Mental Health: Parity of Esteem

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Monday 23rd June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

The noble Lord is quite right about the importance of mental health research. Unfortunately I do not have the figures in my brief, but I will gladly write to him on the research that is currently under way which my department is helping to fund.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister do what he can in government to lock in the policy of the programme that he has announced today? I remind him that—I think it was in 2004—the former Social Exclusion Unit published a seminal report on mental health and social exclusion, with 27 action programme recommendations. As Ministers come and go and as civil servants get recycled, things go off the boil and we have to start doing it all over again. That does not serve the citizens of the country on an issue such as this, which transcends all our other divisions. We need to concentrate on it so that we do not lose it as people come and go.

[Earl Howe]

The noble Lord is right and I can say to him that the coalition Government have tried as far as possible to continue the good work on mental health of the previous Administration. One has to keep renewing the momentum on this. Situations do not stand still, and that is why our new mental health action plan Closing the Gap reminds everyone in the system of the most important gains to be made in 25 areas where people can expect to see and experience the fastest changes. I am glad to say that that document has been well received by all stakeholders.

National Health Service: Hospital Beds

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 11th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend has encapsulated the point very well. One cannot correlate bed numbers as a stark statistic with the quality of care that a health system delivers. Our system is dependent not just on acute settings but on care in the community, and that is where the focus should rightly lie at the moment.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Then can we look at outcomes rather than beds as far as the OECD figures are concerned? For the United Kingdom, I will take just three factors: infant mortality, cancer survival rates and obesity. We are beyond the 20 best performers in terms of outcomes—20 OECD countries do better than us. Why are we operating so poorly compared with these other countries?

[Earl Howe]

There are a number of issues there. The noble Lord is right to raise obesity, in particular, where only one solution is available to us, which is a public health policy which embraces all parts of the system and, indeed, individuals. The issues that he raises are too complex for me to encapsulate in a short answer but I will be happy to write to him about what we are doing in all three areas. He is of course absolutely right to raise them as very important issues for the health service.

Health: Folic Acid Fortification

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd April 2014 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they expect to be able to make a decision in respect of folic acid fortification of white bread flour as part of a policy to reduce pregnancies affected by neural tube defects.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, we have previously stated that we were waiting for data on the folate status of the population from the National Diet and Nutrition Survey before making a decision with respect to fortification of flour with folic acid. The noble Lord is aware that delivery of these data has been significantly delayed. However, we will make a decision by Easter and will communicate it as soon as possible thereafter.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

That is very good news because the congenital anomaly register, which the Minister will be aware of, currently shows that, on average, every week in England and Wales, 13 pregnancies are terminated due to neural defects and three babies are born with spina bifida and other conditions. Two-thirds of those tragedies could be avoided by fortification. Although the delay in the checking of samples is to be criticised in some ways, is it not ironic that British blood samples have been sent to America for checking and delaying, when America has fortified flour since 1998 based on the UK’s Medical Research Council’s work in the 1990s? When are we really going to get a decision so that we can use this for the benefit of our own people?

Health: Folic Acid

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answers by Earl Howe on 18 December 2013 (HL Deb, col 1261) and 21 January (HL Deb, col 567), what was the population sample of females of child-bearing age used in the National Diet and Nutrition Survey for folate status; and on what dates the survey data were collected.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)]

Blood samples for folate-status analysis were collected from more than 600 females of childbearing age—15 to 49 years—as part of a UK representative sample of adults and children in the National Diet and Nutrition Survey. Blood samples were collected over four years from 2008-09 until 2011-12.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept that those figures are much smaller than recent research samples such as the 50,000 people involved in the Lancet-published research last year and the 500,000 women in England over a 12-year period in the research published last week that showed that the quantity of folic supplements taken by them was actually falling, which is the current policy? Given that the UK has the highest rate of neurological defects in the whole of Europe—80% of which pregnancies are terminated—is it not time to make a decision, talk to industry, the medics and science and join the other 70 countries protecting women from those births?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I recognise that this is an extremely important decision for the Government to make, affecting many people’s lives. I do not accept the implication behind the noble Lord’s question that the numbers involved in the analysis were somehow statistically invalid. I am assured that they represent a valid statistical base. We welcome all robust new evidence around the issue of fortification, such as the study published last week by the Wolfson Institute, and I can assure the noble Lord that we will take a decision on this matter as soon as possible.

Health: Flour Fortification

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the public health impact of the current programme of fortifying flour; and whether they have plans to extend the programme.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government considered the health impact of the current programme of fortifying flour as part of the Red Tape Challenge review of the bread and flour regulations and concluded that it does deliver public health benefits. We are currently considering the case of mandatory fortification of flour with folic acid and will reach a decision when we have considered new data on the folate status of the population due early this year.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer but ask him to speed up that review. Is he aware of the major new peer-reviewed research from the Wolfson Institute, which surveyed half a million women over a 10-year period and found out that folic supplementation is going down? It concluded that the current policy is failing and creating health inequalities. We know that now. Is this not a real worry?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am not aware of that study but I shall of course make myself familiar with it. I do not doubt that it will feature in the consideration that we give to this issue, which I can assure the noble Lord we will do as speedily as we can. It is important to say that adding to the list of fortificants would be a major step and we need to be absolutely sure that it is the right one.

Health: Birth Defects

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their current approach to reducing the number of children born with neural tube defects; and whether they will consider fortifying white bread flour with folic acid as an additional measure.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, we encourage women to plan pregnancies, and advise those seeking to become pregnant to take folic acid supplements before conception and for the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and to increase their intake of folate-rich foods. We are considering our nutrition advisers’ full recommendation to fortify flour with folic acid and will take into account new data on the folate status of the population in reaching our decision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, given that folic supplementation needs to be taken before most women know that they are pregnant, is the Minister concerned that less than 6% of 20 year-olds actually take folic supplements? The follow-up research published earlier this year is now available—on top of the scientific advice that the Government received in 2007 from independent committees and the Food Standards Agency—and shows that putting folic acid in flour causes no side effects for males. Is it not therefore time to change policy and put folic acid in white bread flour, which the BMA says is the most cost-effective way of avoiding the misery of hundreds of affected pregnancies, and to join 50 other countries that are doing the same?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, mandatory fortification of food is, by any standards, a big step; it is not a decision to be taken lightly. The issue that we have been facing is that the survey data used by the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition is more than 10 years old. The latest data available on the folate status of the population will be available early next year, and we feel that it is prudent to use that information to assess the risks and benefits of fortifying flour with folic acid before we make our decision.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, I, too, want to congratulate the Minister on his very helpful statement on education and training which is warmly welcomed not only in this Chamber but I suspect broadly through the medical and healthcare professions. This issue has caused tremendous anxiety. To provide clarity and the opportunity for it to be addressed in a constructive way on Report is genuinely welcome.

[Lord Rooker]

I, too, welcome the Minister’s statement. He will know that I have no qualifications in this but I have raised the issue of nurse training twice in the House this year—in the debate in March and at Question Time in October. I just want a point clarified. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, refers to the board promoting but,

“having taken note of the responsibilities of the regulatory authorities”.

Does the Minister include possible changes and recommendations to the regulatory authorities in terms of their aspect of education and training?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, no, because the Bill does not cover the duties of the regulatory authorities themselves, the professional regulators that is to say. My undertaking should be read as relating to the Bill itself and the bodies and structures it sets up.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Rooker]

137: Clause 20, page 20, line 1, at end insert—
“( ) The Board may take specific action to support the development of the voluntary sector, social enterprises, co-operatives and mutuals as it considers appropriate.”

[Lord Rooker]

If the Minister’s words in the last debate mean anything at all, he will accept this amendment. It is as simple as that. It is his lifeboat. In fact, it is the lifeboat that—nothing personal to the Minister—will stop the team of Ministers becoming a laughing stock for the third sector, bearing in mind what was said last year, which we have heard a little bit about, and what is being done in this Bill. It will also stop them taking the Lib Dems for a ride. I heard some of the most profound words in our debates on the Bill uttered by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, at around 3.30 pm this afternoon, when she deeply questioned once again the motives of the endgame of this exercise. That is what she said; it is very profound and she has said it before. They are words that others have also used. What is the endgame of this process? To stop themselves being taken for a ride, the Lib Dems would do well to accept the amendment too. We have heard about creating opportunities and,

“the largest social enterprise sector in the world”.

Last year, the Secretary of State said there was,

“also opportunity because across government we are going to open up to new providers, and the voluntary sector is at the heart of that”.

That is what he actually said, before this Bill was drafted. I know you can get carried away on conference platforms, but as the Minister you are, at the end of the day, responsible. We have probably all done it, but the fact of the matter is that is what was said, and it could be held to be misleading. The amendment, which has come to me via Social Enterprise UK, is a lifeboat. It does not require anything, it says “may”, and it goes to the heart of what the Minister said about not trying to do it for ideological reasons. Clause 20, as drafted, may be used to prohibit any interventions that support the voluntary and social enterprise sectors. The fact that it can be used for that purpose is bad enough in itself and undermines the point which the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, made earlier on. It would be a disaster. Therefore, the amendment, which has been looked at by those outside, would be of assistance.

Why do we want the amendment? In the previous debate, we heard the well rehearsed arguments for social enterprise and the voluntary sector providing a greater share of public services. They were the implications of the Secretary of State’s words at the conference last year. They are recognised and proven, and it is a trend that crosses all political parties. That point must be taken on board if the credibility of Ministers is to be maintained. Indeed, all parties in the House and next door support the passage of the Private Member’s Bill tabled by Chris White MP that would open up public service markets and require commissioners to consider how they might promote or improve the economic, social or environmental well-being of their local area through contracts. The parties are supporting that Bill in the other place. Are they kidding anyone or are they being genuine about support for a mixed economy, because this Bill, as drafted, could stop the mixed economy and stop any changes? I am not proposing my amendment for ideological reasons.

There are about 62,000 social enterprises in the UK. They contribute some £24 billion to the UK economy, and they need to be treated seriously, responsibly and as adults. Of these, a third operate in the healthcare sector. By the way, I am reliably informed that Circle is not one of them—whatever might have been put over as spin by the Department of Health. Add to that the vast number of voluntary and community organisations that are providing a huge range of health and social care, and you can see that knocking out their continued development—I repeat, continued development—would be a disaster for the market and most importantly for service users.

If there is to be a competitive market, and I do not argue against that, then it can operate only if there is a fully functioning market. We do not have a fully functioning market at present—it is embryonic. That is the difference and that is the point that did not come across in the Minister’s response to the earlier debate. Healthcare markets in England are, by any definition, in their infancy with regard to supply and demand sides. That must be the case as regards this Government, the previous Government and the one before that. Where both supply and demand sides are underdeveloped, I believe that open competition will result in high barriers to entry, limited choice and compromised quality and outcomes. We have seen a few examples of that in the past few years. A small number of large firms will dominate and there will not be the innovation or value that introducing competition is designed to bring about. There has to be another way of looking at this.

Knowledge barriers, capacity barriers and structural barriers put social enterprises, and voluntary and community groups, at a disadvantage. Knowledge and understanding of the social enterprise and voluntary sectors by the public sector has improved but remains particularly weak in the healthcare sector. Without understanding the sector, commissioning may be designed in such a way that precludes its involvement. It will be all right for the smart lawyers to argue about the way it was done, but the consequences are snuffed out before they start. That is the difficulty we are seeking to overcome.

On capacity, we know that a lot of community-based organisations could play, and currently do play, a huge role in improving healthcare through early intervention, community-level delivery, advocacy and behaviour change, but they lack the capacity to engage with competitive tendering, and alternative approaches specifically designed for them can make a huge difference. The Bill as currently drafted may—I repeat, may—prevent commissioners from feeling that they have the power to do this. That is the point. If we had a fully functioning market, the situation would be slightly different.

Structurally, we know from the central Surrey case—as has been repeated several times—and others that barriers to entry can be set structurally too high for many social enterprises. We are not on a level playing field. Not everyone is a big firm or a multinational. That is not the purpose of the exercise, which is to allow 1,000 flowers to bloom in the interests of the patients. That is what it is about. However, the fact is that the entry level can be set structurally too high for many social enterprises and voluntary organisations that lack the ability to raise the same levels of capital as private organisations but are often better placed when it comes to quality of care. That is the other side of the balance. They reinvest their profits into the organisations, which means that their balance sheets always appear less strong. It is an inevitable consequence but a strength when it comes to service delivery.

The Bill must make provision for the continued development of these groups and certain interventions need to be made; without this we will not see the realisation of a truly plural ambition for these reforms. As has already been said, where would we be without the hospice movement, community drug and alcohol projects, the range of mental health work and so on? The innovation and user-centred services will disappear to the detriment of all. The multinationals do not come with that ethos to start with and what is really wrong with Clause 20 is that it assumes an already existing level playing field where there is an established mixed market. I challenge that assumption which underlines this clause and, although I would not dream of questioning him personally, I challenge the Minister that if he is serious about what he said in answer to the last debate, he must be prepared to come back with something in the Bill which does not snuff out social enterprise in the way that this Bill, currently structured, will do. I beg to move.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I speak in support of my noble friend Lord Rooker’s amendment. I pose a couple of questions and add a couple of facts for the Minister. I will not repeat what I said on the previous group of amendments. I speak from two perspectives; first, as a former chairman of a number of voluntary organisations competing for public service contracts; and, secondly, as the former Minister involved in the setting up of entities at the centre to facilitate the growth of social enterprises and voluntary organisations to participate in NHS service provision.

I want to mention some of the things which were set up at the centre because you could not rely on people at local level to actually provide this kind of help to the voluntary and social enterprise sector. Can the Minister say whether these initiatives will continue in this brave new world we are going into? The first one was the Department of Health voluntary sector and social enterprise programme, which was set up to maximise,

“the extent to which third sector organisations are able to achieve their full potential”.

That was a central unit aiming to help people to develop their capacity. There was the social enterprise investment fund, which provides investment to social enterprises to start up, grow and develop in order to deliver NHS services. The third I would mention is the health and social care volunteering fund—both the local and national programmes—which supports volunteering in health and social care.

Those are three areas where an initiative had to be taken well away from the local level to ensure there was some capacity building of social enterprises and voluntary organisations. If those are disbanded in the guise of leaving it up to clinical commissioning groups, it is very difficult to see how those sectors will be able to participate.

Now briefly, I turn to my experiences as a chairman of voluntary organisations. Voluntary organisations simply do not have the capacity to go at risk for entry into new markets without some guarantees. They often do not have the working capital or access to loan facilities because there is no guarantee of the revenue streams that would fund those loans. Unless they happen to have very large reserves, which many do not, they cannot easily enter that market without a big brother to help them over their first steps. I cannot see how we can move in this direction without an amendment of the kind that my noble friend has proposed, and which has backing it some capacity to help these sectors grow when the need arises rather than just leaving it all to clinical commissioning groups.

I hope that the Minister can give us some reassurances about how that capacity-building capability can continue to be preserved and developed because, if it is not, we will see a growing volume of partnerships between the private sector and the voluntary sector, because they have the capacity to borrow money and provide the working capital to help those organisations to play their role in developing services in the NHS.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

I have already outlined a number of funds that are held centrally to enable that to happen. That is happening at the moment. I am pleased to say that we have had very encouraging take-up of those funds. The Social Enterprise Investment Fund has been in place for some time. What I cannot do at the moment is say how much money will be available next year. A lot of these funds will continue in the next year and we will be making announcements in due course. However, we are clear that there is a role for this type of lever to ensure that social enterprises and voluntary sector organisations can be supported in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, indicated was important—and I agree with him.

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, if this was in the Bill, no one would have to take any notice of it at all. That is the reality. I am very grateful to those who have supported my amendment. There will be plenty of people in the sector watching the debate, metaphorically and reading Hansard, who will wonder what on earth we are doing. I realise it suits the Government to have this embarrassing debate on the twilight shift because that is very inconvenient for them. To be honest, I did not hear anything from the Minister that showed that he took on board the central points I made. Notwithstanding his answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, I will test the opinion of the House on this.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Murphy]

My Lords, by now it will be no surprise to the Opposition that I do not support this amendment. It seems to be an extraordinary pedalling-backwards amendment. I ought to remind colleagues that foundation trusts already have the ability to negotiate local terms and conditions of service, so at least two-thirds of mental health trusts and half of all acute trusts already have it. They have not used those freedoms for very sound reasons, but there will come a time when gradually they will want to do so. It seems extraordinary that we would seek to remove those freedoms. I say to those who are anxious about pushing pay downwards that that has not happened at all with consultant grades of pay, where freedoms have led to much greater flexibility and a real and genuine recognition of the rarity of some consultant specialties in some areas, so it is not a good idea to remove that pay bargaining and that flexibility locally.

I do not see the Agenda for Change as being successful. Yes, it was better than the Whitley Council, which had 250 different scales and you did not know where you were; it was pretty grim. However, Agenda for Change has not been implemented with the learning and skills framework alongside in any more than 50 per cent of trusts. It has not led to productivity gains. It led to an uplift of pay but did not actually deliver what employers wanted it to deliver.

In my view, a good employment framework for local organisations must take account of local economic circumstances, the social demographic mix and the skills available in the local communities. Therefore, it must give local employers greater flexibility, as part of the autonomy of those organisations, and the ability to move away gradually from the situation that we have at the moment of profound skill shortages of nurses in some areas and an oversupply of some skills in other areas. If we could be more sensitive to local circumstances, we would get better values and rewards for staff in the NHS. I therefore very much support the Government’s approach to this and do not support this amendment.

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, I intervene briefly in this debate. It also gives me the opportunity to apologise to the House. I removed Amendments 35 and 36 at 10 pm on Monday because I could not guarantee to be here at 3.30 pm today. I apologise if it caused confusion, but I could not be here today at that time.

On Amendment 45, I would like to know the Government’s position, because the noble Baroness said that the Government maintain their position. In some ways, the temptation for fragmentation is enormous. I am not sure whether the NHS is still the largest employer in Europe. As a totality, I think it probably is. However, we are talking here about England—or are we? The issue of devolution is crucial. I served for 12 months as a direct rule Minister in Northern Ireland, and I came across problems there relating to people doing the same job here. Also, of course, moving around Whitehall, as the Minister probably discovered himself, you go into departments and meet people doing more or less exactly the same job on vastly different salaries. The temptation of fragmentation was accepted at the centre of government, and that has led to significant problems of mobility for people moving even around Whitehall.

I am no expert on the NHS—I only know it as a patient and a family member of patients—but as far as I am concerned, it is a team effort. It is a bit like the argument we had with the firefighters. You are sending people out on a team to do a job, and they are not going out on different rates of pay, different pensions and different contracts. The one way to keep it cohesive is to maintain national pay bargaining. It does not mean that one size fits all, but the fact is, as my noble friend who kicked this off said, the industrial relations implications are enormous, given the potential for disputes that nobody wants. A dispute is created because of a festering sore on something else. The facility is not there if you have a system of national pay bargaining for healthcare staff.

The amendment refers to,

“services for the improvement of public health”.

Quite clearly, there will be transfers of public health staff who are working in local government and who are perhaps working to and with NHS rates of pay. That in itself will be a difficulty if people are going to work with colleagues in local government under a different scheme. While the Government take account of that, the temptation will be to level down to local government to get one size fits all at the local level. I do not think that that temptation ought to be accepted.

As for the issue of regional break-up, there was an argument about this many years ago when there was an attempt to pay teachers more who were prepared to go and work in the inner cities. You can have a local premium, and you can do some local work where there are factors, but in the case of nursing staff, particularly the lower-paid, and their ability to move around the country for career opportunities and to move their family, they are working within one service. Everybody knows that it is the NHS—the “N” is still there—but they are faced with the issue that, for the same job in the next region or the next but one region, they may be paid up to 10 per cent less and their pension and terms and conditions may be different. That could cause enormous problems.

I only spoke in the mental health debate last week, but the overall theme of the Bill and the many allegations that have been sent to noble Lords, of which the Minister will be aware, are that this is a grand plan—not now, but in the end—to fragment and break up the National Health Service, a plot hatched in the 1980s by Members of the other House who are currently members of the Government. The introduction of market forces into both the provision of care and other providers, and the temptation then to break up national pay bargaining to fit the new regime, which is supposed to be patient-oriented, is an enormous pressure on the Government. Ministers will be told that this will make sense at the local level. It may be asking a lot for the Minister to give a definitive response to this tonight, but the issues of industrial relations and pay bargaining in the NHS have to be settled well before the passage of this Bill, if only because during the period of implementation we do not, as my noble friend said, want discord among the staff as they implement what will be, I accept, many positive changes in the Bill.

The other issue that has to be raised, because we are talking about services to patients, is the pay and bargaining within service providers as the issue gets broken up. There will be some debates about charities, the third sector and social enterprise involvement where industrial relations and pay bargaining may be affected. However, there are other issues relating to the private sector doing jobs using NHS staff. It offers mobility as teams move. People do not have one place of work but may move between two or three different establishments, one of which may be the NHS, in which they may be based. They are expected to perform as part of the team locally, providing the services to patients in the round. What happens to pay bargaining in those situations?

If we allow fragmentation at a local level, it would be wise for the Minister to say that the status quo will be maintained. I accept that the status quo has flexibility built in, as the noble Baroness said, but it is a flexibility that does not appear to have been used. This is a bit like the Scottish Government. They had the flexibility to put up income tax by 5 per cent, but it has never been done. This is the reality. You put in that flexibility but for various reasons there are barriers to actually using it. In this case, the evidence is that the flexibility has not been used except perhaps in extreme circumstances. I do not think that it would be a good idea if we went down this route. I think there is enough evidence to keep people working together as a team with a national perspective that allows job mobility and promotion without people being afraid of moving within the same service because of the pay and conditions. I do not think that it is a good idea, and I hope the Minister will be able to take a more positive approach to this issue, even if he can only state it in general terms.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, seeks to impose on the Secretary of State,

“a duty to maintain a national pay and bargaining system for healthcare staff, to cover those staff providing”,

both NHS and public health services. This would cover not only existing NHS organisations but any organisation providing services to the NHS. The amendment, as worded, goes against the Government’s view that employers are best placed to determine the most appropriate pay and reward package to ensure that they recruit and retain the workforce that they need.

Our clear view is that it would be inappropriate to require independent and voluntary sector providers to adhere to NHS pay when NHS foundation trusts, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, rightly pointed out, already have such freedoms. The Government believe that to deliver the best care for patients, this freedom should be extended to all NHS organisations. I also take the noble Baroness’s point that while foundation trusts have the power to apply local terms and conditions for all staff, medical, clinical and administrative, very few trusts exercise those freedoms. There are around 400 trusts, and only one foundation trust—Southend—has departed from Agenda for Change, and the differences that it has negotiated are marginal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rooker]

For the public health directors, who will be the employer? Will it be the local authority? In the sense that you can pay a director of education or children’s services market rates around local government, will that be the same for the directors of public health, so that their salaries vary around the country? It would be the beginnings of a new service, in that sense. Do we know the answer to that?

[Earl Howe]

They will be employed by local authorities. It is too soon to say to the noble Lord what the pay grade of those people will be, but clearly they will be very senior officers within the local authority. Yes, strictly speaking, if there is freedom to set pay locally, there could be some variations around the country, but I would envisage that the pay grade of directors of public health will gravitate towards a certain figure, whatever that may be.

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, I speak as somebody who supports Mind and as somebody with a brother I followed who had acute mental illness and died from it two years ago. I have listened to noble Lords’ speeches, and that of the noble Baroness who moved the amendment, on this amendment and the consequential Amendments 105 and 180. I agree with everything that they have said. It is important to highlight the fact that health and illness include both mental and physical aspects; to me that is not problematic. However, the question I want to ask is, do we still need to speak of them in almost separate categories? The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, referred to my anxiety; namely, that because we have separated out mental and physical illness, would inserting the words “physical and mental” in relation to illness continue to exacerbate the problem? Is it necessary to put “physical and mental” in this part of the Bill, or will the noble Earl tell us where that matter can be spelt out elsewhere, not necessarily in the Bill?

Noble Lords will probably say of my next point, “We would expect him to say that”. I am one of those who believe that human beings are psychosomatic spiritual entities. The element of the spiritual well-being of people is not on the face of the Bill but I am absolutely convinced that, as it stands, my needs would be taken care of because it talks about,

“the prevention, diagnosis or treatment of illness”.

Illness can be physical or mental but it can also be spiritual. I will not detain noble Lords long but when I first became a vicar of a parish in south London I was invited into a home because somebody said that there was a presence there. I did not understand that phrase but I went into the home where there was a young girl who had not been able to move for nearly three weeks. The GP, a psychiatrist and a psychologist had visited the house. Sometimes the girl shouted a lot in the middle of the night. I went into the house and asked how the girl had got into that difficult state. Somebody said that they had been to a witches’ coven that night where a goat had been sacrificed and the young girl was absolutely petrified that she would be sacrificed next. She could not speak apart from shouting. Doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists had attended the girl. All that I could do was to say a prayer in that little house, anoint the girl with oil and light a candle. I left and received a telephone call later to say that the young girl was no longer terrified and had started to speak. That was not mental or physical illness; there was something in her spirit that needed to be set free.

I am content that the Bill covers all those aspects of the human person simply by using the word “illness” and through establishing a well-being and health board, which suggests to me that that board has a responsibility to ensure that physical, mental and spiritual well-being are taken care of. After all, in our schools these days we emphasise not only the personal, but the physical, mental and spiritual dimensions of a person. Hospital chaplains will tell you that the work they do does not address purely a person’s physical and mental aspects. I do not want to divide up a human person. Therefore, I believe that the Bill covers people’s needs without inserting the words “physical and mental”.

[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, on balance I agree with the most reverend Primate. I speak purely as a lay person but I am very happy to support the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I have no medical training. One almost has to declare that as an interest in this debate. However, mental illness can lead to physical illness and massive social exclusion.

I want to share my experience with the House as it is as relevant today as it was at the time to which I refer. Back in 2003, the then Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister commissioned the Social Exclusion Unit to carry out work on how we could attack the cycle of deprivation associated with mental illness. The report was published in 2004 with a 27-point action plan. At that time it was a rule of procedure that a couple of Ministers who were not involved in the matter on a departmental basis chaired the steering group that oversaw the work. I was one of the two Ministers. The other was Rosie Winterton, who is now the Labour Chief Whip in the other place. We launched the report at the headquarters of BT. We did that simply because one of the BT occupational medical staff was on one of the relevant overarching boards, but BT’s record as an employer in relation to the mental health of their employees was absolutely first class. Therefore, we were happy to use the BT headquarters for the launch.

Two departments later, as I travelled round Whitehall departments, I wondered what had happened to the 27-point action plan. These things are developed but the Ministers and civil servants involved with them move on. The relevant civil servants were very surprised to hear from a Minister who had had such a tenuous connection with the work he was asking about. The noble Baroness opposite is aware of this as she was involved with the Social Exclusion Unit. The civil servants told me that the action plan was still in place. I have not familiarised myself with what has happened to it over the past couple of years and I would like to be given an update on it. I would like to share with noble Lords some of the points contained in the factsheet that the Social Exclusion Unit published as they relate to some of the myths that have been mentioned. We need to expose those myths and meet them head on.

Four myths are exposed in the Social Exclusion Unit’s factsheet. I will not detain noble Lords for long as this has been a fascinating debate. The first myth is:

“People with mental health problems are dangerous and violent”.

However, the factsheet adds:

“People with mental health problems are more likely to be the victims rather than the perpetrators of violence. Less than 5 per cent of people who kill a stranger have symptoms of mental illness”.

The second myth states:

“Mental health problems are rare”.

We have heard that myth being busted in tonight’s debate. Indeed, the factsheet states:

“Common mental health problems affect up to one in six of the general population at any one time. Almost everyone will know someone who has had mental health problems at some point in their lives”.

The third myth states:

“People with mental health problems are incapable of work”.

However, the factsheet states:

“US research found that up to 58 per cent of adults with severe and enduring mental health problems are able to work with the right support”.

I will give an example of that in a moment.

The fourth myth states:

“People with mental health problems do not want to work”.

However, the factsheet states:

“35 per cent of people with mental health problems who are economically inactive would like to work, compared to 28 per cent of those with other health conditions. Many successful people have had mental health problems”.

In fact, as part of the exercise, I went for a day and a half around London to look at projects manned exclusively by people with mental illnesses. One was at a restaurant, and the only person involved in the restaurant who did not have a mental health problem was the chef, who had come down from a Park Lane hotel to do the training. Everyone else in the kitchen and the front office had a mental health problem. In fact, nine months later, I took my private office staff for their Christmas lunch there. My visit had been in April and I said, “If I am still around at Christmas we will come here for our private office lunch”. Indeed, we did that. When visiting the three projects, I was driven around by one of the patients. I have never felt as safe in a van driven by anyone else. I had no problem whatever. The idea that normal activity cannot take place or that you cannot be included socially is, of course, a myth.

I want to share one of the other aspects that we put out in a factsheet on this issue. The factsheet states:

“Nearly one-fifth of respondents to the Social Exclusion Unit’s consultation argued that mental health services needed to become more socially focused”—

and more holistic. The factsheet continued:

“GPs issue sickness certificates when they assess that a person cannot perform their usual work. Mental health problems are more likely to be listed on the sickness certificates in the most deprived areas of the country”.

That is another fact that we must take on board.

“It is important to ensure appropriate pathways of care between primary and secondary services; up to 28 per cent of referrals from primary care to specialist services are inappropriate”.

I will not read out all the facts, but shall quote the final two. It is stated:

“The range of services is more limited in rural areas, with specialist services often absent”.

That is the reality of many services, but this is the one that we are dealing with. It continues:

“In 2002, 87 per cent of rural households were 4km away from a GP surgery”.

My final example states:

“A person with schizophrenia can expect, on average, to live for ten years less than someone without a mental health problem, mainly because of physical health problems”.

One therefore has to deal with: stigma and discrimination—and we have heard examples of that; the role of healthcare professionals, which we dealt with in the factsheets relating to employment, welfare and benefits; and the role of families and carers, in particular. I shall leave alone the criminal justice system and other issues. Putting the amendments in the Bill is simple—it does not cost anything in terms of money; it should not upset the parliamentary draftsmen; but it sends a massive signal to the whole structure of the National Health Service that Parliament has highlighted and identified this issue, which relates to both Houses. We do not want it to be put in a backwater. We do not want it to be the first thing that is cut. People have to be treated holistically, because we know that if their mental health problems are not treated properly, physical problems start and we then get the queues at accident and emergency—and other pressures on GPs.

I am therefore very happy to support the amendments in the names of noble Lords from all around the Committee. The work of this Government, which I applaud, was mentioned, and I have provided examples of the work of the previous Government where we were trying to deal with the relationship between social exclusion and mental health. It went right across the board—every government department had a role in this. The issue should not be left just to the health department or the National Health Service. It must be dealt with properly by every department—the economic ones as well as the health ones.

Nursing: Elderly and Vulnerable Patients

Lord Rooker Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, we do value the contributions that SENs provide, those who are still in practice. It is certainly the case that the NMC no longer approves programmes for nurses on part 2 of the register and there are no plans to reintroduce educational programmes to part 2 of the register. What we have done is to develop guidance on widening the entry gate to preregistration programmes for those individuals who show the necessary values and behaviours but who otherwise do not possess the traditional academic qualifications. I am aware of the report that my noble friend mentioned. Sheila Try has written to me and I have asked the department to consider the recommendations that she has made.

[Lord Rooker]

Does the Minister agree that it is a very valuable report? If I may remind him, on 31 March in this House when we had a debate on nursing care I asked him if he would meet Sheila Try. Following the question asked by the noble Baroness, I respectfully ask him to study the latest report by this trained nurse, who makes very valid points about what has gone wrong with the training of nurses in the last 25 years.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, from my reading of the report —and I have looked through it—I think there is much there that we can pick up very usefully, so I agree.