Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Thursday 16th April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I will say a few words in relation to Motion N1, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Walney, on extreme criminal protest groups. The House should be thanking the noble Lord for his enormous efforts and dedication in relation to this important subject over many years.

There is no doubt about the gravity of the mischief that the United Kingdom is facing. There are extreme criminal protest groups and, sadly, people who believe that the way to advance their political views—to which they are perfectly entitled—about Gaza, Israel and other subjects is impermissibly to use violence against people and to smash up property. It is disgraceful, and the law needs to deal with these people powerfully and effectively. It is symptomatic of a malaise in our society: we saw this the other night at Finchley Reform Synagogue, and with the setting fire to ambulances in north-west London. It is all disgraceful, and every effort must be made by the law to ensure that this type of action can be addressed and remedied.

I supported the noble Lord, Lord Walney, in his amendment on Report, which has now been considered by the Commons. However, I understand—and hope it is the case—that he will not be pressing his Motion today to divide the House. I am sure that is right, and it is right for the reasons the Minister gave.

Jonathan Hall, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, has made some powerful points that need to be considered carefully in relation to how we deal with extreme criminal protest groups. We have heard that the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, will be reporting next month.

There is also the appeal relating to the proscription of Palestine Action, which will be heard in the Court of Appeal the week after next. I very much hope—it is a matter for the court, of course—that the Court of Appeal will give judgment before the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, issues his report. He will obviously wish to take account of that judgment, as will the Home Office.

It is important to stress that there are two important issues raised by the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Walney. The first is whether the law is at its most effective if it requires that, before proscription can occur, a particular body has to be labelled as terrorist. I entirely understand that the actions of Palestine Action have been recognised by the Government to fall within the statutory definition of a terrorist group. The Divisional Court judgment, which has been much criticised, accepts that Palestine Action is indeed a terrorist group. However, there is a real issue here: does it undermine the efficacy of proscription for a body such as Palestine Action to be labelled as terrorist given that, for most people, terrorism has a connotation that many people would not regard as satisfied by a protest group, objectional and damaging though it is? That is something the Home Office needs to give further thought to.

Secondly, the other point which the noble Lord, Lord Walney, emphasised in his Motion—it is a real point—is that the current law does not just proscribe organisations such as Palestine Action; it makes it unlawful for people to stand in a public place and say, “I support Palestine Action”. That has led to hundreds of otherwise law-abiding individuals being arrested, which poses real problems for the administration of justice in this country. It may be better to have a proscription law that does not criminalise the mere expression of support for a body such as Palestine Action, however objectional and unlawful the conduct of that organisation is. Perhaps we should confine the illegality to those who organise such a group, finance it and do more by way of support than simply sitting in a public place saying that they sympathise with that organisation. Those are difficult questions. Jonathan Hall has made some powerful points in relation to them. I am simply saying that I hope the Home Office will give further thought to these matters. I am sure it will.

I thank the Minister because he has laboured hard on this Bill, which covers so many areas. He has responded with sensitivity, tact and courtesy to a wide range of subjects, for which he has all our thanks. He will no doubt be pleased to know that it is absolutely inevitable that these subjects will return to the House. We very much look forward to hearing his further comments under future legislation.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I sincerely apologise to the Minister for not being here for the beginning of his speech. He will be glad to know my athleticism, as I was running down the corridor, allowed for me to be in time for his reference to Motion T, which I will speak to briefly. It deals with the glorification of terrorism. I thank all those who supported the amendment on Report. I believe that, in doing so, we have collectively underlined the importance of dealing with this issue, which is becoming a gateway to extremism and, worse, terrorism.

I thank the Minister in particular for his engagement and that of his officials, and for the constructive way in which they have engaged around the whole issue. As a result, I will not push Motion T1 to a vote today but look forward to engaging in the review that will be put in place after the Bill becomes law. I particularly welcome the opportunity to engage around the review’s terms of reference. I hope it will take the approach of engaging widely to ascertain how a narrative is taking hold in our society here in the UK that it is somehow acceptable to glorify terrorism to effect change, and look at the real damage it can cause to society.

I also hope the review will take note of the fact that there has not been a single prosecution in Northern Ireland, despite the obvious ongoing glorification of terrorism there. I know that the Minister, and many in this House, recognise that this is a growing issue. If there is any doubt that it is very much a real and live issue, a brief glimpse at my social media feeds following Report in this House will confirm this to be the case. One particularly brazen poster said that he wished

“the provos had killed your da when they attacked him. Up the Ra”.

That is a reference to the attempted murder of my father by the IRA in 1979. Of course, that is something that I have become quite resilient to, but it is entirely unacceptable that people can glorify terrorism as a way to make change happen.

Over Easter, when many of us were relaxing with our friends and family, some of those who are content to glorify the actions of the IRA broke into a Church of Ireland Sunday school in a village near to where I live and ransacked it. We know that they were supporters of the IRA because they wrote “Up the Ra” over the 10 commandments. I was pleased to see the local Roman Catholic community condemn that vandalism, but there was complete silence from the political wing of the IRA—in other words, Sinn Féin—and nothing from its local representatives or the self-appointed “First Minister for all”.

As we have said throughout this debate, this is not just a Northern Ireland issue. Here in London, just yesterday, Finchley Reform Synagogue endured what police are calling an antisemitic hate crime, when the shul was attacked in an attempted break-in and firebombing incident. This shul is not only a place of worship for the Jewish community; it also hosts a nursery, a homeless shelter and a safe place for refugees to gather.

Those are two attacks that happened very recently in two different parts of the United Kingdom, in two different faith buildings, both motivated by hate. As Sarah Sackman, the MP for Finchley and Golders Green, said yesterday, we cannot

“allow this to become the ‘new normal’”.

There is a definite need to deal with the glorification of terrorism. It has real consequences for young people being led into extremism and thinking that terrorism is somehow cool and edgy, rather than learning about the fact that it leads to division, pain and hurt, mostly to their neighbours. The radicalisation of children should concern us all in this House.

I thank again all noble Lords who supported the amendment on Report, for highlighting the issue. I thank the Government for responding positively with the announcement of the review led by Jonathan Hall; I look forward to engaging with him. Therefore, I will not move Motion T1.

Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Pannick and Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee

Committee stage
Tuesday 27th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as one of the vice-chairs of the APPG on Counter Extremism, I support the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, in these amendments. He has already referenced the Time to Act publication, which was published late last year and deals with a number of statistics that are quite startling and deserve to go on the record today. It was found that one in five voters— 21%, actually—

“say that political violence in the UK is acceptable in some conditions, and 18% would consider participating in violent protests as the state of Britain declines”.

That is a very concerning thing to read. We know that there has been a nearly 600% rise in antisemitic incidents in the UK following 7 October 2023. We also know that anti-Muslim hate has doubled over this last decade. Those are statistics that cannot be ignored. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, outlined why she finds some difficulty with these amendments, but there is recognition in the report that extremism

“is one of the primary domestic security and societal threats facing the UK”.

When the noble Baroness was detailing some examples of extremism, the noble and right reverend Lord asked why people were not prosecuted. I would argue—and I know that the noble and right reverend Lord will recognise that I have an amendment later in the day—that the glorification of terrorism needs to be much more clearly defined in law. We will come to that later in the amendments. Defeating terrorism is not just about dealing with it from a military point of view but about dealing with the narrative around those terrorist organisations—“draining the swamp”, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, would put it. We are allowing glorification to continue on the streets of our country and then not recognising that extremism will grow as a result. I hope that when we come to debate that issue, there will be a good airing of the issues around the glorification of terrorism.

The first thing we need to do in this area is to recognise that there is a problem, and then to define the problem and move on to understand it and deal with it. I very much welcome these amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I share the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, and indeed by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, but I am very doubtful that further legislation is required. There is, as previous speakers have said, a very worrying degree of antisemitic extremist speech, particularly, I am sorry to say, in the Muslim community and not just in speeches in mosques. Opposition to the policies of the Israeli Government—opposition shared by many Jews—cannot begin to justify such speech.

The sort of people who murdered Jews in Heaton Park synagogue come from a community. They have been to school in this country. They are members of mosques. The real question is how the whole community, not only the Muslim community, is going to address this problem. I know, and the Minister will no doubt confirm, that the Government do a great deal to ensure that civic values and the lessons to be learned from the Holocaust are taught in schools, but I fear that much more needs to be done and there really is a responsibility on the leaders of the Muslim community to take further steps to ensure that those lessons are understood.

It is, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said, particularly poignant that this issue is raised on Holocaust Memorial Day, and sad that these matters need to be readdressed. It is a problem in our society; it needs to be dealt with, but, as I say, I am very doubtful that legislation is the answer.