Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th January 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

It is a pleasure to start this, the second and concluding session in Committee. We have reached Clause 6, which relates to the provision of information. In the 2006 Act as it stands, there is a wide-ranging requirement to provide information under the statutory scheme for medicinal products. However, in the Bill the Government have resolved to go rather wider in the scope of the information-gathering power. We will come on to some of the reasons why I think that process of gathering information more rigorously is necessary and why I support it.

Happily, we are in this Bill discussing legislation that is, in principle, supported by the industry—it recognises the importance of securing a good relationship between the Government and the industry in determining the right pricing structure. This is particularly true because, in the past, under the voluntary scheme and statutory scheme, the information-gathering capacity was built into the schemes themselves.

In addition, there is the issue of gathering information relating to the reimbursement of pharmacies under what I think is known as scheme W. I completely understand why it is necessary. I remember that, back in about 2006—I am not sure which of our noble friends, if I may be so bold, was in ministerial office at that time—the issue that arose with pharmacies was the lack of contemporaneous data that enabled the gap between the wholesale purchasing and the reimbursement price on dispensed drugs to be determined accurately. At that time, I was the shadow spokesman, and whistleblowers came to me to tell me that the pharmacy industry was taking anything up to £500 million a year more, by way of its margin over its purchasing of drugs, than was allowed for in the global sum negotiated with the department. That was investigated by the National Audit Office and the whole system was tightened up.

We are, however, still not where we should be. On Monday, we debated the idea that if one ends up hearing about purchasing only from large organisations, one will get it wrong because one might leave out the fact that small pharmacies cannot necessarily purchase at quite so fine a price. However, unless I am very much mistaken, and contrary to that, if you gather information only from small pharmacies—even if they have a collective purchasing operation—and leave out the very biggest pharmacy chains, the chances are that you may be overestimating the wholesale price. Of course, there are some integrated operations, and getting that information from an integrated supply chain is extremely difficult.

The starting proposition for this debate is that there is a need to broaden the information-gathering power. Amendment 34, in my name, is consequential, but Amendment 32 is about what happens once one goes down the route of gathering quite so much information, potentially. I do not seek to amend the purposes that are set out, as the Committee will see, in Clause 6(3).

In Clause 6, there is a long list of the reasons why the Secretary of State might wish to gather information and the purposes required for that. It is potentially necessary for the information to be gathered. As a consequence, I do not wish to change all that list but at the moment, compared to most of the analogous information-gathering requirements for government laid upon industry, there is no safeguarding process. There is no process which, in itself, requires the Government to be much clearer about the information they require, the purposes for which they require it, the character of the use to which it will be put or, since there is a power to share information, with whom that information will be shared. Amendment 32 sets out to do this.

Under the voluntary or statutory schemes, there can be a scheme for gathering information that does not necessarily require information notices. Amendment 32 essentially says that in any circumstances where the Secretary of State does not receive the information the Government are looking for under a scheme, including presumably scheme W and others, there should be a power for the Secretary of State to issue an “information notice”. But where a notice is to be issued to somebody, it would then have to say some very specific things: what is required, in what form, by when, for what purpose, with whom it will be shared and about giving a right of appeal. There may inevitably be circumstances where there is a belief on the part of industry that the information being sought is not required—that the Government are unnecessarily hoovering it up, as it were. It may have a particular set of reasons of its own to try to resist this.

This amendment would give industry an opportunity to seek appeal if the Government are being disproportionate. Of course, it would have a right to judicial review but it would be much easier if this were governed under statute by way of simple appeal to the General Regulatory Chamber, as happens in a number of other areas where there is a requirement to gather information from people. I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to an understanding that, notwithstanding the general support of industry, concerns have been properly raised about the scope and extent of the information-gathering power the Government propose in the Bill. I hope he will recognise that the amendment would reassure the industry that it would be properly informed about what information is required, and would have some recourse if it objects to that information being taken. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to express some sympathy with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I am not sure whether he has got the terms of his amendment right; my noble friend Lord Warner has an amendment in the next group which, in a sense, covers the same ground.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, knows that I am sceptical about whether these powers should be extended to non-medicines but the issue here is that they are very broad, as he says. As far as I can see, there are absolutely no safeguards regarding how these powers will be used. The safeguards are not in the Bill or the 2006 Act, and certainly not in the draft regulations as far as I can see. We are looking for the Minister to table amendments on Report to build in thresholds or safeguards to stop the department simply undertaking fishing expeditions. That would give us some sense of proportionality. I am not sure whether the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Warner, have got their amendments quite right but I am certain there will be a consensus for building in some safeguards over the use of these powers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, it is nice to be back with you again today to finish the Bill’s Committee stage. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley for tabling his amendments, and for his support for the Bill’s ultimate purpose: more rigorous gathering of data to support voluntary and statutory schemes and pharmacy reimbursements. That support is very welcome. I have huge sympathy with his argument. It is because we agree with the need properly to set out the information powers that we have published two sets of illustrative regulations to help Parliament scrutinise the information powers in the Bill. Reflecting on those, I believe that I can reassure my noble friend about the concerns behind his amendment.

I start by addressing the general proposition that a UK producer should be provided with an information notice every time the Secretary of State seeks to require information from that producer. Many noble Lords have expressed concerns about the regulatory burden the Bill might impose, and the amendment could exacerbate those worries. Regarding routine information collection, the Government already collect information on prices and volumes every quarter to support the operation of the PPRS and statutory schemes, and to inform reimbursement prices for community pharmacies. The Bill would expand routine collections to inform reimbursement prices to enable us—as my noble friend pointed out—to use data from more companies, to make the reimbursement of community pharmacies fairer and more robust, and to set reimbursement prices for more products.

For the purposes of requiring information on a routine basis, the illustrative regulations clearly set out what information would need to be provided, the form in which it would need to be supplied, the period of time it would need to cover and the date by which it would need to be supplied. Where information is required on a non-routine basis, the illustrative regulations demonstrate that the Secretary of State would notify a UK producer of that request. The regulations set out the notice that the Secretary of State would give a UK producer, the form in which the notice would be given and the type of information that would be required. The regulations would also require the Secretary of State to inform UK producers of the time period the information would need to cover and the time within which the information would be required.

Turning to the purposes for which information can be required and the persons to whom confidential and commercially sensitive information can be disclosed, I reassure the Committee that the Government take these matters very seriously. We have sought clearly to set out in the Bill the limited purposes for which information can be required and the persons to whom confidential or commercially sensitive information can be disclosed in relation to those purposes. The Bill makes it clear that information can be required for only three purposes: first, to reimburse community pharmacies and GPs; secondly, to support the PPRS and the cost-control provision in the NHS Act 2006; and thirdly, to ensure that healthcare products provide value for money.

The information that we would collect under the first two purposes would generally involve routine collections, to operate the reimbursement system and our voluntary and statutory schemes. However, assuring ourselves that products or the supply chain provide value for money would be done through ad-hoc collections. This is where we get to the critical issue of thresholds. Those collections would be triggered by evidence from existing data that there may be an issue with pricing—for example, when the reimbursement price we set in primary care is increasing without obvious reasons—or patients, clinicians, commissioners or the industry raising concerns, for example about price rises without obvious reasons or access problems. I hope that that makes it clear that this is not intended for fishing expeditions, to use the expression of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Have I missed this? Are those qualifications for the use of the provisions set out in the Bill?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

They are not. I am using this opportunity to set out on the record the reasons why information would be sought.

The Bill is also clear about with whom confidential and commercially sensitive information can be shared. This is restricted to other Government departments, the devolved Administrations and specific NHS bodies and persons providing services to any of these bodies. The information can be disclosed to these bodies only for the purposes set out in the Bill—which I just reprised. The Bill also enables the Secretary of State to share information with trade bodies, and Regulation 11 of the illustrative regulations sets out the trade bodies with whom the Secretary of State might want to share information, and the type of information that he would want to share with them.

The illustrative regulations currently limit the information that we can share with trade bodies to aggregated data that cannot be led back to a specific company. Furthermore, the Bill enables the Government to prescribe in regulations any other person to whom the Secretary of State can disclose information. The flexibility provided by this regulation-making power allows the Secretary of State to disclose information to other persons who may become involved in payment or reimbursement for health service medicines, medical supplies or other related products, including, for example, in circumstances of regional devolution. Again, it would be possible to disclose confidential or commercially sensitive information to these persons only for the purposes set out in the Bill. We will have further opportunities to discuss these powers of disclosure when we discuss the amendments relating to the report of the DPRRC. In summary, we would not be able to disclose information to bodies not listed in the Bill or prescribed in regulations, so the legislation will restrict to whom we can disclose information.

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[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

I am not an expert in this area, but I am puzzled. If it is that difficult to identify, how come the Times managed it in its expose? It did not seem very difficult or complex. The Times found drugs that had come out of patent and were available on a generic basis and for which the company that bought the patent increased the cost by staggering amounts. You do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to alight upon that. I do not know which way to go on this debate. My noble friend worries about fishing expeditions, and he is right, but I am even more worried about the NHS being ripped off for inordinate amounts of money by people whose corporate responsibility polices omit the word “ethics”. I asked once before why none of the current audit processes inside the health service exposed this until the Times brought it to public attention. There may be a mass of information, but I would have thought that these things could quite easily be identified. I may be wrong because, as I said, I am not an expert in this very complex area, but those points need to be answered. The problem was identified. We have this Bill because we know that the current system is not working. Even though people in the various systems in the NHS were reporting their concerns, no action was taken for quite a long time. It certainly justifies the legislation. The Delegated Powers Committee expressed its concerns about whether the legislation is right, and I do not profess to be qualified to rule on that, but my major concern is about the ability of some companies to rip off the NHS.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, my noble friend is right because he goes to the heart of the argument about this Bill. I think we have all said that we support the core aim, which is to deal with branded products becoming generics and the issues that were identified. The question is whether the Bill is a proportionate response to that and what impact it will have on future investment in this country.

I have been wracking my brains to puzzle out why this was first legislated for in 1977. My noble friend will remember that that was the time of the prices and incomes policy. Lady Williams of Crosby and my esteemed noble friend Lord Hattersley were Secretaries of State for Prices and Consumer Protection. I would not be at all surprised if it had something to do with that. I have to say that it was not altogether successful as a policy, and I am not sure that it is a great precedent for the Minister to rely on now. Certainly, in 1979 the electorate did not think that it was a very successful policy, that is for sure.

The only point I want to put to the Minister is this: I think there is a consensus in the Committee that there needs to be some trigger mechanism. We have had elements of that. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, proposed an amendment that included appeals. He suggested what would trigger action, which was very helpful. In his amendment, my noble friend suggested another approach. The Delegated Powers Committee is concerned about the general terms of this clause. It said:

“We consider the general power to be inappropriate unless the Minister is able to explain why it is not feasible to specify the further bodies to whom information may be disclosed on the face of the Bill, and why it is not feasible to limit the kinds of bodies to whom disclosure may be made”.


That picks up the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and I agree with him about NHS bodies,

The question is this. The only satisfactory safeguards will be in the Bill. This House has no influence on regulations. The Minister will know that only six or seven statutory instruments have ever been defeated, so regulations in themselves provide very little safeguard. This is our only opportunity to provide safeguards in the Bill. Essentially, the choice for us is to press on with amendments at Report or to come to some agreement with the Government about what is appropriate. That we need something in the Bill is not in doubt.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank noble Lords for that very good debate, which has again got to the heart of why we are all here. While we are reflecting on the 1970s, we have an industrial strategy again, so who knows? The wheel turns.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his amendment and understand that he seeks to minimise the burden on businesses; we agree with him on that aim. However, the amendment would have serious unintended consequences. I will set out why I believe that to be the case and in doing so, I hope to respond to other noble Lords’ questions.

The amendment would restrict the circumstances under which the Government could ask for information on revenues or profits accrued in connection with the manufacturing, distribution or supply of UK health service products. We have been clear throughout that the information that we seek for routine data collection does not go beyond that which would be required for tax purposes. That is the reassurance that we provide on the overall burden and how it would affect businesses. I appreciate that there is a separate question about non-routine data collection, which I will come to, but the overall intention is not to create any additional burden.

The amendment would restrict the information-gathering powers to where a specific health service product has significantly increased in price and where there are reasonable grounds to believe that the NHS is not receiving value for money. However, it would prevent us operating our cost and price control schemes. The reason for that is that the Government collect information on revenues from companies as part of the various cost and price control schemes to be able to determine the sales of those companies to the health service. This enables us to identify the savings achieved through price cuts and which, in our reformed statutory scheme, would be a prerequisite for calculating the payments due from individual companies.

The Government require this information at product level to satisfy ourselves that the terms of the scheme are being applied correctly. As noble Lords know, this model has been in operation through the PPRS for many years, and we have not heard concerns from industry about the burden that it places upon it. Indeed, it is precisely this mechanism which demonstrated to both the Government and the ABPI that the current PPRS was not operating as expected during 2016—something to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred during our previous sitting.

We had constructive discussions with the ABPI during 2016 about why the spend measured by the PPRS and used to calculate payments under the scheme had fallen, compared to the real growth in NHS spending on branded medicines, which continues to rise. Joint analysis of company data by the ABPI and the Department of Health shows that the NHS is spending more than ever on branded medicines, with spend growth in 2016 likely to be around 5.3% of the budget.

It became clear that the cap mechanism was not capturing significant areas of branded medicines spend—in particular, parallel imports. Also, some companies left to join the statutory scheme, or divested individual products from the voluntary to the statutory scheme, but this growth was not captured by the PPRS methodology. Without action, this would have led to a significant drop in income from the scheme while branded medicines spend continued to rise, which is obviously against the spirit of the agreement. After a short period of very constructive negotiation just before Christmas, we agreed a new deal with the ABPI to cover the last two years of the scheme, details of which I set out in a Written Ministerial Statement published last week, I think—it has been only three and a half weeks, but it feels longer. This shows how well industry and the Government can work together to develop and maintain voluntary arrangements, but we can do so only with the right information available.

We have provided illustrative versions of both the information regulations and the statutory scheme regulations. I emphasise that these regulations show that the Government have no intention of routinely collecting information on profits. They do, however, set out the circumstances in which the Government might want to collect information about profits.

First, the illustrative regulations set out that we would be able to ask for information related to products where a company asks for a price increase under the statutory scheme regulations. To agree such an increase, the Government require assurance that the product is no longer profitable at its current price. Information on profitability is therefore crucial to determine this.

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[Lord Warner]

I am grateful to the Minister for his detailed explanation, although I am not totally convinced. The intention was to apply my amendment to the new information requirements, not the existing routine collection. That is a drafting issue rather than an issue of principle. If I got the drafting wrong, we can sort it out.

I still think we need some kind of trigger safeguard in the Bill. I am not particularly wedded to this provision. I am quite attracted to a trigger mechanism, linked to the information notice and appeal idea suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I am certainly very happy to discuss with the Minister and other colleagues on the Committee how we might improve this.

The Minister cited the example of abuse of the PPRS system, but if there were such abuse and the Government or the department were aware of it, nothing in my amendment would stop them intervening. Those would be the reasonable grounds for expecting abuse which this trigger mechanism provides. Therefore, it would not be that the Government’s hands would be tied behind their back when they had some reasonable grounds for thinking that the NHS was being abused. The trigger mechanism does not stop intervention when there is evidence; it just requires the Secretary of State to have some prima facie evidence that some kind of abuse is going on that requires the collection of more information. That is where the ideas of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, fit in rather well. You would then specify exactly what you need to deal with the abuse you suspect is going on, but which you do not have enough information to prove. That would enable you to act way before a case came to the CMA. You would need only some reasonable grounds for issuing the kind of information notice that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, wanted to see what was going on.

The Minister mentioned the consultations with the ABPI, but if those were such a success, why does the ABPI come to people like me and say that it is highly dissatisfied with the system that now appears in the Bill? The messages must have got lost in the night somewhere along the way, because the Minister certainly did not convince it to be comfortable with what is proposed in the Bill.

We need some kinds of safeguard, whether it is this trigger mechanism or a blend of that and the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

It seems from this debate that you could put together into an amendment the appeal mechanisms suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, the general thrust of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and the three examples the Minister gave of what would trigger the investigation. The Minister clearly has “resist” on every briefing for every amendment. However, this is the House of Lords and basically, we are either going to put an amendment through ourselves, which will win on Report, or the Minister will sit down with us to try to agree something. If the Minister is not able to give way on anything, frankly, it is pretty hopeless and departs from what your Lordships’ House is about. That is what I find frustrating. It is quite clear that there is a broad consensus that we need to see a trigger mechanism of some sort in the Bill. We would like to work with the Government, otherwise we are left with no option but to construct something ourselves.

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[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, the next two groups of amendments relate to the concerns expressed by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in its 12th report of the 2016-17 Session. Amendments 49 and 51 refer to Clause 6, which inserts a series of new sections into the NHS Act 2006 authorising the Secretary of State to disclose information provided by suppliers of health service products. New Section 264B(1) lists the bodies to which information may be disclosed. It also allows the Secretary of State to prescribe in regulations further persons to whom information may be disclosed. We have already heard from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about Parliament’s inability to have much effect on that.

There are two powers: a specific power to prescribe bodies which appear to represent manufacturers, distributers and suppliers of health service products and a general power to prescribe any other person. In his Amendment 50 the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has attempted to place in the Bill the specific organisations that represent UK producers. This is reasonable enough, although I know that Ministers hate having lists in Bills. However, it is the general power that the Delegated Powers Committee objects to. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said a few minutes ago when talking about Amendment 32, disclosure under new Section 264B may involve confidential and commercially sensitive information, even though the purposes for the disclosure are limited by subsections (2) and (3). The committee felt the general power to be inappropriate. No explanation of the need for this power was provided to the committee in the memorandum.

Amendment 49 therefore seeks to delete the general power in subsection (1)(l) of new Section 264B to enable the Minister to justify why the Secretary of State would need such a broad and wide-ranging power. Amendment 51 is consequential. Can the Minister say why it is not feasible to specify in the Bill the further bodies to which information may be disclosed, or even the groups of people or organisations? After all, in subsection (1)(k)—in lines 7 and 8—the Government specify representative bodies of producers. Why not specify other groups at the end of the subsection? This appears to me to represent a power too far, and the committee feels the same. What is this power for and how is it to be used? I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I have a little list, which is a bit bigger than the Minister’s list.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Have you seen it?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Indeed so. In following the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, this is really a probing question. Lists are generally avoided in primary legislation for the obvious reason that you need flexibility. I can see why a list of bodies has been put into paragraph (11) of the draft regulations. At this stage, I am just puzzled to know why those organisations which are in the list have been chosen and why others have not.

First, I see that the BMA is in the list. I assume that is because it represents dispensing pharmacists, but I would be grateful to have clarification. I think that may have been clarified. For instance, why is the British Healthcare Trades Association not in the list? Clearly, its membership, although sometimes the same, is rather different from the ABHI. There are other organisations that I have put down to probe how the department has come to that list. When we know that, we can then come back to the general principles that the noble Baroness has so rightly raised.