Drugs Policy

Lord Norton of Louth Excerpts

Monday 21st November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Norton of Louth (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, on raising the question and I declare an interest as an officer of the all-party group. It is five years since I tabled a Question for Short Debate asking what consideration the Government had given to establishing a royal commission on the law governing drug use and possession. The timing was deliberate, coming 40 years after the UN Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs was promulgated and the Misuse of Drugs Act was passed.

I made two points by way of introduction. First, I stressed that I believe strongly in having evidence-based policy. As I said then, I am appalled at how much legislation is brought forward more on the basis of hope than evidence. Secondly, the best way to affect attitudes and behaviour is through education and persuasion. I repeat what I said then:

“The law alone cannot achieve change, and indeed it can be dangerous to rest on the law in place of education”.—[Official Report, 9/3/11; col. 1673.]

I drew the distinction between drug use and prohibition. Prohibition can have and has had appalling consequences—a point made powerfully by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell. I advocated a commission or some other body of inquiry to examine the facts and to undertake an evidence-based inquiry.

The Minister replying to my question on that occasion said that the subject was one that excites disagreement. It may well do, but the only person who disagreed with me in the debate was the Minister. Everyone else who spoke, on all sides of the House, supported the case for review. In effect, what we were arguing for then is encapsulated in the call now by UN officials. It is crucial that the Government should recognise the problem as one of health, that we start from the problem of drug use and evaluate the evidence on the way to tackle the problem.

The danger is that the Government adopt a mindset that is resistant to change and, as a result of that mindset, are reluctant to consider dispassionately the evidence that does exist and are reluctant to commission evidence to help identify what needs to be done. Part of the reluctance appears to be a fear of public opinion. I think that fear is overblown and indeed not necessarily evidence based—but, in any event, what we need is what has been shown by some Governments elsewhere, not least on the American continent, and that is leadership to address what is a very real global and national problem.

I look forward to my noble friend Lady Williams confirming that the Government accept the need for evidence-based policy, for being as transparent as possible in sharing that evidence, and to hearing what the Government plan to do to acquire, evaluate and act on that evidence.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [HL]

Lord Norton of Louth Excerpts

Tuesday 14th July 2015 Lords Chamber

We will have a report, as promised, from the Government within 30 months of certain clauses coming into effect, and that will feed usefully into post-legislative scrutiny. But as my noble friend Lord Rosser said, we will need in addition regular annual reports that are adequate in range and depth.

[Lord Norton of Louth (Con)]

My Lords, I would not dissent from the points that have been made about what should go into an annual report. I rise very briefly to comment on Amendment 55 and to commend my noble friend Lord Bates for tabling it; it is extremely helpful. He has already touched on it and the reasons for it, and I just reinforce that. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, did not I think disagree with having the review, but suggested that there should be a second one later on. The point I would make is that there will be: most Acts are now subject to review four to five years after enactment, so this measure would come up for review at that point in the normal course of events. What we have here is an early review, which is eminently sensible in the context of this measure, and it is being done on a statutory basis. I have long advocated post-legislative review. I think it is an excellent thing and now, as I say, it has been brought in as a matter of course. But, where necessary, it is very valuable for it to be made on a statutory basis, for it to be included in a measure so that it is a firm provision. It will be reviewed within 30 months, which, in the context of the measure, is an appropriate period. I commend the Government for bringing this amendment forward.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

My Lords, I undertook to reflect on the various amendments that were tabled in Committee. Having reflected, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, stated, we have brought forward Amendment 55 in this group.

As I indicated in Committee, post-legislative scrutiny of all primary legislation takes place three to five years after Royal Assent. We accept that there is a case here for special treatment. The Government are bringing forward their post-legislative scrutiny of this particular piece of legislation and will place a review of the operation of the Act on a statutory footing.

We remain firmly of the view that that the duty to undertake a review should be a one-off requirement, rather than a continuing annual requirement with all the costs that that would entail. We are not persuaded of the benefit of undertaking a bespoke review of this legislation year after year. I appreciate that the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is not confined to a review of this legislation, but my point about the resource constraints carries ever more weight when one looks down the list of matters to be addressed in the noble Lord’s annual review of the Government’s drugs strategy.

Given these considerations, the Government’s amendment simply requires a review of the operation of the Act and places a duty on the Home Secretary to prepare a report on the review and lay a copy of the report before both Houses of Parliament within 30 months of the Bill coming into force. As noble Lords know, a period of 30 months has been specified in order to allow for the collection of up to two years’ worth of data post implementation.

The need for a review of the Bill was one of the issues raised by the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs in its letter of 2 July to the Home Secretary. In the Home Secretary’s response, published yesterday, she said:

“The Home Office is keen to work with the ACMD and would welcome the opportunity to have an early discussion on both the scale and scope of the review having regard to resource constraints, and how to make best use of existing data and evidence”.

Until we have had those discussions with the advisory council, it would be wrong to commit now to the review taking a particular form. I can say that I would expect the review to cover much of the ground identified in the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser.

Turning to Amendment 54 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, I agree that many of the issues he raises need to be looked at from time to time. That is why we already produce an annual review of our 2010 drugs strategy. The most recent annual review was published in February and highlighted the progress made across the three strands of the strategy—namely, reducing demand, restricting supply and building recovery. The report also set out our future commitments, including new initiatives and actions to respond to emerging evidence and the changing nature of the drugs market.

I recognise that substance misuse is not an issue that government can tackle alone. We value contributions made by our key partners to support the delivery of the 2010 strategy, including: our independent experts, the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs; law enforcement agencies, including the National Crime Agency; international partners; and those working within the prevention, treatment and recovery sector. We are also committed to ensuring that, where possible, we assess the effectiveness and value for money of the 2010 strategy. Furthermore, our action to restrict the supply of illicit drugs is complemented by activity through the serious and organised crime strategy, which was launched in 2013 and which has been the subject of its own annual report. Together, the strategies are making significant steps forward in tackling the supply of drugs by organised criminals in the UK and overseas.

We recognise that drugs are a complex and evolving issue, so we will continue to develop the strategy and consider other approaches to help us respond to emerging threats and challenges. We will also continue to report in a proportionate way on progress in tackling these threats and meeting these challenges. I hope that noble Lords will agree that on reflection the approach taken in Amendment 55, coupled with the existing reporting on the 2010 drugs strategy, is the right way forward and, on that basis, that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [HL]

Lord Norton of Louth Excerpts

Tuesday 30th June 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Norton of Louth]

15: Clause 3, page 2, line 9, leave out “or vary”

[Lord Norton of Louth (Con)]

My Lords, Clause 3(2)(a) permits the Secretary of State by regulation to amend Schedule 1 in order to add or vary any description of substance, while Clause 3(2)(b) permits the Secretary of State by regulation to remove any description of substance added under paragraph (a). I appreciate that any regulation made under this provision has to be by statutory instrument, subject to affirmative resolution. I appreciate that paragraph (b), which, on the face of it, appears to be a Henry VIII power, is limited by the fact that the Minister can seek to utilise it only to remove a substance that the Minister has added under paragraph (a). A Minister cannot seek to remove a substance that is exempted under the measure as enacted.

However, I have a concern about the provision under paragraph (a) to vary the description of any substance. This concern is shared by the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House, and I declare an interest as a member of that committee. In its report published at the beginning of last week, the committee draws attention to the fact that the power to vary any description of substance could presumably be employed to narrow the description of such substances, thereby expanding the range of substances brought within the ambit of the Bill’s provisions.

The power to seek to vary the description of substance is subject to it being exercised by a statutory instrument but, given the breadth of the power and the absence of any definition of what is meant by varying a description of substance, that may be deemed an inadequate safeguard. Exercising the power by statutory instrument may be necessary but it may not be sufficient.

This is compounded by the fact that, as the Constitution Committee notes, the power to add, remove or vary the description of substances is not constrained by any explicit statement of the purpose or purposes for which the power may be exercised. Any constraint would have to be inferred from the scheme of the Bill but that may be difficult given that, as the committee notes,

“the Bill adopts an ostensibly neutral conception of what should constitute a (non-exempted) psychoactive substance”.

There is no notion of harm embodied explicitly in the Bill, so one cannot adumbrate clearly the range of substances upon which its provisions have effect. Given the wide power conferred by paragraph (a) to vary any description of substance, some amendment to the clause to make clear the meaning of vary would seem appropriate, along with a statement of the purpose or purposes for which the power may be exercised; in short, making it clear what it is and when it would be appropriate to use it.

If the Minister were to indicate that the Government would be prepared to consider amending the Bill along those lines, that would allay concerns about the broad and undefined powers given by this clause. Without such an assurance, the prudent course would be to remove altogether the provision to vary any description of substance. That would leave the Minister with the capacity to add by regulation and to remove by regulation anything added. That would offer at least some clarity in a way that we do not have at the moment. One either defines what is meant by varying a description of substance or one removes the term from the Bill. The amendment, by providing for removal, is designed to concentrate the Minister’s mind. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend and I have Amendments 20, 21, 47 and 48 in this group. First, I welcome the introduction of this issue in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, which, as he said, was considered by the Constitution Committee. We are lucky to have committees which manage to just about keep ahead of the game in looking at legislation and helping the rest of the House in raising such issues. It is a very important point.

My amendments are in two pairs and both regard the regulations. One of each pair provides that when the Secretary of State consults before making regulations, as well as consulting those whom she considers to be appropriate, she should specifically consult the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs both with regard to exempted substances under Clause 3 and excepting certain actions in regard to offences under Clause 10. The second amendment in each pair provides that she must also make a report to Parliament on the consultation. I have added that assuming that that is what would happen but I seek the Minister’s confirmation.

A number of people commenting on this Bill have said that the ACMD seems to have been sidelined when it should be upfront and the centre of what we are doing. I hope that this small point—it is not a small issue, but a small insertion—is something that the Minister and the Secretary of State would be glad to confirm as proper to be in the Bill.

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[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister. I shall look forward to further discussions with him, and I know the Constitution Committee will be very interested in his response to its report.

I listened with great interest to what my noble friend said. On defining the term “to vary” he offered a description but not necessarily a compelling argument for why a description should not be in the Bill. I appreciate that the power to vary will be subject to the affirmative resolution, but that places a burden on the House to establish criteria for assessment when the instrument is brought forward, whereas it may provide better discipline for the criteria to be established in the Bill. We can say no when the instrument is brought forward, but there may be a case for it not to be brought forward in the first place to make it clear to the Government what should and should not be permissible. So I am not necessarily persuaded that the Government should be given the essentially unrestricted power in Clause 3. One can have a little too much flexibility.

However, I look forward to discussing this further with my noble friend and, in the mean time, beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 15 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Norton of Louth]

29: Schedule 1, page 34, leave out lines 25 to 29

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[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, my amendment would remove alcohol from the list of exempted substances in Schedule 1. The purpose of tabling the amendment is to enable the Minister to do that which he did not have time to do at Second Reading: to provide an intellectual justification for the exclusion of alcohol from the provisions of the Bill.

Alcohol has the effects listed in Clause 2(2) and as developed by the Minister in responding in Committee on Amendment 7. Why, then, is it an exempted substance? The logic of the Bill is, on the face of it, unclear. It seeks to prohibit psychoactive substances that are seen to be harmful, but it then exempts the substance that is the most harmful of all in human, social and economic terms. Alcohol misuse kills, it rips families apart, it puts strain on public services—the police and the NHS—and it has enormous economic consequences for public services and for employers in working days lost. There are at least 5,000 alcohol-related deaths a year. If one includes deaths where alcohol is causally implicated, the figure rises to some 20,000, a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, at Second Reading.

Alcohol abuse remains the leading risk factor in deaths among men and women aged 15 to 49 in the United Kingdom. In 2012-13, there were more than 1 million hospital admissions related to alcohol consumption, and almost 300,000 were wholly attributable to alcohol consumption or classed as alcohol specific. Alcohol abuse not only harms those who drink but impacts on society as well. Heavy drinking can not only damage one’s physical and mental health but lead to assaults and leave one vulnerable to assault. There were nearly 10,000 casualties of drink-driving the UK in 2012, including 230 killed. In almost half of all violent incidents, the victim believed that the offender was under the influence of alcohol. Perhaps most remarkable of all, according to Alcohol Concern, the NHS estimates that some 9% of men and 4% of women in the UK show signs of alcohol dependence; that the cost of alcohol misuse in England is an estimated £21 billion in healthcare, crime and lost productivity; that the cost to the hard-pressed NHS is £3.5 billion; and that the cost in terms of crime is £11 billion. It is difficult to comprehend the sheer scale of the social and economic cost.

Why do we continue to tolerate heavy drinking and many city centres being awash with drunken youths on Saturday evenings, and why are we willing to excuse clearly inebriated individuals in all sorts of social settings but do not tolerate those who take other psychoactive substances? Why is one type of misuse apparently culturally acceptable, or at least tolerated, but not the other? Should we not adopt the same approach to all psychoactive substances that can produce serious personal, social and economic harm? Why do we seek to ban the manufacture and distribution of one but not the other? My noble friend may say that the answer is purely practical: that we cannot ban the production and sale of alcohol because such a ban would be unenforceable; we would be emulating the USA of the 1920s. If that is the case, let us have that on the record. Is the use of legal highs on such a scale that a ban on their production and distribution can be enforced, or, at least, is that the justification? If so, what is the evidence that such a prohibition is enforceable? What consideration has been given to the alternatives?

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[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord is right. We will go back and look again at those Written Answers. We are alert to the risk of powdered alcohol and are actively looking at how best to meet this challenge. However, we are not persuaded by this amendment. We are alert to the problem and are looking at it. I will be happy to meet with the noble Lord, together with officials, if he has new evidence to share with us about how the problem of powdered alcohol is being tackled in other countries and if and how it is being used in this country.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has spoken. It has been a useful discussion for getting certain matters on the record. We may have done a public service by finding out what the Opposition’s policy is on this matter.

The Minister’s response—and, indeed, my noble friend Lord Blencathra, to some extent—made my case for me. The point that we have established is that there is no principled case for the exemption. The Minister basically said that it is difficult to ban it, that we are where we are and that it brings in a lot of money to the Treasury. That has to be set against the damage that alcohol misuse causes, as I have detailed and, indeed, as my noble friend confirmed in the data that he placed before us. My noble friends Lord Blencathra and the Minister made the point that I was making—that in relation to alcohol there is an approach of regulate and educate—so why are we not being consistent? That is the issue that I was raising and it is important that it is borne in mind. If we are going to proceed, we have to be clear about why we are doing this. Where is the consistency? What is the intellectual case? As we have heard—as my noble friend confirmed—there is not one.

I am sure my noble friend will be relieved to know that I do not intend to press the amendment, nor is it something that would lend itself to come back to on Report. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, who has raised an important issue which is worth pursuing. I do not intend to pursue the broad issue that I have raised, but I hope that throughout our discussions this will remain the elephant in the room. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 29 withdrawn.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [HL]

Lord Norton of Louth Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Norton of Louth (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and to reinforce the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, looking particularly at information—in this instance, under Amendment 11, information directed at users. That struck me as the key point in the amendment because the Bill is concerned primarily—necessarily so—with those who produce the substances. The danger is leaving out those who might then consume them. They are not doing anything illegal, but we should not leave them out of the discussion about them being better informed about the effects of the substances.

We will come on to education in Amendment 13. That might be useful in deterring people who want to take substances in the first place. It might be a bit optimistic, but I think that is eminently sensible. But what about those who are users and making sure they are at least informed as a consequence of what we are talking about? I am a little concerned if we focus solely on production and what we do about that, without thinking about those who are still prone to consume these substances. I am not particularly wedded to the particular amendments the noble Lord proposes, but I am very much at one with him in the intent and in what he is calling attention to: making sure we do not lose sight of that dimension. I will be very keen to hear the Minister’s response. If we are not deterring them—my hope would be that we would—I cannot see what the difficulty would be in having some regime for providing that sort of information.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, there are effectively three amendments here. One is Amendment 11, whose essence is guidance. All three may have some merit and we would be very interested in the Minister’s reply. The first one on guidance would seem to be very important for potential users. Also, of course, it would meet a concern which we were lobbied about regarding the retail sector, which clearly is going to have problems given this Bill. It is going to need some guidance and it may have to try and generate its own if the Government do not help. I would be very interested about what the Government have to say on that.

Proposed new paragraph (a) in Amendment 12 and the availability of information on the internet also seems sensible to me. It does not mean we are softening our general position on the Bill. Good information provided by government has to be a good thing. I would be very interested in the Government’s response to the proposal relating to testing centres. At first sight, it looks rather over the top, but on the other hand the Government are committed I believe—and it is very important how carefully this response comes across—to a much more comprehensive approach to testing, to support the Bill. That will give us some tangible evidence that the Bill will work. I hope the Government will take these three areas seriously and, depending on their response, we may take this further with the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on Report.

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[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I thank the noble Lord for that, but there is a well-established system for issuing a national alert. Any intelligence that Public Health England receives alerting it to the identifiable problem of a batch of drugs likely to cause a significant risk in England is acted on. There was an example earlier this year. There was a warning from Madrid that Superman pills sold as ecstasy containing PMMA were found in Spain. This followed the tragic deaths in England over the Christmas period caused by similar Superman pills. PHE took immediate action and issued a warning that these highly dangerous drugs may still be in circulation. Public Health England is working with partners to accelerate the review already under way on how drug alert systems in the UK can be improved, including how they join up with intelligence from Europe.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

I agree with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe—you start from the basis that it is harmful and ascend in order of degree of harm. I take what my noble friend said about there being a mechanism for identifying them already and for disseminating that, but could she say a little more about the dissemination? How far does it go? The concern is whether it actually reaches the users or stops at an earlier point in trying to prevent the dissemination of the drugs. How much is there a greater awareness of and sensitivity to those who are in danger of consuming these substances?

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I thank my noble friend Lord Norton for that. That is probably covered by FRANK, which is an element of our broad approach to prevention. We are investing in a range of programmes that have a positive impact on young people and adults, giving them the confidence, resilience and risk-management skills to resist drug use. It has been a valuable resource for young people, parents and teachers, especially when used for wider resilience-building and behaviour change. It continues to be updated to reflect new and emerging patterns of drug use and to evolve to remain in line with young people’s media habits and to strengthen advice and support. Since its launch it has been visited by more than 35 million people, and millions have called the helpline to speak to specially trained advisers.

I hope that explanation has gone at least some way to satisfying the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and that on that basis he will be content to withdraw his amendment.

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[Baroness Meacher]

My Lords, I support very strongly the idea behind the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and the importance of education. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that the type of education is absolutely all-important. He said that teenagers do not want someone coming in preaching about drugs. Absolutely—we know from all the research, most of which has been carried out in the US, that lecturing and didactic teaching does not work in the sphere of drugs. We know that. I was going to suggest that we need the words “evidence-based” in the amendment. We know from the evidence that peer involvement—certainly group work with youngsters who have already had or are now having terrible problems with drugs—is the method of education that works. Whether one wants to call it education or whatever, it ideally needs to go on in schools. It does not seem inappropriate therefore to use the word “education”. We all have to be clear what we mean by education but, as for the term “evidence-based”, the evidence points exactly in that direction.

Before you get to that sort of education and imparting —or whatever you call it—of information, there is work already being done in a number of schools up and down the country to improve the resilience of youngsters who are particularly vulnerable to drug addiction. An example is children who are not functioning well at school or have very difficult home lives. There are all sorts of reasons why those children lack resilience. There are very good programmes of resilience-building in schools and for me they are utterly central to the whole business of prevention of drug addiction. This sort of work is far more important even than all the stuff we were talking about earlier about legislation, passionate though I feel about having the right framework in which all these things occur. I would support at least some variant of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, because it is fundamentally important, but let us see if we can come up with something really good for Report. Even better, the Minister could take this away and bring back a well-framed amendment to cover this vital issue.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, I have added my name to the amendment because I think the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is spot on in terms of the principle of the amendment, which is about education, because it completely shifts the focus. This Bill is essentially reactive. It is getting at what it wants to ban. The great thing about the amendment is that it is proactive. It explains to people why they should not take drugs in the first place. The route is education because we want to ensure that people are aware of the risks so they do not wish to take them in the first place. Otherwise, what we are doing is downstream once they have started taking the substances.

How then do you deliver the education? I take the point that my noble friend Lord Blencathra made about those who should be informing others, because young people listen to other young people and those who have had the experiences. It is absolutely right. They would be the most appropriate people. If somehow one could link a reduction in drug use to school league tables I can assure you that head teachers would be bringing in those appropriate people like a shot to affect outcomes. However, the crucial point here is that what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is getting at with this amendment is worth while in its own right and would be worth pursuing anyway even if the rest of the Bill were not there.

I think we are all agreed that it does not actually have to be precisely in the form in which the noble Lord has brought it forward but there is a general welcome for the principle involved. I regard it as extraordinarily important because if we can stop people wanting to take synthetic substances in the first place then a lot of what we are discussing becomes unnecessary. We really ought to be thinking in those terms and the noble Lord has done a fantastic service by bringing forward this amendment. I hope it will engage my noble friend’s attention to thinking how we educate people about this in the first place. It might be difficult. We might not achieve it, but it is inherently a desirable goal. It is, if you like, a public good.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

Can I make a short intervention to support Amendment 13 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport? I agree absolutely with the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that you need reformed addicts and the like to be effective in these circumstances. I have some experience working with the Wise Group in Glasgow, where Routes out of Prison takes reformed prisoners—people who have been on the inside—and meets prisoners coming out. There is no doubt that the vital connection between those who have been in that bad place and traded themselves out of it, and the totality of both phases, is very compelling and captivates young people of secondary school age in particular in a way that nothing else can, so education of that kind is essential in my view. However, there are not enough people with sufficient experience to do it. The voluntary sector is very good in some parts of the country but in others it is patchy. Further, if this is a good idea and there are workable ways of delivering it without men in suits being involved, we need a quantum of money to make it work sensibly. It is astonishing that the last Government fessed up to spending only £180,000 in this area. I think that figure applies only to England. I must check with my Scottish contacts to find out whether they spent a tenth of that, or whatever it was. That really is a de minimis amount of money. Indeed, I think that even £7 million is a de minimis amount of money.

The noble Lord, Lord Norton, is absolutely right to say that this proposed new clause stands on its own but if the Government are really taking a blanket-ban approach—I agree with my noble friends on the Front Bench that that is not the appropriate way to go—I would be consoled if there was an important, big, well-funded and properly constructed education package that went with this approach, because I think it would have an impact. However, you cannot do it for £180,000 a year. As we all know and expect, the impact assessment talks about effects on business, and all these things are important. However, if we are going to make this a reality and make it work, we need to be thinking over the period of the rest of the Parliament of seriously increasing the resources devoted to the measures proposed in this amendment.

My final point concerns the troubled families programme—it is a horrible name—about which I know a little and which was mentioned in passing by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport. It is also another way into this issue because a lot of the trouble in troubled families comes from youngsters who are out of control. These families contain a lot of single mothers in difficult circumstances and low-income households. These people struggle to access help. They will be the first to identify the problem with their teenage children and will be the first to seek help. Therefore, I think the troubled families programme would be another avenue through which to release resources effectively to confront some of these dangerous substances. If we are thinking about introducing a provision something like what is proposed in the new clause in Amendment 13 at later stages of the Bill, we need to think seriously about how to resource it adequately without being stupid about it. I am not daft; there is obviously an austerity constraint on everyone but we should all think about what constitutes a meaningful annual spend before the later stages of the Bill are completed.