Employment Rights Bill

Lord Londesborough Excerpts

2nd reading
Thursday 27th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I have just four minutes, so I will not beat about the bush. While I understand the need to bear down on unscrupulous employment practices, this Bill is fundamentally misguided, out of date and out of touch and will wreck the spirit of enterprise. It will damage jobs, productivity and wages across both the public and private sectors. That is not just my view, but the OBR’s. The impact assessment, which claims that the Bill will have a net positive impact on growth, is guilty of fantasy economics, suggesting that its authors have little feel for, or experience of, creating jobs, developing careers or even meeting payroll.

Perhaps most troubling is that all the clauses in this 300-page Bill, and its 200 pages of Explanatory Notes, apply to all employers without exception, whether you are a UK multinational with a workforce of 100,000, a start-up with 10 staff or a family business with two employees. It is one size fits all, whether we are talking about day one rights, probationary periods, guaranteed hours or flexible working. This Bill shows scant regard for building a competitive economy with modem working practices. It discriminates against SMEs—our country’s engine of growth—and offers nothing for freelancers and the self-employed, for which perhaps we should be grateful.

My views are shaped by my lived experience over 30 years as an entrepreneur and employer, from a start-up with two employees around the kitchen table to building a workforce that grew to 10 staff, then to 50, 100 and eventually to 300 employees, plus 100 freelancers. I learned what it takes to recruit and train people effectively, to incentivise and reward them and to develop their careers from probation to permanent, from junior to management and from internship to becoming an equity partner. I took risks and made many mistakes along the way, from hiring the wrong people, holding on to staff for too long, overpaying, underpaying, growing too quickly and having to downsize in the rough and tumble of the free market. But here is the thing: I never once ended up in an employment tribunal and my experiences with staff and freelancers were overwhelmingly positive, driven by common mutual interest and without the need to resort to onerous employment manuals, interfering HR departments or, indeed, employment lawyers.

This Bill suffers from overreach and will kill entrepreneurial spirit, coming as it does on the back of the misguided NICs Bill, on which I have fought hard to protect our smaller businesses—and I will go into battle again on their behalf in Committee on this Bill, mindful that the Federation of Small Businesses reports that two-thirds of its members say that the proposals in the Bill will make them curb hiring. There are two professions that will benefit from this Bill—HR practitioners and employment lawyers—but, in terms of productivity, this Bill is terribly timed and represents another giant vampire squid sucking the life out of our economy.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Londesborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th April 2025 Lords Chamber

This Bill will have massive impacts on millions of small businesses which are nowhere near the 50-employee threshold. If that does not negatively impact growth, it will be a miracle. I also particularly worry about scale-ups and start-ups, but, fortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, who knows far more about them than me, will—I hope—be speaking about them in due course. In the meantime, I beg to move.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 5 and 124 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, to which I have readily added my name.

Before I get stuck into the detail, I should perhaps offer an apology for comments that I made at Second Reading, when I compared this Bill to a giant vampire squid sucking the life out of our economy. Although this metaphor generated considerable media coverage, it prompted several eagle-eyed members of the public to point out that the vampire squid is no bloodsucker as it eats only dead organic material. It turns out that I inadvertently picked the only mollusc that does not eat live prey, so I stand corrected and apologise to the marine life community for this oversight.

As far as the Bill goes, I make no apology. I will focus on Part 1 and its impact on our all-important start-ups and scale-ups. We have 35,000 scale-ups in the UK, contributing £1.6 trillion to the UK economy annually; that is more than 50% of the value of the whole of the UK’s SME economy, despite these companies making up less than 1% of the SME population. They are crucial because they represent the most dynamic element of our economic growth: they create jobs at the fastest rate, promote their staff at the fastest rate and attract significant investment.

I should declare my interests as set out in the register: I chair, advise and invest in a range of start-ups and scale-ups, and it is their lived experience that informs my comments, along with my own years as a micro, small and medium-sized employer.

Working for scale-ups and start-ups is both demanding and rewarding. Entry-level jobs tend to pay less than average and have considerably fewer benefits than average, but progress more rapidly in terms of pay, bonuses and promotion, with such employees often becoming equity stakeholders. Scale-ups thrive on flexibility and a performance culture—something that Part 1 of this Bill seems to ignore.

Another important group sitting within the small and micro sector is family businesses employing fewer than 50 staff, the majority of them having fewer than 10 employees. These businesses often have only one member of staff covering each responsibility, and their HR has to be covered by the owner or the senior manager. Subjecting these groups to the full battery of clauses and schedules in Part 1 of this Bill is, I believe, disproportionate, costly, distracting and growth-sapping.

On the subject of costs, the Bill’s impact assessment suggests a burden of an extra £5 million per annum for all employers and admits that this will disproportionately fall on small and micro-businesses, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, just outlined. However, that is a crude estimate and appears to have been drawn very narrowly. It fails to assess the invisible costs of complicated recruitment, performance reviews, dismissals and the general administration of HR. The smaller the business, the greater the distraction from core activities, tying up key leadership and management time in less productive areas. In plain language, this means lost output.

Recruitment is critical for small and micro-businesses and is set to become far riskier in an already difficult climate. Part 1 of this Bill threatens to complicate probation, performance reviews and dismissal for fair cause. Day one rights and dismissal constraints will deter risk-taking and reduce employment opportunities at entry and graduate levels, especially in middle and senior management. It will encourage employers to hold on to bad hires and to promote mediocre or underqualified ones.

Flexible working, shift changes and guaranteed hours have already been covered in the previous group, so I will not duplicate, other than to say that this is a special problem for small and micro-businesses, especially those that rely on part-time workers and shift patterns. The hospitality sector is a prime example.

I shall finish by countering the Government’s expected response to this group of amendments: that there should be no exemptions as these new employment rights should apply universally across the economy, and that we should not create a two-tier workforce. Although I understand the thrust of that argument, it does not reflect the real employment market. SMBs, as we have already heard, cannot compete with large businesses when it comes to pay scales, training, promotion opportunities and a whole range of benefits, including pensions. Indeed, most have no HR function, let alone department, and that reflects their size.

However, what SMBs do have to offer is a friendly working environment; greater flexibility than average; a stakeholder culture, whether that is reflected in equity or in identity; and the fact that every role in their organisation is a critical part of the business, leading to strong employee loyalty and identification. Applying to small and micro-businesses consisting of five or 10 staff the very same employment rights that are applied to multinationals such as Amazon, which employs 75,000 people in this country, will do serious damage to our jobs market. That is why I wholeheartedly endorse these amendments.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak briefly in support of Amendments 5 and 124, so ably spoken to by my noble friend Lady Noakes, and well supported by the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough. I also support Amendment 282, which I expect will be addressed by my noble friend Lord Sharpe or my noble friend Lord Hunt.

The impact on the smallest businesses will, as stated by my noble friend Lady Noakes, be great. The cost to business of implementing the Bill could be as much as £5 billion, according to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. She said that this would be a transfer to the lowest-paid segment of the workforce. I do not think that that would be the result. My noble friends’ amendments would mitigate the stifling effect on small businesses that the Bill will have.

Small and micro-businesses are already struggling with the additional costs of the increases in employers’ national insurance contributions introduced two weeks ago. It is small and micro-businesses that most need flexibility in the nature of the employment models they can offer workers. Putting such businesses into a straitjacket will remove employment opportunities for many of those who prefer flexible-hours contracts, and even for the many young people who actually quite like zero-hours contracts, or who would at least rather that such opportunities existed than not—which will otherwise be the consequence of enacting the Bill. My noble friend Lady Lawlor spoke convincingly on this matter in the previous group.

Part 1 of the Bill will prevent many small businesses taking the risks inherent in adding a new business line or expanding the size of their operations. I hope that the Minister will carefully consider the strong arguments made for the exemption of small and micro-businesses from these measures. In that way, the Government might achieve their declared aim of transferring value to the lowest-paid segment of the workforce.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Londesborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 8th May 2025 Lords Chamber

These amendments are trying to preserve flexibility for the poor business owner. We all know that many business owners are having to close down. With some it is because of employment law, and with others it is because of the very high rates that they have to pay on the high street; there are many reasons. But here is an opportunity for them to preserve flexibility. I hope the Minister will give very careful thought to these amendments as we work our way through the Bill, because the alternative is lower employment, lower growth and people out of work because we have been too prescriptive.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to Amendment 19A in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Wirral, and offer my support for Amendments 20 and 21.

My main concern, as I expressed on the first day in Committee, is over the impact of guaranteed-hours contracts on the small and micro-business sector, specifically those with fewer than 50 staff. Amendment 19A is particularly relevant to start-ups and scale-ups, and we cannot ignore their high-risk operational context. Again, I declare my interest as set out in the register: I chair, advise and invest in a range of start-ups.

Clause 1’s right to guaranteed hours will inhibit job creation but also job mobility and flexibility, as we have heard, if applied to such businesses, to the detriment of both employer and employee. Rigidity—I think the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, used that word—is especially dangerous in a flat economy environment such as we have at the moment.

Small business planning requires agility and flexibility when creating new jobs. As we know, business circumstances will change, often on a month-to-month basis, given the natural volatility around budgeting, forecasting revenues, forecasting bookings and indeed anticipating demand. When we talk about

“the reasonableness of entering into a limited-term contract”,

we simply cannot afford to ignore the early-stage development of these companies and watch them avoid risk-taking.

The Member’s explanatory statement to Amendment 19A quite rightly points to

“unforeseeable changes in business conditions”,

and that is especially relevant to small businesses. As I know through bitter experience, as both an employer and an investor, there is often a huge delta between entrepreneurs’ forecasts and the actual outcomes. This is about not just seasonality, events or the weather but unpredictable customer demand.

We should therefore not handicap entrepreneurial risk-taking, which this economy so desperately needs to encourage, and specifically the creation of new jobs, by applying such blanket restrictions on limited-term employment contracts. We need a more nuanced approach, as this amendment suggests, and I ask the Government to give it serious consideration.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in this group in the names of my noble friends on our Front Bench. I have a number of concerns about the guaranteed-hours provisions in the Bill, one of them being that they are drafted almost wholly from the perspective of workers and pay little heed to the needs of employers. I do not believe that is a good way to create employment law to underpin a healthy economy.

On our first day in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Barber of Ainsdale, who is not in his place today, and the noble Baroness, Lady Carberry of Muswell Hill, both spoke about the work of the Low Pay Commission on zero-hours contracts. I was grateful to them for being pointed in that direction. I have a great deal of time for the work of the Low Pay Commission, which is always balanced and very careful, so I went back and looked at the 2018 report. Unsurprisingly, I found that it does not provide the copper-bottomed support for the Bill that noble Lords opposite have claimed—I should also say that the employment bodies represented on the Low Pay Commission have told us that as well.

The Low Pay Commission did indeed recommend that workers should be offered guaranteed-hours contracts, but, importantly, it also recognised that there would be circumstances in which it would not be reasonable for the employer to have to do that. There is not a trace of that in the Bill. The Low Pay Commission was clear that the Bill should set out specific circumstances in which the employer would not have to offer guaranteed hours. The commission cited with approval some equivalent legislation which was at that stage going through the Irish parliament, which provided, among other things, that adverse changes in the employer’s business or the existence of temporary factors would allow employers not to offer guaranteed hours.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, I believe that Amendment 19A is eminently reasonable in that context. It does not give an employer carte blanche to ignore guaranteed hours but allows for some genuine business circumstances to be taken into account by the employer when looking at whether guaranteed-hours contracts should be offered.

At the end of the day, if we do not have successful businesses, there will not be any jobs on any kind of contract available. As I said on our first day in Committee, I am particularly concerned, as is the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, about small and micro-businesses, which really need to be allowed the flexibility if we are to protect the work opportunities of around half the private sector workforce.

Even if those small and micro-businesses survive the incredible bureaucracy associated with these guaranteed hours, they will potentially not survive the substantive impact of the hours if they are required in all circumstances to offer guaranteed-hours contracts. Of course, this is particularly the case in the hospitality sector, the largest user of zero-hours contracts; my noble friend Lord Hunt spoke about the problems in that sector. There are also very large numbers of small and micro-businesses in that sector.

Recognising some very limited flexibility, my noble friend’s Amendment 19A is actually very modest. It would go some way towards making this new requirement to offer guaranteed hours work in the context of businesses that have to face difficult circumstances, and at the moment the Bill pays no attention to that.

--- Later in debate ---

At the very least, to test the water, can we not say that we will have an impact assessment on whether the Bill will be positive to sectors that are absolutely drowning, in many instances because of things that this Government and the previous Government have done? Surely we have to ensure that something that is well intentioned to help workers does not do more harm than good. Therefore, we should support an assessment of what the impact will be.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 63. I agree that the impact of Clauses 1 to 8 will be especially felt by these three sectors: hospitality, retail and social care. But, to be frank, I would not stop there; I advocate expanding this impact assessment, not only to small businesses and micro-businesses—noble Lords would expect me to say that—but to all key sectors in the economy. There will be huge employment variations sector by sector, and they need to be analysed and understood. As we keep hearing, one size does not fit all—although the Bill has a different view on that—and we have the issue of “mind the gap”.

Two other industries that certainly deserve such assessments are the creative industries, which we will debate on another day, and the gig economy. Some very disturbing numbers are already coming out of membership surveys from bodies such as the Federation of Small Businesses and the Institute of Chartered Accountants. I will share two bits of data from the ICAEW’s latest quarterly business survey for the first quarter of this year. It says that 53% of its members expect that the Bill will

“reduce their plans to hire permanent staff”,

and that 40% anticipate greater use of outsourcing because of the Bill—that is a very significant number.

What does this mean? It means—it is already happening—that employees will be coming off payroll and going into freelance and self-employed roles. We have an amendment coming up in many days’ time, or probably weeks; I will not read out the names of my noble friends who are behind it, but it is Cross-Bench and Liberal Democrat-sponsored and relates to the establishment of a freelance commissioner office. I think the Government may have very little choice on this, because the demands for the services of that office are going to go up exponentially, partly because of this Bill and also because of the national insurance contributions Bill. I will not repeat all those arguments.

I come to the second unforeseen consequence—although, frankly, these are not unforeseen, are they? They are foreseen. We can actually say with some certainty that the Government are encouraging the offshoring of jobs from the UK. This trend has been going on for decades, but is it really the objective of the Government, particularly for lower-paid and entry-level roles, to see a percentage of those jobs going off to countries such as India, Vietnam, the Philippines, Romania or Moldova? I am not against offshoring, but I think you have to be very careful about being seen to be encouraging it, and I believe the Bill is guilty of that.

On the assessment, which we hope will happen, the area that should be looked at in greatest detail is the impact on part-time jobs. We have heard already about the young graduates and students, but I will speak up also for older workers. Those of us here who sit on the Economic Affairs Committee—I see the noble Lord, Lord Davies, here—will be aware that we are conducting an inquiry on the economics of an ageing society. If the Government are to achieve their noble objective of raising the economic activity rate from 75% to 80% across all age groups, they will have to tackle the 50 to 70 year-old cohort.

In order to get people back into work, not just those who took premature retirement but those who have been on benefits for a long time, we will have to be far more flexible about creating part-time work, and I am afraid that the Bill is likely to deter the creation of part-time roles. So that is another area that I believe the impact assessment should be looking at, which is not just by sector but by type of job.

I am told by my friends in the recruitment industry, if I can call them that, that there is already a shift in hiring from permanent to interim, and that trend started at the beginning of this year and is accelerating. Again, national insurance contributions have pushed employment in that direction and the Bill threatens to do the same.

My final point, talking about assessments, is that HMRC may well want to conduct one to discover that its projected national insurance contribution tax revenues will, as a result of the Bill, take a significant hit as employees start being taken off payroll and moved into self-employed, part-time or even offshored roles.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

Perhaps I might intervene briefly on this group. I support Amendment 63 but, like the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, I wonder whether it is too modest in scope. As I said when I spoke on the last day in Committee, I am sympathetic to the kinds of effects that zero-hours contracts or some of the different kinds of practices that we see now have on employees in these businesses, which are often at the lower end of the pay scale.

However, I am very struck, by listening not just to this debate but to the debates on the various different things that we have been discussing this afternoon, that what we do not seem to be taking account of—or rather, to be more specific, what the Government do not seem to have taken account of in bringing forward this legislation—is that a lot of the practices that they are trying to remove or mitigate are the consequence of other things that have been introduced in the past which have been well intentioned in support of low-paid workers but are now creating other things. For instance, although it is going back some time now and various other things have happened since, I think about the arrival of tax credits when Gordon Brown was Chancellor. That led to people wanting to reduce their contracted hours because of the impact on their various benefits.

So when I hear people say that some of these measures—or, rather, the removal of some of these practices and various other things in the Bill—start to disincentivise people either being offered more hours or whatever, I worry that, given the way in which the Bill has been introduced and what feels like inadequate assessment through the proper stages—Green Paper, and all that sort of thing—we are creating yet more problems, which will then lead to the need for yet more legislation, which will never get to the heart of what we are trying to do here, which is to create an employment economy that is fair for employees and people do not feel that they are being exploited but have the flexibility that they need, and where employers, too, have the freedom and independence that they absolutely need to be able to employ workers and grow their businesses to contribute to the fundamental agenda, which is a growing economy that is fair to everybody concerned.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Londesborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 19th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meyer (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to my amendments, as well as Amendment 84, for the same reasons so clearly highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Acton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. Of course no one should ever face sexual harassment at work. That is why we passed the worker protection Act 2023 to place a clear duty on employers to take reasonable steps to prevent it, including from third parties. That law came into force only six months ago, so, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, quite clearly highlighted, why are we adding the so-called banter clause?

Clause 20 is not just unnecessary but a threat to free speech, a blow to small businesses, and a betrayal of the very spirit of this country. It amends the Equality Act 2010 to extend third-party harassment to non-sexual conduct. A casual comment between customers that is misunderstood or simply unpopular could trigger a legal claim, as noble Lords previously explained. This is not the same as the Conservative Government’s earlier reforms, which explicitly protected political, moral, religious or social opinions. Are we really expecting publicans, shopkeepers and café owners to police conversations on their premises? Someone joked that pubs would need “banter bouncers”. The Government laughed, but for small businesses it is not a joke. Even the Equality and Human Rights Commission warns that this is legally complex and challenging. Employers will need legal advice, staff training and new policy, and will risk get it wrong.

Clause 20 also demands that employers “take all reasonable steps” to protect their employees. This sounds minor, but it creates major uncertainty. What does “all reasonable steps” mean? To make matters worse, the Secretary of State will define reasonable steps by secondary legislation, without parliamentary scrutiny. This is not good governance. And at what cost? The Budget itself estimates an extra £3.4 billion cost for the hospitality sector alone. Dozens of pubs are already closing every week. Do we really want to make this worse?

This debate is not only legal and economic; it is also cultural and, for me, personal. I became a British citizen not because I had to but because I wanted to. I fell in love with this country for its soul, its quiet strength, its humour and its tolerance. In Britain, we did not take offence; we took the mickey. We disapproved without outrage. We rolled our eyes and moved on. We did not report people or call a lawyer. As Douglas Sutherland once said, the Englishman is never quite so natural as when he is being artificially humorous. That gentle irony—that refusal to take ourselves too seriously—is part of who we are. This clause will legislate it out of existence. This is not dignity at work; it is paranoia in public. Clause 20 will create a society where offence becomes power and litigation will replace common sense. We will become a society that silences its own people. We have seen where that leads—in regimes built on censorship and denunciation.

These amendments are crucial. Without them, the consequences will be more regulation, more red tape, more job losses and more silent voices before, once again, we will be forced to admit that we have gone too far. I support all the noble Lords who spoke before me in favour of these amendments. In particular, I reiterate that Clause 20 is unnecessary.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak in particular to Amendments 83 to 85, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Acton. Clause 20, on harassment by third parties, although well-intentioned, has triggered this batch of amendments, none of which is perfect. Most seek to damage limit the Bill or bring in exemptions.

I will focus on the exemptions proposed in Amendment 85 and declare up front a relevant interest, in that I hold a significant minority stake in a rural community pub in mid-Wales. As we have already heard, the hospitality sector is low margin and struggling with a range of issues, including shortages of staff, smoking bans, competition from supermarkets, the rise of home entertainment, big tech and social media. Pubs specifically have had a horrendous time. In England and Wales alone, we have lost 13,000 pubs in the past 25 years and, as we have heard, each and every week another 10 close their doors for the final time.

Now this Bill expects the owner or the bar manager, often on low pay and inexperienced, to take on the role of a conversation arbiter or chat monitor in case a customer says something to their drinking or dining pal that is overheard and deemed offensive by an employee. To be clear, I accept that employers should step up if their customers or clients are being offensive to their staff. Yes, they have a responsibility to their staff’s welfare and to their code of conduct, but is legislating in this way the answer? It leaves so many questions, on a subjective level, of what is offensive and what is not.

That brings me to the second sector proposed for exemption by Amendment 85: sports venues. This is where Clause 20 threatens to become unworkable. This struck me only yesterday while I was in the London Stadium, with 60,000 others, watching West Ham stumble to yet another home defeat, this time against Nottingham Forest. There was a lot of anger in the crowd and much of the language could be described as vulgar or offensive. Others would call it passionate, fruity, spiky or humorous, but these views could be heard—or, importantly, overheard—by club officials, security staff, stewards, the police, bar staff, programme sellers and burger flippers, all of whom are employees of the club, the stadium, or various contractors and subcontractors. These views, in the space of 10 minutes, included the manager’s IQ being questioned vigorously and frequently; savaging of the players and their work ethic; forthright suggestions that the referee’s assistant should book multiple appointments at Specsavers; and, finally, the referee himself being repeatedly accused of practising self-love.

I am choosing my words carefully and not quoting directly in order to meet this House’s Code of Conduct, which I respect and have signed up to, but if I did not and repeated some of the profanities I heard yesterday, I would be in trouble. Here is the thing: Parliament, as an employer, would not currently be taken to a tribunal by a colleague, a doorkeeper or a Hansard employee who found my language offensive, but that could change if this Bill has its way.

The point is that most workplaces are covered by a code of conduct or employer’s handbook that sets out the markers and helps sort most of these incidents without the need for dispute litigation, employment lawyers or, indeed, tribunals. Much of this is driven by common sense and human decency, and the mutual interest of employer and employee to ensure a productive and harmonious working environment. Clause 20 threatens to undo much of that. I ask the Minister and this Government to seriously think again.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I rise to support the amendments in the names of my noble friends Lord Young of Acton and Lady Noakes to Clauses 20 and 21. Both noted, as have other noble Lords, the impact these clauses will have on small businesses already struggling under a juggernaut of burdens, particularly those introduced since last July.

I begin with my noble friend Lady Noakes’s amendments to Clause 21, which, as she noted, amends the Equality Act 2010. These amendments, Amendments 89 to 96, would require regulations to specify the steps an employer needs to take to prevent the harassment of an employee and to cover all forms of harassment so that, provided those steps are followed, the employer is protected from liability. This change is reasonable and proportionate, in that it would oblige regulations to specify the steps needed to protect employers from liability to claims. It is a matter of fairness and good law that a measure should be clear about the duties under it, rather than leaving it to litigation.

The measure also has precedents, such as health and safety regulations in which employers’ duties are set out. In the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 the main duties are to identify risks, assess them and reduce them. The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 require employers to provide adequate lighting, heating, ventilation and workspace and to keep them in a clean condition—and so on throughout the health and safety regulations of the 1990s. As if to egg the cake, we have the HSE’s guide on the steps needed to manage risk, which sets out step by step the process for controlling health and safety risk, in line with the regulations to identify hazards, assess risk and so on.

My noble friend Lady Noakes’s amendments to Clause 21 would ensure that employers know what is required in respect of preventing harassment, which matters in itself and is germane to good law. I therefore support them.

I also support Amendments 83 to 88, to Clause 20, in the names of my noble friends Lord Young of Acton and Lady Noakes. They address what is and is not required of employers in protecting their employees; clarify harassment to exclude

“the expression of an opinion on a political, moral, religious or social matter, provided the opinion is not indecent or grossly offensive”;

exclude the hospitality sector, university settings and sports venues so the obligation on the employer does not apply; exclude indirect harassment; take account of the employee’s perception of the circumstances and whether it was reasonable to have the effect; and take account of whether it was an isolated incident. These are all important amendments that have a great deal of support across the Committee.

Noble Lords have already explained how Clause 20 could undermine freedom of speech. We are not speaking of an employer’s liability for direct harassment by a third party, such as customers or clients, against an employee. That is covered by Section 40 of the Equality Act 2010. Rather, the clause being amended has the effect of making the employer liable for what third parties say when speaking among themselves, and which is then overheard by an employee. This might occur in a bar, restaurant, shop, the foyer of a cinema or theatre or on public transport. Customers in a restaurant or a bar might be discussing the latest immigration figures, the likelihood of yet more unsustainable migration into the country, the shortage of housing, schools and hospitals, ever longer waiting lists for a place or a bed, or an inability to understand English. To hold an employer liable for a private conversation among customers overheard by an employee is wrong. It would bring the law into disrepute.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Londesborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, I briefly add my support for Amendment 102 and will pick up on the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, on her committee’s recent visit to the Blackpool and The Fylde further education college. I declare an interest as a commissioner at the Social Mobility Commission, the chair of which is also the principal of the FE college that the committee went to visit. From the perspective of social mobility and the importance of apprenticeships, any measure that would deter the creation of quality apprenticeships that are successful is a bad one, and I therefore support this amendment.

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 102 in the name of my noble friend Lady Wolf of Dulwich and pitched so perfectly by my other noble friend Lord Aberdare—I realise that that sounds as though I only have two friends in this House, which I hope is not the case.

This amendment addresses a consequence of the Bill that will significantly reduce the willingness of employers to hire young people as apprentices—a consequence that I am sure was neither anticipated nor desired by the Government or indeed the Bill’s drafters, which is strange because this Government are acutely aware of the skills shortages facing this country and the need to address them. It was notable that, in introducing the Government’s new immigration strategy last week, both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary emphasised the need to invest in skills so that the immigration system

“no longer ignores the millions of people who want the opportunity to train and contribute”.

They also highlighted that, in sectors like engineering, apprenticeships have “almost halved” in recent years.

We only very recently debated the Bill, now an Act, that abolishes the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education. That change was not introduced because the Government are against apprenticeships; on the contrary, this is part of a reform that is creating a new integrated strategic body, Skills England, as we have heard, to meet, in its own words,

“the skills needs of the next decade across all regions”,

and apprenticeships are a central part of Skills England’s brief.

Young people do not need persuading of the value of apprenticeships. On the contrary, there is huge excess demand, as we have heard. Of those 17 to 18 year-olds who make a serious effort to find an apprenticeship, only 25% succeed. Young people typically start off on what are called intermediate apprenticeships, but these are in decline too, in absolute numbers and proportionally —crowded out by so-called higher apprenticeships, which are equivalent to university qualifications.

Today, more and more of our apprentices are older. Around half of apprenticeship starts now involve people over the age of 25. Critically, large numbers of older apprentices were already working for their employer before they became an apprentice. This is especially true of large employers who pay the apprenticeship levy, who account for a growing proportion of apprenticeships. So, if the Government are going to achieve their aims, we need to have far more openings for young apprentices —but there is a serious danger that the Bill will make large employers even more inclined to give apprenticeships to existing employees, with whose employment they take no risks, rather than hiring new young apprentices.

What about the young people who make up the growing number of NEETs? SMEs are the main employers of young apprentices and absolutely central to the economies of less-advantaged areas. But their apprenticeship recruitment has been plummeting. SME business owners complain that apprenticeships, as we have heard, have become more and more burdensome and bureaucratic, and just too expensive. So if, on top of this, young apprentices are entitled to full employee rights from day 1, many more employers, especially SMEs, will surely just walk away.

Taking on an untested person is always risky, and this Bill will make it much more so. In many other European countries, apprentices have a specific distinctive legal status. In the UK, they do not; they are simply any employees who have received an apprenticeship training contract. This Bill’s provisions will apply to them all, whether they are an 18 year-old training as an electrician or a 50 year-old on a leadership apprenticeship. These are the dangers of a one-size-fits-all approach, as I have already pointed out numerous times in Committee.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Londesborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Caine. She made some terribly important points; they are literally about matters of life and death.

I have added my name to Amendment 259, alongside the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. I apologise to the noble Earl for not having also signed Amendment 287; I certainly would have done so, had I caught up with it sooner. I previously backed a similar amendment from the noble Earl to an earlier Bill under the previous Government.

I declare my position as beneficiary of the Authors’ Licensing and Collecting Society, with which the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, is associated. I published one book with the society last year, and I have another one coming out this year.

Amendment 259 is about unionisation and collective bargaining in the arts and cultural sector, and it calls for alternative, appropriate models for the sector. I hope the Labour Government see sense and come back in support of the amendment. They believe—I hope—in the values of collective bargaining and of workers being able to get together to fight for appropriate conditions, whether it is health and safety, pay or work security.

I declare another position—or, perhaps, a situation—in that, 20 years ago, I reviewed a lot of London fringe theatre on my own website. Speaking to some of the actors and the other creatives involved in those performances, I learned that the conditions under which they were employed, or hoped to get paid, were often very precarious. I very much doubt that that situation has improved.

The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, spoke about the insecurity of Covid and what followed it. The Republic of Ireland saw that situation and took a step to deal with it: it introduced the universal basic income trial, which ran from 2022-24 and paid creative workers a weekly stipend of €325 for three years. We still have not had the formal impact assessment of that, but I have heard a great many anecdotal reports about the more stability and reduced stress for creative workers. Realised from anxiety, they had time and headspace to open up new possibilities and create trajectories. They spent time researching, experimenting and taking risks and really saw the benefits in their creative practice. What we are proposing here is not going as far as a universal basic income but is a collective bargaining approach that strengthens the position of creative workers within their sectors and organisations, particularly freelancers. This would surely be a positive step at least heading in that direction.

Finally, it might feel as if we are addressing something that has been an issue for a very long time. There is a very famous painting called the “Poor Poet”, done in three versions by the German painter Carl Spitzweg. It shows a garret room with a leaking roof. There is no fire or bed, only a mattress on the floor, and the poet is tucked underneath every bed covering because he cannot afford to heat his room. That has been a long-term stereotype, but it does not mean we have to continue that.

More practically, in the reality of Britain in 2025, many people cannot even manage to access conditions such as that. There is a real issue—and no one else has brought this up yet—about access to the creative sector being open to a wide variety of people from a wide variety of groups in our society, not just to people who can access the bank of mum and dad when things go a bit wrong and can afford to work as an unpaid intern for years. If we are going to have a creative sector that truly harnesses the talents of all our society, opens opportunities and—if I have to put it this way—is great for the economy, then surely all the amendments in the group, but particularly the amendments on collective bargaining and the freelance commissioner, would take us some steps down that road?

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I address Amendment 287 on the creation of an office for a freelance commissioner in the name of my noble friends Lord Clancarty, Lord Freyberg and Lord Colville of Culross, who has managed to beat our limited motorway system but arrived just too late to speak, sadly.

I am somewhat conflicted about this thought-provoking amendment, in that I have argued at Second Reading and in Committee against the overreach of the Bill and its sheer complexity and burden on employers, especially for small and micro businesses. On the noble Baroness’s comment, I do not want to be seen to be adding baubles to the Christmas tree. However, I agree that year by year the arguments grow for the establishment of a freelance commissioner, partly because the number of freelancers is growing and will continue to do so. The current 2 million plus freelancers will easily rise to 3 million within the next 10 years in the UK alone as employers shed staff from payroll, weighed down by the combination of increased national insurance contributions, national minimum wages increasing much faster than the rate of inflation and all the new rules and regulations coming in this very Employment Rights Bill.

Just look at the recent and alarming drop reported last week by the ONS of 274,000 workers coming off payroll during the past 12 months. We do not yet have the data to track how many of them are transitioning to freelance or self-employment. Indeed, as my noble friends have pointed out, the data on this area of freelancing and self-employment is poor and not up to international standards, and that is a real problem when we are trying to assess exactly what their contribution is to the economy.

I am going to muddy the water slightly, but you could argue that there is a need for an independent commissioner for the self-employed. We have been talking about freelancers, but there are 4.2 million self-employed people, including freelancers, in the UK. Those numbers are going to increase given the impact of technology, digital communications, AI and, particularly, the practice of working from home. I accept that there are key differences between freelancers and many self-employed people, for example, sole traders or those running their own businesses or partnerships, perhaps with just one or two contractors, but freelancers, although independent and project-based, are also self-employed and are treated just the same way for tax purposes by HMRC.

I accept that freelancers and the self-employed are not as valued or appreciated by Governments of all parties as they should be. This was brutally exposed during the pandemic with furlough and other schemes. If we want to develop a proper entrepreneurial spirit and environment in this country, we should do much more to value and look after those who create their own jobs and face up to all the risks and jeopardy that that involves. That includes freelancers, not just in the creative industries, but in other sectors where they are prevalent, which are as diverse as construction, professional services and agriculture. The Government need to give Amendment 287 serious consideration and, while doing so, think through how the interests of all the self-employed, not just freelancers, should be represented.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg, Lord Clancarty and, particularly, Lord Clement-Jones, for their valuable contributions and amendments in this group and for the thoughtful way they have introduced them. I am very grateful for their tireless advocacy on behalf of the freelance workforce, who so often find themselves on the margins of employment policy. I will speak in particular to Amendments 301 and 302, tabled the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, which I was happy to sign.

Amendment 301 introduces a new clause which, for the first time in statute, provides a clear and much-needed definition of a freelancer. This definition acknowledges the reality of modern working life, where individuals are often engaged on short-term contracts, operating through their own companies or via intermediaries and managing their own tax and national insurance affairs. These individuals, who are distinct from employees or workers as defined under current legislation, are nonetheless a vital and growing component of our labour market, as the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, has just pointed out. The amendment does not seek to blur the lines between employment statuses, but rather to draw a necessary and clarifying distinction that enables policy and legislation to recognise freelancers in their own right. The inclusion of the provision for the Secretary of State to issue guidance ensures that the definition can evolve with working practices and case law, and that is both sensible and future-proofed.

Amendment 302 builds on this by creating a duty—a statutory obligation—for relevant government departments to have due regard to the freelancer workforce when shaping new policy. Too often freelancers are treated as an afterthought, and they fall between the cracks of legislation designed for binary employment categories. This amendment seeks to correct that omission. It ensures that the realities of freelance working are considered proactively in policy design, not reactively after the damage has been done.

Furthermore, the amendment ensures that the freelance commissioner, a role established to advocate for and advise on matters affecting freelancers, is appropriately consulted in the policy-making process. That is a modest yet essential safeguard to ensure that expertise is brought to bear when policies may significantly affect freelance professionals, particularly in sectors such as the creative industries, technology and media, where freelancing is not the exception but the norm.

These are thoughtful and proportionate amendments. They do not create undue bureaucracy, nor do they entrench rigid definitions. They offer clarity, fairness, and recognition to a workforce that contributes enormously to our economy and cultural life, yet is often unprotected and unheard in legislative terms. These proposals are not about privileging one form of work over another. They are about ensuring that our legal and regulatory frameworks reflect the diversity of modern work. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and his cosignatories on bringing these matters before the Committee, and I urge the Government to give serious consideration to these amendments as practical and principled improvements to the Bill.

I will take this opportunity to speak more broadly regarding the wider group of amendments concerning the impact of this legislation on freelancers and the cultural and creative sectors. Amendment 285 proposes a temporary waiver for small and independent cultural organisations in financial hardship. This is a pragmatic and compassionate measure. We all support robust employment protections, but a one-size-fits-all rollout risks devastating unintended consequences: closures, lay-offs or the collapse of small institutions that are already on the financial brink. The idea of a grace period and progressive enforcement is a proportionate way of balancing worker protections with organisational survival.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Londesborough Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments just spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Carter of Haslemere, are clearly very important. I hope the Government will take them extremely seriously. I have three amendments in this rather strange group, which seems to be the dustbin for amendments broadly about the fair work agency but which have not found their way into a separate group through the degrouping process.

My Amendment 269 calls for some transparency about the advisory board which Clause 90 requires the Secretary of State to set up in connection with their enforcement functions. Under Clause 90, the Secretary of State decides on what matters the board should provide advice, but there are no provisions about what happens to that advice. The Secretary of State can ignore it and no one, importantly including Parliament, will be any the wiser. My amendment is modest, requiring a report setting out the advice given to the Secretary of State at least once a year. Importantly, that report would be laid before Parliament, which would be an additional tool allowing it to hold the Secretary of State accountable for the discharge of the huge new powers under the Bill. I am sure that the Minister supports effective parliamentary accountability, so if this amendment does not find favour, I invite her to set out how the Secretary of State will be held accountable by Parliament in relation to the enforcement functions.

My Amendments 270 and 279 return to one of our recurring themes on this Bill: its effect on small businesses. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, for adding his name to the amendments. Amendment 270 is directed at the labour market enforcement strategy that the Secretary of State is required to produce under Clause 91. My amendment merely requires a separate analysis of, and a strategy for, enforcement for small and micro businesses—that is, those with fewer than 50 employees. Enforcement really should not be one size fits all. What is reasonable to expect from a large corporation with a well-funded HR function is not the same as can reasonably be expected from a business with 10 employees.

I am not seeking to say that small businesses should not comply with employment legislation; I am trying to ensure that the circumstances and needs of smaller enterprises will be taken into account in the enforcement strategy. For example, the impact of heavy-handed use of the entry and seizure powers would be drastically different for a well-resourced organisation compared with a small organisation. In a small business, the burden of dealing with enforcement activity would almost certainly end up at the door of the business owner, who would inevitably then be distracted from running the business.

We have to remember that small and micro businesses account for the vast majority of businesses in the UK and are the backbone of the UK economy. We all in your Lordships’ House want to see growth in the economy, but—as the Minister will be aware—growth does not come from what Governments do, it comes from what businesses of all shapes and sizes do. Therefore, imposing onerous enforcement mechanisms and powers could threaten the ability of small businesses to operate and play their part in the success of our economy.

We need small businesses to thrive because they employ nearly half the private sector workforce in our country, and because small businesses are where large, successful businesses start; without the success of small businesses, we will not have businesses that grow to be large ones in due course. So my point is that enforcement needs to be sensitive to the circumstances of small businesses; that is all my amendment is seeking to achieve. I hope that the Minister can support that.

My final amendment, Amendment 279, is inspired by the same concerns about the impact of the new powers on small and micro businesses. Clause 141 creates a new set of offences for officers of corporate bodies and makes those officers personally liable for prosecution if they have consented to whatever action has broken the law or been negligent.

Again, we have to look at how this is likely to impact on small businesses. They are often family affairs. The directors are often the main entrepreneur, together with the entrepreneur’s spouse and maybe some representatives of the adjacent generations; outside directors are not common at the small end of the spectrum. Under this Bill, a small company will already be liable to be prosecuted for the full range of offences set out in the Bill. So what is gained in public policy terms by allowing the enforcement authorities to proceed against individuals as well in such cases?

Let us say that the directors include the business leader’s husband and business leader’s father, who founded the business. Such companies operate on informal lines, unlike the large corporations, which have legal teams and all sorts of compliance functions with adequate forms of documentation. It would be too easy for enforcement to be aimed at individuals just because they were directors of very small companies that did not see the need for highly formalised decision-making processes. That is not how small businesses actually operate in practice. They would probably be very soft targets for enforcement teams, especially those trying to earn their spurs by securing some convictions. My contention is that we should not let that happen.

My amendment takes small and micro businesses out of the scope of Clause 141 entirely. If the Government do not like that—and I suspect they will not like it—can the Minister explain what protections will be built into enforcement to ensure that prosecutions are aimed at the most egregious behaviour rather than at the most convenient targets?

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to two amendments in this group, 270 and 279, which are both under the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. I support and have added my name to both of them. I will start with Amendment 270, which addresses Clause 91 and calls—quite reasonably, in my view—for separate analysis and proposals for a labour market enforcement strategy for small and micro businesses.

As the noble Baroness pointed out, here we have another section of the Bill where the one-size-fits-all approach will be very difficult to enforce without running the risks and incurring the costs of applying the proverbial sledgehammer to crack nuts—the nuts in this case being the small and micro businesses with fewer than 50 staff.

Given the huge scope of this Bill, which has approaching 200 clauses, small businesses are very likely to have much higher levels of non-compliance—much of it inadvertent—compared with their medium-sized and larger counterparts. This is for two principal reasons. First, they simply do not have the in-house HR compliance or legal resource to cover all this legislation, and very often it will fall on the business owner or manager to keep up, while he or she struggles with all the other challenges of trying to run a business profitably and sustainably in the face of all sorts of macroeconomic and microeconomic headwinds.

Secondly, there are the disproportionate costs associated with being fully compliant that fall on small and micro enterprises. They simply do not have the budget or cashflow to spend on external advisers and employment lawyers who can advise them on how to navigate all the new clauses and conditions that run across the hundreds of pages of this Bill. As we have heard, a visit to a small or micro business from an enforcement officer, however well trained they are, will have a far greater and more unsettling impact on the owner and their staff than a visit to a medium-sized or large business.

As the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, pointed out, I note that the Government appear not to be planning to provide any material assistance to SMBs to help them understand and comply—or are they? I throw that question to the Minister. As we know, the impact assessment for the Bill rather shrugs its shoulders by admitting that SMBs will be disproportionately hit, in terms of costs and their time, and they are apparently just expected to suck it up. As the noble Baroness said, this is not to argue against an enforcement strategy per se, but it needs to be tailored and proportionate to the size of the business, specifically for micro and small companies.

On Amendment 279, it is for very similar reasons that I support this exemption for officers of micro and small businesses from the extension of liability in Clause 141. I support an exemption because these businesses typically do not have boards of directors or advisory groups, or non-exec chairs or governors; they tend to be managed by one or two principals who hold responsibility for pretty much everything to keep the business going, including finance, sales, marketing, customer engagement, product or service development, not to mention general HR which, as we all know, is going to get more far more complicated.

Finally, speaking from my own lived experience as an adviser to several small companies, and having run an SME myself for nearly 30 years, I say that we really must guard against deterring business owners and entrepreneurs from starting up and scaling businesses, and specifically from creating new jobs, often at high risk, without threatening them or, indeed, their officers with excessive and menacing levels of extended liability. I say this, mindful of the fact that the ONS reported last week that we had lost 109,000 payroll jobs in the space of one single month. It is not a great time to be spreading fear and uncertainty.