Denial of Banking Services: UK Defence Sector

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in reforming environmental, social, and governance rules to ensure that they are not used by financial institutions to deny banking services, including loans, to the UK defence sector.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have been clear that there is nothing contradictory between ESG considerations and defence. No company should ever be denied access to financial services solely on the basis that they work in the defence sector. The Government are working closely with the defence sector and financial services to identify the extent of this issue, to reduce barriers to essential banking services and to support a resilient defence industry.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer, and somewhat reassured. However, there is still evidence—plenty, in fact—of the threat of debanking faced by SMEs in this sector because of an absurdly overzealous interpretation of ESG considerations. The Government’s defence commitments are welcome, but private capital will of course be necessary to deliver those. Can the Government commit now to bringing ESG rating agencies within the regulatory perimeter, which will force greater transparency? Will they also take a leading role in underlining the desirability of investment in defence and national security, such as by using the National Wealth Fund and encouraging local government pension funds and other public investment vehicles to allocate funds to the sector? While they are at it, can they perhaps also remind the banks that defending the nation is profoundly ethical?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Question, and I am happy to say that to all three of his supplementary questions the answer is yes. I agree with a lot of what he says. Access to finance is a significant issue for defence SMEs, and as a result it will be one of the key considerations for the forthcoming defence industrial strategy. It is not entirely clear-cut that all those access to finance issues are a result of ESG considerations; there are many more, and it is quite a complex picture. As for the noble Lord’s three questions, we recognise that the ESG market has developed quickly and without formal oversight, leading to some stakeholders raising significant concerns. To address those concerns, the Government will lay secondary legislation later this year to bring ESG ratings providers into regulation so that they are subject to rules set by the FCA. We have also set defence as one of the priority sectors that we want the National Wealth Fund to invest in—I think that was the noble Lord’s second question. Finally, we are working closely with the banking sector to make sure that it understands the importance of the defence sector to the economy.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, apart from ESG questions, there are wider questions about investment in defence companies. I declare an interest as an academic. Obviously, often it is students, and some of my colleagues as academics, who may think that the defence sector is not suitable to invest in, just as they are not keen to invest in tobacco or oil. What can His Majesty’s Government do to help launch the national conversation that the strategic defence review says we need to help people, not just the banks but other investors, understand that we need to work with defence companies, because the defence of the realm is the most important duty of the state?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I was not quite sure where the noble Baroness’s question was going, but I definitely agree with where it ended up. The Government have made it absolutely clear that we consider defence an ethical investment. We do not see a conflict between sustainable investment and investment in our world-leading defence sector. At the end of the day, it is not for the Government to tell investors what they can and cannot invest in, but at a time of increasing geopolitical instability, supporting the defence sector has never been more critical.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I may ask a supplementary to the excellent Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, based on the experience of an entrepreneur and inward investor who plans to build a much-needed factory in the United Kingdom to manufacture weapons-grade ammunition and who has been refused access to banking facilities, because of the defence nature of his proposal, by one of our leading banks. As the strategic defence review makes clear, one criterion for success over the next few years will lie in the number, scale and diversity of defence and dual-use technology companies in the UK. The review also emphasises the need for a whole-of-society approach to defence. With that in mind, does the Minister agree that we must ensure that banking facilities are more readily available beyond the historic primes to defence companies, particularly those which aspire to be, or are, suppliers to the UK Government, and that our procurement should support SMEs to do just that?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his question, and I agree with everything he said. The Government have been clear that no company should ever be denied access to financial services solely on the basis that they work in the defence sector, and the banking sector should never take a blanket approach to any one sector. I very much recognise the story that my noble friend tells, and that SMEs face unique challenges working in the defence sector, compared with larger, more established suppliers, including in accessing financial services, as the noble Lord said in his original Question. As my noble friend said, they face difficulties opening bank accounts and an increased risk of sudden bank account closure, as well as higher costs of borrowing and access to capital, and they often face a higher compliance burden. That is why we have set out that supporting and unlocking the full potential of SMEs will be a key consideration of the forthcoming defence industrial strategy.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, it sounds as though the Government are well aware that this is a fairly widespread practice, particularly among the larger lending banks. What advice have they therefore given to the banks about defining what the defence sector is? The defence sector, of course, through its supply chains, affects the vast bulk of British industry, so it is important that they define it in a sensible way.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I do not think any specific guidance has been given in the way that the noble Lord asks, but the most important thing to say here is that the banking sector should never take a blanket approach to any one sector. Of course, the decision as to what banking services to offer is ultimately a commercial decision but, as I said, banks should not take a blanket approach and they should make sure that decisions are taken on a case-by-case basis. The Government are actively engaging with banks to ensure that they understand the importance of the defence sector. The FCA has worked to understand why banks might close or reject accounts, and where it has found areas where firms need to improve customer outcomes, the Government expect them to consider the FCA’s findings and take them very seriously.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is this another case of a regulator letting the British public down? Should we not press the regulators to do the job that they are supposed to do, and if they do not do it, remove them?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

No, I disagree with my noble friend on that point. As I said before, the ESG market has developed quickly and without formal oversight, so it is the responsibility of government to make sure that that sector is brought under the scope of regulation. As I have said, we will lay secondary legislation later this year to bring ESG ratings providers into regulation so that they will be subject to the rules set by the FCA. Once that legislation is passed, the FCA will consult on regulatory requirements for ESG ratings providers.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has said that it is not for the Government to tell banks to whom they should lend and in what they should invest, but it seems to me that the banks, particularly the large banks, are never slow to beg for public money when they get themselves into trouble. Should the Government not make it clear to those banks that they have a moral obligation to help to defend the public on whose money they depend in times of difficulty?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I agree very much with what the noble and gallant Lord says. The Government have made it very clear that we consider defence an ethical investment. We do not see a conflict between sustainable investment and investment in our world-leading defence sector.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, defence is a vital requirement of our nation; I think we are all agreed on that. There have been many bad examples, which is why we are debating this today. Does the Minister agree that it is preposterous, unpatriotic and concerning that investment in our defence sector—for example, by certain pension funds or others prioritising ethical investment—should be actively discouraged by those purporting to favour a sustainable approach to investment? This needs to change.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I agree with the noble Baroness. As I said previously, the Government have made it very clear that we consider defence an ethical investment. We do not see a conflict between sustainable investment and investment in our world-leading defence sector, and at a time of increasing geopolitical instability, supporting the defence sector has never been more critical.