Transport: London Bridge Station

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

As your Lordships know, I am always happy to meet on these issues, so that is something that I shall be glad to try to accommodate. Whether we need to do so in two phases or one is not entirely clear but I hope that we can discuss this matter. The underlying issue of congestion on the railways is obviously behind many of the problems that we face. This massive set of improvements around the London Bridge area, costing about £1.5 billion, will play an absolutely key role in removing one of the major bottlenecks in the system, even though it will take several years to achieve that.

[Lord Palmer (CB)]

My Lords, are not the fiasco at London Bridge, and indeed the chaos at Finsbury Park—I was caught up in it after Christmas—and Paddington, a very good cause to renationalise everything to do with our railways?

[Baroness Kramer]

I point out to your Lordships that quite a number of the problems that have occurred have been National Rail problems, which is the one part of the system that we directly own. One of the lessons that I have learnt from watching all the problems that have been taking place—they are inexcusable and must be dealt with—is that the rail network is complex and that there is a need to make sure that it is in manageable sections which, although they have to work together, are totally driven around their primary responsibility.

Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Monday 3rd November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Palmer (CB)]

My Lords, I fully support this amendment. The happiest moments of my week are when I get a kiss from all the onboard staff on the east coast line on Thursday lunchtime. It is incredibly important to realise that we have had two failed privatisations on the east coast line. Even at this last stage, very late in the day, I hope and pray the Government will not denationalise the east coast line. In my view—and I spend an enormous amount of my life on the east coast line—it would be absolutely mad, especially bearing in mind the two failed franchise bids.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I spend a great deal of my time on the west coast line. All I can say is that when for one reason or other I use the east coast, I look at it with some envy. It is a very successful operation. I cannot believe that this is happening for any reason other than ideological commitment. That is a daft way to run an essential national public service. Pragmatism is the order of the day.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley referred to what is happening with Eurostar. I find it extraordinarily irresponsible that a railway system of that kind, which is so basic to the strength of our economy and well-being—the European market, whether we are in the Common Market or not, is so crucial to our economic success—should be handed away from public accountability and control. That is a basic lifeline. Of course this is happening in other industries as well. When I read of the Chinese coming in on certain strategic areas, I begin to wonder where on earth our economic policies tie up with our strategic analysis of the world in which we live.

The great thing to remember—my noble friend Lord Berkeley referred to this too—is that when public companies on the European mainland take the opportunity to provide public services in this country, they do so in a context in which in their own countries this is not seen as an ideological test of purity but a matter of pragmatism: what makes sense to be practically and pragmatically in the public sector and what makes sense in the private sector. In that context, they have been highly successful.

I personally favour—and I find myself cheered to realise that the majority of public opinion seems to be in that direction—a completely publicly owned rail system within this country because it is so crucial to our economy and every other matter. I also think it has a good deal to do with the morale of those working on it. If they feel they are actually providing a public service, and get a professional pride from providing a public service rather that simply providing profits, that has an impact and some significance.

If we are not to have that in the Bill—I hope we may have it at some stage—then it seems that this is a very effective damage limitation exercise. Nobody could accuse it of being doctrinaire politics because it accepts that the private sector will be there; it just says, is it not sensible? If the opportunity occurs, it makes pragmatic good sense and there is a rational way to undertake it, the public sector should be running part of the railway system. It would be a very good test of the comparative merits of both. I find the present situation ridiculous and I am alarmed that this kind of oversimplified thinking can dictate policy on something as vital to our economy as this.

Railways: Passenger Demand

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, we would be looking at something like 14 years of weekend closures, which is extraordinary disruption. That assumes a very aggressive construction schedule of two simultaneous schemes on each route at any one time. If it was done in a more usual pattern, there would be even more weekends of closures. The question of freight is a serious one, because the alternatives would not add a single additional freight path on the southern section of the west coast main line, whereas, by transferring long distance passengers to HS2, there is a possibility of up to 20 additional freight paths on that same congested set of lines.

[Lord Palmer (CB)]

Could the Minister explain why the Government are so keen to denationalise the east coast main line when it is performing so well and contributing so generously to Treasury funds? I declare an interest as a frequent traveller on that line.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I shall reply only briefly, because this wanders away from the topic of the Question. The important issue is that we need significant investment in the east coast main line. The Government and DOR have done an excellent job of stabilising the service; we look to the future and to investment and growth. That is why the Government are making the decision to move ahead with the franchise, to provide a far better and improved service in future.

Railways: Crossrail

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that the tunnel-boring machines were not made in the UK. Each one costs about £10 million, which is a relatively small proportion of the overall project. UK businesses have benefited from the award of 97% of the contracts in the Crossrail supply chain, with 58% of contracts awarded to SMEs and 43% awarded beyond London and the south-east.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, has the noble Earl’s department given any thought to whether Crossrail ought to be renamed, perhaps in honour of Her Majesty the Queen after 60 years of loyal service on the Throne?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is an issue for the Mayor, but it is a very interesting idea and something that we will consider. There are a number of examples of railway infrastructure being named after the monarch or royal events, such as the Victoria line, Victoria station and the Jubilee line.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Tuesday 4th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first question, the short answer is no. During the three years to 2012, the Treasury received £411 million and £450 million from the east coast and west coast rail franchises respectively. This is completely separate from the money that the DfT paid to Virgin Trains as part of the revenue-based risk-sharing mechanism, which by its nature is variable, so the statement that my right honourable friend made is factually accurate. The bottom line is that the plans that we have set out will drive improvements to rail services and put passengers at the heart of a revitalised rail franchising system. It is also important to remember that rail franchises are not directly comparable.

It was never intended for the east coast main line to remain in the public sector. Indeed, when the then Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, explained in this House in July 2009 the decision to bring the line into public control, he said:

“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely”.—[Official Report, 1/7/09; col. 232.]

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, I must declare an interest, as the House of Lords pays an enormous amount of money to get me travelling from Berwick-upon-Tweed to here, and, indeed, my family spends an awful lot of money on buying their tickets. Since the east coast service is operating remarkably successfully and is working well, why is there this desperate need and hurry to denationalise it?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, many noble Lords have privately approached me and said how well the east coast franchise is working under DOR. However, we need a longer-term investment plan for the future. The Brown review finds that franchising is a fundamentally sound approach for securing the passenger railway services on which so many people rely. The Government remain committed to benefiting from private sector innovation and operational experience in their railways.

Energy: Biofuels

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that ministerial meetings will continue. I am not sure that it would be helpful for me to have meetings because I do not think that I can add anything to the work that my honourable friend Norman Baker undertakes. However, it may be helpful if I explain the problem to the House. The noble Baroness and I desire the same end state: the reduction of carbon emissions. The problem, however, is that if we increase the level of obligation at the moment, there may be undesirable, indirect land-use change problems right around the world, and that could increase the level of carbon emissions. It certainly would not reduce them to the extent that we would like. We have the same objectives as the noble Baroness—I assure her of that—and we still have the ability to get to where we want to in 2020, but we have to be mindful of indirect land-use change problems.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, does the noble Earl not agree that this exciting new biofuels industry is greatly hampered by the fact that four different government departments are involved in it? I declare an interest as the president of the British Association of Biofuels and Oils.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept that several government departments are involved; however, officials do talk to each other. The Secretary of State, Ed Davey, was representing the UK in Europe, trying to find a solution to the ILUC problems.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, one of the concerns I have identified in private conversations with the noble Lord is the possibility of distorting the market in UCO and biodiesel by importations of ethanol. I will happily raise that with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, as one of the instigators of the RTFO, is it not a scandal that our commitment is met by only 11% from home-produced fuel in this country? I must declare an interest as president of the transport division of the Renewable Energy Association.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Lord is making but we are bound by the WTO trade rules and EU state aid rules.

Energy: Biofuels

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, although I agree with my noble friend’s analysis, he needs to understand that these fuels are also traded internationally in large quantities.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that, in reality, the RTFO is in a complete shambles, most especially because it is answerable to four different government departments? I ought perhaps to declare an interest: along with the late Lord Carter and others, I was responsible for persuading the previous Labour Government to implement the RTFO.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, several government departments may be involved but my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker is in charge of the policy. It is complicated, but I believe that it is a good and efficient policy that provides biofuels in a most efficient way.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, before the Motion is put to the House, I should like to draw to the attention of the House the fact that the report of the Merits Committee on this order was published last Thursday. Nine noble Lords then debated the order yesterday in the Moses Room so we all expected that some notice would be taken. This morning the order appeared on the Order Paper and so there has been no opportunity to consider what was said in the Moses Room. This does not reflect well on the House or show that the Government really value the opinions of Peers before they place matters on the Order Paper.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, I should like to echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. Surely it must be an insult to those of us who spent 90 minutes yesterday in the Moses Room in that the noble Earl agreed to come back to several of us on many major points at issue on this extremely complex subject. Now, less than 24 hours later, we are being asked on the Floor of the House to agree to the order.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister had a difficult time with this order yesterday, not least because, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, indicated, the Merits Committee took a rather dim view of its inadequacies. Her Majesty’s Opposition think that this order should go through because of the real urgency of the position for the industry. But what I sought to point out yesterday, and what other noble Lords pointed out more forcefully than I did, were the inadequacies of the instrument. I am certainly of the view that we should let it go through today but I hope that the Minister will take on board the fact that the criticisms yesterday were serious ones and that we expected the Government to have taken a more definitive position on the issue so as to reassure the industry in circumstances where underinvestment in this very important sector is occurring because of a complete lack of confidence in government policy. The Minister should therefore not be surprised that he is being pressed further today, as indeed he was yesterday.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Lord Palmer Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2011 Grand Committee

This may be a piece of secondary legislation, but it is of the utmost importance. It is very difficult to see how we will meet our targets in this area; I welcome the fact that we have this order before us, but we have real challenges.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl very much for his, dare I say, easy-to-understand introduction of this order. This subject is becoming more and more complicated, and when the original band of four—the late Lord Carter, the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, and myself—persuaded the Government to accept the original RTFO, little did we think that the waters would become so muddied, and the UK biodiesel industry would be in such limbo.

This is such a complex subject, covering three different government departments and, of course, not to be forgotten, the Treasury. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, made the point about used cooking oil, so I shall not repeat that by saying what I intended to say. But it must not be forgotten that investment in manufacturing for UK biofuels has been well over £500 million in the past five years. I declare an interest as a grower of industrial oilseed rape, albeit that my wife is a fossil-fuel explorator.

Investors are ready and waiting to invest a further £200 million at least in the next year, and more thereafter, if they can get clarity on the pathway to reach the renewable energy directive target of 10 per cent by 2020. This is private sector money, and the industry does not, and will not, rely on government subsidies. It must not be forgotten that UK biofuels are among the most sustainable in the world and provide a vast array of jobs for United Kingdom citizens, most especially in the deprived area of the north-east of England.

The lack of clarity in policy—in particular, a dead stop in the UK’s renewable transport targets at 5 per cent by April 2014—is sending a negative signal to investors and I strongly believe that we must get a commitment beyond 2014. We know that we can supply up to 80 per cent of the 10 per cent target and it is incredibly important that these are all from home-made biofuels that are sustainable. I hope the noble Earl will take this on board. If we turn investors away, we will condemn the UK road transport sector to be the greatest carbon emitter in the country for the next 20 years. Is this really what we want? I urge the Government most strongly to confirm the 10 per cent target and the pathway to reach it before investors disappear completely and the RTFO is in utter shreds.

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to speak on this subject. I also want to make a general comment about how this order was introduced. I worked for Friends of the Earth when the original Bill was being promoted in the House of Lords, and the reason that Friends of the Earth supported this Bill then was because we could see that the overriding priority was climate change and that we needed to seek renewable energy use in all forms of energy, not just electricity but heat and transport. So this was an important part of a suite of measures to address climate change.

In general, the order put forward today is very welcome. It is necessary to have sustainability criteria. I echo the noble Lord’s comments that when we started out on this track no one could anticipate the degree of complexity that would come from this order, but measures are being taken to address problems as they arise. One way to address problems more easily could be by focusing more on indigenous use, growth and production of renewable fuels in the UK, where we can control the sustainability far more clearly. I would like to see more from the Government about how we can promote UK-grown biofuels.

The great weakness in the order at the moment is, as has been mentioned, the cliff face where we have no trajectory beyond 2014. It was interesting to note that the noble Earl seemed to be presenting it as something to be proud of that we have not committed to a trajectory. That is questionable and really damages investor confidence. The obligation is phrased as a percentage of overall fossil fuels sold. This means that not only do we have no growth in the percentage but we could have a declining volume of fuels being provided from this order because vehicles are getting more efficient and we are seeing a reduction in overall fuel use in this sector, especially as we move towards electrification of vehicles.

The Government’s own modelling should show declining use of fossil fuels, which therefore means that the percentage in this order is also declining. We are not even standing still. This is a really serious issue and I would like the noble Earl to address this when he responds. All the reasons given for not committing to a trajectory are to do with the volume of fuels expected because of concerns about sustainability impacts. However, because it is a percentage, you could have the same volume but just growing in percentage terms. That does not really work and we need to see more clarity on why there is no trajectory and the damaging effect that this has on the investment community and UK business. I really want to see something from the Government to put these fears to rest at a time when we should be seeking to encourage all investment into renewable and sustainable forms of energy.

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, this is a very difficult subject, as the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, said. It is of interest that the department has not produced its statistics up to April 2011—although we are in December. I also have a perception that the department has come to this instrument with a certain amount of reluctance—I do not think it likes it very much. The reason why it does not like it is absolutely understandable. The information upon which the order is based is very sketchy indeed. I used to be on the Merits Committee, and I probably spoke on another order on this subject some time ago. When I was on the Merits Committee I do not remember there being five impact assessments—all done during the summer holidays, I notice. That must be close to a record.

Before getting on to the instrument itself I wanted to make two points. The first one is about a holistic approach. It does not make sense, in the context of climate change, to talk only about fuel, and not about fuel consumption or about emission control coming out of modern cars. There needs to be a much more rounded approach. The European instruments which have been put into place, no doubt agreed by ourselves in a Council of Ministers, are not at all fit for purpose. In fact, I am pretty sure that they are completely unfit for purpose. There needs to be a much more radical look at how we look at the whole picture.

My second point follows up what the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, said about UK production. I think I am right in saying that at the moment, of the biofuels that we use in this country, 90 per cent is imported and only 10 per cent is produced in the United Kingdom. Those are the Department for Transport’s own statistics. The great majority of that is produced from tallow and waste cooking oil. On Teesside—I come from the north-east and reject the description of it being “deprived”, which is not right—there is a quarter of a million tonne plant—

[Lord Palmer]

I am sorry; I did not mean that in any derogatory way. I know that unemployment in the north-east is a good deal higher than in other parts of the country, which is why I was urging for more investment in the north-east. I hope the noble Viscount does not take my comments in any derogatory way, because they were not intended as such.

[Viscount Eccles]

I thank the noble Lord for that, but there are some people in the north-east who are very good at making the most of the difficulties that we have in the economy. It does not do us any good to overplay our hand.

There is a very large plant, which I know. It was engineered in large part by somebody with whom I used to work, and it is extremely well engineered. The company that was going to operate it went out of business. It is now owned, and, to a certain extent—I do not know quite how much—operated by Harvest, which is one of the suppliers of biofuels. It was designed to process rapeseed oil. My information is that it is not processing any rapeseed at all. I really question the whole future of the United Kingdom’s own production from the standard feedstock in temperate climates, which is rapeseed. I do not know what the position is.

It is notable that in the instrument and the impact assessments there is hardly a mention of rapeseed, and no references are made to United Kingdom production from rapeseed. Of course, rapeseed is a food; you can buy rapeseed oil in any supermarket, and it is very good for cooking. However, so is soya bean. The three principle feedstocks for biofuels—two for diesel—are soya bean, palm oil, and of course, rapeseed.

The soya bean is responsible for 50 per cent of the world’s supplies of vegetable oil. How will you determine whether a particular lot of soya comes from a sustainable source? I should declare a past interest: an organisation I was involved with used to grow soya beans in Zambia. We grew about 40 per cent of Zambia’s vegetable oil supplies in that area of the country—it was a very big operation. I have also been a palm oil grower. As for bioethanol, I have also been a sugar cane grower. I could volunteer to be a verifier; I would know what I was looking at. I have seen all sorts of land transferred, for example, from growing coconut trees to oil palms—but what was the land before coconuts were grown on it? My goodness, it was forest until somebody thought, “We need some food”. So they cleared the land and grew coconuts. Then the coconut industry became unremunerative and the coconut trees were replaced by oil palms.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will write in detail to the noble Lord on the issue of used cooking oil and see if I can draft a letter that will meet his concerns. At the moment I am convinced that this is a sensible policy.

[Lord Palmer]

My Lords, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, emphasises what a complex issue this is, because it goes back to the Treasury. When the noble Earl writes to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, perhaps he could kindly copy us all in so we can be kept abreast of the situation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is standard procedure to write to all noble Lords who have taken part in any of these debates.

The noble Lord, Lord Reay, asked me several interesting questions. First, he asked if there were any suggestions that adding biofuel to fossil fuel reduces fuel efficiency. Yes, biofuel is less energy-dense but we are blending only low volumes. He asked about the proportion of biofuels supplied today under the RTFO that comes from crops. The latest published figures indicate that two-thirds comes from crops. He also asked about the cost to the motorist to date, which has been between £300 million and £400 million per year at current market prices. He asked whether, after consulting on a number of options, we are keeping the buyout mechanism. The answer is yes. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, the buyout mechanism is in place to provide a safety valve that will protect both industry and the consumer from spikes in the cost of supplying biofuel. It will allow obligated suppliers to buy up part or all of their obligation, rather than meeting it by redeeming the RTFCs that are issued to those supplying sustainable biofuels. The cost of buying out is 30p per litre of fuel that the supplier would otherwise have been obligated to supply.

The noble Lord also asked about the efficiency and effectiveness of biofuels, and whether there were any problems. He will recall that I recently answered an Oral Question in the Chamber about ethanol and petrol, which can cause some problems. However, they are not insurmountable.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked me what I would say in response to industry concerns that there has been inadequate time to prepare for this and that consultation on the RTFO guidance has been very brief. We have no intention of delaying transposition and implementation. The renewable energy directive was published in 2009 and set mandatory sustainability criteria for biofuels. The implementation of the criteria should not come as a surprise to industry. Those companies that have taken the opportunity to report on a voluntary basis and to establish a sustainable biofuel supply chain will be well placed to meet the requirements of an amended RTFO.