Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Lord Judd

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I am very glad to support this amendment. It seems that what we are dealing with here in this whole clause, as we argued in Committee, is not only the policy inherent in the clause now but the threat that it offers for the future. Since the Second World War, Governments of all persuasions have consistently adhered to the principle that there is something so special in this asset of these unique areas of countryside in our country—which are enjoyed by our people and have this incalculable value as a place for physical and spiritual regeneration—that there must be absolutely no doubt whatever that the protection of what they are about and of their scenic uniqueness takes precedence over everything. The trouble is that, once the door is pushed open and left, after discussion and argument, just a little ajar, there is this danger of still further erosion.

I support my noble friend on the Front Bench, who has paid a warm tribute to the Minister. She has been outstanding in her commitment and courtesy to the House and to the Committee. I have always thought that she was a decent, civilised person, and the way in which she has responded to the criticisms that have been made have left me in absolutely no doubt about that whatever. I would like her to accept that we are trying to uphold her in those values which she so obviously embraces. I was having a private word with her at one point and unfortunately—although I understand it—by the time that legislation is on the Order Paper and being debated there has been an awful lot of intellectual and policy input and people are very committed to the position which they have put forward and on which they have worked in a dedicated way to try to get the draft as true as possible. Sometimes there comes a moment when the logical thing to do is to stop trying to perfect something that is not really right and just to say, “That one was interesting but it is not going to be in the Bill in the future”. However, it is a very difficult thing for all those who have been involved to accept that sort of provision. I hardly dare say, and I do not mean this in any aggressive or patronising way whatever, but in all of us—not least myself sometimes—face is a very important issue, and sometimes it becomes so in the legislative process.

The logical thing for this House to do is to adopt the amendments that have been put so clearly by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. I hope that the House will endorse her position.

[Lord Marlesford]

I will just say a word in support of my noble friend’s amendment, which I have put my name to. First, I join in what has been said about my noble friend the Minister. In the years that I have been here, one has often had Ministers who, one feels, are mere parrots for the civil servants. That is not the case with my noble friend. She has taken a real interest and is really concerned to get the right answer. What is the right answer? I think there are three points.

First, as has been said, the protection and cherishing of these very special landscapes, particularly the national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beauty, is crucial for our very small island. The way in which we have retained them since 1949 is amazing. It must be remembered that we were 50 years after the Americans in inventing national parks, but a wonderful job has been done with them. We therefore have to make absolutely sure that we do not legislate for a short-term apparent problem. Nobody denies that the whole broadband thing is important, and we are united on the need for it, but we should not legislate on a short-term basis for that with any risk of undermining the very long-term principle of preserving these landscapes for generations to come. That is my first point, and I know that my noble friend is attempting to meet that in the amendment that she has put forward.

The second point is what could actually happen to the landscape as a result of what is going to happen in the way of installation of broadband. I had the advantage of going to a meeting with British Telecom—which my noble friend the Minister chaired, sponsored and arranged—and I found it, in a sense, quite helpful. There were one or two things that particularly struck me. First, although we questioned BT very closely, it was not able to produce a single example from the past or the predictable future of why this clause is needed. It is all very theoretical. The second point is that they showed us the various bits of hardware which are involved in broadband—one, of course, is the cabinets, which do the switching. They are quite big, about twice the size of filing cabinet, and they have to be scattered around; it is a little unclear how close they have to be to the service that they are trying to provide. They take the fibre optic cable and then transfer it to the copper cable, which is what most of the broadband ends up reaching the final premises in, unless it is a new premises in which case, they put the fibre optic straight in. The cabinets are quite big and could be very intrusive. It ought, in my view, to be quite easy to conceal them, and make sure that they are carefully sited.

The thing that worries me much more is the wires—the fibre optic cables that carry the signal. Wires that are strewn across open countryside can be very intrusive and damaging to the landscape and one simply does not want them. In the past, much care has been taken to ensure that that does not happen. British Telecom told us that where there are underground wires already, it will use the ducts in which those wires go to put the new fibre optics in. Where the services are already over ground, it will probably put the fibre optic cable on the poles that already exist. That is probably acceptable.

However, there is another point. BT is not the only organisation that will be putting in broadband in these rural areas. Another big company, the Japanese company Fujitsu, is keen to come in. We know that the ownership of existing methods of transferring wires is largely in the hands of BT. In theory it would be just as possible for the incoming company to take exactly the same care and trouble for its wires and cables as BT does. However, the fact is that this is something that belongs to BT and so it will have a commercial right to expect some money in exchange for using it.

The world of telecommunications—and the world as a whole—is highly competitive, and companies are trying to cut their costs to get the orders and the business. The point that I raised, which I hope that my noble friend may be able to comment on, is: to what extent—when we have finished with the Bill as it now looks with the amendments from my noble friend—will we be able to ensure that a third company, as it were, that comes in to install broadband in these sensitive areas is not able to cut a few cents of the cost by putting overhead lines where underground wires exist, or by putting up new poles where other people’s poles exist?

That is a really important consideration, which brings me to the third point about the importance of this debate. We know now, and have known for years, ever since various constitutional changes, that what is said in Parliament and can be read in Hansard is of value in the real world in years to come. Therefore, I am very anxious that, in expressing our concerns and wishes, we all spell out the problems and the Minister seeks to spell out the answers, so that when cases arise in which there are controversies and conflicts, at least Hansard will be able to be quoted and the intention and wish of Parliament can be interpreted.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Lord Judd

Wednesday 30th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I put my name to these amendments for very much the reasons put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Clause 8 is really not necessary. I declare an interest as president of the Suffolk Preservation Society. I have some experience in this area, because I did 12 years on the Countryside Commission, under the distinguished chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Barber of Tewkesbury, and was lucky enough to get to know the national parks very well during that time. In eight of those years, I was also on the Rural Development Commission under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Vinson. One saw then the importance and possibility of combining the conservation and protection of our finest countryside with economic development, which the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, so rightly pointed out.

I have always regarded the planning system and, with it, the creation of the national parks, as one of the two great venerable icons of the Attlee Government—the other, of course, being the National Health Service. Over the years, it has worked extremely well. I have seen at close quarters how it works. Of course, it is necessary to have new technologies, and indeed they are to be welcomed. Indeed, the broadband technologies, which make new forms of economic enterprise possible in remote areas is one of the least intrusive.

There has been a lot of talk about undergrounding, and I have a bit of experience of that, too. I am very keen on undergrounding. For some years, I was a non-executive director of the Eastern Electricity Board, both before it was privatised and for a while afterwards, when it was taken over by Hanson. I persuaded my co-directors to start a scheme for undergrounding wires in designated areas, which worked extremely well. It is not wildly expensive. Of course, the 440 kilovolt pylons are hugely expensive to underground, but the network of wirescaping, which can so badly damage a landscape, is remarkably inexpensive to underground. We did it in some 30 designated conservation areas on the heritage coast. The first one was in my own village, and I was attacked by Paul Foot in Private Eye, on the grounds that I lived in the village, because I had banged on about it for about five years before they did it. But it is a perfectly good scheme to do things such as undergrounding. All this can be done very well under the existing arrangements. Broadband can and will come, and it is crucial that it should do so. However, absolutely no reason that I have heard of or read about justifies the necessity for introducing Clause 8 to give special treatment to broadband.

I do not believe that we should for one instant consider damaging the unique quality and status of these most precious landscapes by weakening control over them. I believe it is unlikely that this Government would seek to do so, but if they were to do so, it is most unlikely that your Lordships’ House would agree to it.

[Lord Judd]

The noble Lord referred to world heritage. I am sure he will be aware that the Lake District, where I live, is seeking world heritage site status. This will have immense significance for the British economy and for attracting visitors and tourists. Will this process be helped or hindered by these unnecessary provisions in the Bill?

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Marlesford and Lord Judd

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

In case the House were to think that my noble friend was in a minority of one, I rise to support his amendment strongly. Frankly, the essence of the planning system is that planning decisions should be made on planning grounds. To attempt to distort those decisions is thoroughly undesirable and totally contrary to the whole basis of what was set up by the party of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, when it was in power in 1948. It was one of the great achievements of the Labour Government—the other being the health service. England would not be the country it is if it had not had that planning system.

My noble friend is talking particularly about wind farms, which is quite relevant because of the element of subsidy. However, very undesirable pressures have been put on planning authorities, for example, by supermarkets, which have proposed to build in quite inappropriate places and have threatened expensive public inquiries and local authorities with damages if they presume not to grant the application. My noble friend Lord Reay is absolutely on to the right idea. I strongly advise the Government to think very carefully before they distort the planning system in this sort of way.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I must intervene. I had not intended to do so because much the same ground will come up under some subsequent amendments to which I have put my name. However, I point out to my noble friend Lord Whitty, for whom I have great respect and who I regard as a particularly good personal friend, that there is an issue which comes up under a number of amendments.

What the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has said is very telling. I am very proud of what the post-war Labour Government contributed to civilised values in this country through their planning arrangements and commitment to the countryside. I regard that as one of the most precious assets in the history of our party and do not want to see it lightly cast aside. What worries me about the implications of this part of the Bill, to which the noble Lord, Lord Reay, has moved his amendment, and, indeed of subsequent parts, is that all the implicit accumulated evidence, which is becoming increasingly explicit, shows that instead of a prejudice in planning in favour of our rich inheritance of countryside, scenery and the rest, the balance is changing to making economic considerations the priority. We need to get that balance right but I do not want to see the mistakes of the first Industrial Revolution repeated. Our countryside was raped in the first Industrial Revolution, but it could all have been done in a much more civilised way. Do we never learn? The noble Lord, Lord Reay, is absolutely right to be vigilant on this issue.