Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Marlesford]

306A: After Clause 146, insert the following new Clause—
“Parliament Square committee
(1) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State shall by regulations establish a committee with responsibility for managing the controlled area of Parliament Square.
(2) The committee’s members shall be representatives of—
(a) all of the bodies which own or have responsibility for the controlled area of Parliament Square, and(b) the metropolitan police force.(3) The committee shall co-ordinate the work of its members in order to ensure that the controlled area of Parliament Square is kept clear of litter, detritus or other debris.
(4) The Committee shall report annually to both Houses of Parliament.”

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, we now move to the Parliament Square elements of this Bill. In moving Amendment 306A and speaking to Amendment 306B, which are very much interlinked, I am trying to save the Government from themselves. We are all agreed on the need for something to be done about Parliament Square and I think we are agreed on what should be done. Parliament Square is an appropriate place to have protests but at the moment it is completely out of control as a result of the encampments. In recent weeks and months, the encampments have grown greatly. A few months ago there were only eight tents; now there are over 30. In fact, a lot of Parliament Square has been taken over not so much by protesters but by rough sleepers. Obviously something has to be done. I am not producing the final word on this but I am producing what I believe to be a much more sensible and workable solution than the one in the Government’s own Bill.

We are all agreed on the need to end encampments, but I am seeking to remove Clause 147 and to replace it, in Amendment 306B, with my own clause. First, we have to look at Clause 145, which I am not in any way interfering with. It sets out provisions making the encampments illegal and sets out very clearly and in great detail how the tents and sleeping equipment should be classified. It says,

“‘sleeping equipment’ means any sleeping bag, mattress or other similar item designed, or adapted, (solely or mainly) for the purpose of facilitating sleeping in a place”.

That is a perfectly sensible and very wide definition, and of course cardboard boxes could be added because people sometimes adapt them to sleep in. But in a moment we will come to what I do not like in the Bill and noble Lords will see why it is rather inappropriate, not as a definition, but because of Clause 147.

Clause 147 spells out the terms and conditions for the seizure by the police of all the items listed in Clause 145. One of the problems of Parliament Square is that it has always been the responsibility of lots of different bodies: the Greater London Authority, Westminster City Council, the Metropolitan Police, and to some extent the Highways Agency. We want one committee—I do not mind terribly how it is organised—with representatives from all the bodies so that together they can run the thing in a sensible manner. That is set out in Amendment 306A.

Amendment 306B has been tabled because I really do not think that Clause 147 is an appropriate way of doing this. The police are to be asked to seize all these things. Clause 147(4) authorises the police to,

“use reasonable force … in exercising a power of seizure”.

Normally the word “seizure” is used for drugs, weapons, documents relating to serious organised crime and so forth. Are the police really to be used to seize blankets? Is there not a better way? And then what are the police to do with the things they seize? It is all laid out in Clause 147, which I wish to replace. Clause 147(5) states:

“An item seized under this section must be returned to the person from whom it was seized … no later than the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the item was seized”.

Does that make sense? Clause 147(6) goes on to state:

“If it is not possible to return an item under subsection (5) because the name or address of the person from whom it was seized is not known … the item may be returned to any other person appearing to have rights in the property who has come forward to claim it, or … if there is no such person, the item may be disposed of or destroyed at any time after the end of the period of 90 days beginning with the day on which the item was seized”.

We are aware of a shortage of police. Are they really to be given the role of maintaining tents, sleeping bags, mattresses and cardboard boxes until the appropriate time and seeking, no doubt diligently, to find out who they originally belonged to and returning them to their rightful owners? I am all in favour of the laws and rights of property, but this is a rather expensive way of doing it. Is it surprising that Councillor Colin Barrow, the leader of Westminster City Council, wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours explaining why the proposals in the Bill simply will not work?

I fear that the Home Office is displaying a deep angst about this matter. I can see why that has been generated because when we had the democracy village on the green bit of Parliament Square, it took almost £1 million in legal fees to remove it. It was a tremendous performance. However, once the courts had ruled, it was eventually removed with remarkably little aggravation because in general people obey the law, provided that the law is in place.

We come now to my proposal, which is much simpler. The proposed committee will run Parliament Square, helping to decide what is appropriate in terms of demonstrations and all that, and of course we all start from the presumption that demonstrations are a good thing. The committee will have the power to authorise the removal of the items set out by the Government, but that will not be done by the police. Subsection (3) of my proposed clause simply states:

“The committee shall ensure that between midnight and 6am every night any items listed in subsection (2) are removed”.

I do not intend for this material to be removed by the police, but probably by Westminster City Council’s refuse removal people. That is a simple, unprovocative and unconfrontational method, and in general, people do not confront those who are kind enough to remove rubbish. Although I admit that it may be necessary in the first few days for the police to be present, I believe that it will quite quickly settle down given how quickly the democracy village came to an end. If people wish to bring their tents, they will have 18 hours out of 24 in which they can have them, but, on the whole, you have a tent because you want to sleep in it. If it is going to be removed at midnight and you then have six hours without it, the chances are that you will make your sleeping arrangements in a different manner.

My proposal is moderate and limited; it genuinely seeks to help the Government to achieve what we all want and what they have tried to achieve not quite so elegantly in their Bill. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I have noted what the noble Lord has said.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I never pretended that this was the last word. I am disappointed that the Government feel that their Bill is the last word. I am delighted to hear that the Minister will discuss these matters in more detail with Westminster City Council. I find it a little strange that the letter from which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, quoted was written as recently as 21 June. After all, the Government have had this Bill in gestation for many months. If I had been on Westminster City Council, I, too, would have been a little miffed if I appeared to have been ignored.

To answer the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, and others, the committee will certainly be all-embracing. Whoever should be on it will be on it. It will not have to sit all the time; it will have a, presumably very small, permanent staff—perhaps someone seconded from the Met, someone from Westminster City Council and someone from here who will keep a watching brief for us. I was surprised when the Minister said that she did not know whether the committee would report to her. My amendment says:

“The Committee shall report annually to both Houses of Parliament”.

I do not say that that is necessarily the right idea, but for her to say that I have made no provision for reporting is simply not true. It is in the amendment. My worry is that the Home Office just does not like ideas from outside. It does not even read them; it just rejects them, which is disappointing. Given the Minister’s answer, and to encourage the Government to think a little more, I should like to test the opinion of the House.

Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL]

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Friday 1st July 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Marlesford]

That the Bill be read a second time.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. In the 20 years that I have been deeply privileged to be a Member of your Lordships' House, this is the first occasion on which I have put before your Lordships a Private Member’s Bill. It is a short and simple Bill. Its basic premise is that public protest and demonstration is a crucial element in democracy and that it should therefore be facilitated. Furthermore, as Parliament is the guardian of the people, their interests and their rights, it is often to Parliament that protesters should first speak. The people expect to be heard and seen by Parliament.

That is not always as it is in all democracies. Let us compare it with France, another democracy and a neighbouring country. There the people do not have the same faith in their parliament as protector of their rights. That is why protests in France so often rapidly become violent, with the mob taking to the streets. Because of the lack of faith in the French parliament, the people often support the mob as their surrogates. All too often in that country, the Government are faced with the choice of either giving in to a protest or sending in the CRS to break it up. That is not the British way, and it is why it is so important for people to have a recognised and convenient way to appeal to Parliament. There are several ways of doing this, including direct lobbying of the House or protesting.

I hope that we can all agree that Parliament Square is an ideal spot for protests and demonstration. However, it must be available to protesters. Its space must not be hogged by long-stay occupants who camp there, sometimes for months or even years. I think that we can all agree that the present situation is completely unsatisfactory and more or less out of control. I have over recent months—years, indeed—asked a number of Written Questions about Parliament Square. When the previous Government were in power, I asked for details of how many tenants there were and on what basis they had been authorised. I got a very full Written Answer. Last month, I asked the same Question again, because we all know that the situation has changed greatly. I was interested to receive from the Minister the Home Office's answer—I do not blame her for it—which stated:

“The Home Office does not hold this information. Section 134 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 sets out the criteria the Metropolitan Police would use for authorisation”.—[Official Report, 29/6/11; col. WA 445.]

When I last counted the number of tents, there were 28. The previous Written Answer referred to eight. This suggests a certain lack of grip. That is why the Government have brought forward their own proposals in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill.

My very short Bill seeks in the simplest and least confrontational way to free up Parliament Square for protests, so that they can be vibrant, relevant, current and can have the maximum impact. Because there has been so much controversy about who is responsible for Parliament Square, the first clause sets up a committee; that will make it clear who is responsible. All those who are responsible at the moment, including Westminster City Council and representatives of the Metropolitan Police, would be part of that committee. The committee would be responsible for co-ordinating the work of its members to ensure that the controlled area is kept free of litter, detritus or other debris.

Clause 2 seeks to facilitate demonstrations: that is its primary purpose. It also provides for certain items to be removed from the square. I have listed most of the items that the Government put in their Bill, such as tents, other structures designed or adapted for sleeping or staying in a place, litter, detritus or any other debris. But how does one achieve the action that will be required? One wants an arrangement that is as liberal and free as possible, but is effective. My solution is very simple and, perhaps I might presume to say, elegant. It merely requires the committee, every night between midnight and 6 am, to clean up the square. That is a simple thing to do that would not impede protest. People would have 18 hours out of 24 to do any protesting that they wished. I hope that it is a better solution than the elaborate proposals included in the controversial Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. Therefore, I ask the House to give this Bill a Second Reading.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords on every side of the House for the contributions that they have made to the debate. Virtually all the points made were sound. In as far as it may be necessary in my Bill to take account of them, I shall be very receptive to amendments that noble Lords wish to put down—or suggest that I should put down. I say that straight away. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, read a devastating statement from Westminster City Council, which is totally involved in this matter. I am surprised that the Government were not much more aware of that situation. Frankly, the idea of being able to go ahead in the face of such opposition is absurd. I know that everybody wants to have lunch and go home so I will not go into detail on what noble Lords said—except to be grateful and thank them—but I must deal a little with the Minister.

The problem is that one of these days the Home Office has to recognise that other people can have ideas which may be even better than its own. My noble friend was right when she said that camping is at the heart of the issue—and that is exactly what my Bill is about. The Government’s approach—not the Government’s; it is the Home Office’s approach—is seizure. The whole of Clause 147 of the Police and Social Responsibility Bill is about powers of seizure. My Bill is not about seizure. Seizure is confrontational.

[Baroness Browning]

Just for the record, there is no differentiation between me as a Home Office Minister and the Home Office. As a Minister, I have always taken full responsibility for any department I have had the pleasure to work in. The buck definitely stops with me. I assure my noble friend that this is not just about the Home Office. The matter is sitting on my desk.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I accept that. It is axiomatic of our system of government. However, my point is that the solution put forward by my noble friend—let us forget the Home Office for the moment—is about seizure. The Minister asks why my Bill, if it were enacted, would prevent people camping, as they would be able to put up camps in the daytime. On the whole, people put up tents to sleep in them at night. If the tents had to be packed up every night, people would soon stop bringing them. It might take a matter of days or, at most, a few weeks. On enforcement, if a Westminster City Council van went around on the first night, there might have to be a certain police presence to encourage people either to walk away with the tent under their arm or to allow it to be put in the dustbin. However, that would be a very simple matter.

All I say is that my proposals are much simpler, less confrontational and more likely to work. I hope my noble friend will, when we debate the provisions in her Bill on Report, be much more sympathetic than she is being at the moment. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, that I believe in facilitating; Clause 2(1) of my Bill includes the phrase “facilitate lawful, authorised demonstration”. It is the job of the committee to encourage and allow what we need by way of democratic facilities. However, I am afraid that I am left with the strong conviction that my solution is a great deal better than that of the Government. Therefore, I ask the House to give my Bill a Second Reading.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Marlesford]

244ZCCA: Clause 144, leave out Clause 144 and insert—
“Parliament Square committee
(1) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State shall by regulations establish a committee with responsibility for managing the controlled area of Parliament Square.
(2) The committee’s members shall be representatives of—
(a) all of the bodies which own or have responsibility for the controlled area of Parliament Square, and(b) the Metropolitan police force.(3) The committee shall co-ordinate the work of its members in order to ensure that the controlled area of Parliament Square is kept clear of litter, detritus or other debris.
(4) The Committee shall report annually to both Houses of Parliament.”

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I am putting to the Government a rather simpler method of dealing with the whole problem. It is a gentler method. It is something that I have given a lot of thought to over a very long time. Indeed, I have a Private Member’s Bill, which was published on 1 February, which has received lot of support. I have now incorporated that into Amendment 244ZCCA and Amendment 244ZEZA.

This starts from the premise that we are all agreed that Parliament Square is an excellent place for there to be public protest and where there has always been public protest. It is only in recent years that the problem has emerged at all. The catalyst for the problem, of course, has been the introduction of camping. Although Parliament Square is an ideal place for people to protest and should be made available for people, it is not a good thing that people are able to camp there for weeks, months or sometimes years and hog the space, which in effect prevents other people from having use of it. It also makes it a much less impressive, vibrant and immediate source of protest. Therefore, my solution is much simpler. All we really need to do is to ensure through practical housekeeping that people do not camp there.

The problem of control of Parliament Square should be dealt with by having a Parliament Square committee, which would have the function of managing Parliament Square. All those who were interested could be on that committee. That is laid down in my first amendment. Then my suggestion is simple. At some point during each night during midnight and 6.00 am, Parliament Square should be swept clean and any detritus left is removed. People can come back in the morning, start all over again and do whatever they want.

When my Private Member’s Bill was published, I got a telephone call from Westminster City Council, which expressed great interest in it. I explained what I just said and someone said, “We never thought of that”. It is not only simpler and gentler but—this might be presumptuous—it is more elegant. Frankly, the Home Office has an awful lot of people who labour to produce these things and inevitably they produce more detail. One detail leads to another and one factor leads to another. I have removed a couple of clauses from its Bill, which I hope it will not take too much offence at, but I have included in the categories in my second amendment the sort of things that could be removed.

I hope very much that the Government will realise that this would deal with the essence of the problem. It would be much less confrontational and difficult. If it did not work, of course in the future this could be looked at again and we could do more. But by removing that catalyst of the permanent encampment and occupation of the square, which is a pretty dead form of protest, we would be moving forward. It is a solution that I hope will commend itself to the Government and I hope that they do not produce a lot of technical reasons why it is not practical. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I note that these two amendments are identical, and almost identical to the Private Member’s Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. Does this replace his Private Member’s Bill or will we return to this on 1 July, which I think is now scheduled for the Second Reading of his Bill, for a third debate on the issue that began with the Second Reading of the Private Member’s Bill of my noble friend Lord Tyler last Friday?

As I have already said, I welcome the discussion of not just the future of Parliament Square but also the whole question of the democratic environs of the Palace of Westminster. If I might go slightly off ministerial piste, so to speak, I think that we all recognise that the most intrusive element in Parliament Square is traffic. Some of us were actively supportive of the World Squares for All initiative which intended to close off either one or two sides of the square. That would give us back a major democratic space. Part of the reason that the encampment has been able to lodge on those pavements for some time without interference is because it is difficult for the ordinary person to get across the traffic on to Parliament Square Garden under most conditions except in the middle of the night.

If we are going to discuss the whole issue of Parliament Square and demonstrations in the vicinity of Westminster, Abingdon Green and so on, I suggest that we need to pull together a committee which will include not just the authorities here but also the Supreme Court, the authorities of Westminster Abbey and elsewhere. I am sympathetic to a good deal of what is behind the amendment but suggest that if we are to discuss this area it is not just a question of the management of demonstrations or the encampment in the middle of Parliament Square. The Government are working with the Greater London Authority, Westminster City Council and the Metropolitan Police on effective enforcement protocols. Guidance will be issued to the public about these new provisions. However, that is about the narrow issue of the future of encampments in Parliament Square. The wider issues that I suspect the noble Lord wishes to get to require debate outside the confines of the Bill. I therefore request him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Marlesford]

That was a pretty negative response, if I may say so. Although I shall withdraw my amendment, pending Report, I am very glad that I have a slot for my Private Member’s Bill on 1 July, when we will have the opportunity to discuss the matter in more detail. It was mentioned several times by people in the discussion of the Bill proposed by my noble friend Lord Tyler. Indeed, my noble friend himself said that it would be a very useful follow-on for his Bill. Others welcomed it, too. Frankly, the point made by my noble friend Lord Wallace about the traffic is pretty irrelevant; it is not in any way involved in what I am suggesting, nor is it involved in what the Government suggest in their Bill. So that is a bit of a distraction.

There seems to be an idea that this matter should be just pushed into the long grass. I know that the Home Office is very reluctant to accept views from outside, but there are occasions when it has to. I remind the House that in 1997 I proposed an amendment to have a national register of firearms on a computerised system. For 10 years, the department played “Yes Minister” in order not to get it. Fortunately, every Minister during that time on both sides did their best to get it done and, eventually, it was put into practice. It is now working extremely well. When the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, who was then chairman of the Home Affairs Committee in another place, called the Permanent Secretary to the Home Office to ask why this proposal, which had been enacted, had not been carried forward, he was told, “It was never our idea—it was Lord Marlesford’s idea. We have our own views”. The noble Lord said, “But it’s law”. Anyway, the Home Office did it eventually.

I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Wallace does not feel inclined to take a slightly more positive view than he has done. I am glad that we will have a debate on 1 July, and I hope that noble Lords will come and take part in it—and I look forward to bringing back the amendment at Report. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment 244ZCCA withdrawn.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, this has been a remarkable occasion in the House of Lords. The depth and experience of the speeches has been terrific, and I am so glad to have been here to listen to three moving maiden speeches. I congratulate the Government on introducing an important Bill that in many ways is very radical. I think it will be a big step forward. I should say straightaway that a lot of work has been put into it, unlike some of the other pieces of legislation that have been put before us in recent months which have been ill digested and caused a great deal of grief all the way round.

I, too, want to focus on Part 1 covering the proposals for elected police and crime commissioners and to say something about Part 3 covering the proposals for Parliament Square. We have all had many representations on the Bill. I found the ACPO submission helpful, and I have had the advantage of a discussion with the chief constable of my own home county force in Suffolk and a discussion with the chair of the Suffolk police authority.

There are four reasons, most of which have been referred to, why elected commissioners for forces outside London would be a huge advance. The precedents in the United States, although totally rubbish at one point, have in general been helpful. Those in the UK certainly have been. Secondly, people do not feel that they have an individual whom they can hold to account, to whom they can make representations on their expectations or occasionally express their unhappiness with the performance of the police. Thirdly, the police should be held accountable, not in terms of their individual operations but for their overall operational efficiency. Fourthly, and it has not been referred to sufficiently, the police often need a local person who has the democratic authority to speak up on their behalf.

Let me also acknowledge some of the concerns that the police have over this change. Will there be interference with operational independence? Will an elected commissioner have a party political agenda, a manifesto commitment or the need to demonstrate personal energy or achievement? Will the police and crime panel advising the commissioner have too many powers of veto over a chief constable’s plans? Will the appointment and removal of chief officers continue to be fair and independent? Will the security clearance of the police and crime commissioners be adequate for them to receive full and frank briefings on sensitive matters of security and criminal intelligence?

I believe that the transfer of responsibility for the Met from the Home Secretary to the mayor have been a real success. I remember a wonderful man called Donald Grant, chief of public relations at the Home Office in the days when Lord Whitelaw was Home Secretary, once saying to me, as a journalist asking why something I was going to write about had not been done, “You know, Mark, when Willie is dealing with the Met, he is treading on eggshells”. That is not a healthy relationship. Perhaps one of the worst examples was in July 1982 when a man got into the Queen’s bedroom in Buckingham Palace. The commissioner at the time refused to resign, as I personally believe he should have done.

My noble friend Lord Howard has pointed out that the membership of local police authorities, even the chair, is sometimes unknown to 99 per cent or 99.9 per cent of the local population; I cannot remember which figure he used. That is a real democratic deficit. Even MEPs have a better level of recognition than that. The new police and crime panels will be very important. I suspect that they really could be smaller than the 17 members there are on police authorities, and in many ways, although they will be appointed from local authorities, they will often effectively act as deputies for the commissioner him or herself.

The maintenance of operational independence does not mean that a commissioner’s involvement with operational efficiency is in any way inappropriate. For example, the police can sometimes be quite clumsy in the way in which they handle traffic incidents, showing little regard for the inconvenience to road users from long road closures and diversions. It is perfectly proper and desirable that commissioners should be able to reflect consequent public irritation on such matters. I believe that neighbourhood watch schemes are important and have a real contribution to make, yet quite often the police regard them as just a nuisance.

Another really important point, which I mentioned earlier in my four reasons, is that the commissioner should be able to represent the views of the police when it is difficult for them to do so themselves. For example, when there is ill-founded criticism of the use of profiling for policing, even though the shortage of resources for the police means they have to use them efficiently, an elected commissioner speaking for the taxpayer should be able to mount an effective and brisk defence of the police. I noticed last week that the Chairman of British Airways, Sir Martin Broughton, talked a lot of sense on that issue in relation to the scrutiny of passengers.

Finally, I want to say a brief word on the proposals for Parliament Square in Part 3. I hope we can all agree that Parliament Square is the most appropriate place for public demonstrations to parliamentarians, the public and the media on any matter which is of public concern. But it should be a vibrant and fluid place, not a squalid camp with faded and tattered banners or a precious space hogged by some for months or even years. I am afraid the Bill as drafted, with its five pages of legislation, is not the best way forward. In February 2011, I published a Private Member’s Bill, the Parliament Square (Management) Bill, which proposes in four clauses and on only two pages a simpler and, I believe, more elegant solution. Under my Bill, there would be a Parliament Square committee made up of all the bodies responsible for the square. It would have the power and the obligation to remove from Parliament Square each night at any time between midnight and 6 am all litter, detritus or other debris, including tents and sleeping equipment. I believe within two or three weeks we would have a transformed square. I propose in Committee to introduce some amendments to the Government's Bill. I have talked to a number of colleagues on all sides of the House and I feel I have some hope of getting some support.

Immigration: High Court Ruling

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

As I said, my Lords, the object of the Statement tomorrow will be to get us into conformity, as we understand it, with the judgment. Then, when we see the judgment in writing, if we need to make further changes in the light of that, we will certainly do so. It is not clear to me how much clearer I can be on the question of the nature of the rigidity introduced by the cap. There is complex drafting involved in putting a limit in the rules to give us the ability then to change it, which is why the Government decided, in order to retain flexibility, that we would keep the limit in the guidance.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that new controls over migration are of limited value unless there is effective border control over those entering and leaving the country? Does she therefore understand my disappointment that she has apparently decided that the coalition agreement pledge to “reintroduce exit checks” cannot be fulfilled until 2015, which is later than the former Labour Government planned to introduce this change? Given that her Written Answers to me reveal that only some 5 per cent of those departing the UK are currently subject to exit controls, and that there is complacency at the Home Office on the need for urgent action, will she hold urgent discussions with our right honourable friend the Home Secretary, to whom she is responsible for national security, with a view to getting something done?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am not clear quite how relevant the points that my noble friend has just made are to this debate. Most of the people coming in, except for a very small number, are sponsored to this country, so it will not be difficult to know when they are moving—their employers will not be able to have a new person in, in the absence of being able to demonstrate that those who previously had that sponsorship have left.

Public Disorder at NUS Rally

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble Lord makes some good observations about what went on. The Statement was rather careful in just referring to a “faction”, because at this stage we simply do not know exactly who was involved. He is quite right, and anyone who viewed television saw what he saw, that there was obviously preparation; you do not come along with a mask without the intention of doing something, or indeed with, I believe, a hammer. Clearly there was premeditation.

The noble Lord is also right to say that this must have been pretty frightening for those who were in the building. I would say that one of the first cares of the police when they arrived in that building was to secure the safety of those in it and, thereafter, to begin to eject the intruders.

I cannot answer the question about the information to the management. I would hope that because of the route, and given that the police were there, the management of the building had some forewarning.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I am sure we all agree that peaceful protest is a crucial element of democracy and that the right place to protest against Parliament is Parliament Square. Unfortunately, Parliament Square is barely available now to protesters. Because of the misuse of the whole green area over a long period, it has all had to be closed off, and now the pavement in front of that area is occupied by a permanent camp. Will my noble friend recognise that Parliament Square should be kept as an open space, available for protest, and that the way of achieving that is to say that there should be no permanent camps in the square? I suggest that at some stage in future—I do not know whether it needs legislation—all impedimenta is removed between midnight and 6 am. People can come and protest any time they like but, between midnight and 6 am, anything that has been left behind is removed by appropriate vehicles. That at least will mean that Parliament Square is then available for protest, which is such an important aspect of our liberty.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble Lord is right to say that we need to have Parliament Square available for protest. The House had a big discussion of this issue a few days ago and I repeat what I said then: we entirely agree that that is the case. At the moment the grass is being reseeded, which is why the square is not available. The Government intend to bring forward a first Session Bill not so much directed at in any way limiting or trying to curtail the right to organise a protest but to deal with those things that get in the way of and frustrate the right to peaceful protest, which will include encampments.

Terrorism: Aviation Security

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, we are not entirely at the stage when we can answer all those very detailed questions—and we may never be. The “could” rather than the “would” relates to a number of factors, including the precise power of the explosive material and the power of the detonator. Also relevant would be where these devices were located in the aircraft—had they been in the middle of the fuselage, they would have been less likely to cause an accident than if, say, they were near the outer skin of the aircraft. There are a number of imponderables. It is fair to say that those who put the devices on board—these were cargo routes, which can vary at the last minute—could not have known in practice where, if they were able to cause a detonation, it would have taken place. It would be hard for them to know exactly how accurate their ability to detonate was.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, given that terrorists travel both in and out of countries, does my noble friend share my deep concern that at present only people travelling into the United Kingdom have their passports properly examined electronically? Is she aware—I assume that she must be, because any of us who travels must be—that immigration officers make very little attempt to look at the passports of those who are leaving the United Kingdom? Indeed, in April I travelled out of terminal 3 at Heathrow where there was no one at all at the immigration desk to look at one’s passport. When I asked why, I was told that there was nobody available. When is the electronics border system—the e-Borders system—which is meant to record both the departure and the arrival of passengers, going to be in full effect? As a result of what is now happening, will the Minister ensure that scrutiny of people departing from the United Kingdom is properly and electronically achieved?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, it certainly is the intention that in due course we will be able to record not only incoming travel but outgoing travel as well. The noble Lord is right to say that that is not happening at the moment. It is certainly not happening electronically. I cannot give him, I am afraid, a precise date, but I can say that we are doing our very best to speed up the introduction of e-Borders to enable us to have this information. That would not have necessarily borne directly on this episode, but of course everything helps in giving us greater information about those who are travelling. As I said at the beginning, it is relevant to know not only about cargo but about those who are potentially travelling in the same aircraft.

Biometric Passports

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, the noble Lord has raised various points. There are no reasons at all to suppose that the absence of a second biometric in British passports will in any way hinder the ability of British citizens to travel to whichever country they wish to enter. The United States takes the fingerprints of people entering the country but does not insist on fingerprints in passports. The US does not itself have, or intend to put, fingerprints into its passports.

This Government entirely agree with the noble Lord that passport security is extremely important. Although the move to introduce a second biometric will not continue, one part of the programme that definitely will continue is the strengthening of security surrounding the existing facial biometric.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that effective passports are a crucial weapon in protecting this country from both terrorism and crime? Will the Government ensure that the e-Borders system, which was introduced by the previous Government but is taking far too long to put into effect, happens? At the moment, there are huge gaps in passport control. On 27 April at about 10 o’clock in the morning, I was leaving the UK from terminal 3 but no one made the slightest attempt to look at my passport. When I asked why, I was told that they did not have enough staff. That is not good enough.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I think the whole House will agree that secure passports are an extremely important part of combating terrorism. It is certainly the case that there are no exit controls at the moment but it is intended that they should come into operation as part of the e-Borders programme.