House of Lords: Size

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Thursday 12th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, on having secured this important debate. In so doing, I declare my own interest as chair of the House of Lords Appointments Commission. The noble Lord, Lord Norton, raises an important issue which has implications for the practical discharge of the work of your Lordships’ House, as he rightly pointed out in his excellent introduction to the debate. It also has an important impact on the external perception of your Lordships’ House and therefore more broadly on the regard and standing of Parliament.

It is therefore vital that we look at the size of your Lordships’ House in the context of what the ongoing role of a second Chamber might be in the 21st century, in a bicameral Parliament where the primary Chamber enjoys the democratic mandate and has reserved for itself specific powers with regard to supply and confidence; and where there is a convention that your Lordships’ House does not frustrate the will of the primary Chamber but, rather, plays an important and active role, respecting the democratic mandate of the primary Chamber; in scrutinising and revising legislation, ensuring that our fellow citizens can live under the best possible laws that have been informed by active consideration in your Lordships’ House; by holding the Government to account, applying itself in a rigorous and fastidious fashion, questioning what the Government are doing and how the Executive are discharging themselves; and, of course, stimulating and initiating debates and inquiries which address concerns of national importance.

To discharge those functions, your Lordships’ House has concentrated on work in the Chamber, but also in Grand Committee and a number of Select and ad hoc Committees, currently over 30, populated by noble Lords who bring unique insights and expertise to their work. It is in that context that we need to consider how your Lordships’ House should be populated in the future. A driving principle of membership of this House has been that it brings experience, insight and expertise to much of the work that it does.

That has been an important and distinguishing characteristic of the composition of your Lordships’ House and it helps us to distinguish it from the other place. Therefore, in considering questions of the future size of your Lordships’ House it is important to understand whether at the heart of that particular question your Lordships and those who are in a position to make appointments to the House are fully cognisant of the current composition of the House and, in particular, what expertise exists within it.

For instance, do we have any clear understanding of the range of expertise that is required in a Chamber of this nature to be able to address issues of complexity in terms of modern legislation? How frequently is the declared expertise brought to bear in addressing in detail—in Committee and in work in the Chamber—the kinds of issues of legislation that your Lordships’ House is faced with, to ensure that the citizens of our country can be certain that they live under the very best laws, which have been thoughtfully considered? How often are we able to refresh that expertise to ensure that we are able to discharge our constitutional responsibilities? How can the House go about identifying the kinds of issues—and therefore the kinds of expertise—that might be required on the horizon to ensure that we can continue to discharge our responsibilities to scrutinise and revise legislation appropriately?

An important example of one of the areas where your Lordships’ House has taken a particular leading role in this Parliament is on the question of the scrutiny of legislation from Europe. I declare a further interest as a member of Sub-Committee B of your Lordships’ European Union Committee. The work of that network of European Union committees is highly regarded. It informs debate in the other place, and of course it informs further consideration among the European institutions and among other member states. How are we to ensure, when considering the size of a future House, that we retain that type of expertise?

Your Lordships’ House has another very important function in this bicameral Parliament. That is to ensure that Parliament, in the broadest sense, is able to reflect the diversity—in age, gender, ethnicity and in geography—that reflects our country as a whole, and which may not always be achieved through the ballot box and our particular electoral system in terms of membership of the other place. It would be a great pity, when considering questions about the size of your Lordships’ House, if those important defining characteristics were lost through the application of arbitrary solutions. That is not to say that the question of size is not an important one, but in addressing that question, your Lordships and others must be sensitive to the fact that your Lordships’ House, as the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, said in his introduction, works well, discharges those important responsibilities, and must be able to do so in the future.

Procedure of the House

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wakeham]

I will say a word or two because I was the Leader of the House when the noble Lord was the Leader of the Opposition. I listened to my noble friend putting forward a housemaid’s baby-type argument; we will have a little experiment and it will be all right. I also listened to the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. I have no doubt that if he was in charge of all this, it would work very well whatever the rules because he is that sort of person and he would make sure that it did. However, I am still worried about the central proposition that a Back-Bench committee should be able to decide which Back-Bench topics should be debated. The committee will come under enormous pressure and a great deal of lobbying. Inevitably it will end up, in order to keep the peace, taking on the big issues and leaving some of the smaller issues to one side. That is what worries me. Of course I accept the argument that we have to have more topical debates, but I am not sure that a Members’ Back-Bench committee is the way to do it. I would prefer it if we found another way. Therefore, I will vote against the experiment.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Leader whether any thought has been given to the objective criteria that will be applied to the experiment to determine finally whether it has been successful or not. There is a lot of talk about this being an experiment, but at the outset it is vital to determine how we are going to judge whether it has been successful when we come to re-evaluate it.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Thursday 21st June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I hate to say it but my noble friend is rather straying from the original Question on the Order Paper. He makes a very valuable defence of the second Chamber, and the House of Lords in particular, over the past 10 years. However, given that if this House were to be elected it would be on a different basis from the House of Commons—with different constituencies and a different electoral system—there is no reason to believe that a second Chamber, so constituted, would not be able to do some of the very valuable things that this House has done in the past.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, how can Her Majesty’s Government reassure the people of our country that in destabilising the relationship between your Lordships’ House and the other place their proposals for House of Lords abolition will not undermine the constitutional monarchy?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have every confidence that the robust nature of the British constitution would be able to bear well an elected second Chamber and it would have no impact whatever on the constitutional monarchy.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

It is good to hear the right reverend Prelate speak in support of the Cross Benches of which I, too, am a great supporter. That is why I have consistently opposed the idea of a 100 per cent elected House. Indeed, I am also a supporter of the role of the right reverend Prelates. They make a substantial contribution to the workings of the House. I do not think that the proportion of the Cross Benches has changed very much over the course of the past 10 years. We know of the tremendous contribution they make, not just in votes in the House but also in making speeches, and I do not think it is planned to change that proportion under the current system. But if a Bill is put before Parliament, of course everything will be up for grabs.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, whose comments better reflect a mature and reasoned understanding of the challenges attending reform of the House of Lords? Are they those of the president of the Liberal Democrats, who has likened your Lordships’ House to the tyrannical Syrian regime, or those of their leader, Nick Clegg, who has described your Lordships as an “affront” to liberal democracy?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it was the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who originally coined the phrase “an affront to democracy” in relation to the House of Lords, so my right honourable friend is certainly not the first to say that. I am not responsible for what the president of the Liberal Democrats has said, but perhaps he should wander up the corridor from the House of Commons and see the real work that is done in this House, not least of all by my colleagues and friends who represent the Liberal Democrat Party here.

House of Lords: Scottish Referendum

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, of course we must neither patronise nor anticipate. On the other hand, normal work should not come to a halt because of a possible referendum. That is why we are carrying on with our stated proposal for reform of the second Chamber.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, if the Scottish people were to determine that their constitutional destiny lay with the devo-max model, would it be appropriate for them to participate in elections for the Deputy Prime Minister’s senate in 2015?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, a rather different question is raised by the noble Lord, and I am not sure that I know entirely what is meant by this phrase devo-max.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand the point that my noble friend is making. The comparative figures between this House and the House of Commons are already in the public domain and are well understood. As I said, this House provides very good value for money.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader has placed great emphasis on the report of the Joint Committee scrutinising the draft Bill. What arrangements will be made for that report to be carefully scrutinised by your Lordships’ House in good time?

[Lord Strathclyde]

How to scrutinise the scrutineers, my Lords. I have not yet given great thought to how this House will do that, but there will be discussions in the usual channels. It is likely that in the new Session of Parliament we will find an opportunity at least to debate the Joint Committee’s report, and we will make an announcement in due course.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Kakkar]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the draft Bill on House of Lords Reform makes no provision for defining the powers of an elected second chamber.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the draft House of Lords Reform Bill specifically provides that nothing in the provisions affects the status, powers or jurisdiction of either House of Parliament. We therefore do not believe that it is necessary to define the powers of this House in primary legislation.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, how can Her Majesty’s Government so readily dismiss the wisdom of a truly great Liberal leader, Asquith, whose 1911 Parliament Act states with absolute clarity that Parliament would need to take measures to limit and define the powers of a new second Chamber elected on a popular basis? Is the Deputy Prime Minister’s single-minded obsession with the abolition of your Lordships’ House not only deeply irresponsible but fraught with constitutional hazard?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I can tell that the House is in a good Christmas mood this morning, and it looks as if I am the turkey. The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, has done some good research into the preamble to the 1911 Act. To some extent, that demonstrates how wise they were in 1911, but even then they could not possibly have predicted that it would take another 100 years to get to the first draft Bill ever published. Today we have a very different House to the one that we had in 1911. The Parliament Act 1911 itself was amended in 1949, and since then the conventions between the Houses have developed over the years. We therefore believe that we should not be bound by the view set out in the preamble to the 1911 Act.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 1)

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ribeiro]

My Lords, as a new Member who has not spoken, I would like to say a few words. Few of my friends would consider me a shrinking violet, but there is no question that, for new Members, speaking in this House is a steep learning curve. I have been fortunate to have two or three Questions at Question Time. One thing that is very surprising is that the Member who puts the Question often has less time to ask their question than do those who ask questions afterwards. Brevity is the key. It has been emphasised that some of us are able to keep our questions fairly brief. Self-regulation is not just about the Leader of the House determining who speaks and when; it is about the Members themselves recognising that they have 30 minutes in which to deal with four Questions, and that that can be done satisfactorily only if people keep to time and allow others to have a say as well. I do not think that there is a problem with the system as it stands. It is for us to look at how we behave.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, I have had the privilege of sitting in your Lordships' House for only 18 months but I have received the warmest of welcomes, particularly at Oral Questions. I have also learnt three unique characteristics of your Lordships' House. The first is that all noble Lords are equal. There is no stronger manifestation of that characteristic than at Question Time, when one has the privilege to be heard because it is the will of your Lordships that one should be heard. Secondly, this is a self-regulating Chamber and noble Lords hear from whom they want to hear in the context of the Question being discussed and the expertise that is present in the Chamber at the time of the discussion. Finally, I have learnt that there is a very important constitutional role for the Leader of the House which goes far beyond his responsibility as a member of the Cabinet and far beyond his responsibility as leader of the governing party in this House—the obligation to every Member of your Lordships’ House to serve their interests and to ensure that the will of the House is properly communicated and understood. To divide the Leader of the House from the specific responsibilities that we discussed at Oral Questions today runs the risk of removing this overall obligation which the Leader of the House has to all noble Lords.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, after the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, I am very tempted to say—as yet another fairly recent Member of this House, having joined just over five years ago—that I am not entirely happy with the way in which Question Time is seen by the public. We do not behave as well as we should. However, I do not think that the current proposal would make it much better, for all the reasons that have been given. It seems to me that two things should happen. First, I think that the Leader of the House or the Chief Whip should occasionally make it clear whose turn he or she thinks it is. That is not always as clear as it might be. Secondly, it is time that we, as Members of this House, used self-regulation to mean self-regulation of each individual—we should behave better. We should sit down when other people are standing and hope that we will have a chance, but if we do not get a chance to speak, we should hope that we will have a chance next week. That is one of the reasons why I do not speak very often at Question Time. I feel that others have something to say and I want to speak only when I really have something to say. If we are proud of self-regulation, we have an obligation to regulate ourselves.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we have just set up a first-class Joint Committee of both Houses which is going to look at the draft Bill. Most of the letters we have received come up with their own new and improved schemes for the future of the House of Lords, or are interested in the Bishops remaining in the House of Lords and the representation of other faiths.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, public engagement with the Bill might be enhanced by describing its consequences in terms of the interaction of our citizens with this Parliament. How would the noble Lord the Leader advise a constituent in 2016 with two elected representatives to this Parliament, an MP from the opposition party and a senator for the governing party, who wished to raise an urgent issue with the Home Office? Should the constituent speak to MP or senator?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I hope that that is exactly one of the questions that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, will tackle in his Joint Committee. We do not anticipate senators, if that is what they are to be called, taking over the role of Members of Parliament. Of course, it will be entirely free for members of the public to write both to their Members of Parliament and to their senators.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the Prime Minister is still keeping it under review.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, does Her Majesty’s Government believe that the appointment of a large number of additional Peers will help your Lordships’ House to serve the people of our country more effectively, or might some of the proposals of the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, help to achieve that objective better?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is no intention at present to increase the number of Peers in this House. However, from the point of view of my noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill, I can inform the House that my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral’s proposition has been published in a Procedure Committee report, will be taken in the course of the next few weeks and, I hope, will be agreed by the House.