Wednesday 23rd July 2025
(1 year, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberEmployment Rights Act 2025 View all Employment Rights Act 2025 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 113-IV(b) Manuscript Amendment for Report (Supplementary to the Fourth Marshalled List) - (23 Jul 2025)
21:51 - Division on Amendment 154 - Ayes: 85 / Noes: 127 - Amendment 154 disagreed.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
I was just going to ask a question, as others did. As we are passing law, is it not the case that—
Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)
As it is quite late and we still have a lot of business to do, it is worth respectfully pointing out not just to the noble Baroness but to other noble Lords that the Companion is pretty clear about the rules of debate on Report. At 8.145 it states:
“On report no member may speak more than once to an amendment, except the mover of the amendment in reply or a member who has obtained leave of the House”.
We have a lot of business to go through. People have had the opportunity to state their case. Perhaps we should proceed with Front-Bench wind-ups.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)
The words that the noble Lord just said come from the Opposition Benches and do not reflect what we are intending by the Bill, or indeed these particular clauses.
I will first speak to government Amendments 156 to 158 in my name, which are minor but important technical amendments to Schedule 10. Amendment 156 makes a small correction to paragraph 36(6), replacing the phrase “that subsection” with a reference instead to “subsection (3)” of Section 15 of the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004. Amendment 157 ensures that Schedule 1 to the Immigration Act 2016 is repealed following the abolition of the Director of Labour Market Enforcement, and Amendment 158 removes specific reference to paragraphs 9 and 11 of Schedule 3 to the Immigration Act 2016. The purpose of these changes is to ensure that the provision functions as intended and provides legal clarity. They do not alter the policy or substance of the Bill in any way but ensure that the schedule functions as intended.
On Amendment 154 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Carter, the Government were elected on a manifesto pledge to deliver the plan to make work pay in full. This sets out that the new employment rights enforcement agency would have the power to bring civil proceedings to uphold compliance with employment law. This clause delivers that pledge.
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, referred to the precedent, and yes, the precedent that we are citing is the example of the Equality Act 2006, Sections 28 to 30 of which are the precedent for Clauses 113 to 115. Section 28 of the Equality Act enables the Equality and Human Rights Commission to assist an individual who is or may become party to legal proceedings. Section 30 of the Equality Act, which is the precedent for Clause 113, affords the EHRC the capacity to institute and intervene in legal proceedings, including for breach of EHRC rights, even though it is not a victim.
The noble Lord, Lord Carter, said there was not an example of where the EHRC had taken over a case. However, in the case of MS (Pakistan) v Secretary of State for the Home Department, the EHRC in fact substituted itself once the original appellant withdrew from the proceedings. This was a substitution, with the consent of the Supreme Court, by the EHRC in the same way that the fair work agency could substitute itself in place of a worker without their consent.
The EHRC uses Section 30 strategically to clarify the law and act where there are egregious breaches. We envisage that the fair work agency, rather than the Secretary of State as such, will use this power in Clause 113 similarly. Noble Lords have misrepresented what is intended by this clause. It is intended to address some of the worst employment practices that current regulations do not adequately cover. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Marks, that there are of course cases where individuals or groups of workers are unable or reluctant to take a case, but that does not necessarily mean that the case should not be taken, because there are wider issues at stake. For example, the fair work agency could use the power to clarify entitlement to holiday pay where enforcement officers do not have enough information to confidently issue a notice of underpayment, or the fair work agency could exercise the power to clarify the employment status of a group of individuals. Currently, employers may misclassify workers as self-employed to get out of giving them the rights that they are entitled to. Without this power, the fair work agency has no ability to challenge such claims.
To give a specific example on the possible application of Clause 113, the Director of Labour Market Enforcement has flagged endemic bad practice in the hand car wash sector. A particular challenge in this sector is misclassification of workers, which stymies HMRC’s efforts to enforce the minimum wage. Currently, if a hand car wash claims that its workers are self-employed, HMRC has no means to test this in the courts. It must go through the full notice of underpayment process and wait for the employer to appeal against the notice of underpayment. This can lead to nugatory work if the appeal is upheld and otherwise delay workers getting their due rights. This is a gap in the existing system of state enforcement, which this power will go some way to remedy.
Just as the current system works, the fair work agency will take a whole-employer approach to enforcement. This has the advantages of a resolution for more workers than individual cases against the employer. But in such circumstances, where the fair work agency may be taking action for hundreds or thousands of workers, it is simply not practical to get consent from every individual concerned. As a strategic approach, this power will be used when acting in workers’ best interests to clarify the law. As with the EHRC’s powers under the Equality Act, the fair work agency will not need the consent of each individual concerned to take on cases. The fair work agency will therefore be able to decide when to seek clear, neutral and authoritative guidance from a tribunal on the application of employment legislation.
As we know, in the worst cases of serious exploitation, workers may be reluctant to give their consent due to fear of retribution from the employer. The noble Lord, Lord Goddard, was quite right to say that there are circumstances in which we have the responsibility to look after the individuals who are suffering at the hands of rogue employers and feel powerless in those circumstances. We know that many migrant workers with legal rights to work in the UK, particularly low- paid workers, are reluctant or unable to enforce their employment rights. These workers have understandable concerns, including fear of retaliation, lack of awareness or language barriers. For legal migrants, employment is their prerogative and, for those workers, there are wider implications in challenging an employer that could bring about repercussions for their employment or potentially impact on their visa. We believe that requiring consent from workers would make it easier for employers to attribute blame to individual employees, and they would suffer as a result.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
I am going to carry on. When exercising this power—
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, we have had advice already about what the Companion says on this. The noble Lord has spoken once.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
I think that the Companion overrides anything that I have to say.
When exercising this power, the fair work agency will of course act in accordance with the rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, including Article 8, and comply with data protection legislation. In doing so, it must act in accordance with the law and for a legitimate purpose.
The noble Lord, Lord Marks, raised the issue of anonymity. In appropriate cases, the fair work agency will consider applying under Rule 49 of the Employment Tribunal Procedure Rules 2024. Rule 49 allows the tribunal to restrict public disclosure of aspects of the proceedings. That means that workers’ names can be kept from the public domain—
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The point that we were making is that this is about test cases, which, as we know, is a frequent way of clarifying legislation, rather than primary legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Marks, raised the issue of anonymity. In appropriate cases, the fair work agency will consider applying under Rule 49 of the Employment Tribunal Procedure Rules 2024. Rule 49 allows the tribunal to restrict public disclosure of aspects of the proceedings. That means that workers’ names can be kept from the public domain to protect their anonymity and to protect them from any reporting in the media, where it is necessary to do so in the interest of justice or to protect their convention rights. When deciding whether to give an order, the tribunal must give weight to the principles of open justice and the convention’s right to freedom of expression. The tribunal can do this on its own initiative, or the fair work agency can apply for such an order. The fair work agency must also comply with convention rights and data protection legislation, ensuring appropriate protections for individuals and fairness of proceedings.
I understand noble Lords’ interest in how this power will operate and confirm to the House that the Government will publish guidance on how the fair work agency will exercise this power in practice. We will develop detailed guidance, following deep and extensive engagement with social partners and the fair work agency’s advisory board. It will then be for the fair work agency, acting within this guidance, to determine which cases it brings to the tribunal. That will ensure that this power supports those who play by the rules. This approach enables the fair work agency to protect workers’ rights and to tackle injustice and abuse against legitimate workers.
This clause presents an opportunity to make a genuine difference in tackling the scourge of labour exploitation in the UK. Unchecked labour exploitation is unfair on the individuals who are being exploited. It is unfair on the majority of employers, who want to do right by their staff, and it is unfair on workers who are denied jobs by employers exploiting loopholes. The new power will complement the existing powers of the fair work agency, such as the powers to issue notices of underpayment, while enabling the fair work agency to act where these powers cannot be accessed. The fair work agency will exist to end labour exploitation and create a fair and level playing field for employers and for workers. A fair work agency with any less power to act for these most vulnerable would be an unacceptable failure for workers’ rights.
To the noble Lord, Lord Carter, I remain open to discussing how best to deliver this power and to ensure that it is appropriately safeguarded. However, I reiterate that this power is neither novel nor unprecedented and that it delivers a manifesto commitment. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 154.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, I am sorry to get up again, but would the Minister like to say something about adverse costs orders against workers?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, when we debated this in Committee, we made it clear that there would not be any cost to workers. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, suggested that the worker would be liable to costs where they had not consented to the Secretary of State taking a case on their behalf. Let me be clear that the worker will not be liable for the costs in these circumstances.
Lord Carter of Haslemere (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful for all the powerful interventions we have heard this evening from very eminent speakers indeed, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, the noble Lords, Lord Murray and Lord Pannick, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Fox, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Falkner. Some really powerful points have been made around the importance of personal autonomy, the unworkability of the clause in relation to witness summonses and adverse witness results, and a duty to consult, which was a powerful point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.
The noble Lord, Lord Marks, referred to the fact that the worker might not want to bring proceedings and therefore would be happy for the Secretary of State to do so in his or her place. That misses the point, which is that the worker might object to legal proceedings being brought in their name and might not give their consent. That is, for me, fundamental in this whole clause.
I believe that this is legally unprecedented—we can have further discussions about that. I think it is unworkable. I think it is completely unnecessary, given that the Secretary of State can support a worker to defend proceedings themselves. I read the manifesto and all I saw was “make work pay”. Those three words cover a multitude of sins. There was no mention of a power to bring proceedings on behalf of a worker—I read it very carefully. I feel that there has been enough power and passion in this debate to warrant seeking the opinion of the House, which I now do.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment corrects an incorrect cross-reference.
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)
My Lords, we now move to consider the employment tribunal system. I shall speak first to Amendments 158A and 158B. The Government are extending the time limit for individuals to bring claims to an employment tribunal, but if that is the case, and if, as the Government have repeatedly said, they value early conciliation and the vital role that ACAS plays in resolving disputes before they reach litigation, then surely the same principle must apply to the conciliation period itself. Extending the early conciliation period from six weeks to three months would provide claimants and employers alike with more breathing space to resolve matters amicably, reducing the burden on the tribunal system and promoting quicker, less adversarial outcomes.
I will also speak to Amendments 180 and 186. I will not repeat the arguments that I and many noble Lords across this House have already made about the state of the employment tribunal system, but let us be clear: the situation is now dire. We have spoken to a range of people involved in the system and hear the same message: employment tribunals are in disarray, with claimants waiting for up to two years for their cases to be heard. We believe that justice delayed is justice denied.
The Government say they are investing in tribunals, pledging to hire more judges and providing additional funding, so I hope the Minister will be able to answer these questions. First, how many new judges have been appointed? Secondly, what is the scale of the funding and how will it be allocated? Thirdly, will the Government also commit to hiring more administrative staff to ease the backlog? If so, how many? Until we have clear, credible answers to these questions, we believe it is simply irresponsible to bring forward clauses in this Bill that will place even greater strain on a system that is already buckling under pressure. I just hope that the Minister will have answers to these and other questions.
I will also refer to Amendments 186 to 188. We believe that there is this difficulty with the existing system and we have already seen the Government push back implementation of parts of this legislation to 2027. I do not know whether this is because they have at last had a moment of clarity and realised just how damaging some of these measures could be in practice. We now have an amendment asking to delay further until 2029. Frankly, this is not just reasonable; we believe it is necessary. A four-year delay might be the bare minimum to avoid the disasters which would otherwise be presented by this legislation.
Let us not pretend this delay is some kind of political foot-dragging on the part of the Government. To seek to delay implementation until 2027 of what was said to be a vital Bill is an admission that this legislation is deeply flawed and that rushing it through risks wreaking havoc on businesses, workers and the tribunal system alike. What is more, with the Government and the unions now seeming less like allies and more like wary rivals, this delay might be something the Government are willing to accept. I beg to move.
Lord Katz (Lab)
I am pleased to have a contrast in terms of debate length. It is good to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. I will speak to this quite large group of amendments and, for the sake of brevity, try to cover as much ground as I can in time.
On Amendments 180 and 186. We recognise the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, over the employment tribunal system. I reassure noble Lords that we have heard the concerns of your Lordships’ House, the other place, and broader stakeholders representing employers and employees, and we are already acting. This includes recruiting more judges and legal caseworkers, and providing significant additional funding to ACAS for 2025-26. ACAS’s annual report shows that, of the approximately 125,000 early conciliation notifications received by it, approximately only 33% proceeded to employment tribunal claims.
I can try to answer some of the direct questions from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on the increased resources for the system. On new judges, 50 new fee-paid part-time employment judges were appointed in 2024-25 and a further three recruitment exercises to increase capacity are being undertaken in 2025 and 2026. I will reflect on Hansard and, if there are other questions on this I have not covered, I will of course write to the noble Lord.
As was pointed out earlier in the debate, we are also considering other areas such as the role the expanded fair work agency could play, where this would reduce the need for costly and lengthy tribunal claims. We are happy to receive further constructive suggestions from noble Lords on their ideas for reform, but we are of the view that it would be disproportionate to make the vital improvements to workers’ rights contained in this Bill dependent on the kind of review the Opposition propose.
Amendments 158A and 158B were also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. The suggestion about increasing the time for early conciliation is indeed constructive. As we have said previously on a number of occasions, we are engaging with businesses and unions to consider the ways to address growing demand and improve the efficiency of the employment tribunal system. Part of this work involves looking at how we can improve the already good work that ACAS is doing to help parties reach mutually agreed outcomes without the need for stressful and expensive litigation.
The six-week early conciliation period takes place prior to a claim being brought to the employment tribunal and provides an opportunity for employers and employees to try to reach an agreement without having to go to a tribunal. Increasing the time for early conciliation could provide some benefits to parties, but we need more time to consider how this would interact with other reforms and identify potential unintended consequences. Changes to the period of early conciliation can be made using secondary legislation and therefore it is not necessary to use primary legislation for this purpose. Perhaps the compromise I might suggest is that we will be happy to reflect on the suggestion that has been made as part of our wider work, and I thank the noble Lords and other colleagues for their amendments.
I turn next to Amendment 185, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. The Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023 unduly restricts the right to strike and undermines good industrial relations. It has proven to be ineffective and has contributed, one might argue, to industrial unrest. It is worth pointing out again, as we have already heard this evening, that no employer has ever issued a work notice under the Act and not a single day of strike action has been prevented since it was introduced. Indeed, reflecting on Questions earlier today, I repeat that we lost a record number of days to strike action in 2022 and 2023—the highest number since 1989, if I recall correctly. That Act definitely did not prevent more industrial action taking place.
Rather, we believe negotiation and co-operation are better ways to ensure that essential services continue during strikes, while respecting workers’ rights. For these reasons, we are committed to removing this legislation as soon as possible. Our commitment to repeal the legislation has been trailed for over a year. We made the commitment to make work pay, it was reiterated in our manifesto, and we announced it again in August last year, so it will not come as a surprise to any employer. As I said, in any event, employers are not using the legislation anyway.
Amendments 187, 189, 190 and 191 were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley—he is not in his place—and the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. We have always said that we would engage and consult comprehensively on implementation to ensure that strengthened rights, protections and entitlements work for all. We want employers, workers, trade unions and others to have the time and space to work through the details of each measure with us.
On Amendments 187 and 189, I remind noble Lords that our road map, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, referred to, sets out our plans for consulting on key provisions in Part 1 and Part 4 this autumn and into early 2026. We will then publish our response to each consultation, in line with published guidance. This will include a summary of responses received and a breakdown of the type of respondent. This reflects what we have already done in published consultation responses.
Through all these consultations, we will continue to engage with SMEs to ensure that their vital perspectives are fed into policy development, and we will provide sufficient support to prepare for these reforms. We value the constructive feedback and insights that such businesses and organisations give, and we will continue to prioritise engagement moving forward.
On Amendment 190, I remind noble Lords that, since 2016, there have been 33 reports and strategies on the effectiveness of labour market enforcement. I also remind noble Lords that the single enforcement body, regardless of the name, was a policy pursued by both the Opposition and the Liberal Democrats. Indeed, I believe that the proposal, under different titles, was in all three manifestos at the general election. So, whereas previous Governments have dithered and delayed in taking action, we are taking action to tackle the fragmented and ineffective enforcement system by bringing it all under one roof in the fair work agency.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I will just add a few words to my noble friend’s contribution. This little item that we are discussing came out of a debate we had in Committee when we established that there was a link between the small boats with what we might call illegal immigrants coming across the channel and the delivery vehicles, mostly bicycles with trailers and mostly in London, but in other places as well. There was strong evidence that the riders do not have permission to work in this country and have probably not passed any of the tests necessary for what they are doing. We all know what the problem is with these bicycles and trailers going around London: they seem to forget that there are things such as traffic lights and rules about keeping to the left.
Ministers were sympathetic, and we had a very useful meeting with the Ministers, for which I thank them. The real problem is that once one of these drivers has a job at one of the companies my noble friend mentioned, they can contact their brothers, sisters and cousins on the continent and say, “Why don’t you come across too? You can share the job”, which sounds fine. They spend the money and come across the channel, hopefully still safe and alive.
Once two of them are trying to do the same job as if one person, it gets very difficult. There is no easy solution to this, apart from—we had a very useful meeting with the Minister on this—adding the word “substitution” to many of the issues that noble Lords in the creative sector spoke about so well earlier. They are often substituting for their brothers and cousins but are still working without the necessary insurance, certification or anything else. I hope that when my noble friend the Minister comes to respond, she will look favourably on the idea of having a wider interpretation of the type of work we are talking about. Apart from people not paying their tax and everything else, hopefully there are not going be too many road accidents, but at the moment it is a little dubious.
I am grateful to other noble Lords who have listened to something that is 100 miles away from creative, but it is just as important. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)
My Lords, I do not believe that for a moment.
This has been such an important debate. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, and my fellow lawyer—not solicitor—the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for what has certainly been a long-standing advocacy on behalf of freelance workers. As my noble friend Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay said, with all his experience as a Minister, there is no doubt that freelancers play a vital role in our economy and their interests deserve proper attention.
We on these Benches have also made the case that this issue is likely to become more urgent after the passage of the Bill. We cannot avoid the suspicion that the Bill is going to drive more workers into at least considering turning freelance. Time will tell, but as the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, pointed out, the number could rise towards 3 million freelance workers.
We are all very grateful indeed to the Minister for organising an important meeting on this subject, because it was most useful. We welcome the Government’s intention to create a freelance champion, announced last month as part of the creative industries sector plan. That may be half a loaf, but it is a welcome enough commitment. We recognise the intent behind the amendment to establish a freelance commissioner, but at the moment, in the light of the assurances given by the Minister, we feel that the Government should have the benefit of the doubt for now, not least because we are not totally persuaded that the creation of another public body is the only solution.
What freelancers certainly need is clarity, simplicity and proportionate support. If the new champion can deliver that, all well and good. But we remain of the opinion, as came across in some of the contributions we had in Committee and just now, that socialists despise the very concept of freelancing. “How dare workers choose to avoid our elaborate structures?”, some of them say. So we will be watching with a very keen eye to see how this proceeds, particularly in the light of the speeches we just heard from the noble Lords, Lord Hendy and Lord Berkeley.
As we salute the expertise of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, on the creative arts, I take this opportunity to assure him that if he is unsatisfied that the Government’s measures adequately address the issues that have been raised, we will certainly be on his side. So I encourage him to remain vigilant and to keep the Government’s feet to the fire. In the meantime, we look forward with great interest to what the Minister will say in response to the many questions that have been raised in this debate, in particular about the urgency of this problem.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. We have indeed had a very good debate, which once again has identified the significant contribution that the creative and cultural sector makes to our industries and our lives. The Government share your Lordships’ passion for supporting the creative and cultural sectors, and we previously spelled out in detail the significant work we are already doing in this area.
The creative industries and cultural sectors are a distinct part of the wider UK workforce. They have a significantly higher proportion of self-employed individuals, reflecting the sector’s entrepreneurial and freelance nature, which is one of the points that has been well made this evening. In the latest published data, as of 2023, there were 2.4 million filled jobs in the creative industries and 666,000 filled jobs in the cultural sector. Of these jobs, 49.6% in the cultural sector were self-employed, and 27.9% in the creative industries, compared with 14% of UK jobs overall. This reiterates the point that noble Lords have made about the significance of freelancers in the cultural and creative sectors. This flexibility not only drives innovation but supports the more project-driven nature of the creative industries. However, we also know that freelancers’ creative careers, while offering a more flexible and autonomous way of working, can also be precarious and come with lower job security.
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)
My Lords, this has been a very important debate about employment status. I thank my noble friend Lord Moynihan of Chelsea for his important and thoughtful contribution to the debate. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg, Lord Londesborough and Lord Clement-Jones, for their extremely important contributions.
As my noble friend Lord Moynihan rightly pointed out, the Government in their make work pay document have committed to consulting on a simpler employment framework—one that distinguishes clearly between workers and the genuinely self-employed. However, the reality is that platform workers and the innovative businesses that rely on them remain in the dark. There is no detail, no timeline and no clarity as to when or indeed whether these major reforms to employment status will materialise.
In the meantime, uncertainty reigns, and that uncertainty is not without cost. It risks holding back investment, stifling expansion and deterring new entrants into the UK market. We now hear so often from the Government about making the UK the best place in the world to do business, but a failure to provide clarity on the future of employment status, particularly in the growing platform economy, sends the opposite signal. The Government would therefore do well to heed my noble friend’s intervention. If they are serious about supporting flexibility, entrepreneurship and modern ways of working, then they have got to provide both the sector and the self-employed with confidence and clarity on what exactly lies ahead.
Lord Katz (Lab)
My Lords, I wish I had also brought my white hanky to the debate, but sadly I do not have that cop-out. This been a short but focused and interesting debate. I will begin with Amendments 177 and 179, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg. The Government are well aware of the importance of accurate occupational categorisation, especially for those in culturally important occupations, and the noble Lord and I have separately discussed this issue and the complexities around it.
More specifically, we understand that some stakeholders feel the four-digit standard occupational classification—SOC—system is not detailed enough for their needs. To address this, in 2023 the ONS published an extended six-digit system that includes more accurate categories for groups like those mentioned by the noble Lord in his amendments. In addition to this, the ONS is now beginning work on the next update to the SOC system, which will be published in 2030.
I am afraid that I do not have some of the details on disaggregation, the levels of qualifications and so on that the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, asked about, but I will undertake to write to him with more details. However, I would be very happy to facilitate contact between the noble Lord and the ONS team that is responsible for this work. He has demonstrated great interest and no little expertise in this subject area, and I am sure that they would appreciate his views and detailed analysis on the system, how it could be improved and how it could better reflect the complex ecosystem of craftspeople and other creative workers.
I turn to Amendment 167, again tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, as well as Amendments 183 and 184A, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Moynihan, respectively. I hope that the noble Lords are reassured from the debate on the previous group that the Government take the commitment to tackling pressing issues with the existing employment status framework very seriously—and from the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I think that is the case.
As the noble Lords, Lord Moynihan and Lord Clement-Jones, said, consultation in the fullest sense is imperative on this issue. It will allow us to receive and consider the widest range of views and engage fully with relevant stakeholders, including those mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, in his amendment. Consulting on employment status was a commitment in the plan to make work pay, and as my noble friend Lady Jones outlined to your Lordships’ House in the debate on the previous group, today we are confirming that we will publish a consultation on this by the end of the year. As the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, we will risk undermining the value of this work if we introduce new definitions without prior consultation.
The noble Lord also mentioned requiring an impact assessment of any legislative proposals brought forward as a result of this consultation. I can reassure your Lordships’ House that, in keeping with our better regulation requirements, we will produce impact assessments alongside any such legislation.
I hope this assures noble Lords that the Government are committed to consulting on employment status and are doing so with the care, focus and full engagement that this important issue requires. On this basis, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, to withdraw Amendment 167.
Lord Freyberg (CB)
My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this thoughtful and wide-ranging debate. In particular, I welcome the announcement of the employment status consultation, which will be very helpful in looking at this matter in the round. I also am very grateful to the Minister for his offer to put me in touch with the ONS; I would be delighted to accept that and take it up at a later point. Given the lateness of the hour, I will not comment further. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, there is really very little to say, but obviously I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf of Dulwich, for bringing forward this very thoughtful and necessary amendment. She is right that apprenticeships represent one of the most important pathways into skilled employment and a vital investment in our nation’s future workforce. I agreed with everything that the noble Baronesses, Lady Wolf and Lady Garden, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said, and I wish the noble Lord well. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, gets the reassurance that she needs and, if she does not, she should probably test the opinion of the House.
Lord Leong (Lab)
Good try.
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. On behalf of these Benches, I wish the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, all the best for his forthcoming retirement, which is not today; it will be on 31 August. We wish him well and he will definitely be sorely missed in this House.
I will address the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf of Dulwich. Amendment 181 proposes to insert a provision in the Bill to require that the Government give due consideration to the impacts on apprenticeships during consultation. Amendment 182 proposes a review process specifically on the impact on apprenticeships. Although these amendments rightly raise the importance of apprenticeships, they effectively duplicate what we are, and will already be, doing.
We know that our country’s greatest asset is its people, and apprenticeships are one of the most powerful ways, as stated by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, that we can invest in that potential. They open doors, build confidence and provide a ladder of opportunity for those who might otherwise be left behind. Whether it is a young person taking their first step into the world of work or someone retraining for a new career, apprenticeships offer a route to success that is both practical and aspirational.
We are transforming the apprenticeship levy into a new growth and skills levy, giving learners and employers more flexibility. This will fund shorter apprenticeships and open up more tailored, responsive training options compared with the current system, where apprenticeships must run for at least 12 months. When we launch the consultations as described in the road map, every effort will be made to ensure that the consultations reach a wide audience. The Government are keen to hear from employers of all sizes and their representative organisations, as well as workers and their representative bodies, in order to understand the distinct perspective of these different stakeholders. They will play a crucial role in policy development. In developing options in our consultations, the Government will consider their potential impacts. The options analysts will, as is standard, consider the impacts on the labour market for different groups of workers and micro, small and medium businesses.
In addition, the road map shows that full implementation of the Bill will take years, so seeking to publish a review too early would prevent meaningful assessment of its effects, especially on young people.
The Government value apprenticeship, as I said earlier, and apprentices. We want to continue to engage with businesses that offer apprenticeship and encourage their contributions to forthcoming consultations, including on employment status, under the Bill. We will be happy to continue to engage with and meet the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, to that end, and to listen to all young people and apprentices themselves.
These amendments are unnecessary and duplicative. Supporting young people and small businesses will already be at the forefront of our minds as we work to implement our reforms. I therefore respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw Amendment 181.
Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his words and definitely accept the invitation to continue to talk to the Government about this issue and about how we might improve the current legal framework so that it encourages apprenticeships in a much more positive way. I totally accept that the Government are doing a large number of consultations already, and I am delighted to know that in that context the Minister thinks that our amendments are unnecessary, since that would imply that they are definitely going to look at apprenticeships. On that basis, with thanks, and looking at the time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for tabling Amendment 184B.
We recognise that workplace temperatures are changing, especially as the climate changes. We are committed to ensuring that workplaces are safe in the modern world, and we committed in Next Steps to Make Work Pay to look at how to modernise health and safety guidance for extreme temperatures.
The Health and Safety Executive is Britain’s national regulator for workplace health and safety. It is dedicated to protecting people and places, and helping people lead safer and healthier lives. To deliver on our commitment, the HSE is reviewing the approved code of practice for the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 to ensure it is fit for purpose for a modern workforce. This includes monitoring emerging evidence around the impact of extreme temperatures on workplaces. The HSE will bring forward detailed proposals on workplace temperature in due course and there will be an opportunity to comment, which I encourage the noble Baroness and others to respond to.
I assure the noble Baroness that the workplace regulations currently require that, during working hours, the temperature in all workplaces inside buildings should be reasonable. All employers must make a suitable assessment of the risk to employees and take action where necessary. This includes assessing the risk from heat stress. The Environment Agency has also issued guidance on how employers can plan for climate change impacts to their sites of work and integrate climate change adaption into their management systems. Nevertheless, I hope this broad scope of work, which is currently under way, provides the noble Baroness with the reassurance that this is a matter that we already recognise as important, and that we are actively taking steps to address the impact of increasing temperatures on health and safety at work.
Before we conclude this group, my noble friends Lord Leong and Lord Katz and I would like to thank your Lordships’ House for the extensive and energetic debates that we have had throughout Report, as well as its continued engagement and scrutiny. Indeed, we have held over 50 engagements with noble Lords since the Bill came here from the other place, excluding the debates here in the Chamber.
This Bill will benefit 15 million people—half of the UK workforce. We were elected with a manifesto commitment to make work pay, and the Bill is a vital step in delivering that commitment. With that, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, to withdraw Amendment 184B.
Lord Katz (Lab)
My Lords, with thanks to the clerks, the doorkeepers and all the staff of the House for staying so late, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.