House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords—

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

Can we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and then from the Cross Benches?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there is no tension between the two. All I say is what is obvious: in a House that is entirely elected, over time there will be evolution, as there already has been over the past 10 or 20 years. That is entirely natural and entirely in accordance with what is said in the White Paper.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House has emphasised the statement in the White Paper that the intention is that the other place will remain the primary House in this Parliament. If the Joint Committee on Scrutiny concluded that it would be impossible to secure the primacy of the other place if your Lordships’ House were abolished and replaced by an elected Chamber, would the noble Lord consider it appropriate to proceed with the Bill?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a very clever question—one that would allow me to indulge in much philosophical debate about the primacy of the House of Commons and the workings of the Joint Committee. The Government hope that the Joint Committee, when it is set up, will give the White Paper and the draft Bill serious scrutiny and examination. Of course it will want to look at peripheral matters, such as the role of the Parliament Act, that of the Cunningham committee, many other things and various alternatives. In the end, it will have to focus on whether this House is to be elected; if so, how it is to be elected; what it will be called; transition and so on. It will then put proposals to the Government. I hope it will do so in a most realistic way. Everything that I have heard this afternoon leads me to believe that the Joint Committee will have plenty of work to do.

Parliament: Elected House of Lords

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Kakkar]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they will take to secure the primacy of the House of Commons if the House of Lords is replaced by an elected Chamber.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, an important part of the plans for reform of this House is the continued primacy of the House of Commons. The Government are clear that the role of this House is, and should continue to be, to complement the other place.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for his reply, which I think to an extent recognises the considerable anxiety not only among Members of your Lordships’ House but among members of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of the other place about the failure to address adequately the question of primacy of the other place. We all await with eager anticipation the statement from the Deputy Prime Minister and his draft Bill to determine whether they provide further insights into this important constitutional issue. However, I am sure that the Leader of the House will agree that the profound constitutional implications that attend abolition of your Lordships’ House and its replacement with an elected second Chamber require that any proposals that come forward enjoy genuine confidence. In this regard, will the noble Lord confirm that there will be a free vote on the Bill in both your Lordships’ House and the other place?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord and, I expect, many others in eagerly anticipating the announcement that will be made shortly by my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister. With regard to understanding the profound implications of any change that might take place, again I agree with the noble Lord: they would be profound if this House became a wholly elected body, as I think is well understood by those who propose such a change. We would decide the issue of a free vote when we came to a final conclusion about what would appear in a Bill, if any, and when it would be presented to both Houses of Parliament.

House of Lords: Membership

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am deeply impressed by my noble friend’s ambition—10 years to wait does not seem too long at all. The fact is that the Prime Minister is First Lord of the Treasury. It would a very strange thing, given the reduced powers of this House since 1911, for the Prime Minister to be a Member of this House. Therefore, we have no plan or proposal to make it so.

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, if the programme of parliamentary reform led by the Deputy Prime Minister were to result in the other place continuing to be elected by first past the post, and the future Chamber here being elected through proportional representation as envisaged in the coalition agreement, who would have greater democratic legitimacy—MPs or elected Peers?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is of course an immensely good question, and it is one that we will return to many times over the next few months when the Deputy Prime Minister has published his White Paper and draft Bill. But I go back to the central point—which is that, under the terms of the 1911 Act, another place has primacy. We believe that that is where it should remain.

House of Lords Reform

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, I address your Lordships as one of the most recently appointed Members to your Lordships’ House. Therefore, I come to this issue for the very first time. I thank the Leader of the House for having provided this opportunity because reform of the House of Lords is clearly no trivial matter. It is a serious issue which I think will resonate with the public although, clearly, at the moment it does not. We know that there are greater concerns for the citizens of our country. When this issue is discussed in more detail early next year, the nation will be facing considerable hardship and the people of this country will want to understand that we are discussing it for the right reasons.

What is the purpose of considering reform of your Lordships' House? Is it because this House is ineffective? Is it because this House has failed to serve the people of our country for many generations? Is it because this House does not provide value for money? The purpose needs to be clear. We need to understand the current function of your Lordships’ House. I have always understood it to be a revising and scrutinising Chamber. My own impression and experience, admittedly gathered over a short time while sitting among your Lordships, is that this House delivers that function exceedingly well. Therefore, any process of reform needs to ensure that we make the current purpose of your Lordships’ House more effective. In that regard, the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, is very powerful and should enjoy broad support. It deals with some of the issues which potentially make the working of your Lordships’ House less than effective.

If the purpose of reform is to change the very nature of your Lordships’ House, a considerable constitutional change is envisaged. During the debate we have heard of the potential to create a House which could challenge the other place more effectively. That has not been the purpose of your Lordships’ House to date. What might an elected Chamber look like? How might it function? Those are very important questions. Will it be subservient to the party machine in another place? Will it be a House where those who are successful in an election, through a method of proportional representation, owe allegiance to the other place and to those who control the other place? What would be the consequences of that?

One of our important functions is to ensure that the life of a Parliament does not extend beyond five years. If this House were to be controlled by another place, how would that safeguard be maintained? That is hugely important and a vital constitutional question that must be dealt with in any proposal for reform of your Lordships’ House. On the other hand, if this House were to be elected and were to become truly independent of another place and the party machines, there would be potential for conflict.

Of course, there has been much discussion about the conventions which dictate the relationship between the two Houses in this great Parliament. Would those conventions stand? My understanding is that when the Joint Committee on Conventions last looked at this some years ago, it concluded that they would not. The conventions stand because one House is elected and the other, which was hereditary, is now an appointed Chamber. Some constitutional settlement needs to be achieved to ensure that there is a clear understanding about the relationship between those two Houses, if there is to be an elected House.

It is wrong for a Motion to come in isolation for debate in this House and in another place that does not deal with those important issues. This is major constitutional reform, and the people of this country will expect us to consider all the implications and provide solutions to ensure that there is not gridlock in our legislative system, that Parliament continues to work well and, ultimately, that they enjoy the very best laws. Those laws come from appropriate, thorough scrutiny and discussion with Government. The greatest strength of this House has been to help the Government of the day achieve the very best laws for all the people of our country.

Perception is another important issue. There should not be a misapprehension in future about the purpose of reform. It should never be suggested that reform was proposed as a matter of political expediency because there was a need to satisfy tensions within a coalition Government. This is important constitutional reform, and must be done for the right reasons. Because it is such important reform, the people of this country deserve the right to consider it by way of a post-legislative referendum, so that they know exactly what they are voting about and have explained to them all the implications and how we and those in another place propose to deal with them.

Process is also important. It is regrettable that Cross-Benchers have been excluded from the beginning of this process. I know that, down the line, there will be an opportunity for scrutiny of legislation. That is welcome, but it is important that perception is correct from the very beginning. I have felt privileged to listen to all the extremely high-quality contributions this evening.