Calais Jungle Camp: Child Refugees

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That is precisely the type of thing that both Governments are collaborating on and, yes, making the Dublin framework work is of course a top priority.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

How many of the 20,000 refugees we pledged to receive into the UK in the term of this Parliament have been received up to now? And if I ask that question in October, what answer does the Minister forecast I will get?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I would not want to forecast anything but I am pleased to tell the noble Lord that the total number who have been resettled is 1,854 but, since the programme expanded, that number is 1,602, which is very pleasing indeed.

Syrian Refugees

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to fulfil their pledge to accept 20,000 refugees from Syria into the United Kingdom by 2020.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement scheme is on track to deliver the Government’s commitment. The most recent statistics published on 26 May 2016 show that a total of 1,854 people have been resettled in the United Kingdom under the scheme since it began in March 2014.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his disappointing reply. In February, there were 1,194 people under the scheme. The number has risen by only 700. To reach the number of 20,000 by 2020 means that we will have to take 4,000 a year, not 700. How on earth will the Government keep their promise when they are unable even at the beginning to fulfil their pledge?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is important that we understand the facts. The scheme began in March 2014, when it was decided that a number of hundreds of vulnerable Syrians would be resettled here. It was on 1 September 2015 that the Prime Minister determined to increase the number to 20,000, and it is since that date that the numbers have been increasing. As I said, it is anticipated that within the life of this Parliament, which will be until 2020, we will resettle 20,000.

Refugees: Unaccompanied Children

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what arrangements are in place to fulfil their decision to welcome unaccompanied child refugees into the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we are working closely with local authorities, as set out in the Immigration Act 2016, and consulting non-government organisations, the UNHCR, UNICEF and relevant member states to establish the suitable processes to implement our commitment to transfer unaccompanied refugee children to the UK from Europe and resettle children at risk from the Middle East and north Africa region.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

The Minister might be aware of UNICEF’s comment even today that we are “moving far too slowly” in this matter of bringing over unaccompanied refugee children. Is it not time that we worked with other voluntary organisations and other individuals who are eager to welcome these children and to be part of their resettlement in the United Kingdom? Would it be possible for the Minister to give us a timetable of exactly what we are doing and when, with a view to resettling not only these children but the 20,000 refugees whom we have said we will resettle during the course of this Parliament?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I am sure the noble Lord is aware, we are working with international organisations, NGOs such as Save the Children and the UNHCR. Specifically on the question he raised about settlement, we are consulting and working directly with France, Italy and Greece and are working with NGOs in this respect. I emphasise that ultimately it is important to get this right for those children’s sake. It is not a question of delaying or dragging our feet; it is about ensuring that the best interests of children are put first.

Immigration

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I entirely concur with my noble friend’s observations. It is unfortunate that these two groups are lumped together so often, when we are dealing with two very distinct issues.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister remember that, in 1932, the Jews were discriminated against and demonised and that that demonisation led to that terrible Holocaust? Is not the same thing happening now? Some people are demonising migration and immigrants and it will have terrible consequences unless we stop it.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I do not accept that there has been such demonisation. Again, it is important to distinguish between those who are genuine asylum seekers, seeking genuine refuge, and those who are economic migrants.

Refugees: Unaccompanied Children

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I believe that everyone is aware of the urgency of this issue. The Government said last week that we expected that the first children would arrive before the end of the year, not—as was widely reported—that it would take until the end of the year before they arrived.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, surely we remember that this proposal from Save the Children was first made last September. Since that time, it seems that nothing has been prepared by the Government in order to make sure that these children are welcomed here by people who really have warm hearts willing to welcome them. Are not the Government acting totally out of step with the thinking of the majority of caring people in the United Kingdom?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I do not accept that for a moment. This Government have been at the forefront of efforts to deal with the refugee problem not only in Syria but also as it has affected Europe. We are taking further steps, as the noble Lord knows, to deal with the question of unaccompanied children. However, noble Lords will remember that those children who are now in Europe are in relatively safe havens. It cannot be suggested that France is anything other than a safe country. For those children who have a connection or direct family links with the United Kingdom, we are taking steps to ensure that that connection is established properly and that they are brought to the United Kingdom.

Immigration: Public Services

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

This Government had to wrestle with the inheritance of 2010 on migration. We found ourselves with more than 900 bogus colleges arranging for the admission into this country of fake students in the hundreds of thousands. Some 920 of those fake colleges have been closed since 2010. That itself has relieved pressure on our services.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords—

Young Asylum Seekers: Deportation

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether it is their continuing policy to deport failed unaccompanied asylum seekers on reaching 18 years of age.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

In the absence of adequate reception arrangements in the country of origin, our policy is not to return unaccompanied children who are refused asylum. Instead, we grant leave until they reach adulthood. At that point, individuals can make further representations, but if they do not qualify for protection or another form of leave, it is right that they leave the United Kingdom. Support is available for people to return voluntarily.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

I thank the Minister. I tabled a Written Question on 13 April asking for the number of 18 year-olds deported in each of the last 10 years. One month later, I have still not received a reply. I received a reply last October to a Question about deportation figures, and was given a number for 2010 of 132. After another Question in March, that was corrected to 778. The initial figure given for 2014 was 151, which was later corrected to 445. Is the Minister happy with these sorts of misleading citations of figures from the Home Office? Is it not time that we had some explanation for why this happened? The Home Office is reluctant to give answers, and when it does so, the answer is wrong.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

There is no reluctance on the part of the Home Office to answer these questions. Given the diverse number of figures that the noble Lord has mentioned, it might be difficult to determine which of them was wrong and which was right.

Immigration Bill

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, like the right reverend Prelate I am a signatory to this amendment. I am delighted to be able to offer my support to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who made a compelling and eloquent case in support of Amendment 116A.

In opposing this, the Government have used various arguments. One is that you cannot distinguish between groups that suffer, but all of us who think about that for very long know that it is at best a disingenuous argument and at worst an unworthy one. The noble Lord referred to the other argument that the Government use about so-called pull factors. In the case of children, surely that cannot outweigh all the points that the noble Lord has just advanced.

Then there is the question of numbers. I was looking today at the total number of refugees who have come to the United Kingdom and the total number who have come out of Syria. Some 4.8 million refugees have come out of Syria over the past five years. Turkey is currently hosting some 3 million refugees, and we will no doubt hear more about this later in the Statement that will be given to the House. Before anybody else suggests that this country is being swamped, just look at the numbers: 5,845 Syrians plus 1,337 under the vulnerable persons scheme is 0.15% of the total. So to ask just for 3,000 unaccompanied minors to come into this country is far from being unreasonable.

In Committee on 3 February, I asked the Minister about a report which had appeared in the Daily Telegraph and Observer newspapers which reported the comments of Brian Donald, Europol’s chief of staff. He said:

“It’s not unreasonable to say that we’re looking at 10,000-plus children, who are unaccompanied and who have disappeared in Europe ... Not all of them will be criminally exploited; some might have been passed on to family members. We just don’t know where they are, what they’re doing or whom they are with”.

He said that 10,000 was likely to be “a conservative estimate”.

Arising from those shocking and disturbing figures, I hope that the Minister will tell us when he comes to reply what discussions the Home Office has had since 3 February with Europol about the children who have disappeared and what percentage Europol believes to have been unaccompanied. If thousands of child migrants have simply vanished in Europe while we have argued about how many angels you can fit on the top of a pin, it will be a lasting stain on our collective reputations.

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, also referred to foster parents. I hope that when he replies the Minister will tell us what discussions he has had with local authorities about promoting fostering arrangements for these children. For obvious reasons, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, also referred to the Kindertransport. The reputation of politicians and diplomats from that era is redeemed by the extraordinary bravery and determination of men such as Sir Nicholas Winton, the diplomat Raoul Wallenberg and Eleanor Rathbone, “the refugees’ MP”, as she was known. This year is the 70th anniversary of her death.

In 1938, after Kristallnacht, she established the Parliamentary Committee on Refugees. Two years later, on 10 July 1940 in a six-hour debate, she intervened on no fewer than 20 occasions to insist that Britain had a duty of care to the refugees being hunted down by the Nazis. She said that a nation had an obligation to give succour to those fleeing persecution—in her words,

“not only in the interests of humanity and of the refugees, but in the interests of security itself”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/7/40; col. 1212.]

In words that have an echo in the debates we have been having during the course of this Bill, she wrote that discussions about asylum seekers and refugees,

“always … begin with an acknowledgement of the terrible nature of the problem and expressions of sympathy with the victims. Then comes a tribute to the work of the voluntary organisations. Then some account of the small, leisurely steps taken by the Government. Next, a recital of the obstacles—fear of anti-Semitism, or the jealousy of the unemployed, or of encouraging other nations to offload their Jews on to us”.

It is hard not to see the parallels. The debates about the Kindertransport continued in Parliament until literally hours before war broke out. In 2016 we should do no less than those who preceded us.

The amendment would require the Secretary of States to relocate 3,000 unaccompanied refugee children in European Union countries to the United Kingdom. These vulnerable young people have already had traumatic experience of the chaos and violence of war, the abandonment of hearth and home, horrendous journeys and separation from families, with some placed into the hands of smugglers and people traffickers and some facing exploitation of every kind. They are entitled to international protection and to respect for their rights as refugees—even more so than adults. Surely the lifeboat rule must apply.

Nelson Mandela once said:

“There can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the way in which it treats its children”.

Many of us will be dead when these children come to maturity, but they will never forget, as the noble Lord who moved this amendment has never forgotten, the values that made their futures possible. I am very happy to support an amendment that says the very best about the values of this country.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, as one who signed the amendment, I am delighted to follow the noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Alton. The heart beats strongly on this issue, but it has to beat strongly in the future as well. I imagine that as the years go by, with all sorts of issues such as climate change, war and famine, we will be discussing this issue time and again. We must somehow sort out our approach in the long term, and this is an opportunity to do so. It is an opportunity to say to 3,000 children, “You are welcome in our country”. It is an opportunity to show the world that we are not going to be dragged kicking and screaming into receiving refugee children but that we are happy to do so.

It is seven or eight months since Save the Children started its appeal for 3,000 child refugees, and now we have the chance to bring it into being. What an opportunity for us in the House of Lords today to say, “Yes, we welcome children”. The message will be carried to the Commons, and I do not see that they will be able to resist joining in with that welcome.

Alternatively, we could be hesitant and obstructive and say no, but I do not know what would influence anyone to vote against this amendment. Why should anyone go into the Not Content Lobby against children? Your Lordships had grandfathers, grandmothers, mothers and fathers—surely we can look at other children who are less fortunate than our own and say, “Yes, you are welcome, and we in the House of Lords will raise the banner of hope”. That will demonstrate that we are determined to tackle this problem, not only to Dunkirk, Calais and other places but also to the future.

Let us be brave. Let us have a unanimous vote of welcome today. We do not have to vote against this. We do not just have to say no. I do not know how on earth anyone who is a parent, a grandparent, an uncle or an aunt will be able to say, “We are going into the Lobby to stop these children coming over”. I am delighted to be able to support the amendment.

Immigration Bill

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of Amendments 79 and 80, to which I have added my name. The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, has already made a very powerful case, as has the noble Lord, Lord Alton. While I appreciate the care taken by the Minister in his letter of 3 February, I am disappointed that the Government were not willing to budge an inch on what I—perhaps naively—thought was a rather small, albeit important, couple of amendments.

In Committee, the noble Baroness was rightly dismissive of the administrative arguments to justify refusal. Will the Minister give the House some idea of what the exact administrative costs are likely to be and what assumptions the Government made in deciding that it would be too administratively costly? Will he also give some idea of how many people in a year meet what he himself has described as the “narrowly defined” test to qualify for exemption on destitution grounds? While I prefer clear, legal entitlements, in the spirit of what the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, suggested, I wonder whether there is room for building on the destitution exemption.

For example, if an applicant could demonstrate the difficulties that an up-front payment would cause, short of meeting the destitution test, they should be allowed to pay in a limited number of instalments. This would be clearly circumscribed. In some cases, we are talking about really large sums, but even where it is just the most basic payments, it is still a lot for someone with very limited means to pay as a one-off. That point has not been adequately taken on board.

What I am suggesting would get round the fear, expressed by the Minister, of people being able to use payment by instalments as an interest-free loan, regardless of their capacity to pay up front. We are not suggesting that anybody can come along and say they would like to pay in instalments—just those who may not fail the destitution test but who would clearly face real problems.

On the domestic violence exclusion, how many people have been exempted under the rule—brought in, according to the Minister’s letter, in April 2015—that exempts treatment needed as a consequence of domestic violence? Would it not be simpler just to exempt all those who have been a victim of domestic violence, rather than making applicants prove that any physical or mental health needs are a direct consequence of it? We know, from other contexts, how difficult it is to prove these impacts—particularly on mental health—in a way that satisfies authorities. It can also be very distressing to have to provide that proof.

I have received an email expressing support from the Royal College of Nursing, which is very concerned about the workings of the health surcharge. One of its concerns is to know what mechanisms exist, and what assurance the Government can offer, that the revenue generated is redirected back into the NHS.

Finally, I support Amendment 81, tabled by my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. I quote from the conclusions of a study carried out by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and the Council of Europe, which adds to the strong case already made and states:

“Access to education should be better supported, including, where necessary, after young unaccompanied and separated asylum seekers and beneficiaries of international protection have reached the age of majority, as it plays a critical role in their transition”.

We had an example of that from my noble friend. It is important that we support these young people in such a difficult transition period.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, I support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy. It was such a help to those such as me who have been involved in church education for people from overseas. I hope that the House will support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, I suggest to those who say, “Yes, let us penalise people in this way”, that these are people. They are people with families, with abilities and with various stresses, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, has told us, including mental stresses that are often not taken into consideration. There are the conditions in which they are held. There was a report only three weeks ago on the conditions in Harmondsworth, with 660 detainees, which stated that it just was not fit for purpose. There were bugs, the toilets did not work and the showers were dirty.

We are looking at people and at what they are like when they leave there. Will they feel that British justice was fair and that Britain was handling them in a fair way, or will they feel resentment? What we do not need in the world at the present time are people who are resentful and ready to act in a violent way. They should know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and I would support a period of 28 days. There was one detainee in the report on Harmondsworth who had been there for more than five years. Others had been there for more than 12 months. This is an opportunity for us to say to the Government that the conditions are not acceptable as they are. Let us go for an exact limit. It can be 28 days if the majority agree on that. Otherwise, we should be treating people as people. They are not criminals; they are people—people with lives, with dreams, with a culture. So I very much support this amendment.

Immigration Bill

Lord Roberts of Llandudno Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2016 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

113: After Clause 58, insert the following new Clause—
“Exemption from deportationExemption from deportation for unaccompanied minors upon reaching the age of 18
After section 7(3) of the Immigration Act 1971 (exemption from deportation for certain existing residents) insert—“(3A) A person shall not be liable to deportation under section 3 upon reaching the age of 18 if the person entered the United Kingdom under the age of 18 as an unaccompanied minor.””

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

We are facing a problem that I think we realise exists: what happens to youngsters—unaccompanied asylum seekers or refugees—who came here some years previously? They have settled down here, they have become part of our communities; they speak our language, they go to our schools; they have imbibed the culture of the United Kingdom; and they have been very well cared for—and we are so grateful to the authorities and the foster homes which take this responsibility upon themselves. But then, when they reach 18 years of age, they lose that protection. This is an immense problem.

I remember meeting about half a dozen lads from Afghanistan who were in this category. They had reached 18 and were telling me what they had done when they were on the verge of turning 18. One had built a noose above his bed in case Border Force came and wanted to deport him—he knew what he wanted to do then. A couple of the others had pushed their wardrobes against the doors of their bedrooms to try to stop or hinder anyone from coming and deporting them. These are people who have been here, people who do not know their original country, and yet we are going to force them from here.

Last year about 250 18 year-olds were deported. Half of them were taken forcibly—they were physically taken and deported. Gosh, what sort of reputation do we have if we do these sorts of things? My grandchildren are not quite 18. These people are us, they are human beings, and yet we are doing this to them. What makes it even more incredible to me is that of those who appeal, half of them win their appeals against the prospect of unfair deportation. I ask the Minister to look at this and give us an assurance in the Bill that nobody aged 18 will be treated in this way. I beg to move.

[The Lord Bishop of Norwich]

My Lords, Amendment 114 in this group is in my name. I am grateful for the support of other noble Lords. The amendment seeks to ensure that a best interests assessment is obtained for any child separated from its parents as a result of an immigration appeal. It is not so very long ago, I remember, that in the light of failures in child protection a policy initiative was given the title Every Child Matters. Every child does matter, without exception.

Under Clause 59, the Secretary of State will have the power to remove the ability of a person to remain in the UK when appealing against an immigration decision. This simply extends provisions already contained in the Immigration Act 2014 which apply only to foreign national offenders. However, no analysis on the impact of children being separated from their parents as a result of the Immigration Act 2014 has been undertaken. That is the first thing to stress, yet the new Bill extends these provisions to all appeals relating to immigration claims, including those involving accompanied and unaccompanied children.

Recent research by the Children’s Commissioner has shown the serious long-term impact on a child of separation from a parent: it can undermine their developmental, behavioural and emotional well-being. There is a significant delay, currently of up to a year, in immigration appeals being listed so this separation from family or home in the event of certification would have significant consequences for any child. A year may seem to pass quickly when you reach the seniority of many of us in your Lordships’ House but for a child aged six or seven, a year’s development is very significant. In Committee, the Minister expressed the hope that in future,

“appeal processes in simple cases will not exceed six months and even in complex cases will not exceed 12 months ”.—[Official Report, 3/2/16; col. 1813.]

But there is no guarantee that this will be the case and even 12 months can be too long for a child removed from parents or school, or for unaccompanied young people who find themselves, as they are likely to do, without a support network in their country of origin—where they may have no family left at all.

Government Amendment 145 draws attention to the duty of the Home Secretary under Section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009,

“to safeguard and promote the welfare of children”,

with respect to immigration, asylum and enforcement functions. However, the experience of organisations such as the Refugee Children’s Consortium is that children’s best interests are not systematically and comprehensively assessed within immigration decision-making. No one has ever relied on this duty of the Home Secretary in any case and there is no clear means of implementing it. It seems no more than a pious aspiration. I am in favour of pious aspirations and the more pious, the better, but they need some means of implementation and checking. There needs to be independent oversight of the duty on the Home Office to ensure that the best interests of any child are adequately considered before any decision is made to certify any claim for out-of-country appeals. That is what Amendment 114 offers so straightforwardly.

We need to see all this within the context of cuts to legal aid. The Government have removed all legal aid for immigration cases, undermining the ability of children and families to put forward the necessary evidence and legal arguments to have their cases fairly determined. What is the result? The Home Office will be making decisions on poorly-prepared cases with inadequate evidence because children and families will not have had the benefit of legal advice. It means that the ability to appeal against decisions by the Home Office has never been more important.

We saw a stark example of the current weaknesses of Home Office decision-making just last April. The Court of Appeal upheld the decision by the Upper Tribunal requiring the Home Office to return a five year-old child to the UK with his mother after failing to consider properly his best interests before they were removed to Nigeria. The woman, who was undocumented, had claimed to be in the UK since 1991. She applied for asylum in 2010, saying that she feared destitution and discrimination as a single mother in Nigeria with no immediate family. Her asylum claim had been repeatedly rejected. At one point, she was admitted to a psychiatric unit with depression. Her son was put into foster care as she battled against attempts to send them both back to Nigeria. The foster carers who looked after the boy remained close to him. When the mother and child were removed from the UK, those foster carers paid for their accommodation and healthcare in Nigeria from their own savings because they were so concerned about what happened to them both. The judge ruled:

“In not taking into account the implications of”,

the mother’s “mental health” for the child,

“and the risk of that degenerating in the Nigerian context and the likely consequences of removal, the Secretary of State failed to have regard to”,

the child’s,

“best interests as a primary consideration”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am not in a position to immediately answer that question but, if I may, I will write to the noble Baroness on that point.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I am grateful to the Minister for responding. His facts and figures are a wee bit at variance with those that I have, and I think that we need to explore this further. Therefore, tonight, I will withdraw this amendment, but I suggest that we come back to this subject very soon because so many refugee and voluntary organisations are very concerned about this deportation dating. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 113 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I was unaware of this situation until earlier stages in the Bill. Like the right reverend Prelate, I do not need to stress the concern; the noble Baroness has done so very effectively. She is absolutely right that this should not be left in the too-difficult-bureaucratically tray. It is an appalling situation and one that I cannot believe any politician would wish on—I was going to say the recipients, but they are not the recipients. That is the whole problem.

My noble friend’s name has been left off, but I tabled Amendment 118 in this group, which is about the issue of vouchers and cash payment, relating to both Sections 95 and 95A. The amendment, I hope, responds to the Minister’s comments in Committee to a similar amendment. At the time he said:

“The legislation needs to be flexible enough”.—[Official Report, 3/2/16; col. 1831.]

He referred to the fact that support is sometimes provided in the form of accommodation or services.

My amendment would provide that, as it were, the default is cash support for reasons of dignity. I do not think that I need to spell all this out again. We have covered it previously, and to me it is entirely obvious that it is undignified to be given support other than in a form that you can choose to spend—to an extent, as obviously there are many essentials to cover, but you can make your own choices. That is fundamental to human dignity, but it is also a matter of practicality.

My noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno referred earlier to the shop that had been established, I think on the Park Royal industrial estate, where everything was on sale for 25p—then it was going to go up to 50p, and then £1. The response was that we should see whether the shop will take the card. That does not respond appropriately to the point.

My amendment would specifically provide an answer to the Minister’s points in Committee that support can be in the form of accommodation or services or, in exceptional circumstances, vouchers, which can be exchanged for goods and services, or a card entitling the holder to goods or services, but primarily in cash.

I wonder whether I can ask the Minister a question on one of his amendments in this group. Amendment 127 refers to,

“a person under the age of 18 who is unaccompanied and who … has leave to enter or remain … and is a person of a kind specified in regulations”.

I realise that that wording is also included in Clause 64(9) but I also realise that I have no idea what,

“a person of a kind specified in regulations”,

might be. I hope that when the Minister addresses that amendment he can explain what a person of a particular kind might be. What sort of kinds are we talking about?

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

Following what my noble friend Lady Hamwee said, I will add the word “choice”. If you have a card or a voucher you have to go to certain outlets—usually the middle-range outlets, not the cheaper shops or the bargain shops. When you get only £36 a week, you have to spend your money very carefully indeed. I enjoy cheese biscuits. I forget the name of the make now; they are cheddar biscuits. Perhaps other Members do as well. I can go to a shop in Llandudno and the marked price is £1.39. I buy them sometimes. If I go to a pound shop they are two for £1. There is a massive difference between what you can buy from a shop that has possibly only limited goods on sale and from one of the ordinary shops—I will not mention them; no publicity this evening.

We are denying people the choice and ability to look after themselves and their families in the best possible way. We spoke earlier of the best interests of the child. I suggest that the best interests of the child here is that the parent can use the money and the value that they have in the best possible way, and is not limited to a certain number of shops. It should be open if you have cash in your hand. You should not be embarrassed at the till because your card is overspent; you will know exactly what you have. I have said this many times to the Minister: we always seem to have a great friendly understanding, but I never got my way on store cards. I am sure that there is the possibility in the Bill to look after the best interest of the child and those who have this benefit. I urge the Minister to accept my noble friend Lady Hamwee’s amendment. It is in only exceptional circumstances that a card or voucher is used; usually it is a cash benefit that they can spend in whatever way they want.

[Lord Rosser]

Briefly, I am genuinely not clear what the problem is for the Government in accepting Amendment 116, which presumably would not involve large sums of money. As I understand it, it affects not people who have had their claims turned down and who have to leave the country, but people who receive a resident’s permit to remain in the country for differing reasons and differing periods of time. If it is the case that there is a gap between asylum support payments and mainstream payments, because matters are not all being dealt with within what is presumably the intended 28-day period, then, frankly, why not agree to the amendment? I hope that the Government will be able to give a helpful response to what, on the face of it, appears to be a pretty straightforward issue.