Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Lord Lansley Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th January 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Lansley]

32: Clause 6, page 5, line 32, at end insert—
“(4A) In connection with the requirements in subsection (2), the Secretary of State may serve a notice (an “information notice”) to a UK producer in order to require the person to supply the specific information required.(4B) An information notice must include particulars of—(a) the form in which the information must be supplied;(b) the date by which the information must be supplied;(c) the purpose for which the information is required;(d) with whom the information may be shared; and(e) the right of appeal under this section.(4C) A UK producer to whom an information notice has been served may appeal to the Upper Tier Tribunal against the notice.(4D) Regulations may make provision for, and in connection with, the determination of appeals under this section.”

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

It is a pleasure to start this, the second and concluding session in Committee. We have reached Clause 6, which relates to the provision of information. In the 2006 Act as it stands, there is a wide-ranging requirement to provide information under the statutory scheme for medicinal products. However, in the Bill the Government have resolved to go rather wider in the scope of the information-gathering power. We will come on to some of the reasons why I think that process of gathering information more rigorously is necessary and why I support it.

Happily, we are in this Bill discussing legislation that is, in principle, supported by the industry—it recognises the importance of securing a good relationship between the Government and the industry in determining the right pricing structure. This is particularly true because, in the past, under the voluntary scheme and statutory scheme, the information-gathering capacity was built into the schemes themselves.

In addition, there is the issue of gathering information relating to the reimbursement of pharmacies under what I think is known as scheme W. I completely understand why it is necessary. I remember that, back in about 2006—I am not sure which of our noble friends, if I may be so bold, was in ministerial office at that time—the issue that arose with pharmacies was the lack of contemporaneous data that enabled the gap between the wholesale purchasing and the reimbursement price on dispensed drugs to be determined accurately. At that time, I was the shadow spokesman, and whistleblowers came to me to tell me that the pharmacy industry was taking anything up to £500 million a year more, by way of its margin over its purchasing of drugs, than was allowed for in the global sum negotiated with the department. That was investigated by the National Audit Office and the whole system was tightened up.

We are, however, still not where we should be. On Monday, we debated the idea that if one ends up hearing about purchasing only from large organisations, one will get it wrong because one might leave out the fact that small pharmacies cannot necessarily purchase at quite so fine a price. However, unless I am very much mistaken, and contrary to that, if you gather information only from small pharmacies—even if they have a collective purchasing operation—and leave out the very biggest pharmacy chains, the chances are that you may be overestimating the wholesale price. Of course, there are some integrated operations, and getting that information from an integrated supply chain is extremely difficult.

The starting proposition for this debate is that there is a need to broaden the information-gathering power. Amendment 34, in my name, is consequential, but Amendment 32 is about what happens once one goes down the route of gathering quite so much information, potentially. I do not seek to amend the purposes that are set out, as the Committee will see, in Clause 6(3).

In Clause 6, there is a long list of the reasons why the Secretary of State might wish to gather information and the purposes required for that. It is potentially necessary for the information to be gathered. As a consequence, I do not wish to change all that list but at the moment, compared to most of the analogous information-gathering requirements for government laid upon industry, there is no safeguarding process. There is no process which, in itself, requires the Government to be much clearer about the information they require, the purposes for which they require it, the character of the use to which it will be put or, since there is a power to share information, with whom that information will be shared. Amendment 32 sets out to do this.

Under the voluntary or statutory schemes, there can be a scheme for gathering information that does not necessarily require information notices. Amendment 32 essentially says that in any circumstances where the Secretary of State does not receive the information the Government are looking for under a scheme, including presumably scheme W and others, there should be a power for the Secretary of State to issue an “information notice”. But where a notice is to be issued to somebody, it would then have to say some very specific things: what is required, in what form, by when, for what purpose, with whom it will be shared and about giving a right of appeal. There may inevitably be circumstances where there is a belief on the part of industry that the information being sought is not required—that the Government are unnecessarily hoovering it up, as it were. It may have a particular set of reasons of its own to try to resist this.

This amendment would give industry an opportunity to seek appeal if the Government are being disproportionate. Of course, it would have a right to judicial review but it would be much easier if this were governed under statute by way of simple appeal to the General Regulatory Chamber, as happens in a number of other areas where there is a requirement to gather information from people. I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to an understanding that, notwithstanding the general support of industry, concerns have been properly raised about the scope and extent of the information-gathering power the Government propose in the Bill. I hope he will recognise that the amendment would reassure the industry that it would be properly informed about what information is required, and would have some recourse if it objects to that information being taken. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to express some sympathy with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I am not sure whether he has got the terms of his amendment right; my noble friend Lord Warner has an amendment in the next group which, in a sense, covers the same ground.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, knows that I am sceptical about whether these powers should be extended to non-medicines but the issue here is that they are very broad, as he says. As far as I can see, there are absolutely no safeguards regarding how these powers will be used. The safeguards are not in the Bill or the 2006 Act, and certainly not in the draft regulations as far as I can see. We are looking for the Minister to table amendments on Report to build in thresholds or safeguards to stop the department simply undertaking fishing expeditions. That would give us some sense of proportionality. I am not sure whether the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Warner, have got their amendments quite right but I am certain there will be a consensus for building in some safeguards over the use of these powers.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that my explanation of the Bill and the two sets of illustrative regulations has clarified that the Government have carefully considered the issues of disclosing confidential and commercially sensitive information by restricting in the Bill the purposes for which information can be required and to whom information may be disclosed. I hope that I have also clarified that there is an appeal mechanism in place, albeit in a slightly different manner than that proposed by the amendment. On that basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lansley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and my noble friend for their response to this amendment. I can see from the illustrative regulations that, as I said earlier, there would be a general scheme for the collection of information, and I am not looking for the amendment to replace a general scheme with a requirement to issue individual information notices. That would be excessive and burdensome. However, under the illustrative regulations there is, in addition to the general scheme, what is effectively the restatement of the power for the Secretary of State additionally to require specific information from companies that breach the requirements of the general scheme—frankly, for any other purpose that the Secretary of State is looking for. That is in draft Regulation 19(2), which really just restates what is already in the legislation: that there is this general ability to say “just give me this information”.

I entirely understand the point that my noble friend is making about the appeal against enforcement, but there is no appeal against such a specific information notice. I may not have got it absolutely right, but in the case outside the general scheme of information, when the Secretary of State asks a company to provide specific additional information, I was proposing not an appeal against enforcement of request, where the company resisted, but for the company to be able to appeal against the information notice on the basis that it is an excessive use of powers; that is, rather than a judicial review, an appeal against that specific information notice.

My noble friend referred to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s view, which relates specifically to the question of with whom the information may be shared. The illustrative regulations really do not add anything from that point of view; they do not tell us, beyond what the legislation already states, with whom they may be shared. From any company’s point of view, there is little reassurance in the restrictions that the Minister has just referred to. The information could end up in all sorts of places. Remember, we are talking about an NHS body and, of course, all NHS bodies always behave absolutely properly in the use of information under all circumstances—I am being ironic.

From the point of view of a company engaged in selling these products, we are talking about a monopoly purchaser—a single payer—and a set of organisations with tremendous financial leverage in relation to the products that are being sold. If we are simply handing all the information over to the Secretary of State in the expectation that he could—I am not saying that he would—hand this information on to NHS bodies which are themselves the purchasers of these products, it could significantly skew what would otherwise be a proper commercial relationship between seller and buyer.

Companies must have a point at which they can cry foul, but I am not sure that we have yet given them the ability to do so at the appropriate stage when the information is being asked for. In a way, my amendment does that. I was rather comforted by the DPPRC’s report, in that it seemed to me that my amendment at least sought to make clear how the DPPRC’s recommendation in relation to the Bill might be met. I am implying in what I say that I can see how the amendment is not right; we could go further.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank my noble friend for that clarification. I think that we are talking about the same thing, but we should have the opportunity to explore it between Committee and Report. Certainly, we will talk about the DPPRC issues. It is understood that the powers as currently set out need to be looked at.

[Lord Lansley]

I am again grateful to my noble friend. On the basis of what I have explained, there is a conversation to be had and I hope that we may be able to resolve this satisfactorily before Report. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 32 withdrawn.