Community Engagement Principles and Extremism Definition

Lord Khan of Burnley Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jamieson (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in addition to reviewing the definition of extremist organisations and the community engagement strategy, we should also review the wider communication policy regarding acts of extreme violence and terror to maintain an open dialogue with the general public and prevent the spread of misinformation?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Khan of Burnley) (Lab)]

My Lords, let me first of all say that national security will always come first for this Government, and we will always treat the threat of extremism with the seriousness that it requires. The noble Lord makes an interesting point. I confirm to the House that the Government take the threat of extremism very seriously and will continue to work with partners to tackle extremism in all parts and forms. That is why the Home Secretary commissioned a rapid review of extremism in 2024. The Government will set out their approach to countering extremism in due course and will update Parliament accordingly. I am sure that many of the issues that the noble Lord raised will be part of that review.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, knowledge and understanding of communities is crucial in this regard. Councillors are elected to serve their communities and know them well. Does the Minister agree with that proposition? Does he also agree that plans to create large wards make that more challenging for councillors? Will the Government therefore keep ward sizes appropriate to their role in knowing and representing their communities, and will the Government provide additional support to councillors in that critical role?

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, let me reassure the noble Baroness that, having been a councillor for 16 years in the wonderful district of Burnley, I understand the fantastic work that local councils do. I reaffirm the Deputy Prime Minister’s position that we want to work in equal partnership with the local authorities and we want to give them more power. I would not be able to comment on the size of the wards because that is the responsibility of the Minister, Jim McMahon, in the other place.

[Baroness Hazarika (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will agree that this work could not be more important or timely. As a Muslim woman, can I ask the Minister what has been done to engage with women and girls’ voices? It feels like our voices are often ignored, and certain very noisy male groups dominate the conversation. Will the Minister acknowledge that it is often women and, sadly, girls, who are the victims of extremist violent behaviour?

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a series of excellent points. I totally agree about extremist behaviour and its disproportionate impact on women and girls. Let me reassure the noble Baroness that we are looking at ensuring that we have more female voices—not just female voices, but young female voices—in the faith space. Let me also let the House know that I have been up and down the country and have engaged not just with the major faiths but with every faith in our country. That has been a privilege, but I have learned that there need to be more female voices in the faith space.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, a decision under the previous Government about a particular Islamic organisation being characterised as extremist led to the defunding and collapse of the national Inter Faith Network. I wonder if the Minister agrees that the Inter Faith Network provided a vital role in co-ordinating interfaith work at a national level. We do great things at local level, but we need some national work as well. Will he urge His Majesty’s Government to commit to refunding the Inter Faith Network?

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate, with whom I have worked closely in the interfaith area in the north-west of England. I totally agree about the work of the Inter Faith Network. It is important that there is a national forum. Although we will not be bringing back the Inter Faith Network as it was previously, we are looking to ensure that that work is brought back and we are exploring ideas. My department, the MHCLG, has just commissioned some research and a consultation on what form that will take in future, so that there is a national interfaith presence that the Government can regularly engage with.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, given the changes to the definitions of extremist organisations, can the Minister please reassure me and the House that the Provisional IRA remains defined as a terrorist and extremist organisation? Can he therefore take back to his colleagues in government the real fear that many of us have that members of the Provisional IRA, including Gerry Adams, will be compensated in some way by the British taxpayer?

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I think it is just for me to say that I will take back the noble Lord’s concerns.

[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister consider that there are a lot of good lessons to be learned from Northern Ireland on community relations? Those relations have come on a great deal, and that is often about creating neutral spaces and reasons for communities to come together that are not related to being extreme or not getting on. It is about getting people on the fringes of those extremists to enjoy life together for other reasons—and that may be sport or art—on neutral ground. Often, when you target people to bring them together, those people naturally resist being brought together, so it is about doing it from ground level up, and doing it because people want to enjoy doing things together.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord made some interesting points. On the initial point about community relations, I reassure him that that is very important, and it is why counter-extremism has gone back into the Home Office. In my department, I am the Minister responsible for cohesion. We work with different communities to ensure, up and down the country, we hear those diverse voices, not just faith-based voices but from different communities, different diasporas and different parts of the country. So I reassure the noble Lord that this work is happening and we are working with our partners and across the country.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

Did the Minister see the result of a rather disturbing poll the other day that one in five people between the ages of 18 and 45 would rather have a strong leader than democracy? Democracy, of course, is about solving one’s political problems without violence. Does he agree that there is a failure at the moment in our country to encourage people in schools to really understand democracy and believe in it? It is not the only aspect of the matter, but we want children to come out of our schools believing in democracy and in doing these things without violence.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble and right reverend Lord makes a strong point about ensuring that we provide more education about and awareness of the importance of democracy. Democracy unfortunately is also being attacked by malign actors and foreign interference, as we have seen evidence of in recent weeks and even in previous elections. I reassure the noble and right reverend Lord that I am having those conversations with the Department for Education and the Minister responsible to ensure that we can look at focusing education and getting more understanding of democracy, so our citizens understand and appreciate the historical struggle for democracy and celebrate our system. Although there are challenges, it is a wonderful system and we need to ensure that people engage with it.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, just a small point first: countering extremism always has sat in the Home Office. I should know, as I was the first Minister for Countering Extremism in the Home Office. Linked to that, a lot of the extremism is imported from other parts of the world and it is important to stop it at source. Can the Minister assure this House that there will be an integrated approach to ensure that the foreign threat is also dealt with?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an excellent point about making sure that there is an integrated approach. I do not want to pre-empt the conclusion of the rapid sprint, which the Home Secretary has not completed yet, although there were some initial findings in December. The Deputy Prime Minister has made sure that community cohesion, community relations and working with communities come within MHCLG and the Home Office takes responsibility for counter-extremism. I know that was the situation when the noble Lord was in post, but when I came into post it was not the situation. Clarity has now been found. That work is important and the Home Secretary is leading on it.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, on a point of clarification, because Hansard is a journal of record, will my noble friend the Minister confirm, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, that Gerry Adams was never a member of the Provisional IRA—as he would himself say—but was a leader of the IRA which took, of course, a significant part in the Good Friday agreement? He was not in the Provos.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

I say to my noble friend that I am not in a position to comment on that. I think it is a conversation that the noble Baroness needs to have with the noble Lord and settle it outside.