Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]

Lord Flight Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Inglewood]

My Lords, I would like to intervene to respond to remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and by my noble friend Lord Renfrew. Anybody who is selling an item owns it. They have a duty under due diligence not to handle anything that is suspicious. That way, you always have somebody you can go against if it is, in fact, wrong. Is it really the case that providing the information up front in the auction catalogue—which if it is wrong will be false—is going to solve the problem?

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, I am curious to know what the minimum value envisaged is in the amendment from the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. It seems to me that unless those minimums are fairly substantial—maybe a million but certainly in the hundreds of thousands—then it would make a complete shambles of the antique and flea market industry. People can know one generation of owner but they are never going to know the previous generation of owner. Therefore, a passport can operate only where it is clearly an item of substantial value and has had that value for some time.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I would like to start by addressing Amendment 18. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for the work that he does in this House as an advocate on behalf of the creative industries. Aided by his background as an artist and a writer, he provides a voice in the House for a community that contributes an awful lot to our cultural fabric.

I believe that auctioneers and traders have an important role to play in providing information about the history and background of the items that they sell. That allows the UK’s lawful—I hope—and vibrant marketplace for arts and antiquities to flourish and grow, as many have said.

I have some concerns about the amendment that the noble Earl has tabled with support from the noble Baronesses, Lady Bonham-Carter and Lady Northover, the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and my noble friend Lord Renfrew. Perhaps I can explain why.

First, I continue to believe that it is appropriate to allow the art and antiquities trade to regulate itself. The established trade associations possess codes of ethics by which they expect their members to abide, and we expect the associations to strictly enforce those codes. The codes require that members undertake not to purchase, sell or offer any item of property that they know has been stolen, illegally exported or illegally excavated. Furthermore, we believe that the Dealing in Cultural Objects (Offences) Act 2003, along with the new offence that we are creating, provides a sufficient incentive for legitimate dealers to ensure that they do their due diligence and pass on relevant information concerning the provenance of an object.

The lack of prosecutions—although there has been one—does not mean that the Act has had no effect. It has had a successful deterrent effect, as was rightly noted by my noble friend Lord Inglewood.

I am determined to minimise costly bureaucracy for businesses unless there is a strong case for it being necessary. To my mind, this amendment would be disproportionate, considering that there are, and have been since 1956, very few occupied territories around the world. Thus the number of objects unlawfully exported from such territories is likely to be very low. Given the extremely limited scope of cultural objects that would be classed as unlawfully exported from occupied territory, a measure requiring the provision of detailed information with regard specifically to whether any item of cultural property for sale in the UK has been unlawfully exported from an occupied territory would not be proportionate. To have a statutory passport for items, as some have said, seems like a big burden. It could also, of course, further disadvantage London as a centre for the art and antiquities trade—that would be a perverse effect.

Secondly, I would like to touch on the human rights issue, which has not been given particular prominence. We are concerned that this amendment would infringe Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights because the collection and retention of the names and addresses of all previous owners would interfere with the right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. That cannot, in our opinion, be justified as necessary for achieving the aim of protecting cultural objects.

I turn finally to one of the amendment’s more specific points, which was obliquely referred to by my noble friend Lord Flight, who joined the debate. Monetary value is not an appropriate way of determining whether an object should be covered or not. Such objects may have a significant historical or emotional value for the communities from which they were removed, but not necessarily a high monetary value. That deals with our reservations about Amendment 18.