Education: Nursery and Early Years

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Thursday 23rd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

The noble Baroness is quite right in her remarks. We all appreciate that helping children at an early age, particularly those who have a difficult home life, is absolutely essential. The payback on that for both those children and our society is massive. I certainly would be delighted to look at the research to which she refers, and I would be happy to discuss it with her because I know that she has experience in relation to this.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, the early years sector is very diverse in relation to types of governance. We have the state-funded sector, private settings, and not-for-profit and voluntary settings. Can the Minister ensure that the money to employ qualified early years teachers is easily available to all kinds of settings?

[Lord Nash]

Yes, I think that that is the aim. As the noble Baroness says, there is a mixed range of providers and we must ensure that they all have access to the appropriate funding. As I have said, the quality of provision speaks for itself.

Immigration Skills Charge Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Tuesday 21st March 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Nash]

I will certainly cover that.

[Baroness Walmsley]

Before the Minister concludes his remarks, I will make one point. Of course I agree with what he said about the need for employers to make a contribution to the training of the workforce from whom they will eventually benefit. However, is he aware of the very high level of commitment to training that all health and care employers already make? It takes them a lot of time and costs them a lot of money. Every ward has training nurses on it; every clinical team has trainee doctors on it; most GP practices have GP trainees; most care homes also have trainee co-workers. An enormous contribution is made already. The noble Lord, Lord Watson, talked about double charging—that is what we have here.

[Lord Nash]

I have listened to what the noble Baroness and the noble Lord have said but I cannot add any more at this stage. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Secondary Schools: Counselling Services

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I am delighted to join the right reverend Prelate in celebrating the value of this important work. I pay particular tribute to the Pilgrim PRU, which provides specialist support to build resilience and self-confidence, enabling children to reintegrate into mainstream or other settings. In her speech last month on mental health, the Prime Minister talked about ending the burning injustice of mental health problems. Children with more serious mental health problems deserve the same opportunities as everyone else. Ensuring that they get high-quality education is vital to their success in later life.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

Will the Department for Education work with the Department of Health to carry out a joint cost-benefit analysis of having counsellors in schools compared to the cost of mental health services for children later in life?

[Lord Nash]

I do not think there is any disagreement: as was just mentioned, we believe that the earlier children receive this kind of support, the better. The cost-benefit analysis is clear: all schools should provide counselling where it is needed.

Schools: Access to Defibrillators

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I accept that entirely.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, given the recent cuts in school funding, how does the Minister expect schools to be able to afford defibrillators, unless of course they have a special grant to purchase one from the department, which they most certainly should?

Childcare: Early Years Funding

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Monday 5th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I entirely agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of ensuring high quality. Our entire focus is on that, particularly for children with SEND. An additional needs element is factored into the early years funding formula to better target funding towards local authorities with a higher relative proportion of children with additional needs, and our final funding policy confirmed last week includes a new disability access fund worth £615 per child per year to support disabled three and four year-olds, and a requirement for all local authorities to have inclusion funds to channel additional support to children with SEND.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, given that supplying appropriate childcare for children with additional needs is more expensive for the setting itself, and it is also more expensive to train people to be able to recognise children’s special needs and deliver appropriate care, what are the Government doing to make sure that sufficient early years practitioners are being trained to work with these particularly needy children whose needs have been ignored from many, many years?

[Lord Nash]

We are focused on that. As the noble Baroness will know, we have a massive investment in this area, and on improving the quality of people coming into the profession. In terms of specific details on this, I will write to her.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I heard what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said, and I will take that back and discuss it further, along with the point he made about the case to which he referred. I am happy to continue discussions with noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I know that they have already had productive conversations in the past week with the Minister for Vulnerable Children and Families, although not as productive as they would have liked. I would expect those to continue. The DfE will look at all options open to us, but I regret that I cannot commit to a timetable, nor can I commit to returning to the issue before Third Reading. However, noble Lords should be reassured of our very firm intention to take further action. In view of this, I hope they will feel reassured enough to withdraw their amendments.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. I thank my noble friend Lord Lester, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who, I am delighted to say, mentioned UNICEF’s very effective Rights Respecting Schools programme. I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, agrees with me that if we had had the duty we are proposing in these amendments, perhaps fewer cases would have come to the Supreme Court for him to make a decision on.

We do not have full incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child into UK law. This amendment falls far short of full incorporation. It is limited to functions relating to safeguarding and the welfare of children, and they would be enormously helpful as a first—not a last—consideration when setting policy in the specific areas that are in the scope of the Bill.

Nobody is suggesting that the duty to have due regard is a silver bullet. As the Minister said, we of course have to improve what practitioners do on the ground and the culture within which they work. I called in aid what has happened about the PSED: it has certainly had that effect in the area of equalities. The Government seem to be determined to consider everything else first, rather than put into UK law the rights that children have as a result of the fact that we are signatories to the convention. I do not quite understand it.

We have heard from the Minister this evening and the Minister in another place yesterday that consultations will take place across Whitehall. I asked Mr Timpson how long that would take and whether it could take place in the two weeks between now and Third Reading. He said that would be rather ambitious because of the time it normally takes to have those consultations. I would like to be sure that those consultations will start straight away, following this evening’s debate so that, by the time we get to Third Reading, we could be convinced that the Government are determined to ensure that children’s rights are at the heart of policy-making. I am afraid we have not had that assurance this evening, so we are going to have to come back to this. The Minister has told us that talks can continue, and I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and I will be very happy to continue them.

In the meantime, as has been said, the Government are missing an opportunity to send out the right message to the rest of the world, and particularly the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, by accepting one or other of these amendments. I have not convinced the Minister so far, but I can assure him this is not the end of it.

[Lord Nash]

It might help the noble Baroness to know that I have been informed that we are starting talks with the devolved Administrations this week, so that part of the consultation has started.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I thank the Minister. I am aware that that is happening and it is very good. However, that is not the same thing as consulting all departments across Whitehall on how they could implement the “have regard” duty. That is what we would like to see starting.

[Lord Nash]

I will take that back and see if we can do it.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I thank the Minister and look forward to hearing what ball has started rolling between now and Third Reading. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, my name is also on this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, has explained the reasons for it extremely cogently. The Government are trying to make a change at a time of considerable turbulence among social workers, both those who work with children and those who work with adults. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just said, further change is coming down the track.

I hope that the Government will accept the principle of review, learn and, if necessary, act after five years, by which time the changes in regulation that they are proposing will have had time to embed and we will have had the chance to see whether they have achieved the improvements that the Government are looking for. I can understand the Government’s wish to go about it in the way that they are doing given their requirement for considerable improvement in social work but, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, clearly pointed out there is a good case for standing back after a reasonable period and looking at it again to see whether it has worked as everybody hopes it will.

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I am grateful for noble Lords tabling Amendment 117 and welcome the intention behind it. We are committed to ensuring that these provisions and the work of Social Work England are independently reviewed. It is crucial that we ensure that the provisions bring about the reforms that are needed and that they remain fit for purpose.

I am sure that noble Lords agree that we must avoid any potential for the social work profession not to be regulated, but we should not risk the regulatory oversight of the profession being in any way uncertain. I can reassure noble Lords that this Government are making substantial investment in social work reform and will not leave the success of the body to chance. I can commit to go further than promising to reflect on the matter and meet the noble Lords who have raised this issue.

To ensure that Social Work England remains fit for purpose and carries out its functions effectively—and at the risk of being accused of trying to end this stage of consideration of the Bill on a high—I want to signal now my intention to table an amendment at Third Reading that commits on the face of the Bill to the carrying out of a formal independent review of the regulator five years from the point that Social Work England becomes fully operational. We will require the review to be laid before Parliament.

I anticipate that the review will consider the operation of the regulator with particular regard to its governance and oversight arrangements. I will also require those undertaking the review to consult representatives of the social work profession and other interested parties. I also reassure noble Lords that, following the review and discussions with Members of Parliament and Peers, the Secretary of State for Education and the Secretary of State for Health will be required to publish a response setting out the actions that will be taken.

I wholly agree with noble Lords that appropriate measures need to be in place to ensure that these provisions are independently reviewed. As I set out earlier, the Professional Standards Authority will undertake an independent review annually on how Social Work England discharges its functions. The amendment that I will propose will strengthen these measures further.

I hope that the commitments that I have set out tonight—that an annual report will be published by the Professional Standards Authority, and the tabling of an amendment that would see a full independent review after the first five years of Social Work England’s operation published and accompanied by a statement from both Secretaries of State setting out clearly their response—will reassure noble Lords of the Government’s commitment to getting this right not just now, but in the future. I am happy to meet noble Lords to discuss the details further, but in view of these commitments I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw the amendment.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 18th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I think we can do that. I am happy to discuss this further with the noble Lord but, as I understand it, we are proposing to list them as conditions and draw practitioners’ attention to them. As I was saying, I am reluctant to do anything further on this in relation to mental health until the expert group has met, but I invite the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, to meet that group.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but I would like him to clarify what he was saying to my noble friend Lady Tyler. He mentioned that if the expert group says that the gist of what she is recommending should be in place, the Government will be prepared to legislate. Legislative opportunities being so few and far between, can he assure the House that a suitable vehicle, in the form of a Bill, will be available in this Parliament to achieve that, should the expert group make that recommendation?

[Lord Nash]

I am not authorised to make that assurance or to predict future legislation standing here. However, we have appointed these experts, we know what their direction of travel is and we will listen very carefully to all their recommendations, including on future legislation. Obviously, when I say “future”, I mean that if they make recommendations, we would like to get on and legislate, where appropriate, as soon as possible. However, it would be helpful if the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, had further conversation with the co-chairs.

Lastly, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for his comments about Clause 29. Of course, we are not due to consider amendments to that clause today. The Government have tabled several amendments to address points made in Committee, and I encourage noble Lords to give them proper consideration before we have a full discussion of that clause in some weeks’ time. I am happy to have further discussions on this with noble Lords in the interim; it would be very helpful to discuss this clause in more detail. I also thank my noble friend Lord Faulks for clarifying the point raised earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Lester. I hope and trust that what I have said—particularly on the amendment on the corporate parenting principle—will reassure the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and persuade them not to move their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, in Committee we promised the noble Lord, Lord Watson, that we would consider his amendment in Grand Committee to ensure that the current drafting of Clause 4 fully captures those with parental responsibility where the child has left care under special guardianship or child arrangements orders. Following further consideration, the Government have decided an amendment is necessary to Clause 4, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Watson, for bringing this to our attention—I am rather disappointed that he is not here to hear me say that, but I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will pass on my thanks.

The amendment will make it clear to local authorities in England that they must make advice and information available to any person who has parental responsibility for a previously looked-after child for the purpose of discharging their duty to promote their educational achievement. Unlike adoption, where only the adoptive parents have parental responsibility, parental responsibility in respect of children named in special guardianship and child arrangements orders may be shared with the child’s birth parent or parents. This amendment is therefore important to ensure that all those with parental responsibility are not excluded.

I would like also to speak to government Amendments 21, 24 and 27, which are technical amendments to Clauses 4 to 6 that will ensure that children who were previously looked after and adopted under the Adoption Act 1976 are also within the scope of the new duty on local authorities and schools to promote their educational achievement. These “older” children will be in secondary education, and they too should have access to the virtual school head and the designated teacher. I hope that noble Lords will accept these government amendments.

Before hearing what noble Lords have to say on other amendments, perhaps it would be helpful to noble Lords, and particularly to the noble Baroness, Lady King, if I say that the Government will table an amendment to the Bill in the other place to bring children adopted from care outside England within the scope of Clauses 4 to 6.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, it was my intention to speak to Amendments 22, 23, 25, 26 and 28 in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady King of Bow, and other noble Lords. However, I am delighted to hear what the Minister has just said. To explain to other noble Lords who may not be familiar with the effect of these amendments, I should say that they refer to the educational entitlements of children adopted from overseas to make them equal to those of children adopted from this country. I must declare an interest in this subject because I have a much-loved adopted Chinese granddaughter, although she would not benefit from these amendments since she and her family live abroad.

From a peak of 25,000 adoptions a year in the mid-1970s, the number of adoptions fell in England to only 3,000 in 2011. But the new focus on adoption of the previous Government and of the current Government has made a very big difference. The number of adoptions is going up again, and they are extremely resilient, as shown by a certain amount of research. Only 3% of them break down, which is less than those where children are put under special guardianship. In acknowledging the need for the numbers of adoptions to grow, the application has been made easier and shorter. However, before those reforms took place, many would-be adopters turned away by local authorities had to adopt internationally if they were to have a family, particularly if they wished to adopt an infant. A number of international adopters, including my son, would willingly have adopted in the UK but were turned away, sometimes because of their ethnicity.

There used to be a view that children adopted from abroad did not come from the care system in their country. That may have been the case some time ago but that has changed. Indeed, Martin Narey, who had previously claimed that that was so, has changed his mind in view of changes in all those countries. Most of the children come from care in the countries from which they are adopted. That means that they have exactly the same traumatic experiences that children adopted from care in this country have, and therefore they have exactly the same needs. Those children have already benefited from several elements of the adoption support fund, but until today they had not benefited from the educational advantages that were given to children adopted from this country. So I am delighted that the Minister has indicated in what he has just said that he has accepted that those children need the same advantages in education. We are talking about children who are all British nationals, all with a similar experience of neglect and abuse and all adopted from care. The only difference is that in some cases internationally adopted children might also have experienced deeply inadequate medical care and malnutrition in their country of birth, so actually they may be worse off than children adopted from care in this country.

The Minister suggested that amendments would be tabled when this Bill goes to another place, so I look forward to seeing that. That will remedy the fact that we have up to now condemned a very small number of British children who have suffered neglect and abuse to lives much less successful than they might have been. I hope that will now change. I thank the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady King of Bow, for suggesting these amendments.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Wednesday 13th July 2016 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley]

I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, particularly his first point about the fees from social workers. Those of us who speak to the health portfolio will know well that we have had concerns expressed to us, particularly by people who run small care homes, about the CQC fees being increased very considerably recently. The reason for that is the Government’s policy that regulators should be self-funding, which is an example of exactly the policy that the noble Lord has just queried. The question that he asked is: does this apply to the new regulator proposed by the Government for social work? If it does, then reassurances that fees will not rise are perhaps a little disingenuous.

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, perhaps I can respond first to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about fees and self-financing. I will look at that and respond in due course. Secondly, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, raised a point about offences, while his third point was about Clause 35 and what it is proposed to cover.

So far as offences are concerned, Clause 34 contains a power to create offences covering a number of specified areas. I have been clear throughout the passage of the Bill that any system of regulating professionals must focus on public protection. In order for this to be effective it is essential that the register is accurate, that it is based on current information and that people co-operate with regulatory processes. This clause contains powers to create offences that directly address these issues.

The indicative regulations make provision for three categories of offences that are, of course, subject to consultation. They include offences that relate to: registration and restrictions on practice and protected titles; the provision of evidence; and in connection with providing false or misleading information. These are all important safeguards for public safety that will benefit individuals, employers and the profession as a whole. The indicative regulations provide for offences in relation to matters including: using the title of social worker with intent to deceive when a person is not registered; falsely claiming to be registered with intent to deceive; making a false representation as to qualifications, education or training or anything included or not included in their entry in the register, with intent to deceive; failing to comply with requirements to provide documents or other information to the regulator, or to attend to give evidence when required to do so; or fraudulently procuring or attempting to fraudulently procure the making, amendment, removal or restoration of an entry in the register by providing information or failing to provide information in breach of requirements under the regulations.

The purpose of creating offences under these powers is not to prosecute large numbers of people. I think that is clear from the offences, which set a fairly high bar. Rather, it is to provide for an effective deterrent that helps ensure people co-operate with the regulator and with the processes of regulation.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to Clause 35, which provides that the regulations may be used to confer functions on either the regulator or a Minister of the Crown. They could also provide for those responsible to delegate the exercise of functions and decision-making to others, where this is appropriate. The regulations may be used to confer powers to make, confirm or approve subordinate legislation. The intention is that rules will provide for the detail about how the regulator will discharge relevant functions. The indicative regulations provide an illustration of this approach by setting out, for example, that rules will be made regarding the procedural and administrative arrangements for registration and for the operation of the accreditation scheme. I remind the Committee that there are similar powers under the current regime. That is all I propose to say at this stage and I therefore move that these clauses stand part of the Bill.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, just before the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, replies, the Minister mentioned on several occasions the 1989 Act, which has a very strong and clear set of principles and duties in it. The Minister has heard from many noble Lords that we feel that the way in which Clause 1 is worded is nowhere near as strong. Does the Minister agree that it is not as strong as in the 1989 Act? Which set of duties has supremacy? To have the duty on Clause 1 worded in a much weaker way than in the 1989 Act can benefit only lawyers; it introduces confusion.

[Lord Nash]

With respect to the lawyers present—including myself from many years ago—I will not comment on the last point. We are trying to set out principles and not put local authorities under any more duties than necessary or into any kind of straitjacket. But the noble Baroness makes a point about a number of duties and we will go back and look at this in more detail.

Children: Drugs

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Monday 11th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

Drug education is a statutory part of the new curriculum for science at key stages 2 and 3. Teachers are best placed to understand the needs of their pupils and it is for them to develop their own PSHE programmes, drawing on resources and evidence-based tools such as ADEPIS, which provides accurate, up-to-date information and resource on what works. In March last year, we published a PSHE review of what works best in drug education and the PSHE Association has an excellent programme of study on drugs.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, does the PSHE curriculum include comparisons of the health harms of drugs such as alcohol, tobacco, heroin, cocaine and cannabis, including the numbers of people who die every year from their use? If the Minister does not have the figures to hand, I would be grateful if he wrote to me.

[Lord Nash]

My understanding is that this programme of study is very comprehensive, but I will write specifically to the noble Baroness on this.

Schools: Food Nutrition Standards

Debate between Lord Nash and Baroness Walmsley

Thursday 11th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

The guidance is now provided by Public Health England.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

The Government are undermining free school meals for up to key stage 1, which was a Liberal Democrat achievement in the coalition Government, by starving the programme of cash. Why are the Government going to remove the grants to small primary schools that enable them to deliver these hot meals to children? How will that help nutrition for those children for whom this is the only decent, nutritional meal they get in the whole day?

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right that we have paid an extra £33 million to small schools to enable them to engage in this programme. It was always intended as transitional funding to help schools put their service on a sustainable footing and we believe that that has been done.