Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Lord and pay tribute to the fact that he has clearly identified some of the issues to which I will refer briefly here at Second Reading but which we will need to look at in Committee. The noble Lord did so very ably and helpfully. I thought that my noble friend the Minister set out the Bill very clearly, which is very helpful to the House. I understand that he is moving on to new ministerial responsibilities, so perhaps I may be the first to say that I know—having had the privilege of knowing my noble friend over many years since we first entered another place together—that his knowledge, experience, expertise and wise judgment on health matters is highly respected and much esteemed throughout the sector. His guiding hand will be much missed but we extend enormous thanks to him for all that he has done not only at the Department of Health but prior to that at the Care Quality Commission.

I draw attention to my interests in the register, and in particular as an adviser to MAP BioPharma—although the company is not directly affected by the provisions of the Bill.

In another place this Bill was referred to as a technical Bill. That is probably not an accurate description. It extends the powers of Ministers and gives them the ability to secure a payment under the statutory scheme which they did not feel they were able to do. It gives Ministers greater powers to control the prices of unbranded generic medicines which they did not have and it gives them a greater power to require information from suppliers. So there is a significant threefold extension of the powers of Ministers.

I completely understand and accept the reasons for the Bill. Ministers were right to bring it forward. There has clearly been a transfer that one might uncharitably describe as gaming between the voluntary and the statutory scheme—more politely it would be called arbitrage between the two—since there are suppliers of medicines, particularly in the hospital sector, that discount their list prices to those purchasers. Therefore, a statutory scheme that simply consists of a cut to the list price does not necessarily have any effect on their prices. So it does not have the intention that the voluntary scheme has. The Bill, quite rightly, closes a potential gap in control of the supply of generics by those companies that are also members of the voluntary scheme.

The Bill also extends information supplied by companies for dispensing and it might be useful in all of those to have a little bit of history, if I may detain your Lordships on that. I remember that before 2010, when I was shadow Secretary of State for Health, we were very clear that what we wanted to do as a potential incoming Government was to give stability to the industry and to that effect we said that we would not change the then PPRS before the renewal in 2014. But we were equally clear that when we got to the new PPRS in 2014, it needed to change and that, as it stood, its objectives were no longer being satisfactorily met. It gave businesses freedom for pricing medicines at introduction—and we should be well aware of the relative importance of this. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, referred to the relatively small size of the UK pharmaceuticals market, with about 3% of the international marketplace for pharmaceuticals, but the UK list price plays a much larger part in reference pricing internationally, with something like 25% of the total pricing effect. So it is very important to the industry to have that freedom of pricing.

However, the effect of the ability to price at the list price is that one has a NICE health technology assessment and evaluation with a threshold applied, which still leads frequently to NICE saying no to medicines. The net effect is that we have a licensed and effective medicine available to patients—but at the list price NICE says no and patients lose out. In our view, back then, this was an entirely unsatisfactory position. It seemed to us that, when an effective medicine is available to patients, it should be available to clinicians and patients through the NHS, and between the Government and the industry a mechanism should be established to ensure that a fair price is paid for the medicine. The patient should get the drug, the industry should get a fair price and the NHS should pay only what is necessary to achieve that.

The lack of access in the short run, as your Lordships will recall, is why we established the Cancer Drugs Fund, after Mike Richards’ report on the relative access in different countries in Europe to medicines demonstrated a significant shortfall in access in this country to cancer medicines in particular. But the intention always was—and I reiterate this, because it is frequently misrepresented—for the Cancer Drugs Fund to end at the beginning of 2014, because the new pharmaceutical price regulation scheme was intended to achieve the access benefit that the Cancer Drugs Fund was achieving in the short run. The fund did not overspend up to 2014; it was retained beyond 2014 and it then overspent, but that was not its original intention. So I do not accept the criticism of the Cancer Drugs Fund.

However, the PPRS negotiation for 2014 did not deliver the changes that were intended. It delivered budget control to the Treasury, freedom of pricing and introduction for the industry and a degree of rate of return reassurance to the industry. So to that extent, the taxpayer was well represented, the NHS may say that it was quite well represented and the industry was well represented—but I am not sure that patients were. What we need is a PPRS that serves patients at least as well as it serves the NHS.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

This is a very interesting exposition, but could the noble Lord clarify that there is a difference between the notional list price, which is used as a marker for many other countries, and the actual price paid by the NHS? Secondly, does he agree that, if the Treasury had not purloined the rebate, we would have had the money and patients would have had access to new drugs?

[Lord Lansley]

The noble Lord makes interesting points, which point to where we were always intending to go—to a point where there was in effect a negotiated price between the industry and the NHS so that there was a proper discount. Now we have a rebate system. There was a lot of debate in the other place about where the rebate money went. It goes back into the NHS through the mechanism of the overall Consolidated Fund, so it is less transparent than is the case in Scotland, for example. However, that does not mean that it is lost to the NHS.

I will anticipate something that I was going to say later. A consultation is taking place involving NHS England and the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, looking at how they can work together to introduce budgetary impact considerations alongside NICE evaluations to establish what prices the NHS should pay for medicines. That is taking us in the direction we have to go—namely, what is in effect negotiated pricing through the NHS to ensure access to medicines for patients. That is the positive construction of the present consultation. The negative construction is that it will create in effect double jeopardy. In the first instance NICE may say no on the basis of the list price. Then NHS England may add a second reason to say no because of the budgetary impact of new medicines—so there is an inherent problem with that.

I will finish the history for a moment. Where dispensing is concerned, there is a history under the last Labour Government of the pharmacy sector significantly exceeding the planned margin between the wholesale price and the reimbursement price because of a lack of good information. Therefore, we can be absolutely clear that an important purpose of the Bill is to get the margin survey right and provide more comprehensive data on the prices being achieved in the purchasing of medicines so as to make the reimbursement price deliver the agreed gross margin as part of the global sum to pharmacies.

Therefore, I support the Bill and its intended purposes. It will be important that it is used properly. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, made some very good points, including on equivalence between the two schemes. Gilead, a firm in my former constituency when I was in another place, continues to tell me what it thinks about these things and points precisely to the potential disparity between the statutory and voluntary schemes in relation to medicines introduced since 1 December 2013. If equivalence is the intention, we need to ensure that the Bill specifies that.

We are looking for a competitive environment in relation to unbranded generic medicines. The Competition and Markets Authority is pushing for that and the measures in the Bill can help Ministers to achieve that prospectively, as it were, rather than just dealing with abuse. But it is wrong for Ministers to take powers which would allow them to behave non-competitively. There is monopsony in this—monopoly purchasing by Ministers. Where a competitive environment is created—for example, where the price is determined in a competitive tender process—it would be completely wrong in my view for them suddenly to find that a price agreed through a competitive process is overridden by ministerial diktat—as the noble Lord said, Lord Warner, said.

I hope that we will also discuss two other issues. A very important one is to build back into the thinking on the future PPRS, through this legislation, what a future PPRS should have at its heart. Ministers making decisions about pricing structures should have specific reference to affordability. They should also have reference to the ability for patients to access the medicines they need through the NHS; the extent to which the pricing system enables unmet need to be met; and the extent to which medicines deliver relative therapeutic benefit, so that we literally pay for innovation and for therapeutic advance, but do not pay a lot of money for me-too drugs with brandings attached to them. However, we should pay for societal benefit. One can imagine the considerable benefit to society that would be derived from a new drug to treat early onset Alzheimer’s. We should also give explicit support to innovation. As the Bill proceeds, I hope that we will see more detail on not only the regulations but how the consultation between NHS England and NICE is proceeding. Perhaps the Government could also say more about their formal response to the accelerated access review and the life sciences strategy.

I support the Bill and I hope all the issues that I have referenced will be brought forward and discussed, including the structure of the information powers. At the moment, they are too wide-ranging and lacking in safeguards. Strictly speaking, there may be circumstances in which it is necessary for Ministers, if they ask for information, to provide a notice saying for what purposes it will be used and with whom it will be shared. Under those circumstances there should also be the potential for an appeal to the General Regulatory Chamber—but we can look at that in more detail in Committee.

As I say, I support the Bill and I hope we can look in Committee at giving more clarity on some of those issues and perhaps even building in one or two safeguards.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Redfern (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as recorded in the register and formally welcome my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy as the Minister this afternoon. Although the Bill is modest in size and has few clauses, it will deliver an important role in securing better value for money not only for the NHS but for patients.

Pressures on the NHS increase year on year because of our ageing population, new technology, and development of new procedures with advanced drugs, resulting in an increase in spending over the past five years of 20%. We spend more than £15 billion a year on pharmaceutical products, and we are acknowledged by those companies to be a reference market for many other countries that do not have such a large or well-organised supply chain as we do.

Patients request access to innovative and cost-effective medicines, so the Bill delivers value for money and does not support the drug companies, which have a commanding monopoly position, to push up their prices. I am pleased to see a strengthening of the ability to collect data on the cost of medicines, medical supplies and other related products from across the supply chain, which the Bill would amend by extending the provisions of the 2016 Act.

The statutory scheme has delivered significantly lower than expected savings for the NHS, with concern as to whether competition in the market is sufficient to control prices, so with new powers to be established under the Bill, there will be opportunities for more competition for unbranded generic medicines and to apply price controls for companies that are members of the PPRS. Particularly when companies can charge unreasonably high prices for unbranded generic medicines when competition does not keep the prices down, the Bill closes a current loophole in the legislative framework.

Clause 6 requires information from more producers and companies but, importantly, any information that they supply which may be commercially sensitive cannot be disseminated beyond the prescribed bodies. We may therefore be better informed on a more consistent basis, particularly to assess whether the supply chain as a whole or a specific sector provides value for money for the NHS. The world is changing, and personalised medicine is an important development for us all—but, again, it needs to be delivered both effectively and affordably.

At all times, we must make sure that the UK is seen as an attractive place for the life science sector—research being seen as a vital component in the sustainability of the NHS, as we have heard from previous speakers. To balance the control of the price of medicines and innovation for pharmaceutical companies, there should not be a lack of motivation to invest in the extensive R&D that we all want. In order to stimulate continued investment, it is appropriate for the industry to see a stable marketplace here as significant and important.

If we are to create a level playing field for drug companies, should we not be trying to do the same for patients? I therefore ask my noble friend whether one measure to tackle the issue could be ring-fencing possible rebates or a percentage from the sector to invest in improving access to medicines and treatments—particularly when we read that a fifth of new drugs face rationing under tighter NHS cost-cutting plans. With a budget impact threshold, that has the potential to slam the brakes on the most effective new treatments and technologies just before they get to patients.

Finally, although we promote innovation, that is not only a priority in the NHS for the Government but for many other stakeholders in the industry. As I said, the Bill is modest in size but it carries the opportunity to ensure that this country is not left behind in access to the newest and best treatments, and that it delivers best value for money.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to have the opportunity to contribute in Committee. I join in welcoming our noble friend the Minister to his new responsibilities on the Bill. I also draw attention to my interests as recorded in the register. I think only one of them might be regarded as specifically relevant to the Bill, although it is a company which would not benefit directly from it.

As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, Amendment 1 raises quite a number of issues, which we will have the opportunity to return to on further amendments. If I may be so bold, the structure of Amendment 1 would insert a clause which is really designed to express hope and intention, rather than to provide a statutory provision having any effect. Some of the other amendments would have the necessary statutory effect to back up some of the intentions encapsulated in Amendment 1, but it does no harm to realise what we are trying to do.

On the amendment’s first limb of supporting,

“a flourishing life sciences sector”,

it is a very apposite day as that is one of the clear intentions of the consultation on an industrial strategy. Listening to the reports this morning, it was clear that in so far as there is a focus on sectors where this country has a comparative advantage—I think we were discussing comparative advantage in the Chamber only last week—pharmaceuticals and life sciences is clearly one of those areas.

A number of noble Lords talked about the strength of our research base in this country and, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, the proportion of new discoveries that have emanated from our research base is striking. It is considerably in excess of our relative importance as a market. We are only about 3% of the global market in pharmaceuticals but we have more than 10% of the new chemical entities—and as my noble friend Lady Redfern said, we often represent up to 25% of the international reference pricing. That is one of the reasons why there is a noted sensitivity on the part of the industry about its strength in the UK.

Where the life sciences sector is concerned, from my experience around Cambridge—in my former constituency and where I live—we probably have the strongest cluster of life sciences in Europe. As was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, when you talk to the industry at the moment its principal concern is simply its capacity to recruit and retain some of the very best researchers and staff. It is often specifically about retaining them and is all to do with the current situation relating to our future relationship with the European Union.

The sector recruits staff from all over the world, way beyond the European Union, but is only too aware of the reaction there has been among its staff—something like 15% of whom are on average from elsewhere in the European Union—to the prospect of our leaving the EU. It is one of those classic situations: if Britain had never been in the European Union, staff attracted from elsewhere within it would have come here understanding under what circumstances they came. Having had the expectation of being EU citizens enjoying access to all the British circumstances, they find the prospect that those might be taken away from them very difficult. It is very important for us to be clear about not only accrued rights but the circumstances in which people come here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Warner]

Will the noble Lord clarify something for me? The point of my amendment was, in a sense, not any particular PPR scheme but the principle of a PPR scheme, which is a negotiation between government and the industry. No one is arguing that the PPR scheme should be set in stone for ever and a day. What the industry is concerned about is that Government are getting ready to impose a system as an alternative to a negotiated system. The amendment is not meant to enshrine a particular PPRS but to encourage the idea of a negotiated deal with the sector. Does the noble Lord accept that that is a good principle?

[Lord Lansley]

The short answer is yes. We should aim for what is a price paid by the NHS to the industry for the medicines that it uses that is reflective of value and is designed to promote innovative medicines—that is, as we will discuss in a later amendment, those that meet unmet need or add substantially to therapeutic benefit and are not the “me-too” drugs that are very similar to existing medicines but have a slightly different method of operation or delivery. Paying for what innovation gives by way of therapeutic benefit is where we want to be.

However, the amendment is right in the sense that one has to do that alongside supporting the life sciences sector. That is where freedom of pricing at introduction is important. I have accepted the principle of a PPRS which delivers a budget to the NHS and delivers freedom of pricing to the industry. We are not legislating precisely for the structure of the PPRS, but let us assume that those are continuing features. However, through the operation of the rebate or some other means, it seems perfectly possible to incorporate some of the criteria that will be the subject of our discussions on a number of amendments, as is reflected in the second limb of the amendment.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

The noble Lord referred to me-too drugs. I hope that he agrees that it is important to recognise that such drugs have often been developed in parallel. They do not take a molecule and just copy it; they develop a new molecule or delivery system, often to minimise side-effects and to maximise efficacy. But they also have a production cost behind them. They are not just copies of something previously produced and marketed differently; they have innovation behind them as well.

[Lord Lansley]

I understand that. There is a perfectly good argument for the benefits that are derived from incremental innovation. Not every innovation is a step change compared to what has gone before, so that is a perfectly valid point. One objective that we should arrive at, as I hope my own Amendment 10 will later reflect, is that the structure of value has to understand what those benefits might look like. New medicines will come through that are similar but are significantly better, for example in terms of compliance for patient populations, because they are administered differently. One might say, “Well, it’s a very similar drug”, but one has to look at what the overall benefit might be, which is part of the value.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, cost-effective medicines which work for patients are vital, but some orphan drugs will cost more. Why are there differences in the pricing of drugs in Scotland and England? Someone must be making a lot of money.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lansley]

May I say a quick word on these two amendments, which would have the same effect in relation to the voluntary and statutory scheme? I understand the debate that we have just had, but it seems to me that we are likely to have a more productive discussion to this effect on the next group. The purpose of these amendments is simply to say that the money that is generated through the rebate must travel back to pay for medicines. The consequence of any such scheme would be that, whereas at present the Treasury together with NHS England and the Department of Health agree a budget based on the Treasury’s assumption that there will be a drugs bill and that bill will be controlled at that level by virtue of the rebate, the Treasury would be obliged to say that the drugs bill could not be controlled. We know that the rebate does not necessarily correspond to the prior assumption of the level, so the amount of money available to fund medicines would be variable, particularly if it was applied to new medicines, as in Scotland. There would therefore be, from the industry’s point of view, nothing in principle to prevent it from pricing up products that fall within the scheme to which the rebate is applied, with the impact that that would increase the money available to supply additional medicines, knowing perfectly well that there would be no overall budgetary control. At the end of the day, there has to be budgetary control. It is only by virtue of the fact that the rebate is not automatically recycled into additional NHS expenditure that the budget can be controlled. In the absence of any such control, I cannot see how the amendments would work.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Surely it is the other way round. The NHS could up its intake of new medicines willy-nilly, knowing that the industry would have to pay a rebate to the department. In essence, industry would be paying for the uptake of new medicines. The problem is that the Treasury discounts the figure. It makes an estimate of what the rebate is likely to be in the next financial year and builds it into the baseline budget, which is based on minimal growth.

[Lord Lansley]

The position is that the PPRS is a deal based on a budget. If you want to construct something that does not have a budget limit, you could certainly do so, but I do not think that the amendments would have the effect that was looked for. As for another way of doing it, this is where we get on to what in my view is the real debate. I am not sure that I have ever believed that there should be a fixed drugs budget in the NHS. We have a health budget and we should aim for the NHS to derive the greatest possible benefit to patients from the budget that it deploys—not the drugs budget but the total health budget.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

That is very interesting. It has always struck me that when you chair a board of an NHS foundation trust, for instance, there is a philosophy that says that spending on doctors and nurses is a good thing but spending on drugs is a bad thing. It is a ludicrous position. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that there is a big problem. Spending on drugs is seen as a cost pressure, so automatically everyone’s emphasis is on keeping that spending down, whereas a rather more sophisticated approach would take the view that, if you have spent your money on drugs that have had a hugely positive impact on the throughput of patients, cost-effectiveness and efficiency, that might be a good investment. The question when we come to the next group is whether our current arrangements have come to the end of the road and whether we need to move on to something rather more sophisticated.

[Lord Warner]

What we set up a long time ago was, effectively, NICE to be the arbitrator, and we controlled the flow of technology appraisals into it. I used to sign off a limited number of drugs that would go into the NICE process. We have that system, which has now been legally enshrined. It is also open to NICE to withdraw drugs from use, as it has from time to time, or to change procedures. We have a system enshrined in our law in which the NHS is required to commit to introducing NICE-approved technology appraisals, so the idea that we should let the Treasury arbitrarily reduce and control the small bit of that total NHS budget on those grounds seems bizarre. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley: we have ended up obsessing about this relatively small part of the NHS budget when we have set up a system to ensure that the NHS gets value for money through the NICE appraisal process. We are getting into a strange situation, which is why we are scrabbling around to make amendments to try to make a pretty crazy system slightly less crazy.

[Lord Lansley]

There is a risk of going on about this, but the structure of the amendment in the context of the PPRS as presently constructed is illogical, because the PPRS is constructed around budget control. The point, however—we will no doubt come back to this, not least on the next group—is that we should be thinking about how we can arrive at a negotiated price for the NHS to buy medicines which may well be marketed initially or globally at a given price, but the amount that the NHS should pay should reflect value. I have said it before and I will keep coming back to it.

I would not be as disparaging of the current consultation between NHS England and NICE at the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. It could have the effect that he describes: adding additional jeopardy because one has to meet not only all the normal criteria for an effective medicine but the NICE threshold, and NHS England might step in with hobnailed boots and say, “But we are not going to make it available and you must change the funding direction”. But it might recognise reality. The consultation, in my view, may have the effect of avoiding arbitrary post hoc rationing of medicines, because the NHS should be up front, negotiating price discounts on medicines, regardless of the rebate. That means engaging with the industry at an early point.

If the industry understands the consultation properly, it will understand that the budgetary impact for the NHS under current circumstances cannot be ignored. The best way to deal with that is not to go through all these processes and then find, at the end of the day, that the NHS cannot afford it, or that NICE has to say no through the application of the threshold. Rather, it is to use the pharmaco-economic evaluation and the health technology assessment properly alongside NHS England and say: “Here is something that is valuable and we want to be able to use it, but we must recognise the budgetary impacts”. There may well therefore be some risk-sharing processes or discounting processes to enable the product to be available to the NHS at an early stage and to give industry and the NHS all the information they need subsequently to be able to make sure that they have got the pricing right.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank noble Lords for these amendments and for the discussion that has followed. I will come back to the issue of budgetary control raised by my noble friend Lord Lansley. I do not think it is enough simply to say that it should not be a factor. It is a factor and I will talk about how that interacts with the current system in my response.

Our concerns with these amendments are twofold—one is a matter of principle and the second is a matter of practice. In my short period in the office I have already had an opportunity to talk about ring-fencing on at least one occasion. Noble Lords understand that the Government’s policy is not to ring-fence with budgets set by politicians but rather to give money to the NHS and its constituent parts and to trust clinical judgment on commissioning health services in response to the regulatory regime that is set up to hold them accountable. I have not yet heard from anybody who disagrees with that fundamental principle.

Amendments 2 and 4 are unnecessary, therefore, because all the income and savings from the PPRS and the statutory scheme are already invested in NHS services. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, the anticipated income from the PPRS and the statutory scheme are put into the NHS baseline. That baseline is the figure above which we will be spending the additional £10 billion by 2020-21. That money is already in the baseline and it is there to be used with the discretion of clinicians within the system.

The Health and Social Care Act 2012 requires the Secretary of State to promote the autonomy of NHS England and clinical commissioning groups. This includes their decisions as commissioners about priorities for funding. That is because it is a fundamental principle of the NHS that funding should be allocated according to clinical priorities based on the judgment of clinical commissioners. That might include new treatments but it might include scaling up older, effective treatments or investing in staff. The proposed amendments would result in the income received from a voluntary or statutory scheme being used solely for the purposes of reimbursing the NHS for medicines and medical supplies. It is perhaps worth highlighting to noble Lords that the NHS spent over £15.2 billion on medicines in 2015-16—far in excess of the cumulative income received from both schemes.

I come to a couple of points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. The first, as I mentioned, is on budgetary control. The second is that if additional money were spent, it could be recycled back into funding for innovative drugs. I am not sure. I have not had the opportunity yet to consult with the boards of life sciences companies, but I am not sure that there is an open-ended commitment there either to continue spending money in the NHS. There is a need for budgetary control on both sides. I appreciate—and it is a strong theme in this debate and was in the previous debate—the need to do something about access. The ability to access drugs and to access them quickly is both good for patients—because clearly those drugs are being approved because they are an improvement largely on what has gone before—and also good for life sciences. If we are in the game, as it were, of trying to find a win-win out of the changes we make now or in future, clearly access will be a clear part of that.

My noble friend Lord Lansley touched on a practical objection. It is the potential unintended consequence of ring-fencing the income from schemes specifically for certain types or categories of medicines. The income from the PPRS and the statutory scheme can fluctuate, so allocating the income to a specific area, such as new medicines, brings risk. This could potentially disadvantage patients by making treatment dependent on income from medicines pricing schemes, thereby producing inequities. At the moment the Department of Health manages that risk. The proposed changes would move that risk on to the NHS—which, as we know, is already under a great deal of pressure.

I understand the intention behind the amendments, but I am not convinced that the Government predetermining clinical decisions and clinical priorities for spending on medicines and medical supplies is the right way to go. We believe that the current PPRS is designed to incentivise companies to bring new medicines to market. Companies with mainly new medicines in their portfolios pay less than companies with mainly old medicines, and as part of the PPRS, the Government have made a number of commitments around NICE decisions and the funding of NICE-approved products in order to support access to new medicines.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I will speak to the second part of Amendment 3, as I think we have comprehensively covered the first part in our debates on the first two groups. I am not looking to the Minister to respond to the first part. The second part of my amendment seeks clarification on the relationship and equivalence between the voluntary and statutory schemes. It provides a further opportunity to debate the future of a voluntary PPR scheme, because, clearly, it might be argued that the Bill is setting a precedent for determining in legislation the nature of a voluntary scheme. It would be helpful if the Minister set out in very broad terms the kind of approach he wishes to be taken in the future—in either a statutory or voluntary scheme—looking at the issues we have talked about in relation to pricing, access and value for money.

In many ways, the voluntary PPRS approach has served government, patients and the industry pretty well over the years. There is no doubt, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, referred to, that it has provided certainty to government, alongside giving the industry flexibility on the prices it sets, because it acts as a marker to many other countries. However, the actual price paid is very different from the notional price set. What comes to my mind is that this is not very transparent and very few people understand the system. One does begin to wonder whether it is still serving its purpose and whether we need to think about a new approach that is neither the voluntary PPRS approach we have at the moment nor the statutory approach we have in mind for companies that have not signed up to the voluntary system. If anything, there is the issue of equivalence, which companies wish to know about in terms of the two schemes, but it would be helpful to know where we are going in relation to future negotiations, and the amendments from the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Lansley, will address this. I beg to move.

[Lord Lansley]

The purpose of Amendment 5, in my name, is to recognise that the Government have brought forward legislation to do a necessary thing, which is to address the discontinuity between the voluntary scheme and the powers available under the statutory scheme. As such, where companies were operating under the statutory scheme with a pre-existing discounted price, often in the hospital sector, the effect of the statutory scheme imposing a given price cut did not impact on their effective price to their customers. Therefore, they did not make a contribution, in that sense, to the budgetary control that was being looked for. The purpose of the legislation is to bring equivalence to the voluntary and statutory schemes. But if we are creating equivalence between the voluntary and statutory schemes, we should be clear that the legislation does precisely that. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, quite accurately referred to this issue at Second Reading, if I recall. There are companies under the statutory scheme—Gilead is a particular example—with products that would, under the voluntary scheme, not have a PPRS control applied to their pricing because they would not contribute to the rebate as they have been introduced after December 2013. Under the statutory scheme, however, they are required to contribute.

As I understand it, the objection to bringing the two schemes to an equivalent place is that under the statutory scheme, as things stand, there are relatively few products and a significant proportion of them have been introduced since December 2013. Therefore, under the statutory scheme, the effect on the rebate of the rest of the companies would be excessive. That can be dealt with. The powers are available. If we legislate in the form that I propose, the Government can modulate the rebate between the two schemes in order to arrive at a similar result for those companies that have to contribute to the rebate and apply a common percentage. As a matter of principle, if we are legislating for the two to be equivalent, it is desirable to do so.

I am slightly worried about Amendment 3 because it assumes that there is a voluntary scheme. We do not know. There may or may not be a voluntary scheme. But a voluntary scheme will not always be in place at the point at which the Government, in order to protect the NHS, may require there to be one. I do not think that we should be in that position. There would be a flaw in the powers available to set a methodology for a rebate under a statutory scheme. In Amendment 6, which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has not yet had a chance to speak to, he clearly understands that there needs to be a relationship between these two, but I fear there is a risk of gaming on that amendment because the industry may say that if it does not agree a voluntary scheme there cannot be a statutory scheme. Therefore, there is no scheme, and I do not think that that we want to get ourselves into that position. It will not surprise the Committee that I can see reason for my own amendment even if I am not necessarily in favour of everyone else’s.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that I see excellent reasons for his amendment. If the purpose of the Bill is to achieve equivalence between the two schemes, the Bill should secure that. At the moment, it does not. The industry does not think that it does. I am not sure, technically, whether the noble Lord’s amendment secures it, but I think it does. If it is not quite right, no doubt the Government can amend it. I tabled Amendment 6 to push the Government a little more on their commitment to a voluntary scheme. That is its purpose. We have had a good canter over that particular area. As I said when we discussed Amendment 1, I was not totally convinced by the Government’s position, but I want to set out briefly why this is important.

The scheme has stood the test of time as a basis for a relationship between an industry and government where that industry has a much bigger set of customers and a much bigger presence outside the UK. We have actually punched above our weight in securing the presence of that industry in this country, partly through the NHS, but partly because a system was imposed on the industry in terms of the research-based drugs industry. There was a negotiation. Amendment 6 is not meant to say in any way that a particular type of PPRS should be enshrined in legislation for all time. It is trying to get the Government to say, clearly and unequivocally, that for the foreseeable future, there will be some form of voluntary scheme in which a negotiation takes place in an open and transparent way with this particular sector in order to keep this sector being attracted to setting up, doing research and developing pharmaceuticals for the population at large and for the NHS in particular.

Amendment 6 is trying to get out of the Government rip-roaring support for the foreseeable future, a little stronger than the Minister said earlier on, for a voluntary scheme that presents an opportunity for government and the sector to agree the basis on which they operate in a life sciences industry producing drugs that can be made available quickly and speedily, when proven, to the NHS and its patients.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Lansley]

10: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—
“Price control: criteria
After section 264 of the National Health Service Act 2006 (statutory schemes: supplementary) insert—“264ZZA Price control: criteria(1) In determining the prices of medicines under sections 261 and 263 of this Act, the Secretary of State must have regard to the criteria listed in subsection (2), insofar as the prices concerned relate to a new chemical entity, or a new indication for the use of an existing medicine.(2) The criteria are—(a) the prospective therapeutic benefit to patients;(b) the extent to which the therapy meets an as yet unmet need;(c) any wider social benefits which would accrue from the medicine’s use;(d) the desirability of making licensed medicines available to clinicians and their patients, for use where they are the most clinically appropriate treatment; (e) the desirability of promoting innovation in new therapies; and(f) affordability for the National Health Service, including any evaluation of the relative benefit of the medicine compared to other treatments available.””

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lansley]

Amendment 10 is intended to insert into the Bill some of the criteria that I hope would form part of a value assessment for pricing of medicines. The difficulty is that, as things stand, the structure of the two schemes is not designed to take account of those criteria. It is not a value assessment but a budgetary control process. We are, to that extent, looking at an amendment the purpose of which is to put into the legislation criteria applicable to the design of a future PPRS.

I have in the past—in a debate in my name in another place, back in December 2014—expressed the view that we could redesign the existing PPRS to reflect the value of medicines. That would be done by modulating the extent of the rebate payable, such that medicines that were relatively costly in relation to their determined value under such a system would pay a higher proportion of the rebate than those that appeared, on the basis of this assessment, to be charged at something more relevant to the implied value. That is in the existing scheme and I see no prospect of it being revised during its present life through to the end of 2018. An amendment of this character would clearly be designed in relation to a future PPRS.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley for this amendment and I pay tribute to his considerable expertise in this area. We had the opportunity to discuss some of this when we met. I also recognise that the amendment’s purpose is to start thinking ahead to what comes next. It is not so much to define right here and now what is required but to do something which I think he has been trying to do for a long time: to broaden the discussion about how we price value into medicines and bring that broader discussion to bear. I recognise the intention. It clearly is important that we think of these things in the broadest possible sense for the benefit of the most people possible.

Amendment 10 would require the Secretary of State to have regard to factors such as therapeutic benefit to patients, meeting unmet need, wider societal benefits, the promotion of innovation in new therapies and NHS affordability. I would like to draw noble Lords’ attention to the legal duties that already exist, which the Government believe currently achieve the intention behind the amendment. Section 266(4) of the NHS Act 2006 already requires the Government to bear in mind,

“the need for medicinal products to be available to the health service on reasonable terms”,

and,

“the costs of research and development”,

when limiting the price of medicines—something we discussed in the last group. Section 233 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 requires NICE to have regard to,

“the broad balance between the benefits and costs of provision … the degree of need … and … the desirability of promoting innovation”.

In reading out these sections, I am beginning to understand that these Acts are often very, very long. I am thankful for small mercies that our Bill is not, yet.

As part of the NICE clinical and cost-effectiveness assessments, NICE already considers factors such as therapeutic benefit to patients, unmet clinical need and the promotion of innovation, and has recently consulted on new affordability considerations. The point here is that some of the factors that my noble friend is concerned about are already taking place but within the NICE process as part of that assessment.

The Government’s priority is to make sure we get the best possible results for all NHS patients with the resources we have. We will continue to look at how to promote better access to effective medicines through NICE recommendations and guidance to the NHS. In developing that guidance, NICE takes account of all health-related costs and benefits, including the benefits to carers. As I am sure my noble friend will recall, in 2014, NICE considered changes to its methods to better capture the wider costs and benefits to society of new drugs and treatments, sometimes known as value-based pricing. It is only responsible to report that, during the consultation, some significant concerns were raised; for example, about the potential implications for products that offer limited life extension without associated gains in quality of life for those with terminal illnesses. The consultation highlighted a significant diversity of responses, demonstrating that this is a complex issue. The point here is to say that there may be a way through, but we do not yet know what the right way forward is. It is critical that stakeholders continue to have confidence in NICE’s work, and we agree with NICE that these issues require very careful consideration before making changes to the way that we assess medicines.

My final point is on freedom of pricing, an issue that has been raised and which this amendment would have an impact on. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government, when setting prices for new medicines, currently operate a system of freedom of pricing for medicines that are a new active substance. This means that the maximum NHS price approved and published by the Secretary of State is that proposed by companies. NICE will then assess the product and consider whether it is clinically and cost effective. The PPRS allows a company to propose a discount to the maximum price.

We know that this system of freedom of pricing for new active substances is of great value to the life sciences industry, providing commercial flexibility, which is important in a context where other countries may reference the maximum NHS price in their own pricing arrangements—something we know to be of huge value. It does not prevent the NHS securing substantial discounts, which indeed it does, and these form part of the overall assessment of value undertaken by NICE. The amendment could, however, have the effect of removing the principle of freedom of pricing, which has been an important pillar of medicines pricing agreements for years. It would require the introduction of assessments akin to clinical and cost effectiveness when determining price, as opposed to determining through NICE whether it should be used. Such an approach would largely replicate the factors that NICE considers as part of its clinical and cost-effectiveness assessments.

I want to make one final point on the current scheme and looking ahead. The PPRS commits the Government to maintaining the basic NICE threshold and take-up periods until the end of 2018. It is my belief that the right time to look at whether the sorts of factors that my noble friend has raised should be taken into account in medicines funding and pricing arrangements is as part of discussions on a new medicines pricing system, where it can then be looked at in the round. That opportunity will arise when considering what should happen when the current PPRS expires. I would be very happy to explore with him proposals on what any new scheme could look like. I look forward to productive dialogue and to benefiting from his wisdom in the months ahead. On that basis, we believe that the amendment is unnecessary, although we sympathise with its intention. I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw it.

[Lord Lansley]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that thoughtful and helpful response. I will say three things. First, thank you for the opportunity to be consulted as the future PPRS structure is developed. I very much appreciate that.

Secondly, on freedom of pricing and introduction, it does not necessarily follow that putting into the legislation the criteria that Ministers should take into account in so far as they exercise their powers has a direct impact. That might be done, as I described, through the mechanism of modulating the rebate, which would not impact on the freedom of pricing and introduction.

My third point is that I did not invent value-based pricing. I may have advocated it for some considerable time—probably 10 years now—but it was advocated before I took it up by the OECD in a wide-ranging report on pharmaceutical pricing internationally and by the Office of Fair Trading in its review of the previous PPRS.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I think it goes back even further, to an Oxera report on value-based pricing.

[Lord Lansley]

The noble Lord is absolutely right about that. There is a history to this. The reason why there is a history is, first, that this is an eminently desirable place to arrive at, in that it would give us tremendous transparency in pricing. At the moment, it is extremely difficult to discern the pricing structures in the industry from the point of view of the payers. Secondly, it would enable us—and this is the objective—to arrive at the point where we could give patients the access to the medicines that are most appropriate to them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

This is very interesting and rows back to a point that the noble Lord made earlier. One issue is the capacity to negotiate with industry. My understanding is that the pharmaceutical industry has made some approaches to NHS England to look at elements of what the noble Lord is suggesting. There is a sense that, at the moment, there simply is not the capacity to negotiate the kind of sophisticated agreement that he seeks.

[Lord Lansley]

Without repeating what I said earlier about the consultation being conducted jointly by NHS England and NICE, I think that that is precisely the point. These two organisations need to be brought together. There is a degree of sophistication in the NICE processes that needs to be allied to the affordability and therapeutic benefit considerations as seen by NHS England. I freely admit that NHS England is still developing its role.

In relation to specialised health commissioning, I think that it is tremendously positive for it to be able to see the needs and advantages of commissioning all these specialised services on a national basis, as opposed to the patchwork and inconsistencies that we used to see. In that sense, it is only discovering what the commissioning pressures and costs look like—but that will enable it to move on to understanding what that means in terms of the relative benefit and, by implication, affordability of getting into negotiations with companies.

We need to arrive at the point where NHS England can engage up front with industry about the potential cost and pricing of medicines and obviate the need for NICE to go through the long process of the introduction of additional thresholds. As we discussed, there is an issue about the introduction of an additional threshold for highly specialised technologies. We do not want to go to that place with additional thresholds and a variety of arbitrary figures. We should be able to arrive at a point where industry can engage up front with an expectation of understanding what kind of discounting or price it is likely to be able to attract from the NHS because it is able to have a serious discussion about relative value.

I have been dragged back into another, longer conversation. I entirely take my noble friend’s point that there are references to these criteria for Ministers to take account of elsewhere, but there is a risk that the PPRS can be constructed as a budgetary control mechanism without regard to those criteria—notwithstanding that Ministers have a responsibility for them in other places. Even if it were constructed in terms of cross-reference to ministerial duties elsewhere, we could still continue to look at whether this part of the legislation—the statutory basis for the scheme—should cross-refer to the criteria that should be brought to apply. But I take my noble friend’s comments in good part and I am happy on that basis to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

In light of the noble Lord’s remarks, I wonder how he sees there being flexibility. The problem with establishing a value-based price, however one works it out, is that we do not have a crystal ball. A product may be used for a whole lot of different indications. One example is Rituximab, which was developed for lymphoma but is now widely used for at least seven other indications. Some of those are chronic conditions, so there is long-term use.

Obviously, the company produced a product and a price was fixed estimated on a certain amount of use, but then its sales went up hugely. That represents an enormous profit. In the system that the noble Lord envisages, how much flexibility would be built in to allow for volume sales and a dramatic lowering of the production costs? That has happened with a lot of things that were initially expensive to produce, but where production costs dropped dramatically over time. We must not inadvertently get locked into pricings that over time become inappropriate.

[Lord Lansley]

There is a risk of making this debate too extended, but the amendment is not about the whole structure of pricing but about what criteria should be taken into account. In the context of a PPRS scheme such as the present one, the point I made previously was that it would be possible, for example—and this is only an example—to modulate the rebate by reference to any gap between the price charged to the NHS by a company and the value as disclosed by a comparative assessment.

Of course, if there are a number of different indications, the value may vary according to those indications, but that is no problem in itself because all you are doing is trying to understand to what extent a company would be required to contribute a lot to the rebate because there was a big gap between the price charged and its relative value. Some companies may contribute virtually nothing to the rebate because there is no disclosed gap between the price charged to the NHS for a product and its relative value. That is merely an example of how a scheme could be adapted using this sort of value assessment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 10 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Lansley]

16: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
“Price control: exemptions
After section 264 of the National Health Service Act 2006 (statutory schemes: supplementary) insert— “264ZA Price control: exemptionsIn controlling maximum prices of any health service medicines and medical supplies, including amounts payable to the Secretary of State under a voluntary or statutory scheme, the Secretary of State may not set a maximum price in respect of any product for which the cost of that product to the National Health Service has been determined through an open and competitive tender process.””

[Lord Lansley]

Amendment 16 takes us to an issue that was the subject of consultation prior to the introduction of the Bill: whether the Government should take powers to control prices in circumstances where there has been an open and competitive process—for example, a tender process. We know that one reason why the legislation is required is because it does not follow that because products have become unbranded generic medicines they are necessarily available on a fully competitive basis in the marketplace. We have seen examples of that. In explaining the purpose of the Bill, it was stated that:

“The government’s intention is to use these new powers where due to a lack of competition in the market, companies charge unreasonably high prices for unbranded generic medicines”.


That is understood. There can be circumstances where there is a lack of competition.

Quite clearly, however, there are circumstances where the products available and the prices set are themselves the product of an open and competitive process, such as a tender process; for example, in relation to blood products being supplied to the NHS. There may well be a degree of market dominance in some of those, even though some of the complex medicines may be generic. For example, I know a company that produces medicines in circumstances where it has to use opiates, and the availability of those opiates might be limited.

None the less, if the NHS can procure on the basis of a tender that is open and competitive, why should the Government leap in and try to amend it? I understand that the response to that is to say that companies can take account of the rebate in the prices that they set. But surely when one enters into a tender, the companies concerned may not be in symmetrical positions in relation to the implications of the rebate. Some companies are indifferent to the rebate because they are not affected by it and other companies are affected by it. The nature of the rebate over a period of time and the extent of it may be variable, and they may make completely different assumptions about what that process looks like. So it seems, on the face of it, that a much cleaner approach to the Bill would be exemption from the price control mechanism in those circumstances where clearly the mischief that the Bill is intended to remedy does not apply: that is, in an open and competitive process. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, this is helpful. Medicines have been referred to, but I would have thought that it could be helpful with other medical supplies. I have had a letter from the British Healthcare Trades Association. It says, in relation to other medical supplies:

“We cannot think of any procurement scenario in our sector where products, on an ongoing basis, are not subject to tender or tariff procedures. The price is tested at entry and reviewed at regular intervals, and the terms and conditions pertaining to the contract or tariff arrangements will include requirements for provision of information”.


That deals with the issue of information. So the noble Lord has put forward a very interesting suggestion and I hope that the Minister might be sympathetic to it.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I too have a great deal of sympathy with the amendment, but I just wonder what the definition would be of an “open and competitive” process—perhaps it would be defined in regulations. Does the noble Lord agree?

[Lord Lansley]

That is a helpful suggestion. It might not necessarily be defined in regulations, but one might contemplate that the Secretary of State would issue guidance as to what constituted such a process.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank my noble friend for his amendment and am very happy to show sympathy with it, as other noble Lords have done. I will start by stating that the Government’s view is clearly that competition and market forces are the best way of delivering value. Wherever possible, we should ensure that competition is there, that it works and that it involves as many participants as possible. In many instances, that is the way to drive better value. That being the case, my first priority is to look at ways of improving how markets operate, before reaching for the lever of regulation. That principle is guiding our work on the pricing and cost control of medicines and medical supplies.

For that reason, I understand the sentiment behind the amendment. The underlying assumption here is that if the NHS tenders for a product in a competitive market, the tender should always secure the NHS the best possible deal, and that there should be no need for further government intervention. However, while that is the case sometimes, it is not always the case. I will give a couple of examples. The department or the NHS may conduct tenders for a number of reasons, including security of supply. Furthermore, EU procurement rules —of course, that may change in future—which have been implemented into domestic legislation pursuant to the Public Contracts Regulations 2015 mean that, for contracts for products over a certain value, the NHS has to tender such contract opportunities in accordance with the requirements specified in the procurement rules.

Where there is a sole supplier of a particular product, or other factors such as supply or specificity of products apply, a tender exercise in itself is unlikely to result in significantly lower prices. For example, the department has run competitive processes for von Willebrand factor. This is used to treat patients with a genetic deficiency in the quality or quantity of this protein, which causes problems with blood clotting. Although there are six or seven products that may meet our tender specification, they all have a different concentration of von Willebrand factor, so they are not easily interchangeable. This means that, in practice, the suppliers of such products do not compete on price, knowing that clinicians need access to all the products to select on clinical need and that the department will make awards on this basis.

--- Later in debate ---

I say to both my noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that I have great sympathy for the intention of their amendments in this group and the previous group. I would be very happy to meet them individually to discuss the substance of their proposed amendments to see what more could be done, not necessarily through the Bill, but through any other kind of intervention that might be possible, to deliver something that has come up again and is in constant tension with the other thing that we care about, which is access and keeping prices down—something that we all want to achieve. On that basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lansley]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his interesting response. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I want to take it away and think about it. I probably felt kind of comfortable with what my noble friend said in relation to branded medicine. I thought it was specifically in relation to unbranded generic medicines that the issue was, perhaps, most likely to arise. However, I can see that he is identifying circumstances where there might be a tender process, and that the fact of it being a tender does not necessarily mean that it is open and competitive on price. I therefore see why the amendment does not do the job. However, I can still see where there might be a risk, none the less. There might be open and competitive tender situations where the companies concerned feel that they are in subsequent jeopardy that the price that has been determined competitively might be overridden by the powers that are available to Ministers. We just need to see whether, perhaps in further discussion, we can find some way to give companies an assurance that that would not be the case, whether statutorily or otherwise. I would very much value my noble friend’s assurance that we will have that conversation. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 16 withdrawn.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th January 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Lansley]

32: Clause 6, page 5, line 32, at end insert—
“(4A) In connection with the requirements in subsection (2), the Secretary of State may serve a notice (an “information notice”) to a UK producer in order to require the person to supply the specific information required.(4B) An information notice must include particulars of—(a) the form in which the information must be supplied;(b) the date by which the information must be supplied;(c) the purpose for which the information is required;(d) with whom the information may be shared; and(e) the right of appeal under this section.(4C) A UK producer to whom an information notice has been served may appeal to the Upper Tier Tribunal against the notice.(4D) Regulations may make provision for, and in connection with, the determination of appeals under this section.”

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

It is a pleasure to start this, the second and concluding session in Committee. We have reached Clause 6, which relates to the provision of information. In the 2006 Act as it stands, there is a wide-ranging requirement to provide information under the statutory scheme for medicinal products. However, in the Bill the Government have resolved to go rather wider in the scope of the information-gathering power. We will come on to some of the reasons why I think that process of gathering information more rigorously is necessary and why I support it.

Happily, we are in this Bill discussing legislation that is, in principle, supported by the industry—it recognises the importance of securing a good relationship between the Government and the industry in determining the right pricing structure. This is particularly true because, in the past, under the voluntary scheme and statutory scheme, the information-gathering capacity was built into the schemes themselves.

In addition, there is the issue of gathering information relating to the reimbursement of pharmacies under what I think is known as scheme W. I completely understand why it is necessary. I remember that, back in about 2006—I am not sure which of our noble friends, if I may be so bold, was in ministerial office at that time—the issue that arose with pharmacies was the lack of contemporaneous data that enabled the gap between the wholesale purchasing and the reimbursement price on dispensed drugs to be determined accurately. At that time, I was the shadow spokesman, and whistleblowers came to me to tell me that the pharmacy industry was taking anything up to £500 million a year more, by way of its margin over its purchasing of drugs, than was allowed for in the global sum negotiated with the department. That was investigated by the National Audit Office and the whole system was tightened up.

We are, however, still not where we should be. On Monday, we debated the idea that if one ends up hearing about purchasing only from large organisations, one will get it wrong because one might leave out the fact that small pharmacies cannot necessarily purchase at quite so fine a price. However, unless I am very much mistaken, and contrary to that, if you gather information only from small pharmacies—even if they have a collective purchasing operation—and leave out the very biggest pharmacy chains, the chances are that you may be overestimating the wholesale price. Of course, there are some integrated operations, and getting that information from an integrated supply chain is extremely difficult.

The starting proposition for this debate is that there is a need to broaden the information-gathering power. Amendment 34, in my name, is consequential, but Amendment 32 is about what happens once one goes down the route of gathering quite so much information, potentially. I do not seek to amend the purposes that are set out, as the Committee will see, in Clause 6(3).

In Clause 6, there is a long list of the reasons why the Secretary of State might wish to gather information and the purposes required for that. It is potentially necessary for the information to be gathered. As a consequence, I do not wish to change all that list but at the moment, compared to most of the analogous information-gathering requirements for government laid upon industry, there is no safeguarding process. There is no process which, in itself, requires the Government to be much clearer about the information they require, the purposes for which they require it, the character of the use to which it will be put or, since there is a power to share information, with whom that information will be shared. Amendment 32 sets out to do this.

Under the voluntary or statutory schemes, there can be a scheme for gathering information that does not necessarily require information notices. Amendment 32 essentially says that in any circumstances where the Secretary of State does not receive the information the Government are looking for under a scheme, including presumably scheme W and others, there should be a power for the Secretary of State to issue an “information notice”. But where a notice is to be issued to somebody, it would then have to say some very specific things: what is required, in what form, by when, for what purpose, with whom it will be shared and about giving a right of appeal. There may inevitably be circumstances where there is a belief on the part of industry that the information being sought is not required—that the Government are unnecessarily hoovering it up, as it were. It may have a particular set of reasons of its own to try to resist this.

This amendment would give industry an opportunity to seek appeal if the Government are being disproportionate. Of course, it would have a right to judicial review but it would be much easier if this were governed under statute by way of simple appeal to the General Regulatory Chamber, as happens in a number of other areas where there is a requirement to gather information from people. I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to an understanding that, notwithstanding the general support of industry, concerns have been properly raised about the scope and extent of the information-gathering power the Government propose in the Bill. I hope he will recognise that the amendment would reassure the industry that it would be properly informed about what information is required, and would have some recourse if it objects to that information being taken. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to express some sympathy with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I am not sure whether he has got the terms of his amendment right; my noble friend Lord Warner has an amendment in the next group which, in a sense, covers the same ground.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, knows that I am sceptical about whether these powers should be extended to non-medicines but the issue here is that they are very broad, as he says. As far as I can see, there are absolutely no safeguards regarding how these powers will be used. The safeguards are not in the Bill or the 2006 Act, and certainly not in the draft regulations as far as I can see. We are looking for the Minister to table amendments on Report to build in thresholds or safeguards to stop the department simply undertaking fishing expeditions. That would give us some sense of proportionality. I am not sure whether the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Warner, have got their amendments quite right but I am certain there will be a consensus for building in some safeguards over the use of these powers.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that my explanation of the Bill and the two sets of illustrative regulations has clarified that the Government have carefully considered the issues of disclosing confidential and commercially sensitive information by restricting in the Bill the purposes for which information can be required and to whom information may be disclosed. I hope that I have also clarified that there is an appeal mechanism in place, albeit in a slightly different manner than that proposed by the amendment. On that basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lansley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and my noble friend for their response to this amendment. I can see from the illustrative regulations that, as I said earlier, there would be a general scheme for the collection of information, and I am not looking for the amendment to replace a general scheme with a requirement to issue individual information notices. That would be excessive and burdensome. However, under the illustrative regulations there is, in addition to the general scheme, what is effectively the restatement of the power for the Secretary of State additionally to require specific information from companies that breach the requirements of the general scheme—frankly, for any other purpose that the Secretary of State is looking for. That is in draft Regulation 19(2), which really just restates what is already in the legislation: that there is this general ability to say “just give me this information”.

I entirely understand the point that my noble friend is making about the appeal against enforcement, but there is no appeal against such a specific information notice. I may not have got it absolutely right, but in the case outside the general scheme of information, when the Secretary of State asks a company to provide specific additional information, I was proposing not an appeal against enforcement of request, where the company resisted, but for the company to be able to appeal against the information notice on the basis that it is an excessive use of powers; that is, rather than a judicial review, an appeal against that specific information notice.

My noble friend referred to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s view, which relates specifically to the question of with whom the information may be shared. The illustrative regulations really do not add anything from that point of view; they do not tell us, beyond what the legislation already states, with whom they may be shared. From any company’s point of view, there is little reassurance in the restrictions that the Minister has just referred to. The information could end up in all sorts of places. Remember, we are talking about an NHS body and, of course, all NHS bodies always behave absolutely properly in the use of information under all circumstances—I am being ironic.

From the point of view of a company engaged in selling these products, we are talking about a monopoly purchaser—a single payer—and a set of organisations with tremendous financial leverage in relation to the products that are being sold. If we are simply handing all the information over to the Secretary of State in the expectation that he could—I am not saying that he would—hand this information on to NHS bodies which are themselves the purchasers of these products, it could significantly skew what would otherwise be a proper commercial relationship between seller and buyer.

Companies must have a point at which they can cry foul, but I am not sure that we have yet given them the ability to do so at the appropriate stage when the information is being asked for. In a way, my amendment does that. I was rather comforted by the DPPRC’s report, in that it seemed to me that my amendment at least sought to make clear how the DPPRC’s recommendation in relation to the Bill might be met. I am implying in what I say that I can see how the amendment is not right; we could go further.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank my noble friend for that clarification. I think that we are talking about the same thing, but we should have the opportunity to explore it between Committee and Report. Certainly, we will talk about the DPPRC issues. It is understood that the powers as currently set out need to be looked at.

[Lord Lansley]

I am again grateful to my noble friend. On the basis of what I have explained, there is a conversation to be had and I hope that we may be able to resolve this satisfactorily before Report. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 32 withdrawn.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, first, as we are entering Report, I declare my interests as president of the Healthcare Supplies Association and of GS1, the barcoding organisation.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I make it clear that in supporting the amendment, the Opposition support the core purpose of the Bill. The recent fines imposed by the Competition and Markets Authority on two companies, which essentially exposed a loophole, left the Government with no option but to act—we agree with that. I have to say that it is interesting to note that the powers that the Government have taken upon themselves in the Bill will give them draconian influence over drug prices in future.

The Bill allows the Government to institute price controls. It states that the Government may have reached a voluntary agreement with industry over pricing but can none the less come in and impose price controls over that agreement. To cap it all, it massively extends the Government’s powers to ask for information about any health service product sold to the NHS. Such information could cover prices, discounts, rebates, revenues and profits, and could apply to millions of products every year.

It is a socialist dream of state intervention. Speaking here as a great believer in central state intervention, my heart warms to the Minister’s vigour and enthusiasm for regulation. It gives an idea of the nirvana of post-Brexit, light-touch regulation from this Government. Perhaps we should dream of EU directives in future, because this Government are so bent on their home-grown regulation.

We will come to the issue of proportionality, because many of our later amendments involve whether the Government have been proportionate. For me, this amendment is essentially about access, because I do not think you can talk about price controls on drugs without talking about patient access to innovative drugs and treatments. At the moment we are seeing an unprecedented level of rationing, both locally and nationally. Locally, clinical commissioning groups are making some really perverse decisions, ranging from cutting out health promotion programmes to being incredibly restrictive on operations and restricting access to innovative drugs.

A fairly recent report that I read by leading charities Breast Cancer Now and Prostate Cancer UK, for instance, showed that NHS cancer patients are missing out on innovative treatments that are available in any comparable country to the UK. One example is the PrEP drug. The reluctance of NHS England to fund the use of this extraordinary preventive drug in relation to the treatment of HIV is another example of the problem that we have. When the previous Labour Government set up NICE, it was designed to speed up the introduction of innovative new treatments. But since 2010, access to new drugs approved by NICE has been increasingly impeded, which has culminated in the current consultation that if a NICE-approved treatment is expected to exceed a cost of £20 million in any of the first three years of its use, NHS England can ask for a longer period for its introduction.

We also have a consultation on the introduction of a QALY threshold of £100,000 for evaluating highly specialised technologies. My understanding is that no other country in the world uses such a threshold in evaluating ultra-rare disease treatment. The almost universal view is that this form of assessment is not appropriate and would effectively stop the flow of new medicines reaching patients with rare and complex processes.

Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is right that the drugs budget cannot be open ended and that the NHS must achieve value for money—and I, too, have engaged with industry over the years in seeking to get the drug budget down. We all understand that. The tragedy is that a ground-breaking agreement reached by the last Government in 2014 with drug companies could have led to many new drugs being introduced. The pharmaceutical industry guaranteed to hold down drug costs for a five-year period and, if the costs went over the agreed limit, the industry would pay back a rebate every quarter. To date, £1.5 billion has been handed over.

I know how irritating it is to point to Scotland and Wales and say that they are doing something better—but something like the Scottish fund that has been established from the rebates to fund the introduction of new medicines would have been a preferable way in which to go forward in the situation that we have in England, where restriction after restriction is taking place in the use of better drugs for patients.

You then have to link the issue to our investment in R&D and life sciences. Sir John Bell, regius professor of medicine at the University of Oxford and chair of the Office for Strategic Coordination of Health Research, who is playing an absolutely pivotal role in this area, spelled this out recently. As he said, the last 30 years have witnessed an unprecedented number of major innovations in healthcare that have resulted in significant extensions in life expectancy and quality of life. The problem is that the National Health Service has been unable to adopt this new innovation effectively and, as a result, many improvements in healthcare have been put in jeopardy.

This is not an easy issue. Sir John Bell says—and I agree—that one problem is that our current model too often layers the cost of supporting the innovation needed to help discover new healthcare innovations on top of existing practice. So, unlike in other sectors, in the health service innovation always seems to cost money. This is a very important issue when it comes to thinking about how we can afford the kind of changes that will fall to health and social care in future.

I will also quote Keir Woods, head of oncology at the major pharmaceutical company Merck. He points to that company’s investment in the UK—20% of its global venture capital is invested in the UK—and he celebrates the UK’s position as a global power in health, with our world-class universities, centres of excellence in clinical research and some of the top medical journals, which has a positive impact on investment. We are home to 4,800 life science companies, with the largest pipeline of new discoveries in Europe. That is something to celebrate. Dr Woods says that we can build on that, but there are two provisos. First, we have to be able to secure the cream of international talent. The discussions around Brexit are very important in relation to that. Secondly, we have to increase the uptake of these new innovations in the UK.

The frustration that I and many others have is that the UK is a wonderful place for innovative and ground-breaking new treatments and drugs, but the fruits are increasingly being enjoyed by patients in other parts of the world. Currently, the UK has developed around 14% of the top 100 global medicines. That is something to celebrate—but 20 years ago we were responsible for about one-quarter of the global medicines that had been developed. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, referred to the £4 billion invested by pharma R&D. However, up to 2011 it was £5 billion—so we are seeing a deinvestment that is very much linked to the hopelessly poor record of adoption of new medicines in this country.

I know that the Minister will talk about some of the initiatives he is taking and I am sure that he will mention the accelerated access review, which aims to make the UK the fastest place for the design, development and widespread adoption of innovations. This is entirely laudable, but the problem is that this approach will take a few items and accelerate access while the NHS goes about crudely rationing a whole host of other innovations and putting at risk our life sciences, R&D investment and, of course, the quality of patient care.

That is why this amendment is so important. We support the Bill and its aims, but what has been lacking so far is any recognition by the Government that there are three planks to this. The first is better value for money in terms of drugs and health service products; the second is the quality, range and health of our life sciences and R&D investment; and the third is access to treatment by patients. So far the Government have not been prepared to grip this last issue. That is why the amendment is so important and I support it.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on this amendment, although there are later ones in my name which will allow me to say more about the way in which the Bill proposes that the Secretary of State exercises his or her duties. The idea that it is not part of government strategy—back in 2014 or now—to promote the life sciences sector through the structure of the PPRS is absurd. It is self-evidently the Government’s intention, and was in 2014. The structure of a negotiated, voluntary PPRS was designed to achieve that. The issue that has emerged since 2014 and the application of the new voluntary scheme is that the industry was looking for stability for the Government in terms of the budget; freedom to price at introduction, and action on access to new medicines. It is in that third area that there has been a lack of progress. In many ways, I agree with what noble Lords have been saying about the desirability of achieving that access. It has not been restricted since 2010, although the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, tended to construct it that way. For example, we introduced the cancer drugs fund in 2010 precisely because prior research by Mike Richards had demonstrated that patients in this country were failing to have access to new cancer medicines at the time when patients in other European countries did. It is not a new problem: it has been around a long time. The cancer drugs fund was intended to meet that gap by 2014 and the PPRS should have taken over, but it did not. After Innovation, Health and Wealth in December 2011, and the accelerated access review now, we are now seeing efforts to try to make that happen and they should be thoroughly supported.

The second limb of the amendment does not help, because it is just about access for patients to those new treatments which have been approved and recommended by NICE. That is only one part of a much wider issue about the adoption and diffusion of new technologies across the NHS more generally, often in circumstances where NICE has not been involved. I find the new consultation proposal on NHS England’s budget impact threshold something of a double-edged sword. The measure could erect another hurdle to be cleared before patients can access new medicines, and we have to avoid that. However, it may have the positive effect of encouraging NHS England, as the budget holder, and NICE, as its pharmacoeconomic evaluation mechanism, to work together with companies at an early stage to arrive at a negotiated price at an early point. That would be much to the benefit of the industry and the NHS given that we are aiming, through this legislation and beyond, to obtain patient access to medicines on reasonable terms that the NHS can afford. If the measure were used in that way, it would have the right benefit. However, I fear that this amendment, particularly its latter limb, does not take us any further in that direction.

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Moved by

[Lord Lansley]

4: Clause 3, page 2, line 32, at end insert—
“( ) After subsection (1) insert—“(1A) When making a scheme under this section for controlling the cost of health service medicines, or determining any amount to be paid to him or her, the Secretary of State must take account of any voluntary scheme in force under section 261 (powers relating to voluntary schemes), and should seek, so far as is practicable and relevant, to secure comparable effects in relation to products in the statutory scheme as would apply if those products were participating in the voluntary scheme.””

[Lord Lansley]

My Lords, even though the House has just divided, the Bill has been characterised by a substantial measure of agreement on the purposes we are trying to achieve and I am sure that will be reflected in the further amendments that are to be discussed. I neglected earlier to draw attention to the register of interests and, in particular, to my position as an adviser to MAP BioPharma, which is not itself a participant in the PPRS in any way.

Let me make the purpose of Amendment 4 clear to noble Lords. The Government, in bringing this legislation, were prompted in part by the fact that expenditure on medicines was rising somewhat faster than the Government had anticipated, the amount of the rebate being achieved by way of payment back to the Government was less than was anticipated, and the difference was, in part, explicable by virtue of the transfer of certain products into the statutory scheme. In the statutory scheme they had a price cut applicable but no rebate scheme applicable and the Government did not feel that they had the necessary power to amend the statutory scheme to make a rebate apply.

The purpose of the legislation is to make the two schemes broadly equivalent. As the Minister told the Committee, the Government’s intention was to make the revenues being rebated back to the Government from the two schemes broadly equivalent. However, in my view that would potentially have the perverse impact that certain products in the statutory scheme would end up with a much higher rebate percentage being applied to them as a consequence—or, alternatively, that products outwith the price control under the voluntary scheme, because they were introduced after December 2013, would have the price control applied to them under the statutory scheme. So a discontinuity would apply, potentially either way, by applying the broadly equivalent proportion of cost of sales being returned to the Government in the form of a rebate.

I have therefore suggested that it is a perfectly reasonable principle on the Government’s part, as we explored in Committee, to try to make the two schemes equivalent so that there cannot be gaming, as it were, by moving into one scheme rather than the other. That should be applied, as the amendment specifies, by means of asking the Government, wherever a voluntary scheme is in place—which is an important caveat—to ensure that a statutory scheme should seek, so far as is practicable and relevant, and it will not be precise, so I do not think it can be regarded as too rigid, to make it so that the equivalent effect is applied at a product level: not at a company level or a whole-scheme level, but in relation to the individual products. Individual products, whether they are in the voluntary scheme or the statutory scheme, should expect to have broadly the same overall treatment applied to them. The net effect would therefore be that the schemes will become equivalent and the scope for gaming will be reduced. I hope that explains the amendment and I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has raised a very important point. For me, the question is: what is the future of the voluntary scheme? Over the years it has clearly served its purpose well. In Committee, the noble Lord acknowledged the benefit of the PPRS, which is the voluntary scheme, and said that it showed how Government and industry could work together to develop solutions. I draw the noble Lord’s attention to a piece written by Sir John Bell recently. When talking about what we have just discussed, the dynamic between access, cost and life-science investment and the problem the NHS has in investing in innovation, he said:

“A solution for both parties is necessary and must come from healthcare systems and innovators working more closely together, sharing risk and cost and attempting to use innovation to take cost out of health systems wherever possible”.


This is a wider issue than drug costs and PPRS, but it would be good to hear about the context in which the Minister thinks a potential new PPRS is going to be agreed. Many in industry think that the Government are not really committed to a new PPRS. It would be interesting to get some sense from the Minister as to where he thinks things are going.

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[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Lord makes an excellent point. Clearly, as the budget holder, NHS England ultimately must be a key part of negotiations for any future schemes. We intend that any future voluntary scheme should be established through negotiation in this way, but linking the payment mechanisms would inevitably place a restriction on that freedom.

I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue and I hope I have reassured him on equivalence, while also explaining why I believe the amendment goes too far by focusing specifically on products. On that basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lansley]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his helpful response setting out the Government’s continuing position. The exchange with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was also useful. I said in debate on the previous group that earlier engagement and development of NHS England’s role in trying to assess what is a reasonable price and what is the value proposition in relation to new medicines that are being adopted by the NHS would be helpful at the same time in trying to develop the shape of a new voluntary scheme. I am sure that the industry, having been frustrated in the outcome of the 2014 PPRS, would want the principles for 2019 to be broadly similar: freedom of pricing and introduction; the ability to modulate prices in the way my noble friend referred to; the Government’s desire for a stable overall budgetary outcome; but also access to new medicines and diffusion across the NHS.

If we are going to meet those principles together—and balance them, as we discussed in the last group—NHS England should be at the table when the scheme is being designed. I am sure it was frustrating in the previous scheme that Scotland and Wales had identifiable resources for access to new medicines and NHS England had those resources but not in an identifiable form. It would be helpful for the new scheme to see the rebate, if it is rebated scheme, being specifically directed towards promoting access. I do not think that that is an unreasonable objective.

That said, the Minister has very kindly reiterated that the Government consider it desirable to have broadly equivalent proportions of sales in the two schemes being rebated and not disaggregated to product level. I can see that if you disaggregate to product level, you have a problem with price modulation between products for companies. That is a practical issue. However, as an inevitable consequence of the Government’s approach to equivalence, the schemes will not be the same. Generally speaking, once the legislation goes through, the statutory scheme will be less attractive.

That may well be the Government’s intention. Indeed, the Government may well like to have a situation where they can encourage companies to provide the necessary payments back through the rebate in the voluntary scheme with the threat of putting them into the statutory scheme. That might be something that the Government have occasionally thought of doing. I do not think that it is a desirable situation. The effort—I put it at no more than that—to define the equivalence of the two schemes should be a continuing effort. I know my noble friend the Minister has that in mind. It is not his intention to create two schemes that diverge in ways that could potentially be difficult for the industry if the Government were so minded in that direction.

It has been a useful debate but I certainly do not want to pursue it any further. We have had two opportunities to explore important issues that, frankly, we should attempt to resolve in the design of the new scheme rather than in legislation. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 4.

Amendment 4 withdrawn.

Moved by

[Lord Lansley]

5: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—
“Report to ParliamentAfter section 264 of the National Health Service Act 2006 (statutory schemes: supplementary) insert—“264ZZA Report to Parliament(1) Where the Secretary of State enters into a voluntary scheme under section 261, 263 or 264A, or makes a statutory scheme under section 263 or 264, he or she must lay a report before each House of Parliament, setting out how the scheme concerned will enable the Secretary of State to fulfil his or her statutory duties under section 266(4).(2) The report must also cover the impact of the scheme on the statutory duties of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence under section 233 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 (general duties).””

[Lord Lansley]

Amendment 5 refers back to the discussion we had on Amendment 3 about the duties that the Secretary of State must meet in relation to the scheme. This is another aspect of that but a more particular one.

In Committee, I explored the idea that the Secretary of State should pursue through the voluntary scheme—or indeed the statutory scheme, as necessary—pricing that was related to value. There were a number of criteria for what value is. In response to that, my noble friend said that many of the aspects that constitute value are reflected in existing statutory duties. For example, in Section 266(4) of the National Health Service Act, which is concerned with the price control mechanisms we are amending through this legislation, the Government are required to bear in mind,

“the need for medicinal products to be available to the health service on reasonable terms”—

the value proposition and access proposition that we have just been debating—and,

“the costs of research and development”,

which of course are important to the industry in promoting innovation. We do not need to replicate those. But my noble friend the Minister also said that there were other statutory duties: for example, that under Section 233 of the Health and Social Care Act NICE is required to have regard to,

“the broad balance between the benefits and costs of provision … the degree of need … and … the desirability of promoting innovation”—

all of which are indeed very much part of the overall value proposition. But because they are statutory duties relating to NICE, they are not necessarily factors that the Secretary of State must have regard to in the formulation of the PPRS, which is what we are dealing with here.

The purpose of Amendment 5 is to say that there are these existing statutory duties applicable to the Secretary of State. Separately, there are statutory duties applicable to the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. The Secretary of State, when making a scheme and reporting on such to Parliament, should state how those statutory duties, both in respect of the Secretary of State and as they might impact on NICE, could be met through the design of the scheme. In that sense, it is a mechanism for trying to ensure that the value proposition gets to the heart of the assessment of what the price control mechanism should seek to achieve. I beg to move.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his amendment and for raising the issue of reporting requirements and how that relates to the responsibilities of NICE.

Under the current PPRS, the Department of Health regularly publishes information relating to the operation of the voluntary scheme. For a future statutory scheme, as my noble friend is aware, the illustrative regulations, which we have published alongside the Bill to assist in scrutinising the provisions, already include regulations for both the statutory scheme, in Regulation 32, and the information regulations, in Regulation 14, for an annual review of the regulations and a requirement to publish our report of each review. Our illustrative regulations require an annual review to,

“set out the objectives intended to be achieved … assess the extent to which these objectives are achieved; and … assess whether those objectives remain appropriate”.

These requirements will be tested through the consultation on the regulations and we will of course take account of those views.

I assure my noble friend that that review would take into account the duties under Section 266(4), which currently are,

“the need for medicinal products to be available for the health service on reasonable terms, and … the costs of research and development”.

Of course, subject to further consideration of the Bill, there may be further duties. I accept that reporting is an important principle but setting out the requirements in primary legislation is too restrictive. Over time, it is to be expected that both the statutory scheme and the information requirements will be amended through their respective regulations to reflect changing circumstances. It is essential that the review and reporting arrangements be able to be similarly flexed, so that they remain appropriate to the schemes in operation. My noble friend has suggested that we report every time there is a new voluntary or statutory scheme. I believe the annual reviews as set out in the illustrative regulations would provide more frequent review than the amendment proposes, at least for the statutory scheme.

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I hope I have been able to address the issues that my noble friend has raised. I know he is a passionate proponent of the importance of value-based pricing, and look forward to continuing to work with him to see how those considerations could be included not only in future NICE assessments but in the operation of any pricing control Bill. On that basis, I ask him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lansley]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I entirely take his point about the structure of reporting and review proposed through the regulations, which I will not necessarily pursue. On the second limb, however, the duties relating to NICE, there is a gap. The reality is that the development of a value proposition through the structure of the PPRS, or outcome-based pricing—that may be the next iteration, to try to take out some of the complexities associated with the broader value-based pricing structures that were consulted upon—means having a direct relationship between the pricing structure under the PPRS and the ability of NICE to make recommendations that drugs are cost-effective. We have just had that debate and I will not go through it all again.

At the very least, to say that these things are unrelated therefore seems wrong. The Government should at least look at these regulations and say, “Given that there is a relationship between the structure of PPRS and the price control mechanism as it works—or the rebate mechanism, if there is one—NICE’s ability to do its statutory job should be perhaps discussed, recognised, reviewed and reported upon”. Having made that point, I know from the very helpful discussions we have had in Committee and separately that my noble friend is actively looking to promote that kind of understanding. I will leave it in his capable hands and seek leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 5 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Lansley]

7: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
“Price control: exemptions
After section 264 of the National Health Service Act 2006 (statutory schemes: supplementary) insert—“264ZA Price control: exemptionsIn circumstances where the Secretary of State considers that the price or security of supply of any health service medicine or medical supply, or category of health service medicines or supplies, may be determined most appropriately through an open and competitive tender process, the Secretary of State may exempt that product, or category products, from the application of the scheme.””

[Lord Lansley]

My Lords, I am grateful for the further opportunity to touch on an interesting issue which we discussed in Committee. On Report, I have proposed a different amendment that tries to meet some of the considerations that were quite properly raised in Committee. This relates to where the method of procurement for a branded medicine or product to which the statutory scheme would apply would be through a tender process and there would be an expectation that the best available price would be obtained through that process. I completely accept that previously we were looking at possibly exempting tender processes generally. The Minister quite rightly said that sometimes the tender process is used not to secure the best price, but to secure supply or procure products which are not directly comparable and where price competition would not be expected to be available.

I completely understand that, so this amendment says not that the Secretary of State under any circumstances is obliged to exempt a tender which has delivered a price outcome but that he may do so. Why do I think it is useful to do that? It is because there will sometimes be products where, for reasons of security of supply, it is important to undertake a tender process. At the moment, all companies in the statutory scheme or the voluntary scheme will have the implications of the PPRS pricing and rebate structure applying to them. As we have heard previously, the way that applies to individual products may be subject to price modulation depending upon how the company overall is affected by the scheme. It may therefore have a distorting effect on products that are offered through the tender. That is undesirable. We should want the tender process to be as transparent as possible and the price, supply and other considerations of the tender to be as self-contained as possible. That is perfectly possible to achieve if the Secretary of State has the discretion to exempt a tender process from the scheme.

As the Minister told us in Committee, the Government intend that framework agreements agreed before the regulations come into force will be exempted in any case. This amendment would helpfully give the Secretary of State the ability to exempt specific tenders from the application of the scheme. I do not want to anticipate too much, but the Minister may respond that the Secretary of State has the power to do that. If he says that the Government will actively assess where we may use such discretion to make it clear that tenders should be conducted in that way, I would be content. My noble friend instanced von Willebrand factor, where there are very similar products which are not necessarily competing on price. There is a general problem with plasma protein therapies because the cost structure that applies to them does not reflect the cost structure over the life of a product as it is reflected in patented, branded medicines generally. There is a good case for looking at an exemption in relation to products which have that high level of fixed cost rather than applying the price control and rebate in the way that happens now. I hope my noble friend will be able to say positive things about how we can maintain competition in the tender process and recognise the cost structures of certain medicines, because there is likely to be the application of the same principles to those products whether or not the company has opted into the voluntary scheme. Therefore the Government should be more willing under the statutory scheme to apply exemptions to those companies which have not opted into the voluntary scheme. I beg to move.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, as I mentioned in the debate on Amendment 3, I support this amendment because it gives the Secretary of State a bit more flexibility to take account of the specific circumstances of a company with very high fixed costs, in the interest of making sure that we have security of supply and patient access to the particular products that it produces. I do not think it undermines any of the objectives of the Bill in any way, and because of that, I hope that we will hear something encouraging from the Minister.

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[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thought I had, when I talked about taking into account the differing R&D costs, which I think was the substance of the point made by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. We have to take into account both getting a good price and the R&D costs, and that needs to be reflected within a statutory scheme, and would clearly apply to the case in point.

[Lord Lansley]

I am grateful to my noble friend and completely understand that at this stage it would be inappropriate to try and itemise in any way how the Secretary of State’s discretion to exempt products or categories of products could be used. I am grateful for what my noble friend said because it is clear that while some companies opt into the voluntary scheme, we will arrive at a situation where, in effect—force majeure—other companies with other products are in the statutory scheme without any choice in the matter. They should come out of this debate with the confidence that they can make their case to the Government. We have seen some really good examples, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Biosimilars clearly have a case to make about the structure of the scheme and how it applies to them in relation to this.

As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, mentioned, the cost structure of plasma product therapies and things of that kind is very different from the cost structure of many other branded medicines that enjoy their patent life. To that extent, recognising their cost structure might require an exemption from the PPRS as it stands at the moment. We cannot just seek some of those products, particularly some of the blood products we are talking about, in isolation in Britain. There is a limited supply. We import them from abroad, and there are sometimes higher prices in other markets. It is absolutely necessary for us sometimes to say, for security of supply reasons, that this product, this tender process or this framework agreement for the delivery of products of this kind is exempted from the PPRS in the future. It does not automatically follow that they will be included. However, I gather from what my noble friend says that the power is there to do this and that this will be considered, as and when, on its merits. On that basis I certainly seek leave to withdraw Amendment 7.

Amendment 7 withdrawn.

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[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his amendments. I shall speak to government Amendments 9, 11, 25 and 26 relating to information notices and appeals, and will refer to Amendments 8, 10 and 12 tabled by the noble Lord.

We had a good discussion in Committee about the information powers. My noble friend Lord Lansley proposed information notices with a right of appeal; the noble Lord, Lord Warner, proposed to place certain restrictions around the Government’s ability to collect information on profits; and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, proposed that those restrictions be in the form of “triggers”. As I hope noble Lords will know from the individual meetings that I have had the chance to have with them, I have been listening carefully to what has been said and I am conscious of the importance of proportionality in the Bill. In particular, I have reflected on the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that we may be able to combine these different ideas into a workable solution that would deliver the sort of safeguards that I believe noble Lords are seeking. The government amendments that I have tabled would do precisely that.

There was broad agreement in Committee that the Government should be able to collect the information required to reimburse community pharmacies and to operate our cost-control schemes for medicines as effectively as possible. That includes straightforward information about sales income actually received or the amount actually paid in relation to health service products at each point in the supply chain. We already collect much of this information now under a mix of voluntary and statutory arrangements, including scheme M, scheme W and the community pharmacy margin survey.

We have discussed previously that our current arrangements need to be strengthened. The changes proposed by the Bill would allow us to expand routine collections to inform reimbursement prices. They would enable us to use data from more companies, make the reimbursement of community pharmacies fairer and more robust and set reimbursement prices for more products. Setting reimbursement prices leads to more competition—whose merits we have discussed—as pharmacies are incentivised to source the products as cheaply as possible, allowing them to retain a margin. That in turn helps us to keep the drugs bill down.

However, I have heard the concerns raised by noble Lords in relation to the collection of information on the profits associated with particular products. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, spoke about his concern that it would be burdensome for the pharmaceutical industry to apportion certain operating, development or manufacturing costs to individual products. The government amendments that I have tabled would address that concern. Amendments 11, 25 and 26 would introduce the requirement in regulations for the Secretary of State to issue an information notice for the collection of information on the costs incurred by a producer in connection with the manufacturing, distribution or supply of UK health service products. The exception to that requirement would be information on the amounts actually paid for purchasing health service products from an organisation in the supply chain. As I set out earlier, our current routine collections already cover the acquisition costs of the products themselves, as distinct from the overheads incurred by an organisation in supplying them.

Amendment 9 makes clear that in order to collect information in relation to certain types of profit made by suppliers, the Government would by necessity need to collect information on certain costs. I know that the collection of information on profit has been of concern to some Peers. Taken together, these amendments therefore make clear that the Government would be required to issue an information notice before they could collect particular types of profit-related information.

I have sympathy for the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that would restrict the term “profit” to aggregate UK profit. However, this approach may mean that we would be unable to collect information on the purchase costs and sales revenues that we currently collect and use to inform the reimbursement of community pharmacies and ensure that our reimbursement arrangements deliver value for money. I hope he would be willing to support the Government’s approach, which addresses the concerns raised by the pharmaceutical industry without undermining our ability to reimburse community pharmacies effectively. It might be worth adding at this point that I have had the opportunity to meet a couple of representative groups and explain the approach that we were taking in order to provide proportionality, and that approach was welcomed by those groups.

I should point out that in drafting Amendment 11 the Government have omitted to reflect that under the voluntary scheme, on a routine basis, we already obtain information from companies on profits and costs, including the costs of manufacture, R&D and distribution. This is company-level information, not product-level information. I will therefore bring forward a small amendment to Amendment 11 at Third Reading to reflect this, which would enable the Government to obtain that information on a routine basis under a future statutory scheme. I believe this would also be in line with the intention behind Amendment 8 from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which distinguishes between company-level or aggregated information on the one hand and information on individual products on the other.

I turn to the circumstances in which the Government may wish to collect information on costs via an information notice. In Committee we spoke about triggers, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has tabled amendments along those lines. I have thought about this carefully but have concluded that we cannot set particular conditions for when we issue information notices. First, we cannot predict all the circumstances where this or a future Government may need to investigate further the value for money of a particular product or supply chain. Secondly, we may want to issue an information notice when we have an information gap and cannot properly assess whether a product or the supply chain is delivering good value for money. It would be a Catch-22 situation if we were to have triggers for an information notice in legislation that would allow us to issue an information notice only when we already had the evidence. I trust noble Lords will understand the Government’s concerns about triggers for an information notice.

However, in Committee I said I would provide examples of when the Government may wish to collect information about costs. These include where companies in the statutory scheme ask for a price increase for a particular product and we want to assess whether that is justified; where we have concerns about the high price of an unbranded generic medicine and want to assess whether the prices are warranted; or where the Government have no visibility over costs in the supply chain and want to assure ourselves that the market is working effectively. These are only some examples but I hope they illustrate where the Government may benefit from more information than that which is collected routinely to run our community pharmacy reimbursement system and to operate our cost-control schemes for medicines. The information notice would of course clearly set out what information would need to be provided, the form and manner in which the information would need to be supplied, the period of time that that information would need to cover and the date by which that information would need to be supplied. It would inform those issued with an information notice of their right of appeal.

The government amendments would introduce a right of appeal for those served with an information notice, an important point made by my noble friend Lord Lansley in Committee. UK producers could appeal an information notice if they believed the request was beyond the powers in the NHS Act 2006. That is in addition to the existing appeal mechanism against any enforcement decision made by the Government when a company refuses to submit information.

I thank noble Lords, especially my noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Lords Lord Warner and Lord Hunt, for helping to shape these amendments. I hope that through the government amendments I have reflected the concerns raised in Committee, and that the House will agree them. I also hope I have addressed the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and I ask him to withdraw his amendment and instead support the Government’s amendments.

[Lord Lansley]

My Lords, I reciprocate my noble friend’s thanks. In Committee he said he was going to think very carefully about the subject of information and the circumstances in which it is required from companies. Having done so and engaged us in a conversation about it, he has come forward with an amendment that seems specifically designed to meet the concerns raised in Committee. From my point of view, and this is very simply put, there must be a general scheme to acquire information, but when one goes beyond it the company has a right to expect that the information notice must be specific, itemised and additional, and that, as is now provided for, there should be a right of appeal in relation to that. My noble friend has very kindly listened and brought forward an amendment to do in substance the things that we were looking for, so I am grateful to him.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I thank the Minister. I am grateful for his amendments, because he clearly listened to the debate. I just want to encourage him to go that little bit further. I am glad that we have a government amendment on Third Reading, because that means that we can continue this debate: his amendment is amendable, which is always the issue for noble Lords on Third Reading.

The Minister said on my Amendment 12 that he was anxious not to put particular conditions into the Bill, but my reading of his Amendment 11 is that he imposes particular conditions. Its first four lines state:

“Regulations under this section must require the Secretary of State to give a UK producer an information notice if information is required in respect of the costs incurred by the producer in connection with the manufacturing, distribution or supply”.


All I want to do in my amendment is add the word “access”. I am just taking his elegant drafting and adding a bit to it. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 8.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

3rd reading (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Thursday 23rd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O’Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, there are two sets of amendments within this grouping. The first comprises small amendments relating to the circumstances in which the Government would be required to provide producers with an information notice. The second relates to the arrangements required for implementation of the legislation in Northern Ireland.

I turn, first, to Amendments 1 and 2. Amendment 1 clarifies that an information notice is required in respect of the costs incurred by a company in connection with the manufacturing, distribution or supply of a particular UK health service product. Amendment 2 is a technical drafting change to further clarify the intent of this clause and the type of transaction being contemplated.

On Report, I tabled amendments to the information requirements that would necessitate the Government issuing an information notice if they wanted UK producers to provide certain cost and profit information. This was in response to reasonable concerns raised by several noble Lords that attributing costs and profits to individual products, as opposed to simple aggregate-level data, would be burdensome for companies. The amendments that I have brought forward today reinforce these information notice procedures by clarifying that they apply to cost and profit information relating to individual products but not to aggregate-level data across a portfolio of products supplied by a company to the health service.

As I explained on Report, we already collect cost, sales and profit information on an annual basis under our voluntary scheme, the PPRS. This information is supplied at an aggregate level across a range of branded medicines supplied by a company to the health service. Clearly we need to be able to continue to collect these data in a routine way in order to maintain the voluntary scheme, and indeed to collect a similar type of routine aggregate-level company information in any future statutory scheme.

These amendments enable us to continue with the current approach to collecting company-level data in a non-bureaucratic way while, critically, ensuring that the information notice procedure, which was a concern of noble Lords, is focused on the area which we know is the greatest burden to companies—providing cost information on a product-by-product basis. I am pleased to say that my officials have discussed these amendments with the ABPI, the trade body for the pharmaceutical industry, which is content that they address industry concerns.

I now turn to Amendments 3, 4, 5 and 6. As noble Lords know, most of the Bill extends to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, with some elements extending only to England and Wales or only to Scotland. A legislative consent Motion is required from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for the matters in the Bill that are devolved.

I am bringing forward these technical amendments to address the fact that the Northern Ireland Assembly was not able to complete the passage of its legislative consent Motion on the Bill before it dissolved, although significant progress had been made, with the relevant committee having given approval. Our amendments therefore seek to change the Bill to enable the Northern Ireland components to be commenced separately through regulations. These components of the Bill will be commenced only after legislative consent has been secured.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I do not propose to detain the House. I merely wish to thank my noble friend the Minister for the further clarification that Amendments 1 and 2, in particular, give to Clause 9.

I was among those who raised a concern. Although the industry completely understood that in order to make the PPRS effective there was a requirement for a scheme for the acquisition of data in aggregate, as my noble friend described, the powers would have enabled there to be a lot of demands for information which went beyond what had previously been required and which had the potential to be very intrusive. Under those circumstances, an information notice system, with proper details supplied to companies and with a potential appeal right, was required. We discussed that and I am very grateful to the Minister for taking it on board and putting in place something which I think will give considerable reassurance to the industry that the scheme will not be as burdensome as it could have been.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches are also happy to support the amendments. Like the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, I have no intention of detaining the House with long-winded thanks. However, I want to voice my recognition that the Minister, in his new role, has both understood and responded to the issues raised on the Opposition and Cross Benches about the shortcomings of the Bill, which had been through the House of Commons without anybody noticing or trying to amend its unintended consequences, rather like the Article 50 Bill that we debated in this House on Monday and Tuesday.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the further thought that he has given to the amendment that your Lordships passed at an earlier stage. I am also grateful to him for his courtesy in showing me the amendments before he went forward with them; I very much appreciate that. I accept the Government’s arguments for the new approach that they have provided on the set of concerns that we had across the House about the adequacy of the provisions in the Bill on the life sciences industry and on speedy access to NICE-approved drugs. I accept their arguments that the original amendment was to some extent too restrictive on their freedom of manoeuvre when they need to act on unreasonable high prices. The Government have skilfully met the concerns of your Lordships’ House and I am very pleased to be able to support the amendment.

While I am on my feet, I will also thank the Minister for the courteous way in which he has listened to concerns throughout this Bill and taken the issues away, considered them with his officials and come back and tried to respond to many of the concerns. Across the Benches of this House, we are grateful for the way in which he has conducted the discussions during the passage of the Bill.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend is on the Front Bench to see this Bill safely through. I share with colleagues an appreciation of how he and officials from the department have worked consensually, carefully and considerately to try to make the Bill as good as we can make it. I welcome the amendments in lieu; they point to a sensible way forward in relation to the consultation on the statutory scheme. I would ask that my noble friend is equally clear that, in the negotiations leading to any voluntary scheme, Ministers will have regard not only to their statutory duties, as we have discussed, but to these considerations reflected in this amendment. One purpose of the Bill is to make a voluntary and a statutory scheme entirely consonant, one with the other.

The only other point that I would make is that, of course, when one passes legislation it is about not just the law but the administration that follows and accompanies it. In that context, it is important that Ministers take these powers, but it is equally important that in the administration of those powers, not least in working with NHS England and NICE, they work in the same constructive fashion to see that the impact on the life sciences industry and the accessibility of the best available treatments for patients, at a price representing value for money, are integral to the purposes of the legislation. I hope that they will equally be part of the further action that the Government take with NHS England and NICE to ensure that, however they manage the budgetary impacts as they must, they do so in a way that has the interests of patients and the country at heart.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his hard work on the Bill and his helpfulness. I have one question. As this is a global matter, how can the Government assure us that the prices of drugs will come down?