Lord Inglewood
Main Page: Lord Inglewood (Non-affiliated - Excepted Hereditary)Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Lord Inglewood Excerpts
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, I too am sympathetic to the aims of Amendment 1, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. This should not just be about new technology, since new art and culture are being made as we speak, using traditional media as well. We should not forget that art, and much of our culture, is made by people and, indeed, people tragically die making a contribution to the culture of their country. I am thinking in particular of the confirmation this week of the tragic deaths of the five Syrian journalists at the hands of ISIS, as well as that of the Syrian journalist Khaled al-Essa.
On the amendment—although this is not to do with military conflict—I know that I, and many others, in recent times felt a considerable sense of loss after the Momart fire in 2004. Fortunately, that was a rare event, but it included the destruction of over 50 of the best major works by the artist Patrick Heron. I mention this simply to say that culture does not have to be 2,000 years old for a great loss to be felt, and newer work in new and old formats is precious as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned film. It might be added that old cine-film and old photographs are very old indeed in terms of the development of these technologies and art forms through the 20th and 21st centuries.
Lord Inglewood (Con)
On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth—and I also apologise for not having been able to be here at Second Reading—I have every sympathy with the thrust of what the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, is saying. However, as I was listening to the discussion, it struck me that this Bill is intended to put on our domestic statute the provisions of the Hague convention, and it sits surrounded by a number of other Bills which relate to culture and crimes relating to culture. Surely the right answer is not to tamper with the interpretation of culture in the context of the Hague convention but to make sure that the definition of culture elsewhere on the statute book meets the requirements of the contemporary world.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, this issue was raised on Second Reading and, although the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, was not there, his contributions to all things archaeological were mentioned—he has been contributing for many years, as have many of us.
On Second Reading, we raised the issue that to make changes to anything in the 1954 convention would make this a difficult Bill to pass and, I believe, would be outside the Short Title of the Bill. However, an issue which will be raised again and again—I shall put it on the table now and probably not speak to some of the amendments in the future—is that, while we have not been signed up to the 1954 convention, we have been implementing the broad outlines of it in other places. Will the Minister make sure that the concerns of your Lordships’ House are expressed when the outlines are set out, and repeated, for the cultural protection fund?
Lord Inglewood
My Lords, I should have mentioned earlier that I am president of the British Art Market Federation, which is in my declaration of interests. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, made the point very well: there is a real risk that we invent cleverly worded legislation which in effect inhibits the kind of thing the noble Earl talked about. What matters is actually securing convictions where serious crimes have taken place. If we try to finesse everything too much, the risk is that we will not get the convictions and there will no exhibitions of art across borders. That would be a loss, so it is important that my noble friend spell out, in simple terms that people can understand, exactly how we can devise a straightforward and clear way of dealing with the problems that have been alluded to.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, I, too, am sympathetic to the concerns of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, but can we compare notes with or learn from other European countries such as Germany, which has important museums and has operated the second protocol since 2004?
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Collins of Highbury and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, and their co-signatories address a very important issue. While I fully understand the nature of my noble friend’s concern I have some reservations about his specific proposal, which has something of the character of martial law about it. It is an important feature of our legal tradition that people are innocent until proved guilty. Only where motoring offences are concerned is there a presumption of guilt and you have to demonstrate your innocence, and I am not sure that I want to see that reversal applied in the art market. None the less, there is a very serious problem within the London art, antiques and antiquities markets.
I emphasise that the London art market is a jewel in the nation’s crown. There are some magnificent businesses that do enormous credit to this country, bring it prosperity and play a leading role in its cultural distinction. However, the London market is a mixed bag and unfortunately there are some dodgy characters and spivs—and spivs in blue suits are spivs no less. It is therefore absolutely right that we should seek through this legislation to address ourselves to this kind of criminality.
We see here the interaction of two very disturbing problems. One is the funding of terrorism. As we know, ISIL is systematically engaged through what it calls its “Ministry of Antiquities” in looting the cultural heritage of the areas it occupies and selling important items of cultural heritage on the global market, and in particular the London market, to finance its continuing terrorism. It also takes a levy from others who for whatever reasons find opportunities to sell items of cultural heritage. So that is happening and it is a major concern.
There is also the whole problem of money laundering across global markets. One of the most convenient ways for people to launder money is to purchase works of art or precious antiquities and in that way bring their money into what appears to be the legitimate market. When we have that interaction of two major criminal processes, vigorous and well-thought-through action is clearly needed.
I have a great deal of sympathy for what is proposed in Amendment 18, and in particular, as the noble Earl just suggested, its emphasis on clarity of ownership so that people engaged in these markets can know who they are transacting with and the provenance of the items that they are buying. The opacity of the market is obviously very convenient for criminality and makes it difficult for people who collect or wish to deal for perfectly honourable and proper purposes to be confident that they are acting properly. Sunlight, as is often observed, is a very good disinfectant, and the thrust of Amendment 18 is right.
It would be helpful if the Minister could say how this legislation will interact with the criminal finances Bill, which we have not yet seen but which the Government have promised—presumably it will be introduced quite soon—and which will deal with the problems of corruption that were addressed by the Prime Minister and the Government as a whole in the summit they held earlier this year. Certainly, if we had information about the identity of buyers or potential buyers and sellers, that should be a contribution towards enabling the better identification and prosecution of money launderers. I would add that the legislation should require that ultimate beneficial ownership is identified, and not just the person who happens to be acting for the time being, who may well be acting on behalf of others and may be at the top of many layers of transactions and intermediary financial devices.
So that is important. But all this should be seen in the context of the need for a fully co-ordinated, energetic, purposeful drive by the Government to prosecute offences in this area, with all the departments of Whitehall working together and the police, the National Crime Agency and Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs all engaged in a fully developed strategy, working of course with the relevant business and professional associations, those in the art market and with other Governments internationally—a point I made in the debate we had on 14 January. It would be helpful if the Minister would give us an update on how the Government are seeking to address these problems coherently.
Lord Inglewood
My Lords, in her response to my intervention on the previous amendment the Minister responded to some things I wanted to touch on and raise under this amendment—so it was nice to hear from her in advance of my comments.
First, speaking as president of the British Art Market Federation, I emphasise that the federation warmly welcomes the Bill—and does so for two completely different reasons. The first is that it is inherently a good and a right thing to do. Secondly, the British art market, which is based particularly in London but not exclusively so, needs to have the reputation as a clean market. If it is not a clean market, it will not be able to benefit those who deal in it as well as it would if it were. This is as true of a stock exchange or the City of London as it is of the British art market.
The Minister told the Committee at the end of her remarks on the previous amendment what she expected of the British art market. I listened carefully and I think that I understood everything accurately. I can say that not only is that what we expect of the British art market but that she missed two things out. The first is that we expect those who break the law to be prosecuted and then convicted. Secondly—this was an important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins—we are not ultimately interested in prosecuting people for crimes; we want to see a world where these crimes do not take place in the first instance. If you have a market which succeeds in prosecuting criminals who operate in and around it, you will go a long way towards achieving just that.
I will touch on some comments I made at the conclusion of my contribution to the discussion on the previous clause. It seems that we need to get two important things right in the context of the criminal law here. The first is that the mens rea needs to be right—I think that my noble friend knows this. We feel that the mens rea as drafted in the Bill is a bit woolly. If you have a slightly woolly definition of what the necessary mens rea is, clever lawyers will be able to get slippery individuals off, and that is not a good thing. We believe, bearing in mind the way in which the criminal law is construed in this country, that a mens rea of knowing or suspecting will assist in bringing criminals to book. Secondly, the particularity of what is required of people should be clear, straightforward and doable. As I said earlier, this is not an exercise in writing a paper which may get you a First in your finals at university but an exercise in bringing bad lads to book.
Against that background, we have heard quite a lot of remarks about the extent of criminality in the London art market, particularly in the context of the tragic events in the Middle East. As I understand it—and I do not have a lot of first-hand knowledge—undoubtedly during the Iraq war there was a significant amount of trade in illegal objects which derived from Iraq at that time. Since then, in the context of the Syrian conflict, my understanding is that the London art market has hardly been involved. This is partly to do with the cultural property offences Act, which we have already had reference to, and partly to do with the fact that those who are engaged in this activity, which is undoubtedly happening, are no longer using the London art market as the place from which to disseminate their ill-gotten goods. In corroboration of this, I understand that the Metropolitan Police has put it on the record that London is now a much cleaner market than it was before.
One reason for that is the expansion of proper due diligence. If you use due diligence, you do not necessarily need to have in front of you an enormous schedule of provenance. After all, these days a good provenance enhances the value of a work of art, and most people sell works of art in order to make as much money as possible. But, in the context of the kind of object that might have been looted, not having appropriate provenance gives rise to suspicion and, if there is suspicion, you will potentially be liable to prosecution. If you look at it like that, do not prescribe the rules too tightly and allow the application of principle in dealing with these matters, you will almost certainly be more successful.
Earlier, we heard a number of suggestions regarding illegal trade going on in London. I would just say: do not raise them on the Floor of the House of Lords; go to the police and get the criminals banged up. That is what is required. There have been so few prosecutions and it has been suggested to me that the reason is that there has not been the evidence to justify bringing them. I am not saying that everything is perfect—but that again goes back to the fact that, in the case of the current conflict, this is not the principal place where people wish to launder these sorts of items.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is absolutely right: we must not overlook the fact that the art market, like all markets in this country, is subject to comprehensive and extensive money-laundering regulation. That, as much as anything else, ought to answer certain criticisms that have been made. The noble Lord is probably right that changing the burden of proof in the way described would be a pretty fundamental change to the way that things are done in this country. It would probably drive the bad lads underground, because you can always sell things privately. We do not know what goes on when things are sold privately but I suspect that it is a much easier way to fence stuff. So I urge the Government to look very carefully at what is proposed because I doubt that it will have the result that its proponents suggest. It could have a damaging effect on the honest market, and if you do not have an honest market there is always the temptation for a parallel dishonest market to develop.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I support the amendment in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and my noble friends Lord Redesdale and Lady Bonham-Carter. I emphasise the vital importance of not only preserving the world’s cultural heritage but doing our best to curtail funding for terrorist groups. People tend to think of oil or extortion as funding terrorism, but we know that people trafficking and, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has just said, the wildlife trade, as well as the trafficking of cultural objects, also fund terrorism. That is not what people—the consumers, to whom the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, refers—think as they buy a beautiful or historic object, which is why these provisions are so important: transparency is absolutely vital.
Can the Minister tell me whether the funding of the Arts and Antiques Unit in the Metropolitan Police, as with other areas in which the Met is pursuing corruption overseas, counts towards our overseas development assistance—ODA—calculations? Also, given Brexit and the potential shrinking of the economy, can she say whether our commitment to 0.7% of GNI for ODA will continue—and what provisions have been made if that does not happen?
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I rise to speak to this amendment and to say that I do not plan to move Amendment 29 because it raises this issue.
A number of us in this Chamber were responsible for pushing through the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act. Although it is good to know that at least one prosecution has taken place under the Act, that did not stop it, at the beginning of the last Government, being put forward by the Conservative Back-Benchers as a piece of legislation that was redundant and could be got rid of because it had never been used. The problem is that such legislation gets moved in response to a specific event; in this case, it was the looting of the museum in Baghdad. The ratification of this Bill has been moved forward very much due to the cultural destruction that is taking place in Syria at the moment.
I do not believe that this Bill is the place for this amendment, even though I have put my name to it. However, it is probable that we could raise it again in any money laundering legislation that comes in front of the House in the future. As the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, so adroitly pointed out, the real problem is that a lot of art provenance is not known, is written on dodgy pieces of paper, or is attested to collections that no longer exist in foreign countries. This is a problem.
I take on board the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, that because there is a law, many people will not break it. However, there are many laws that people know are there and do break. The art market does not have the best of reputations from instances in the past. Therefore, if we are to clear up the art market, we need to make sure that there is some implication of having a law. That is why I put down the amendment to say that there should be a review each year. For example, we know that, in 2003, the amount of Mesopotamian artefacts on the marketplace drove down the price. We also know the source of those Mesopotamian artefacts, and, bizarrely, that trading was done very much in the areas that are next to the British Museum.
Provenance is a double-edged sword. Many of the artefacts that are now safe in the British Museum were illicitly lifted and their provenance is now based on the paperwork that proves they were filtered from the country of origin without the authorities’ knowledge. One could say that many of the collections of the great museums have a slight provenance issue.
Although this amendment will probably not be agreed, it raises the issue that, although we have the law, it has not been taken as seriously as it should be because it has not had the funding that it might require. Resources are needed to deal with this. The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, raised the issue of trying to bring forward prosecutions to the police. However, the arts and antiquities squads were so underfunded that they resorted to trying to get special constables who were recruited from staff at the British Museum. In my view, that is not a well-funded or well-thought-out prosecution system to deal with a market that runs into the millions of pounds.
Lord Inglewood
My Lords, I would like to intervene to respond to remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and by my noble friend Lord Renfrew. Anybody who is selling an item owns it. They have a duty under due diligence not to handle anything that is suspicious. That way, you always have somebody you can go against if it is, in fact, wrong. Is it really the case that providing the information up front in the auction catalogue—which if it is wrong will be false—is going to solve the problem?
Lord Flight (Con)
My Lords, I am curious to know what the minimum value envisaged is in the amendment from the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. It seems to me that unless those minimums are fairly substantial—maybe a million but certainly in the hundreds of thousands—then it would make a complete shambles of the antique and flea market industry. People can know one generation of owner but they are never going to know the previous generation of owner. Therefore, a passport can operate only where it is clearly an item of substantial value and has had that value for some time.