Non-Consensual Sexually Explicit Images and Videos (Offences) Bill [HL]

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 13th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by acknowledging the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that there is obviously formidable support for the Bill, as we have heard in today’s debate. It is an important Bill, and one which is bringing this issue to the very top of the political agenda.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, I too have experienced in my role as a magistrate many cases of domestic abuse and domestic violence. I know the noble Lord had that experience during his time as a police officer. Sadly, it is not unusual; it is just that the perpetrators are finding different ways to extend such misogynistic abuse towards women. That is what underlies the noble Baroness’s Bill today.

I would be happy to meet my noble friend Lord Knight and other noble Lords to discuss the Bill and, if I may say so, the wider context of how within government we are going to try to meet the objectives of the Bill through other legislation. I will write to noble Lords on any specific questions that I fail to answer.

I thank the guests of the noble Baroness, Lady Owen: the victims and survivors who are here today. Their physical presence here adds an additional seriousness to the debate. I reiterate the point of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, that this is a very well-attended debate for a Friday afternoon, which again is a testament to the importance of the issue.

The Government and I share your Lordships’ concern that more needs to be done to protect women from this form of abuse and to punish those responsible for it. Advances in technology have meant that intimate images can now easily be taken, created or shared without consent, and all at the click of a button. The technology to create realistic deepfake sexual images is readily available to turn harmless everyday images from a person’s social media profile into pornographic material which can then be shared with millions in milliseconds. This cannot continue unchecked.

First, I will talk about the criminal law. Our police must have a comprehensive suite of offences, so that they can effectively target these behaviours. There is a range of existing offences to tackle intimate image abuse, both online and offline, but it is clear that some gaps in protection remain. That is why the Government made a clear commitment in the manifesto to ban the creation of sexually explicit deepfake images of adults. I appreciate that noble Lords and campaigners want us to act without delay, and may be concerned that we are not seizing the opportunity to support this Bill. Let me reassure the noble Baroness and the whole House that we will deliver our manifesto commitment in this Session of Parliament. However, we must act carefully, so that any new measures work with existing law and, most importantly, effectively protect victims and bring offenders to justice. That is what our legislation later in this Session will do. Our manifesto commitment is just the beginning. We are considering whether further legislation is needed to strengthen the law around taking intimate images without consent. I will update the House in due course on this issue.

Ahead of that, I want to mention briefly a couple of areas that have been discussed today. The first is the question of solicitation, mentioned by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Morgan and Lady Owen. As I am sure the noble Baronesses know, for every offence, except those that are specifically excluded, it is automatically also an offence to encourage or assist that offence. Therefore, as soon as we have made it an offence to create a sexually explicit deepfake, it will also be an offence to encourage or assist someone else to commit that offence.

I want to be clear on this: you cannot get round the law by asking someone else in this country to break the law for you. I know the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, is also concerned about the solicitation of deepfake sexually explicit images from other jurisdictions. The question of the application of the laws of England and Wales to other countries is very complex, particularly in relation to offences where elements are committed in different jurisdictions. I reassure her that we are looking very carefully at that issue.

I next move on to the deletion of images, again raised by various noble Lords. I share the noble Baroness’s desire to ensure that perpetrators who are convicted of an intimate image abuse offence are not given their device back by the police with images of the victim still on it. There is already provision under Section 153 of the Sentencing Act 2020 for the court to deprive a convicted offender of their rights in any property, including images, which has been used for the purpose of either committing or facilitating any criminal offence, or which the offender intends to use for that purpose, by making a deprivation order. The courts already have the power to deprive offenders of devices used to commit a sharing offence and of the images which are shared without consent. While judges’ use of these powers is a matter of judicial independence, we will closely examine what changes may be necessary to make sure that such incidents do not occur.

To talk a little more widely about the work that we are doing, while the criminal law is important, it is just one lever we can use to tackle intimate image abuse. Let me outline for noble Lords some of the other work that the Government are doing in this area. I noted the point made by the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, about how advertising drives so much of revenue, which may well be encouraging the further development of these forms of abuse.

Intimate image abuse rightly has serious criminal consequences, but we are also taking steps to tackle the prevalence of this harmful online content. In November we legislated to make sharing intimate images without consent a priority offence under the Online Safety Act 2023, which we have heard quite a lot about in today’s debate. These images will therefore become “priority illegal content” under the Act, forcing social media firms and search service companies to take action to remove them. I noted the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, about how all these platforms, not just the big ones, should be subject to these new provisions in the Online Safety Act. We know there are concerns about the process of getting images removed online. The Government’s priority is getting Ofcom’s codes of practice in place. Then we will assess, based on evidence, how effective those protections are and whether we need to go further.

As I have already mentioned, the internet has opened up new outlets for misogyny, and I know noble Lords share my concern at the rise of certain influencers who make a living by peddling their vile ideologies to our young men and boys. This toxic online culture can all too easily lead on to violence against women in the real world. That was a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Bolton, and the noble Lords, Lord Bethell and Lord Clement-Jones, and I agree.

It is also critical that we support the victims. There are, of course, many victims of this form of abuse. I remind noble Lords that my department provides funding for a number of services to help victims cope and recover from the impact of crime, including intimate image abuse.

I am not going to have time to address all the points, but I want to pick up one particular point, which I had not heard before, made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir, about audio abuse. I take that point seriously and will make sure it gets fed into the system when we are considering legislation.

I find it difficult to disagree with any of the points made by noble Lords, but I know there will be frustration across the House about the Government pursuing their own legislation within this Session. I hope that noble Lords will understand that we want to make it sustainable and that we want the legislation to be solid, to use the noble Baroness’s word, and future-proof as far as is possible. I know very well that this is a difficult thing to do. We have a lot of work to do, and I am sure that all noble Lords will support the Government’s efforts in this field.

[Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge (Con)]

My Lords, before the Minister sits down, can I get his assurance that any pledge on a creation offence will be consent-based and that intent will not have to be proved? He has pledged to legislate in this Session of Parliament, creating the offence, but I would really like to know what kind of vehicle that is going to be and what the implementation period is. As all noble Lords have said, we cannot afford to wait. Any legislative vehicle that is going to take a year to pass, with a long implementation period, is simply not good enough.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Regarding the noble Baroness’s question about consent, I would like to reassure the House that in a criminal case the onus is never on the victim to marshal evidence or to prove intent of the perpetrator; it is for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service when investigating the alleged offence or prosecuting the case in court. That is why we work with the CPS when considering changes to the criminal law, to ensure the offence can be prosecuted effectively.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the whole purpose of the discussion today has been, to use the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, that there should be strict liability and not intent. Surely we are not talking about mens rea in this at all.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I absolutely heard what the noble Baroness said about strict liability offences. The Government’s position is as I just said. However, I listened very carefully to what the noble Baroness said.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

For those of us who have been dealing with sexual offences for some time, the one thing we know is that if you have to prove intent, it is worse than useless. I urge the Minister to take that away and to say to the House as a whole that intent will not be a satisfactory solution to the noble Baroness’s Private Member’s Bill.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I am afraid I will have to repeat the point I made previously: we understand very well the strength of feeling on this argument, and we are actively considering it.

[Lord Banner (Con)]

My Lords, I think the Minister said earlier that an offence of soliciting would add nothing because of the current established offences in relation to aiding and abetting, et cetera. Can he elaborate on his rationale for that, particularly in circumstances where the primary offence is committed overseas, perhaps in a jurisdiction where it is not actually an offence?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I am afraid I cannot elaborate further, because of the complexity of the situation that the noble Lord highlighted. We realise that it is difficult, and we need to get the law right. I do not want to say that we are taking our time, because this is an absolute government priority. We are in the process of identifying a suitable vehicle to address these issues in this Session of Parliament. The noble Lord makes a good point.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

I am still slightly confused about timing. I am sure the Minister understands the difficulty the House is in here. I think he said—and I would like him to repeat it, if this is the case—that the Government’s intention is to complete their considerations of the issues raised by this, and other matters related to it, within this current Session, rather than within this Parliament. The Session we are currently in is due to come to a close in a reasonably short time. Can he confirm that?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I am very happy to confirm the point that my noble friend has raised. In fact, in my briefing, the words “in this Session” are underlined—so, yes, that is indeed the case.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

Can I ask my noble friend a very simple question? Do the Government anticipate that any woman or girl will ever consent to the creation of what this legislation is aimed at—deepfake pornography to be used for revenge or for misogynistic reasons?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My noble friend raised that point with me the other day, and I checked it with advisers in the department. I think it would be unwise to assume that a woman would never, under any circumstances, consent to images being made.