Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Sandhurst Excerpts

Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, we have had an hour and three-quarters on this amendment and perhaps we should move on.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be very brief. The definition at the beginning is a most important matter. I am quite clear, having heard noble Lords make a number of very sound observations, that “capacity” is an essential term. That is the first thing. However, it is not sufficient, and it has to be added to. I say that because the Mental Capacity Act states explicitly that a person is not treated as lacking capacity merely because they make an unwise decision. That is a very different situation from what we will be dealing with in many cases going forward. I urge the House, when this comes back on Report and preferably beforehand, and the promoters, to consider adding simply “and ability” so that it reads “capacity and ability” because they are different concepts, and they are necessary if this is to work properly in future.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

I wish to respond briefly to two points. I have every admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and I definitely concur that we have a responsibility in this House. I also gently remind this House that there were a number of Members of the other place who said, both in writing to their constituents and in their spoken contributions in the House, that they were essentially outsourcing the job to this place for us to ensure legislation that is fit for purpose. I regret that that is the case. I think there are many of us on all sides of the debate, on both sides of this House, who would wish to see a government Bill, which has been the case with previous Private Members’ Bills that have been adopted by the Government. We would have more time and opportunity to ensure that we have robust legislation.

In the absence of that, in the process that we find before us, I want to share with the Committee—I was going to bring it up in the next group but in light of the comments and the contributions that we have heard so far I think it is important to share on record—the comments that we heard in the Select Committee from the Royal College of Psychiatrists. It is a professional body that was called to give evidence on behalf of its members as one of the pillars of the process, as one of the pillars of the panel.

We heard from Dr Annabel Price, who is the lead for the Royal College of Psychiatrists on the Bill. She is an eminent expert in this space. She shared with us that the college had very carefully thought through its position and its views and that it had asked for a review of the Mental Capacity Act’s suitability because it believes that the Bill currently states that a person is eligible if they have the capacity to make a decision to end their own life, but this framework has not been tested for this particular decision. There are principles within the Mental Capacity Act that the college is not certain are compatible with this decision and need to be thought through more carefully.

I think we should heed that warning and listen very carefully to that college whose members will be responsible should this legislation go through. Therefore, in the context of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I think it is important for us to consider this in terms of how we inform our debate going forward, which is relevant to this group and to the group that follows.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That is very well put and is exactly the question. Is it appropriate to bring the Mental Capacity Act into this Bill? I understand that whether you have an assisted death is an incredibly important decision. You cannot remove the word “capacity”, so you have to reject the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

Her Amendment 115 effectively draws on how the Mental Capacity Act 2005 is currently drafted, except it adds two things. It removes the presumption of capacity and, separately, it requires the person making the decision to be aware of a variety of things that are connected with their illness. To summarise, the way the Mental Capacity Act operates at the moment is that if you are unable to understand information relevant to the decision, to retain that information, to use and weigh that information or to communicate your decision, you do not have capacity under the current Mental Capacity Act. The extent to which the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has referred to in her amendment would be relevant would have to be weighed in the context of the decision that has to be made.

I am more than happy to debate whether we need to make the changes to the Mental Capacity Act that she is suggesting. For my part, I do not think we do. One thing that is absolutely clear is that the amendment proposed, as the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, identified, is completely ridiculous. You cannot remove the question of capacity from this choice. Putting aside some detail hurdles, there are two hurdles that need to be overcome in how this Bill is constructed. You have to be capable of making the decision, as the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, said, and—completely separately—you have to make that decision completely voluntarily. It has to be your own decision, not the product of pressure.

We have had—and I say this with warmth and respect—a rambling debate going over a whole range of issues, miles away from the question of whether one should remove the word “capacity” and put in the word “ability”. If this House wants to make the law completely confused in this area, either put in the word “ability” or put in “capacity and ability”. I echo the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, when she says we have to approach this in a grown-up manner, and to remove the word “capacity” is not a sensible way to deal with this.

I also echo those who have said that the idea of running two systems at the same time—the Mental Capacity Act system and the separate system proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—is wrong and confusing. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, for spotting what the right decision is. Of course, under the Mental Capacity Act some unimportant decisions are taken, but a decision such as whether to have the ventilation removed from you if you have motor neurone disease, that will almost certainly lead to your death, is without a shimmer of a shadow of doubt a life and death decision.

The Chief Medical Officer of England and Wales, in evidence to the Lords Select Committee, said:

“it is far better to use systems that people are used to and that are tested both in practice and, where necessary, in law”.

He went on to say:

“I have a concern that you could have a conversation in one bed in a hospital where someone is talking about, for example, an operation where they might well lose their life, because they are frail and there is the operative risk, done under the Mental Capacity Act, and, in the next-door bed, someone is trying to do the same process of having a difficult conversation about someone who might die, or could definitely die, as a result of that decision, but using a different legal framework. The risks that that could lead to confusion are not trivial”.


I also echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, who sadly is not in her place, said. There are problems about practically every aspect of how various parts of the health service work, but she was part of a process that considered how the Mental Capacity Act worked. The broad conclusion was that it was a good, workable Act, and we should not stray from it in this particular case. I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, may I just make it absolutely plain that I said that capacity was necessary but not sufficient. I am not stuck with whether it should be “and ability”, but I was absolutely plain in my very short speech that capacity was necessary but not sufficient.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I was picking up on the word necessary. What the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is suggesting is that we remove the word “capacity”. I do not know if I misunderstood the noble Lord, but that is what I thought he was saying.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

I wanted to make it plain because some people listening to the noble and learned Lord might have thought I had not said that.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

Before the noble and learned Lord finishes, can he clarify for the Committee that a person who can grasp only a diluted amount of information, or who cannot retain the information in any real sense that would be intelligible to us, can be deemed to have capacity for the purposes of the Mental Capacity Act, but for this Bill, which is designed to give people agency and allow an individual as much choice as possible to choose treatment or have agency over medical and palliative care decisions and so on, an entirely different threshold should, quite rightly, be expected for such a serious measure as this?