Lord Judd
Main Page: Lord Judd (Labour - Life peer)Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Lord Judd Excerpts
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, Clause 8 as it stood would have set an extremely damaging precedent, removing key protections from our most cherished landscapes. My Amendment 36 sought to address that issue, enabling changes in secondary legislation to speed up the delivery of broadband in rural areas but not removing key protections against changing the long-standing duties in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty.
As I made clear in Committee, I can see the argument for adding a further consideration to the Communications Act 2003 for the Secretary of State to have regard to promoting economic growth at the same time as other existing duties, which is what Clause 8(1) proposes. However, the disapplication of the duty to have regard to conserving beauty in other pieces of legislation would be a very disproportionate approach. Clearly the Government do not feel that my amendment gave quite the certainty that they thought they needed, while not undermining key protections for those landscapes. They have therefore drafted their own amendment, which in this group, and with the leave of the House I should like to make a few comments on it.
The Government’s Amendment 36A equates the “have regard” duty to proposed Section 109(2B) of the Communications Act 2003, so that the Secretary of State will be treated as automatically having complied with the “have regard” duties if they have complied with Section 109(2B). It means that the primary legislation in place since 1949 protecting our iconic landscapes remains unchanged. I am extremely grateful to the Government and in particular to the Minister, who has gone well beyond the bounds of the usual standards to listen to Members of this House and to meet with us and hear the seriously held concerns that we championed in Committee about the wider impacts of the clause as drafted. Their willingness to respond to our concerns sends a powerful signal that while the Government are committed to bringing broadband to the greatest number of people they are not intent on nibbling away at essential protection policies for our most valued landscapes. I beg to move.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I am very glad to support this amendment. It seems that what we are dealing with here in this whole clause, as we argued in Committee, is not only the policy inherent in the clause now but the threat that it offers for the future. Since the Second World War, Governments of all persuasions have consistently adhered to the principle that there is something so special in this asset of these unique areas of countryside in our country—which are enjoyed by our people and have this incalculable value as a place for physical and spiritual regeneration—that there must be absolutely no doubt whatever that the protection of what they are about and of their scenic uniqueness takes precedence over everything. The trouble is that, once the door is pushed open and left, after discussion and argument, just a little ajar, there is this danger of still further erosion.
I support my noble friend on the Front Bench, who has paid a warm tribute to the Minister. She has been outstanding in her commitment and courtesy to the House and to the Committee. I have always thought that she was a decent, civilised person, and the way in which she has responded to the criticisms that have been made have left me in absolutely no doubt about that whatever. I would like her to accept that we are trying to uphold her in those values which she so obviously embraces. I was having a private word with her at one point and unfortunately—although I understand it—by the time that legislation is on the Order Paper and being debated there has been an awful lot of intellectual and policy input and people are very committed to the position which they have put forward and on which they have worked in a dedicated way to try to get the draft as true as possible. Sometimes there comes a moment when the logical thing to do is to stop trying to perfect something that is not really right and just to say, “That one was interesting but it is not going to be in the Bill in the future”. However, it is a very difficult thing for all those who have been involved to accept that sort of provision. I hardly dare say, and I do not mean this in any aggressive or patronising way whatever, but in all of us—not least myself sometimes—face is a very important issue, and sometimes it becomes so in the legislative process.
The logical thing for this House to do is to adopt the amendments that have been put so clearly by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. I hope that the House will endorse her position.
Lord Marlesford
I will just say a word in support of my noble friend’s amendment, which I have put my name to. First, I join in what has been said about my noble friend the Minister. In the years that I have been here, one has often had Ministers who, one feels, are mere parrots for the civil servants. That is not the case with my noble friend. She has taken a real interest and is really concerned to get the right answer. What is the right answer? I think there are three points.
First, as has been said, the protection and cherishing of these very special landscapes, particularly the national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beauty, is crucial for our very small island. The way in which we have retained them since 1949 is amazing. It must be remembered that we were 50 years after the Americans in inventing national parks, but a wonderful job has been done with them. We therefore have to make absolutely sure that we do not legislate for a short-term apparent problem. Nobody denies that the whole broadband thing is important, and we are united on the need for it, but we should not legislate on a short-term basis for that with any risk of undermining the very long-term principle of preserving these landscapes for generations to come. That is my first point, and I know that my noble friend is attempting to meet that in the amendment that she has put forward.
The second point is what could actually happen to the landscape as a result of what is going to happen in the way of installation of broadband. I had the advantage of going to a meeting with British Telecom—which my noble friend the Minister chaired, sponsored and arranged—and I found it, in a sense, quite helpful. There were one or two things that particularly struck me. First, although we questioned BT very closely, it was not able to produce a single example from the past or the predictable future of why this clause is needed. It is all very theoretical. The second point is that they showed us the various bits of hardware which are involved in broadband—one, of course, is the cabinets, which do the switching. They are quite big, about twice the size of filing cabinet, and they have to be scattered around; it is a little unclear how close they have to be to the service that they are trying to provide. They take the fibre optic cable and then transfer it to the copper cable, which is what most of the broadband ends up reaching the final premises in, unless it is a new premises in which case, they put the fibre optic straight in. The cabinets are quite big and could be very intrusive. It ought, in my view, to be quite easy to conceal them, and make sure that they are carefully sited.
The thing that worries me much more is the wires—the fibre optic cables that carry the signal. Wires that are strewn across open countryside can be very intrusive and damaging to the landscape and one simply does not want them. In the past, much care has been taken to ensure that that does not happen. British Telecom told us that where there are underground wires already, it will use the ducts in which those wires go to put the new fibre optics in. Where the services are already over ground, it will probably put the fibre optic cable on the poles that already exist. That is probably acceptable.
However, there is another point. BT is not the only organisation that will be putting in broadband in these rural areas. Another big company, the Japanese company Fujitsu, is keen to come in. We know that the ownership of existing methods of transferring wires is largely in the hands of BT. In theory it would be just as possible for the incoming company to take exactly the same care and trouble for its wires and cables as BT does. However, the fact is that this is something that belongs to BT and so it will have a commercial right to expect some money in exchange for using it.
The world of telecommunications—and the world as a whole—is highly competitive, and companies are trying to cut their costs to get the orders and the business. The point that I raised, which I hope that my noble friend may be able to comment on, is: to what extent—when we have finished with the Bill as it now looks with the amendments from my noble friend—will we be able to ensure that a third company, as it were, that comes in to install broadband in these sensitive areas is not able to cut a few cents of the cost by putting overhead lines where underground wires exist, or by putting up new poles where other people’s poles exist?
That is a really important consideration, which brings me to the third point about the importance of this debate. We know now, and have known for years, ever since various constitutional changes, that what is said in Parliament and can be read in Hansard is of value in the real world in years to come. Therefore, I am very anxious that, in expressing our concerns and wishes, we all spell out the problems and the Minister seeks to spell out the answers, so that when cases arise in which there are controversies and conflicts, at least Hansard will be able to be quoted and the intention and wish of Parliament can be interpreted.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, we all support the deployment of broadband in rural areas, and the key for us is how best we deliver that. I still do not think that the Government have made a conclusive case for the need to change the existing planning regime in terms of proving that existing arrangements are a barrier to delivering broadband. Few cases have been cited outside the national parks, and as my noble friend Lord Marlesford and the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, said, the national parks authorities are not inflexible regulators, bystanders or obstacles to broadband rollout.
Equally, I am disappointed that the Government have not published the responses to the latest consultation on their planning proposals prior to Report. Hearing stakeholder views could have helped our deliberations, thus enabling legislation. However, I understand why the Government want to introduce these changes to the planning regime, so we should seek to ensure a strong code of practice that delivers the best outcomes in deploying broadband infrastructure in our most valued landscapes.
I think a statutory code of practice to ensure best practice in siting infrastructure would be best, but I hear the argument that for such a code to be as effective as possible, it needs to be owned by planning authorities and broadband operators. Therefore, I hope that, in responding, the Minister will be able to confirm four things. The first thing is that the code of practice will be clear on mechanisms for dispute resolution between planning authorities and broadband operators when there are disagreements over siting. Given that the proposed changes give operators the final say on siting, it is important to seek agreement to ensure we do not end up with cabinets pepperpotting across our most treasured landscapes, causing detrimental impact to the landscape’s qualities and thus to the tourism industry that underpins economies in rural communities in our most highly visited and iconic landscapes.
The second is that the code will require the sharing of infrastructure where feasible: a critical issue that is not mentioned in the scope and guiding principles that have been drawn up to date. In this, I include pole sharing, where existing poles are available, and introducing processes so that broadband operators can be made aware of the opportunities to piggyback on to the work of energy providers who are undergrounding lines in the area.
The third is that the process for reviewing the success of the code and the trigger mechanism for deciding to make the code statutory is made clear. The final thing is that the anticipated date for the finalisation of the code is stated. Once this code is finalised, adherence to it can be incorporated as a contract requirement into publicly funded broadband deployment projects. As such, it is a key tool to ensuring the best siting of broadband infrastructure, and we need it finalised as soon as possible. I beg to move.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I warmly endorse this amendment and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, for introducing it. Across the whole history of legislation, I am afraid there is far too much evidence that codes and the like, without statutory authority, become useless in time. We have to remember—and we all pay tribute to the present Minister—that once new legislation is there, we are not necessarily going to be dealing with people like the current Minister. We cannot be certain who we will be dealing with. The current Minister is determined, and I am sure she means every word she says, that these things will be used to ensure what we all treasure about the parks, and so on. However, when she is gone, who will there be? I suggest to her that there are people with whom she must deal at the moment in her own Government who do not see it quite as she does. They have quite different thoughts about what this wonderful land might be used for. It is therefore really important to give the codes statutory authority.
As a vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks and as a patron of the Friends of the Lake District, I might say that the people who are, with their quality and commitment, turning concern into practical reality in all that they do to further the parks and the rest are deeply disturbed at the dangers that are there. They are not questioning the current Minister’s good intent but asking, “Where are the guarantees that these things that are being said in good will will actually be there for all to observe in future?”. Is this going to be another of those occasions on which we satisfy our own public profile by saying, “Well, we have this code”, or do we really mean what the code says? If we really mean it, let us for goodness’ sake make certain that it has the authority of the law behind it. This amendment is very important indeed.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, I strongly support my noble friend Lady Parminter. I should say that in the past I was vice-chair of a national park committee and therefore hold very dearly the responsibilities of the wider public within the national parks for their effective preservation and conservation in the national interest. I would also emphasise that there are many SMEs in national parks that will benefit from the extension of these very important communication facilities. However, there is a real urgency to have real clarity in the new regime to make sure that there is proper co-ordination between those who are going to provide for these new facilities along with the existing undertakings.
From my previous experience of seeing how the statutory undertakings, before they were privatised, never really got to grips with the need for co-ordination, the point that my noble friend made just now—about making sure that those who provide the new facilities are also properly co-ordinated with those who have responsibility, for example, for improving energy supplies—is absolutely critical. Otherwise we would have the ridiculous situation of upheaval and then renewed upheaval as the new undertakings take over. The equal need for greater clarity, to which my noble friend just referred, is extremely important, because otherwise we will have a very confused situation.
There is such urgency for this that I hope my noble friend the Minister will be able to give us an undertaking that preparatory work is well in hand to ensure that all the issues to which my noble friend referred are already being carefully examined. I am sure that all the communities within the national parks, and those who have concerns about the future of the national parks outwith them, will be met in the next few weeks and not be left with many months of consultation and revision before we see a final result.
Lord Judd
My Lords, one might ask why I am moving the amendment in the light of the good exchanges we have been having in our deliberations so far. I go back to the basic issue: why is this clause in the Bill at all? If we have had to have this tremendous amount of discussion, this avalanche of reassurances from the Minister, meetings at which reassurances have been given and all the rest of it, why have the clause in the Bill?
That means that it is necessary to look at the motivation for the clause. I suggest that the motivation is not what we have been talking about. It is not about preserving the unique role and position of the parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. There is a feeling that this could become an obstacle to other priorities in government administration and that, therefore, we need to look again at this absolute commitment and qualify it, whatever reassurances are given.
Like my noble friend, I read with great interest the note on the meeting with the English National Park Authorities Association. Again, it was far from clear to me after reading that why the clause was being proposed unless it was for the reason that I have put to the House. I therefore suggest that, at this stage, we need to hear from the Minister why it is essential to have it in the Bill, with all the qualifications that have now been made. I am sure that, as a reasonable person, the Minister will agree with me that those qualifications are all based on her word. They are not reinforced by the legislation. They are her interpretation, her good will, her undertakings and her reassurances, with a bevy of officials around her to add dignity and, I am sure, a good deal of intellectual input to the occasion.
The clause and its purposes, and why it is there in opposition to the priority we have all had in the past, are the real issue. I seek from the Minister some kind of convincing argument as to why the clause is necessary. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I have not tried to get into the discussion on Report so far. I made my view clear in Committee that this clause was a good thing. I, too, warmly commend my noble friend on the Front Bench for the amount of care and trouble that she has taken. I particularly valued the meeting that she arranged with the representatives of BT. I found it extremely informative, both as to their attitude to all this and as to some of the technology, of which I confess I was not wholly aware. For instance, one does not need a continuous line to take superfast broadband across the country. If you have the right equipment in a cabinet, you can, I think, go up to a kilometre by wireless transmission. That may well be a way in which one can protect a particularly sensitive area from the need for lines.
The other thing that was made absolutely clear, and which we have heard all along from my noble friend, is that for overhead lines we are not talking about anything other than poles. This is not the kind of thing one has for mobile telephones; they are straightforward wooden poles with the wires on top. I recognise what has been said about the need to site these sensitively, because one is talking about sensitive areas.
I totally admire the sincerity of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, on this. He feels very strongly about it. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, read a bit of a passage from the conclusions of the meeting with the national parks and others, which was held under my noble friend’s chairmanship on 1 March. He quoted the first sentence of the paragraph headed:
“Working together on the deployment of superfast broadband”.
It states:
“Ed Vaizey emphasised that the clause is not about stigmatising National Parks and AONBs as obstacles”.
That is absolutely right. He then went on to the next paragraph, but it is worth reading the words that come between because I think that to some extent they answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, as to why we have the clause at all. It states that Mr Vaizey said:
“Government recognises the important work that they”—
the national parks—
“already do in encouraging broadband deployment. However, we need to find a way forward to encourage investment in broadband and provide the certainty we need that will ensure the public money being used to support Broadband is not tied up with bureaucracy”.
Lord Judd
I wonder whether the noble Lord, who is a good friend of many years’ standing, might just reconsider the impression he is giving that it is a question of the practical needs of the nation against bureaucracy. I do not believe that that is the situation at all. Of course there are practical needs of the nation, and in this sense I declare an interest, as I have done before in our deliberations: I live in a national park and I want good broadband—of course that is true. Having said that, what we have had in the past is the paramount consideration of the unique role of the past. Regarding what is taking up time—and I again come back to the point which my noble friend has so convincingly made ever since we started deliberation on this Bill—it is precious difficult to find any evidence that there has ever been unnecessary delay or a hold-up of the kind described. In fact, I would suggest that there is no evidence that this is out of kilter with what happens anywhere else.
It seems to me that we want to ensure that, notwithstanding this need to take seriously the issue of broadband for the sake of a strong economy, we do not push to one side this paramount concern that we have had in the past. I do not believe that it is impossible to reconcile the two, but I think that it has to be argued very hard, and on occasion it will need a lot of serious deliberation. I do not think that it is just a straightforward administrative point. From this standpoint, it is not just a bureaucratic delay but a battle of priorities.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I was happy to give way to the noble Lord and he has confirmed what I have always regarded as one of the most heartening aspects of this whole question: the universal desire to make sure that broadband reaches even the most remote rural areas so that they can participate in the modern economy. That is hugely important. It is absolutely right that it is a function of Parliament, and perhaps of this House in particular, to ensure that there are proper safeguards and controls and that AONBs are properly protected. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, talked about the unique value of these national parks. It is a question of finding a balance between those two.
I believe that this clause is right, and it would be a pity if the noble Lord were to press his amendment—I am not sure whether he will—and if it were carried. We have had a good discussion. The amount of care that my noble friend has taken and the number of meetings that she has convened and chaired herself have been extremely helpful in getting people to understand what is involved in this—and that certainly applies to me. I hope that we will resist the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, while at the same time recognising his passion for defending his beloved national parks.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I thank all those who have participated in the debate on the amendment, not least the Minister for her characteristically full and sensitive reply. In our deliberations today, she has drawn the attention of the House on more than one occasion to meetings with the English National Park Authorities Association and has sought to reassure the House that its concerns have been met. Of course, the ENPAA is firmly on record that it would like the clause removed. Therefore, the Minister has not met that particular concern. To her credit, she has not attempted to claim that.
This has been an important debate because, listening carefully to the Minister and to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, with his tremendous commitment to the economic success of the British economy and the contribution by an efficient energy sector to that success, it has become clear to me what I have always worried about. In this game, we can have all the reassurances and all the arrangements that we like as to what ideally should happen, but it must be firmly understood that going ahead with projects, in the end, prevails. That is where I get off the bus. I take second place to nobody in wanting a strong economy, not as an end in itself but in the interests and for the well-being of the British people. I am convinced that the parks, the areas of outstanding natural beauty and, indeed, much of our countryside make an unrivalled contribution to the well-being of the British people. I do not want to fudge this. There will be moments when the interests of that wider well-being—measured not just in cash terms, in financial terms, but in the richer enjoyment of life and the fulfilment of potential—will need to take precedence if we want a civilised society in which to live. That is the whole point. The Government do not share that view because they believe that in the end the financial considerations of the economy and the rest must at all costs take precedence. That is probably why I am on this side of the House and the noble Baroness is on that side of the House. That is an honest position. I do not take a totally materialist view of the well-being of the nation.
I have listened to the arguments put by the Minister and others. I have also, because I have been here a long time now, listened to the atmosphere conveyed by words—if you can listen to an atmosphere; I think that noble Lords will know what I mean—and at this stage I have to say that I see a lawyers’ paradise ahead and some very tough battles ahead for those who share my perception of what our civilisation and society should be. Just at this moment, we will have to make good with the assurances that the Minister has given. I genuinely hope—I am not being in any way sarcastic—that she will go to her grave, a long time hence, convinced that all she said is being fulfilled in the spirit and not just the detail. I hope that one day she will come to share my view of what is the well-being of the British people and what hard decisions may be necessary in that context. However, at this stage, I seek leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Controlling infrastructure: removal of redundant infrastructure
(1) This section applies to infrastructure on or under land—
(a) in a National Park or under the control of a National Park Authority or the Broads Authority or their successors in title; or(b) designated as an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.(2) It shall be the responsibility of the person, undertaking or authority who installed infrastructure to which this section applies to make arrangements for its removal in the event that it becomes redundant.”
Lord Judd
My Lords, I will be brief. We have been debating the importance of these new developments in the countryside in order that the economy will prosper. Technological development is sometimes faster than we believe or anticipate even now, and all sorts of changes can happen. It is entirely feasible that in quite a reasonably short period of time in historical terms, a lot of what we are talking about now will become obsolescent.
Who has the responsibility for putting the countryside back to how it was before we made special arrangements to breach our wider commitments? I hope that the Minister will have an opportunity to put forward how we can have watertight arrangements for ensuring that when projects of this kind are being costed by firms, the cost of removing the unsightly debris is part of their responsibility. One just thinks of the debris from the first industrial revolution, which despoiled vast areas of our countryside and indeed urban areas. Surely we have progressed. I would like to hear what the Minister has to say on this.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, that was a very straightforward question from the noble Lord, and an understandable one in light of what we have been talking about: the new infrastructure. Perhaps I can give him a couple of very straightforward answers, because that is probably what he is looking for.
There are already provisions covering electronic communications infrastructure under Part 24 in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order. Where equipment has been installed using Part 24 permitted development rights, which I think is what we have been talking about, and the equipment is no longer needed, communications providers are required to remove it and to restore the land to its former condition or a condition acceptable to the local planning authority. Of course, national parks are their own planning authority. Failure to comply with a Part 24 condition would be a breach of planning control, and local planning authorities could use their enforcement powers to have the matter put right.
Where the equipment has been installed on private land, the Electronic Communications Code also provides for landowners to serve notices on communications providers requesting its removal. Paragraph 22 of the code specifically addresses what the noble Lord means by “redundant” equipment:
“where the operator has a right conferred by or in accordance with this code for the statutory purposes to keep electronic communications apparatus installed on, under or over any land, he is not entitled to keep that apparatus so installed if, at a time when the apparatus is not, or is no longer, used for the purposes of the operator’s network, there is no reasonable likelihood that it will be so used”.
In layman’s terms, that means that they are meant to clear it up if they do not need it any more. If the operator refuses to remove the equipment and the equipment is not lawfully on the land, the landowner is entitled to enforce its removal.
In respect of electricity underground cables and buried gas lines, it is generally more efficient and less environmentally damaging to leave any redundant equipment in place, but I presume that one must make sure that the land is returned as it would have been. In respect of overhead power lines, landowners can serve a notice under Schedule 4 to the Electricity Act 1989 to remove the equipment on their land, and the Secretary of State will consider each case on its merits.
I hope that that sufficiently reassures the noble Lord that there are provisions to ensure that what he fears might happen cannot happen and that they can be enforced. I hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I thank the Minister for having said what she has said and getting it on the record. We shall need to monitor this extremely carefully. This could well be another of those cases where we just cheerfully hand on to future generations the costs of our immediate priorities. I am not so sure that that is always a very good idea or a very responsible way to behave. I wish that at every point we could bring home to those who are taking steps that inevitably detract from the qualitative value of the countryside that they have real financial responsibilities for putting right what they have put wrong. Perhaps at some stage, when it is clearer how things are developing, we will have to consider specific legislation in this regard. In the mean time, I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.