Health and Social Care Bill

Earl Howe Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner]

The noble Earl is taking this clause out of the Committee stage, so far as I understand his proposal. If the strategy is to take clauses out when the going gets rough, that does not seem to be in keeping with the spirit and behaviour of this House.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I have no desire to take this clause out of the Committee proceedings. These proceedings are continuing. We have heard the noble Lord and his views, and I look forward to hearing other noble Lords. I am not in the least desirous of inhibiting debate on this clause, which I think is very valuable. However, perhaps noble Lords will consider that, in view of the undertaking that I gave on 2 November, there is a certain amount that need not be said today because I have undertaken to look at this clause on a cross-party basis and with an open mind. It is a clause that the Government were and are satisfied with and they believe that it can stand as worded without amendment. However, I appear to be accused of being too concessionary on this. It is a case of the Government being damned if we do one thing and damned if we do the opposite.

I felt that my offer to the Committee was helpful. I think that there is concern around the Chamber about this matter and I can only repeat my offer to look at that concern and, if we can reach an agreement, to put beyond doubt the fact that these clauses do what I believe many noble Lords wish them to do. I hope that in that spirit the noble Lord, Lord Warner, will agree that, while we can debate the clause today for as long as we wish, the offer is there on the table from the Government to engage in cross-party discussions with a view to reaching consensus.

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[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I, too, think this has been a very valuable debate and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to it. I do mean that. Ministers always like to hear support, and I have had some of that today, but at the same time no self-respecting Minister would wish to brush aside the kinds of concerns that have been voiced this afternoon about the effect of this clause. I certainly do not wish to do that; hence my offer to engage in discussions with those noble Lords whose concerned voices have been heard.

Following the consensus that we reached at last week’s Committee session on that proposal, I express the hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment at the end of this debate and that we will use the time between now and Report to reflect on the concerns that we have heard expressed about Clause 4—and, indeed, on Clause 1 last week. I recall from discussions in the Chamber on 2 November that the Committee had little appetite to hear me dwell on Clause 1 or the amendments to it. I am therefore going to keep my remarks brief. However, I hope that the Committee will find it helpful if I provide a bit of context to this clause.

As I said at Second Reading, our proposals for the NHS involve a fundamental shift in the balance of power away from politicians and on to patients themselves, as well as to doctors and other health professionals. This is not an abdication or divestment of power by politicians but a shift. I think that we all agree that empowering front-line organisations offers enormous potential to unleash innovation and to drive up the efficiency and quality of services. The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, to my mind, said it all. That is why the Bill retains the key powers that the Secretary of State needs in order to remain properly accountable but removes his current sweeping powers to delegate and give directions to other bodies.

Instead, the Bill sets out roles and responsibilities in primary legislation that local commissioning will be carried out by clinical commissioning groups—with their own distinct statutory duties, set by Parliament—rather than by PCTs acting under the direction of the Minister of the day. Ministers will have specific but extensive powers to set requirements for commissioners, in particular through the mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board and through regulations known as standing rules. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, observed, I am sure that we will give some thought to the impact of the autonomy duty when, in future Committee sessions, we debate the clauses that give the Secretary of State these powers.

However, there is a clear need for Ministers to have sufficient flexibility to respond to changing circumstances in the health service. Given that, there is very little limit on what or how many objectives or requirements the Secretary of State can impose. That leaves open the risk that a Government—or indeed the board, which has an equivalent duty at Clause 20—could introduce process targets or burdensome rules that inappropriately interfere with front-line clinical decision-making. That is the last thing anyone wants. To my mind, this makes it vital to have some kind of countervailing force to establish the principle that Ministers should use their powers carefully. We believe that the autonomy duty provides this important safeguard, enabling organisations to act in the best interests of patients, free from the risk that Ministers or the board revert to a command-and-control style in order to achieve their objectives. The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, put the point very well.

The duty is therefore an important symbol of the shift of power that the Bill seeks to achieve. I agree with my noble friend Lord Marks that the autonomy duty must be subsidiary to the general duties of the Secretary of State, including, in particular, his duties under Clause 1 of the Bill to promote a comprehensive health service and to exercise his functions so as to secure the provision of services. Although we believe that the duty of autonomy would not inhibit the Secretary of State in exercising his overarching powers and duties as set out in Clause 1, I recognise, as I say, that there are concerns about legal clarity. I therefore welcome the prospect of further discussions with my noble friend and other noble Lords outside this Chamber as to how we might put this matter beyond doubt.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington]

My Lords, I apologise for interrupting during the Minister’s conclusion but I hope this will be helpful. I want to explore whether he can just help me by describing what he sees as the scope of these discussions, in terms of the clauses to be discussed. As the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, pointed out for example in his very helpful intervention when he made passing reference to it, the proposed new Section 13F of the 2006 Act, at Clause 20 in the Bill, is very relevant. It may be helpful to the House to know that the Constitution Committee was invited to look at this again. We have met since the last day of Committee and have agreed to look again at Clauses 1, 4, 10 and 20 precisely because of that interrelated matter. Could the Minister help us on that?

[Earl Howe]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. As she has indicated, there is certainly a read-across from Clause 4 into Clause 20, and I readily accept the suggestion that we should factor in issues that emerge from Clause 10.

I am clear that a successful process will be one that can take account of views from all political parties and the Cross Benches. As well as hearing in full from those Peers, many of whom have put their names to amendments and have become particular experts on this issue, there is also an implicit legal perspective to this and I believe that an important building block will be to engage with the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House and other legal experts in this House on these points. To start that dialogue, I propose to meet next week with a number of noble Lords, if they are willing, to explore the process for going forward. Following that, I will write again to all Peers setting out the proposed process in more detail. I hope that that is helpful.

I have very clear answers for the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Warner, and other noble Lords to the concerns that they have raised. However, for the reasons that I have set out, if they will bear with me, I shall refrain now from providing a detailed commentary on the amendments in this group. I hope that, with the prospect of future discussions that will factor in the valuable points in this debate, the noble Lord will feel able, for the time being, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, there is a film showing in local cinemas called “We Need to Talk About Kevin”; I think that this excellent debate has shown that we do indeed need to talk about Clause 4. I do not intend to comment on all the excellent contributions that have been made. I just want to say two things in conclusion.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, has provided an excellent forensic analysis of what is wrong with this clause. My personal view is that he has holed this clause below the water-line. I hope that the Minister, in conducting these cross-party discussions, will really keep in the front of his mind the easy solution that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, has helpfully given to the Committee, which is that we simply drop the clause.

Secondly, I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, that I do not disagree with her about many of the issues that she raised. However, if she is really concerned about reducing political interference in decisions on service reconfiguration, I would direct her towards Amendment 304 in the names of myself, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. There is room for another name on that amendment, which will indeed actually reduce political interference in this area. So I commend it to her. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate, and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and other noble Lords who have spoken in it very persuasively about the importance of research.

At heart, there are three particular questions that we put to the noble Earl, Lord Howe. First, how is funding for research to be protected? Secondly, how are we to ensure that strong leadership will be given from the centre? The third is the question of levers. What levers are there in this system to ensure that research is given a prominent place?

First, there can be no doubt whatsoever, as the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said, of the direct link between research and the quality of patient care. That must be at the forefront of our consideration. Secondly, he is also right about public health. Research into public health, evidence and epidemiology is vital if we are to improve the overall health of people living in this country. Thirdly, we have the contribution that research makes to UK plc, and specifically the contribution of the pharmaceutical industry.

When I chaired the competitive taskforce with the industry some years ago, we found that out of the 100 most important branded medicines at the time, 30 had been developed in the UK. Although the UK share of global spend on pharmaceuticals was about 2 per cent, our R&D contribution, including that of the industry, was about 10 per cent. I suspect that those figures have slipped a little since that report, but there is no question that the pharmaceutical industry in particular makes a huge contribution to our economy. We cannot be complacent about that in the future.

On the question of leadership, I was fortunate to be present at the recent annual conference of the NHS Confederation. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, that, “They would say that, wouldn’t they”, when it comes to this rather foolish idea that somehow if you just leave it to them everything will be all right, but I recall a speech made by Dame Sally Davies in which she talked about the importance of research. She argued that the NHS itself has to make a greater contribution to research. This was not about funding; this was about NHS organisations recognising that research was important. It was a brilliant speech. It is essential that we continue to have that kind of national leadership in research funding.

There is a big question about what exactly the duty of the Secretary of State will be with regard to research if we end up with a highly devolved structure in which the levers left to the Secretary of State will clearly be limited. It is clear that the day-to-day concerns of most people in the NHS are going to be diverted into a market-orientated culture, where, frankly, the kind of collaboration that research requires across NHS organisations may well be regarded as collusive behaviour by economic regulators and the competition authorities.

I speak with some experience of economic regulation. Ofgem was the last economic regulator with which I had regular dealings as Minister for Energy. What struck me was that regulators’ concerns are much more about day-to-day issues than they are about the long-term viability of a particular industry. We found, with Ofgem, that we had to change the law to make sure that it had some regard to future customers rather than simply being concerned about the actual price of energy to the customers of today. If we have regulators whose main concern is about driving day-to-day competition, I wonder where issues of research come into play.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the primary duty of Monitor, as the noble Lord will have observed, is to patients. That is its overriding duty.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Yes my Lords, but so was the overriding duty of Ofgem to the customer. The problem is how a regulator defines that responsibility. Since the Government are intent on this very foolish drive into competition, I believe that the risk is that the regulator will also be driven into thinking that that is its most important aim.

There are some real questions here, which I put to the noble Earl, about ensuring that there is sufficient concern, investment and leadership on the question of research. I would also ask the noble Earl how we protect and ring-fence the research budget. I ask him to think of the national Commissioning Board, faced with a hard winter, huge public concern and political pressure about funding, and the temptation to dip into the research budget. We all know that that happens. My noble friend Lord Warner and I were debating earlier who was responsible when there was real pressure on the training commissions. I thought it was my noble friend, actually, but we can continue to debate that.

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I know that this has been another long debate, but I think that nothing is more important in this country than health-based research. Tonight, our concern is not so much about the wording of the amendments as about hearing how the Government will ensure that we continue to prioritise research in the future.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I agree that this has been an absolutely excellent debate and I have listened very carefully to all the contributions.

Clause 5 places a duty on the Secretary of State, for the first time, to have regard to the need to promote research within the health service. It also places equivalent duties on the Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning groups. The duty applies to research into matters relevant to the health service—I shall come on to that phrase later—and the use within the health service of evidence obtained from research.

I turn straight away to the amendments, beginning with Amendments 39 and 199ZA together, as they make the same changes to the research duties on the Secretary of State and clinical commissioning groups. Amendment 39, tabled by my noble friend Lord Willis and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, would require the Secretary of State to promote research within the health service and to promote the use of the evidence obtained from that research. The Bill as drafted requires the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to promote research in the health service. This means that the Secretary of State must bear in mind the importance of research when exercising any of his functions and consider how the exercise of those functions might in itself promote research or how it might influence the promotion of research by others. I have reflected on these two amendments and I can tell noble Lords that I sympathise with the arguments behind them. Of course, I fully recognise the importance of ensuring that research is promoted within the health service. Therefore, I now give a commitment, following this debate, to undertake a closer consideration of this duty.

Amendment 40, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Patel, requires the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to develop research findings for clinical application in the health service. I agree with the noble Lords that this emphasis is important. We need to ensure that, wherever possible, research outcomes are translated into clinical practice. This is how the health service moves forward. The noble Lord, Lord Walton, as so often, was completely right in all that he said on that subject. As the duty is currently drafted, the Secretary of State is already required to have regard to the need to promote the use of evidence obtained from research. Therefore, we believe that this amendment would duplicate the existing duty.

Amendment 40 also refers to the need to ensure that staff have the relevant training and support where new technologies are introduced. We have brought forward an amendment to introduce a duty on the Secretary of State to exercise his functions so as to secure an effective system for education and training within the health service. The word “effective” is there for a purpose. Similarly, the NHS constitution makes a public pledge that all NHS providers should provide all their staff with access to appropriate training for their jobs, together with line management support to succeed. Therefore, again, in my view this amendment is unnecessary.

It may also help to reassure noble Lords if I refer to our consultation document, An Information Revolution. In this, we state that information management and IT capability are essential if we are to achieve improved healthcare outcomes. Our forthcoming information strategy will recognise the importance of informatics skills within the health service, and I hope that this will reassure noble Lords—in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Warner—that we are fully aware of the need to ensure that staff are able to maximise the benefits that new technologies can offer.

I now turn to Amendment 41, also tabled by my noble friend Lord Willis and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. This amendment would place an additional requirement on the Secretary of State to promote research into public health issues. Again, I agree with the principle behind the amendment—it is indeed true that advances in public health are shaped by research and evidence, and the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, gave us a number of examples. In fact, this amendment can be dealt with quite simply. The duty on the Secretary of State, the board and clinical commissioning groups to have regard to the need to promote research applies to “the health service”. That phrase encompasses both the NHS and public health services, and therefore the duties already apply to public health.

There are other clauses in the Bill that focus specifically on research into health protection. Clause 8 lists research and other steps,

“for advancing knowledge and understanding”,

as examples of action that the Secretary of State may take under his wider duty in relation to protecting public health. Clause 14(13) expressly gives the Secretary of State, the NHS and local authorities the power to commission or assist research.

My noble friend Lord Willis asked me how the duty on the Secretary of State would be fulfilled in practice. It may be helpful if I briefly set out the work that is going on beyond the Bill to ensure that research is embedded in the new system. The department has recently published a document setting out initial proposals for the NHS Commissioning Board. Among other things, it emphasises that, to fulfil its purpose, the board should support,

“a culture which promotes research and innovation”.

There is also a clear indication in the department’s document, Developing Clinical Commissioning Groups: Towards Authorisation, that clinical commissioning groups will be expected to demonstrate how they will promote research. These documents can be found on the Department of Health’s website. I should be very happy to expand on this in a letter to my noble friend and other noble Lords.

In this area the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked what the levers for research would be, and that question was echoed by a number of other noble Lords. I will expand on this in writing, but there are a number of parallel levers across government that will do this, ensuring that the UK’s commercial and industrial landscape is, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, rightly emphasised, an attractive place to do research, and that we do not neglect any aspect of research—basic, translational and clinical—so it is about research across the piece. It is also about the pricing of medicines, about our skills base as a country and about encouraging the concept of clustering, linking universities and the NHS and industry. We have announced recently a large sum of money which will go towards biomedical research clusters and units. It is also about deregulation, streamlining research and creating the Health Research Authority to do that, the drivers in the NHS such as the tariff and, not least, holding bodies in the NHS—CCGs no less than others—accountable for the duties that are in this Bill. Accountability is the counterpart to the concept of autonomy.

I cannot say much to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, about the tariff. We do not envisage a separate tariff for research, but we will ensure that the systems and processes that the board and CCGs use for commissioning patient care ensure that research is supported and that treatment costs are funded by the NHS. This will specifically include a tariff. It is essential that the tariff for patient care incorporates the costs of patients who are taking part in research, and we will ensure that it does.

I turn to Amendment 42, which was tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Ribeiro. This amendment seeks to safeguard the funding of research by placing a requirement on the Secretary of State to ensure that there is adequate funding for research and the application of that research to the health service. The amendment also aims to ensure that clinical commissioning groups will fund the treatment of patients involved in research. I share the desire to protect research funding—as Minister for research, how could I not do so? My noble friend Lord Willis need have no fears about our intent in this area. The Government have signalled their clear and strong support for research by increasing the research budget of the Department of Health in real terms over the current spending review period.

I heard from many noble Lords the concern about the research responsibility for the NIHR transferring across to the NHS Commissioning Board and how the budget could be protected in that event. I do not know where this idea has come from, but it is not accurate. The budget for the National Institute for Health Research is centrally held within the Department of Health and will remain so. The budget for research commissioning will not transfer to the NHS Commissioning Board. Dame Sally Davies, the Chief Medical Officer, retains a responsibility for the National Institute for Health Research and for the budget that is allocated to it to commission research. I hope that that reassures my noble friend and the noble Lords, Lord Walton, Lord Warner, Lord Turnberg and Lord Rea, and all others who have expressed worries on that score.

With respect to the research that takes place within the health service, alongside the Secretary of State’s duty to have regard to the need to promote research, Clause 14(13) already gives him the powers to commission research or assist any person conducting research, including by providing financial assistance. An equivalent duty and powers are conferred on the board and clinical commissioning groups. We therefore believe that there are robust arrangements for safeguarding the funding of research already in place.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I should apologise to the noble Earl. The amendment was put down to probe the issues.

[Earl Howe]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord. In that case I shall not dwell on it at great length.

Amendment 40A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and other noble Lords, would require the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to promote the use of information derived from patients for research purposes while taking full account of the confidentiality of information. I welcome the intent behind this amendment, but it is in fact unnecessary. We recognise the important role that patient data, if treated carefully and confidentially—and that I hope goes without saying—can play in improving the quality of health research. I spoke earlier about our consultation document An Information Revolution, in which we propose that the most important source of data is the patient’s or the service user’s care record generated at the point of care. Information in these records also provides much of the data needed for other secondary purposes: for commissioners, for managers, for care professionals and, importantly, for research. We are using the responses that we received to the consultation, together with the findings of the NHS Future Forum, to develop an information strategy for health and social care in England. This will highlight how increased transparency and greater access to information supports improvements in care and research. It is the major work stream. I can reassure the noble Lord that we value the use of patient information where confidentiality is appropriately protected as a source of research and that we are looking at ways to embed its use in our information strategy.

[Lord Turnberg]

Can the noble Earl give us any idea of the timescale over which we might see something emerging from this? It has been on the agenda for a very long time and we really need to move on it.

[Earl Howe]

I hope that I am not putting my neck on the block, but within a month the noble Lord should hear news that may cheer him on this front.

A great many noble Lords have asked me questions, some of which I have covered, but I suggest that in the interests of time it might be helpful if I followed up this debate in writing and in a way that will enable me to answer the questions in greater detail than I would now in any event.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, in doing that will the Minister clarify what “health service” means? As I read the Bill, it sometimes looks as though public health is not included in that definition. It would be helpful if the Minister could give us some clarity on that and point us in the direction of an authoritative definition.

[Earl Howe]

I should be very glad to do so. The noble Lord may not be surprised to hear that, when I was being briefed for this Bill, I had to ask myself that very same question. The definition is there, but I think that it would be helpful if I set out the import of that phrase in its fullest sense.

I hope that I have said enough to encourage noble Lords not to press their amendments, but, in doing so, I reiterate my thanks to all noble Lords who have made such an excellent contribution to this debate.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for, as ever, a very courteous and thoughtful response to many of the issues which have been raised, in particular his response to Amendment 39 and his undertaking to reconsider “have regard to the need to”, which appears to be a little bit of clumsy draftsmanship that would be unworthy of the Minister himself.

The Minister raised a number of important issues, including that to which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, referred. We have now had a definition of “health service” which includes public health. That means that public health research could lie within some local authorities, because a significant amount of public health will be devolved to local authorities. While I was pleased to hear the Minister say today that those people moving from the National Health Service to local authorities for public health matters would retain National Health Service terms and conditions, the reality is that they will be working under a local authority aegis and that research would therefore be an issue for local authorities rather than Public Health England—or so I understand, but we will probe that later.

On protecting funding, I was particularly grateful for the way in which my noble friend the Minister responded to the idea of ring-fencing. He spoke not of ring-fencing, but said that there had been an increase in budget. It would have been good if he could have made that comment. However, he did say that NIHR would remain a stand-alone organisation. That was news to me; I thought that it was going to move into other organisations. Quite frankly, that is good news. It has a reputation which demonstrates that research is very important and we can track how it is used and when. I thank the Minister for that.

I apologise profusely to the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, for indicating that “research” meant the work that is coming out of universities and being translated for use at the bedside. She was quite right to remind us that “research” for the purposes of this Bill was all research, and that what should underpin all public policy, in the NHS or anywhere else, is research which gives you evidence to inform policy decisions. I thank her for that rebuke.

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[Baroness Thornton]

The noble Lord raised a very interesting and important point, but I do not intend to delay the House by expanding on it.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, Amendment 41A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Willis, will require the Secretary of State to set up a system to ensure that research is conducted properly and ethically and that there are sanctions in place in cases of misconduct. Let me say straight away that I am in agreement with the intention of my noble friend in tabling this amendment; the proper conduct of research is very important, just as proper conduct is critical in clinical practice. All my noble friend’s comments on that theme were extremely pertinent.

Looking at the amendment as it is worded, I can assure my noble friend that there are already systems in place to ensure that research is conducted ethically. Research, as he knows, cannot proceed without ethics committee approval. I realise that this is a probing amendment, but equally, as it is worded, it overlooks an important element in the current system of accountability, because it would risk undermining the clear responsibility in research, as in clinical practice, that employers have for the conduct of their employees and that professional councils have in regulating their members. Both can impose sanctions on researchers if their conduct is found to be inappropriate. I do not see that it is the responsibility of the Secretary of State to impose sanctions on clinical professionals, and it should not be his responsibility to do so for researchers. In the future, the Health Research Authority will continue the good work of the National Research Ethics Service, working with others to prevent misconduct by ensuring that the ethics of research have independently reviewed by research ethics committees.

This evening, I am able to give a new commitment to my noble friend. I am happy to tell him that we intend to publish the draft clauses on research for pre-legislative scrutiny in the second Session of this Parliament. That scrutiny will enable my noble friend and other noble Lords to comment on the detail of our proposals for the Health Research Authority and, in turn, enable us to ensure that future legislation is fit for purpose. I hope my noble friend will welcome that pledge.

If I may, I will cover the question my noble friend asked me about the concordat in a letter to him following this debate. I hope I have reassured him that there are systems in place to ensure good conduct in research. Nevertheless, his points are well made and I shall reflect fully upon them. I can only say at the moment that the Health Research Authority intends to build on these systems. In the light of what I said, I hope my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for that response. In view of it, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Earl Howe]

43: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
“The Secretary of State’s duty as to education and training
After section 1D of the National Health Service Act 2006 insert— “1E Duty as to education and training
(1) The Secretary of State must exercise the functions of the Secretary of State under any relevant enactment so as to secure that there is an effective system for the planning and delivery of education and training to persons who are employed, or who are considering becoming employed, in an activity which involves or is connected with the provision of services as part of the health service in England.
(2) In subsection (1), “relevant enactment” means section 63 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968 and any other enactment under which the Secretary of State has functions which could be exercised for the purpose of securing that there is such an effective system as is mentioned in that subsection.””

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[Lord Rooker]

My Lords, I intervene briefly in this debate. It also gives me the opportunity to apologise to the House. I removed Amendments 35 and 36 at 10 pm on Monday because I could not guarantee to be here at 3.30 pm today. I apologise if it caused confusion, but I could not be here today at that time.

On Amendment 45, I would like to know the Government’s position, because the noble Baroness said that the Government maintain their position. In some ways, the temptation for fragmentation is enormous. I am not sure whether the NHS is still the largest employer in Europe. As a totality, I think it probably is. However, we are talking here about England—or are we? The issue of devolution is crucial. I served for 12 months as a direct rule Minister in Northern Ireland, and I came across problems there relating to people doing the same job here. Also, of course, moving around Whitehall, as the Minister probably discovered himself, you go into departments and meet people doing more or less exactly the same job on vastly different salaries. The temptation of fragmentation was accepted at the centre of government, and that has led to significant problems of mobility for people moving even around Whitehall.

I am no expert on the NHS—I only know it as a patient and a family member of patients—but as far as I am concerned, it is a team effort. It is a bit like the argument we had with the firefighters. You are sending people out on a team to do a job, and they are not going out on different rates of pay, different pensions and different contracts. The one way to keep it cohesive is to maintain national pay bargaining. It does not mean that one size fits all, but the fact is, as my noble friend who kicked this off said, the industrial relations implications are enormous, given the potential for disputes that nobody wants. A dispute is created because of a festering sore on something else. The facility is not there if you have a system of national pay bargaining for healthcare staff.

The amendment refers to,

“services for the improvement of public health”.

Quite clearly, there will be transfers of public health staff who are working in local government and who are perhaps working to and with NHS rates of pay. That in itself will be a difficulty if people are going to work with colleagues in local government under a different scheme. While the Government take account of that, the temptation will be to level down to local government to get one size fits all at the local level. I do not think that that temptation ought to be accepted.

As for the issue of regional break-up, there was an argument about this many years ago when there was an attempt to pay teachers more who were prepared to go and work in the inner cities. You can have a local premium, and you can do some local work where there are factors, but in the case of nursing staff, particularly the lower-paid, and their ability to move around the country for career opportunities and to move their family, they are working within one service. Everybody knows that it is the NHS—the “N” is still there—but they are faced with the issue that, for the same job in the next region or the next but one region, they may be paid up to 10 per cent less and their pension and terms and conditions may be different. That could cause enormous problems.

I only spoke in the mental health debate last week, but the overall theme of the Bill and the many allegations that have been sent to noble Lords, of which the Minister will be aware, are that this is a grand plan—not now, but in the end—to fragment and break up the National Health Service, a plot hatched in the 1980s by Members of the other House who are currently members of the Government. The introduction of market forces into both the provision of care and other providers, and the temptation then to break up national pay bargaining to fit the new regime, which is supposed to be patient-oriented, is an enormous pressure on the Government. Ministers will be told that this will make sense at the local level. It may be asking a lot for the Minister to give a definitive response to this tonight, but the issues of industrial relations and pay bargaining in the NHS have to be settled well before the passage of this Bill, if only because during the period of implementation we do not, as my noble friend said, want discord among the staff as they implement what will be, I accept, many positive changes in the Bill.

The other issue that has to be raised, because we are talking about services to patients, is the pay and bargaining within service providers as the issue gets broken up. There will be some debates about charities, the third sector and social enterprise involvement where industrial relations and pay bargaining may be affected. However, there are other issues relating to the private sector doing jobs using NHS staff. It offers mobility as teams move. People do not have one place of work but may move between two or three different establishments, one of which may be the NHS, in which they may be based. They are expected to perform as part of the team locally, providing the services to patients in the round. What happens to pay bargaining in those situations?

If we allow fragmentation at a local level, it would be wise for the Minister to say that the status quo will be maintained. I accept that the status quo has flexibility built in, as the noble Baroness said, but it is a flexibility that does not appear to have been used. This is a bit like the Scottish Government. They had the flexibility to put up income tax by 5 per cent, but it has never been done. This is the reality. You put in that flexibility but for various reasons there are barriers to actually using it. In this case, the evidence is that the flexibility has not been used except perhaps in extreme circumstances. I do not think that it would be a good idea if we went down this route. I think there is enough evidence to keep people working together as a team with a national perspective that allows job mobility and promotion without people being afraid of moving within the same service because of the pay and conditions. I do not think that it is a good idea, and I hope the Minister will be able to take a more positive approach to this issue, even if he can only state it in general terms.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, seeks to impose on the Secretary of State,

“a duty to maintain a national pay and bargaining system for healthcare staff, to cover those staff providing”,

both NHS and public health services. This would cover not only existing NHS organisations but any organisation providing services to the NHS. The amendment, as worded, goes against the Government’s view that employers are best placed to determine the most appropriate pay and reward package to ensure that they recruit and retain the workforce that they need.

Our clear view is that it would be inappropriate to require independent and voluntary sector providers to adhere to NHS pay when NHS foundation trusts, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, rightly pointed out, already have such freedoms. The Government believe that to deliver the best care for patients, this freedom should be extended to all NHS organisations. I also take the noble Baroness’s point that while foundation trusts have the power to apply local terms and conditions for all staff, medical, clinical and administrative, very few trusts exercise those freedoms. There are around 400 trusts, and only one foundation trust—Southend—has departed from Agenda for Change, and the differences that it has negotiated are marginal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rooker]

For the public health directors, who will be the employer? Will it be the local authority? In the sense that you can pay a director of education or children’s services market rates around local government, will that be the same for the directors of public health, so that their salaries vary around the country? It would be the beginnings of a new service, in that sense. Do we know the answer to that?

[Earl Howe]

They will be employed by local authorities. It is too soon to say to the noble Lord what the pay grade of those people will be, but clearly they will be very senior officers within the local authority. Yes, strictly speaking, if there is freedom to set pay locally, there could be some variations around the country, but I would envisage that the pay grade of directors of public health will gravitate towards a certain figure, whatever that may be.

[Lord MacKenzie of Culkein]

The Minister spoke about the value of the pay review body being independent, but I was not clear whether he saw a future for that body. Could he clarify that first?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, we value the pay review bodies, and there are no plans to disturb them at the moment. I sought to indicate that we continue to look at how pay arrangements are best structured. The pay review bodies do an extremely valuable job at present, as they have done for many years.

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and other noble Lords who contributed to the debate, particularly my noble friend Lord MacKenzie for his reminder to us of the history of the establishment of the pay review bodies and the contribution that they have made, particularly to improving pay and industrial relations in the NHS.

I also thank my noble friend Lord Rooker for a number of comments that he made in support of the amendment, particularly the point that he made about operating the same job in a nearby locality for different pay and conditions, which would be likely to cause serious detriment to industrial relations. We are very concerned about that.

I deeply disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. This is not a pedalling-back amendment. The foundation trusts, I would contend, have not implemented local pay bargaining because they know the implications for industrial relations and local employment rates and so on. Agenda for Change has introduced equal pay, as the Minister said, and provided a good framework for addressing issues of equal pay for equal value. It has certainly proved its worth.

I regret that the Minister is unable to offer any real comfort to those in the House who believe that honouring the long-standing pay and bargaining arrangements for NHS staff at national level is not only the fairest thing to do but the wisest course if we are to ensure that NHS staff morale does not plummet even further. It is an important issue and I give notice that I intend to raise this matter at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.