steps will help but we will need many more.

Ministerial Code

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

It is perfectly possible for Parliament to have a view. Having read several recent reports by the Public Administration Committee and the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons, I can say that Parliament makes its views felt extremely actively and frequently.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

May I ask my noble friend the Minister whether the Government are considering changes to the Ministerial Code in the light of the Leveson report, or whether they are putting their energies into achieving an agreed code of practice that would apply both to Ministers and the opposition Front Bench, in order to ensure the transparency of future relationships between all leading politicians and senior media executives, as recommended by Lord Justice Leveson?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Ministerial Code now makes it clear that Ministers should report their meetings with all interested parties—which clearly includes those covered in this part of the Leveson report concerning media proprietors, newspaper editors and senior executives—so such meetings should be covered by the Ministerial Code.