Draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer Of Functions) (Railways) Order 2018

Lord Johnson of Marylebone Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2018 General Committees

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Joseph Johnson)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (Railways) Order 2018.

The draft order, laid before the House on 28 February, will transfer certain railway functions of the Secretary of State in relation to the Wales and Borders franchise to Welsh Ministers. The devolution of these powers takes forward one of the Silk commission’s recommendations and is an important part of our commitments in the St David’s Day Command Paper on a lasting devolution settlement for Wales. This debate is the culmination of the parliamentary phase for the draft order, but it will not surprise hon. Members to learn that a lot of hard work has brought us to this day, and I would like to recognise the efforts of both the Welsh and the UK Governments in that.

We have agreed with the Welsh Government that the order will transfer franchising functions to Welsh Ministers only in so far as they relate to Wales and Borders services and stations wholly within Wales, and to certain ancillary and related matters. Welsh Ministers’ statutory powers within Wales are to be supplemented by agency powers exercised on behalf of the Secretary of State for services in England up to the first station in Wales.

These proposed arrangements will enable Welsh Ministers to procure and manage a replacement franchise that, like the current franchise, includes important cross-border services to and from English towns and cities, as well as some services entirely within England, while providing appropriate accountability for the Secretary of State for rail services within England.

Both Governments intend, over the next couple of months, to conclude a suite of devolution agreements that will supplement the order. A series of agency agreements will set out conditions on the specification and management of the English part of the franchise. That will include a requirement for the Wales and Borders franchisee to set up a separate borders business unit to manage services and stations within England and act as a focal point for liaison with relevant local authorities, sub-national transport bodies and user groups. Further agreements will set out arrangements for partnership working in respect of the management of the new franchise, the relevant funding and outputs to be provided and the terms under which Welsh Ministers will, for the time being, subcontract to the Secretary of State the exercise of the operator-of-last-resort responsibilities transferred to them by the draft order.

Following careful consideration of the representations from hon. Members, I can guarantee that English residents and those who use the parts of the Wales and Borders franchise that are solely within England will continue to have a mechanism to make their views known to their elected representatives following devolution.

I wish to restate my Department’s commitment to the spirit and the terms of the devolution agreement secured with the Welsh Government in 2014. We have agreed in principle that the present franchise funding levels and arrangements between the Department and the Welsh Government are to continue.

Much positive and practical work has been done by both Governments in readiness for Welsh Ministers taking on greater responsibilities. Transport for Wales has been established by the Welsh Government to help to deliver the next Wales and Borders franchise and the South Wales Metro project, and my Department has provided extensive support to help to progress their franchising and metro proposals.

The procurement process for the next franchise is already well under way. Both Governments have worked together to deliver successfully a series of procurement milestones—most recently, the invitation to tender in September.

We have worked closely with the Welsh Government to ensure that the interests of passengers in England and Wales are protected following devolution. This approach will deliver appropriate accountability for both the UK and the Welsh Governments for rail services solely in their territories, while ensuring that the experience of passengers in terms of connectivity and quality of services will be maintained and improved. The Welsh Ministers have formally approved the draft order. I ask the Committee also to give its support.

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[Joseph Johnson]

I thank all hon. Members for the points made. I will try to address as many of them as I can. I will happily write to Committee members afterwards about those I do not address now.

The Government are delivering on our commitment to give the Welsh Government greater control over Wales and Borders services. The devolution of these rail powers is an example of effective co-operation between the UK and Welsh Governments. An example of that effective co-operation is the cross-border working that is now under way. The UK and Welsh Governments are finalising a co-operation and collaboration agreement that will set out arrangements for partnership working in respect of the management of the next Wales and Borders franchise and the operation and procurement of passenger rail services operating in Wales by other franchises. That will include an enhanced consultation role for Welsh Ministers.

A number of questions were asked about the bidding process and the state of bids for the next franchise. The withdrawal of Arriva and Abellio from the bidding process is a matter for the Welsh Government, as they are now responsible for it. It is not uncommon for bidders for major projects to withdraw during tender processes. With final tenders due later this year, two bids remain in the running—MTR and KeolisAmey—which is sufficient to have a competitive process. The shadow Minister asked about the nature of the bidders allowed to participate in the process. The Railways Acts that she referred to do not prevent not-for-profit organisations from bidding for rail franchises. The Welsh Government were able to encourage bids from not-for-profit organisations for the current Wales and Borders franchise procurement.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr asked a number of questions about the devolution settlement and rail. The Government believe that it would be undesirable to reopen discussions on Silk recommendations on which there has not been a clear consensus. We do not intend to revisit the question of devolving Network Rail funding given the discussions on the issue during the St David’s Day process. The Department for Transport continues to liaise closely with the Welsh Government on the specification and funding of Network Rail’s operations in England and Wales for each five-year railway control period to ensure that Welsh requirements for increased capacity on the network are reflected. As part of Network Rail’s devolution arrangements, the Welsh Government will be represented on the Wales route supervisory board within Network Rail, and the board will work in partnership to drive improvements for customers in the Wales and Borders area and to hold industry to account.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about delays to the devolution process and the amount of time it has taken to get us to this place. The delay in transferring rail powers to Welsh Ministers has not adversely affected the procurement process for the next franchise. The formal transfer of powers has required the resolution of a number of detailed policy and practical considerations on cross-border services that has taken longer than anticipated. However, as I hope we have illustrated, we have been working closely with the Welsh Government throughout to ensure that they can proceed in a timely manner with the franchise procurement. The ongoing procurement of the next franchise, as I said in my opening remarks, is being facilitated through agency agreements enabling Welsh Ministers to exercise the Secretary of State’s relevant functions in advance of the draft order being made.

Members also asked about Government spending on the railways in Wales overall. The Department for Transport continues to liaise closely with the Welsh Government on the specification and funding of Network Rail’s operations in England and Wales for each five-year railway control period to ensure that requirements in Wales for increased capacity on that bit of the network are reflected. We are investing a record amount in Wales’s rail infrastructure. Network Rail’s proposed budget for control period 6, which runs from 2019 to 2024, is more than £1.3 billion. As Members know, we do not allocate transport funding in England and Wales on a per-head-of-population basis, and the Wales route is not being short-changed. Our spending goes where it is most needed and where it delivers the greatest value for money. We make decisions based on rigorous and fair appraisal processes that ensure just that.

The hon. Member for York Central asked about electrification and Cardiff and Swansea in particular. We remain committed to delivering the right outcomes for rail transport in Wales. As Ministers have said before, however, we will only commit to electrifying lines where it will genuinely provide a real benefit to passengers. A recent reappraisal of electrification between Cardiff and Swansea found it to be poor value for money, with a benefit-to-cost ratio of just 0.3. The introduction of the bi-mode intercity express trains means that we no longer need to electrify the Great Western route between Cardiff and Swansea. We are improving journeys for passengers in south Wales sooner than expected, without the need to carry out disruptive electrification works along the Great Western route between Cardiff and Swansea.

[Jonathan Edwards]

If the bi-mode trains are so good, can I take it that it will be bi-mode trains running on HS2?

[Joseph Johnson]

I will not be drawn on the procurement decisions for HS2 at this point. The point I wanted to make, and made, was that the bi-mode trains on this stretch of the network will deliver substantially the same benefits for passengers that electrification would, at considerably better value for money.

[Rachael Maskell]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer, but does he agree that it will not provide equivalence to electrification on that part of the network?

[Joseph Johnson]

Clearly it will not be the same as electrification, because it will not require the disruptive works overhead, the gantries and so on, which would have affected passenger journeys. The introduction of the new bi-mode trains will, however, deliver substantially the same passenger benefits and, as I said in response to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, at considerably better value for taxpayers.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I travel on that line every week to come down to London. The busiest section both ways in terms of passenger numbers is the journey between Swansea and Cardiff, the two major cities in Wales. The journey time now with the new trains is longer than it was with the old trains, because the new trains are far larger and take more time to slow down when entering stations such as Port Talbot and Bridgend before they enter Cardiff.

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[Joseph Johnson]

There is no escaping the fact that the benefit-to-cost ratio on electrification between Cardiff and Swansea was just 0.3. No Government can reasonably be expected to finance a project with that kind of value for money for taxpayers. It would be irresponsible to do so.

[John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)]

Can I reassure the Minister that, for those of us whose constituencies are on branch lines going south from Bristol, which could have been severely disrupted by a half-and-half fleet of fully electric and bi-mode trains—because whenever anything broke down it would not be possible to substitute one for the other—the advent of a completely bi-mode fleet is substantially better, in terms of resilience of service, for everybody surrounding Bristol?

[Joseph Johnson]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. Once the whole of the new fleet is introduced and electrification to Cardiff is complete, passengers will benefit from a 40% increase in the number of seats in the morning peak and significantly better journey times between Swansea, London and other stations along the route, which will be about 15 minutes shorter than they currently are.

TEN-T was mentioned. It recognises strategic transport routes in the EU. It is not clear at this point how TEN-T will be treated post Brexit, but that will become clearer in coming weeks. As I said, the devolution of these rail powers is an example of close and effective co-operation between the UK and Welsh Governments.

[Rachael Maskell]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way one more time. Will he acknowledge that the devolution deal in place here is less than the deal with Scotland? Can he explain why it is that the Welsh Government will not have full power over the future of its economy as well as serving the passengers of Wales?

[Joseph Johnson]

We are committed to devolution, and to the devolution process, but we do not want to go, in one small bit of secondary legislation, beyond the consensus that was agreed during the St David’s Day process. That needs to be considered as part of a coherent look at devolution settlements in the future.

Like hon. Members, I want to see improved rail services for passengers in England and Wales. I hope that hon. Members will agree that the devolution approach we have chosen recognises the inherently joint nature of a significant proportion of the Wales and Borders franchise, and ensures that the current extensive cross-border links can be maintained and developed for the benefit of passengers and the Welsh and English border economies. We will continue to support the Welsh Government to enable them to achieve the successful procurement of the next franchise. I commend the draft order to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (Railways) Order 2018.