ECO4 and Insulation Schemes

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Earl of Lytton

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Actually, that is a very interesting question and the answer is yes. Clearly, the failure was in the hands of the companies that got the contracts to provide the services. They have been shown visibly to have failed. However, the regulatory system is a mishmash. There are too many bodies involved. There is confusion about who is responsible for what. The certification bodies can be in competition with each other. There is a risk, therefore, of a lowest common denominator approach. Clearly, we need to improve that, but what we want is not a huge amount of unnecessary bureaucracy but proportionate regulation. I think this can be done more efficiently and the public can have more confidence—and that actually is the Government’s view on regulation generally.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has made several points that certainly chime with me. In a sense, we have been here before because of things such as electro-osmotic damp-proof courses, types of urea formaldehyde foam being put into wall cavities and, more recently, polyurethane foam being sprayed on the inside of roof slopes. All these firms seem to be task-and-finish jobs. I have been involved with this for probably nearly 50 years as a professional dealing with property and I have seen these people come and go and reappear in different guises. If one is going to have a system of regulation-lite and move to individual responsibility, I get that up to a point, but there is not the penetration to make sure that that is constantly policed and enforced, and there is only one other option that is available to prevent people operating like spivs and charlatans, if I can put it that way—that is not to say all in industry are like that, but clearly some of them are—and that is to have a regime of strict liability at director and company level, in the same way as we had with health and safety, in order that they cannot escape the liabilities anything like as quickly simply by disappearing off and becoming insolvent. Would the Minister care to comment on that?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord because he speaks with such expertise in this area. In a sense I should have reflected on that in my answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I am not going to commit myself in terms of what the future is going to look like, but I will take his remarks and make sure my ministerial colleagues see them. As I said, our first task must be remediation and responding to the concerns of 65,000 people who will be very concerned. Obviously, they are going to get the letter from Ofgem; some of them are already getting it. We will then be reflecting very much on how we need to develop a more robust system.

I, too, have experience. I remember being a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions when King’s College reviewed the work of gas installers, and, again, they found a great number of problems. As a result, the whole gas regulation process was shaken up. So we have to look at these things very seriously, because the credibility of the net-zero programme and the decarbonisation of our homes depends on public trust. If we cannot gain the public’s trust, they will not take the necessary action, so we really have to work hard on this.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Earl of Lytton

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it is very good to respond to this debate. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, sees that there is some advantage in the way that we have drafted the Bill.

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for raising what is a really important matter. We all recognise that there are failings in the system by which construction products are tested, assured and made available for sale. The noble Earl described his amendment as probing whether the Government are prepared to use the powers in Clauses 1 and 2 to regulate products used in construction. The noble Earl has huge professional expertise. He referred to the BBA and the specific approval given but warned of the risk of misuse; I very much take that point.

The straightforward answer is that we think this issue is very important. We intend to bring forward robust regulatory reforms in order to provide confidence in the construction products regime and to ensure that only safe products are used in buildings and infrastructure. To that end, we also intend to ensure that the testing and assessment of products’ conformity must be undertaken by those who are competent, impartial and effectively held to account. We have committed to working with the sector on system-wide reform, including examining the institutions that play a key role in the construction products regime, so that businesses and, in particular, consumers can have confidence in the products and services they purchase. The proposed new clause to be inserted after Clause 2, through the noble Earl’s Amendment 46, would place a duty on the Secretary of State to use the powers and to make provision for construction products regulations within a year of Royal Assent of the Bill.

I turn now to the Building Safety Act 2022, about which the noble Earl made some interesting points. That Act already includes powers to introduce construction product requirements and regulations. We are exploring how best to use those available powers, including their sufficiency—I take his point on that—as part of considering system-wide reform. He will know that since the Grenfell tragedy in 2017 some action has been taken on construction products, but we know that more needs to be done.

In December 2018, regulations came into force that banned the use of combustible materials in and on the external walls of buildings over 18 metres. The national regulator for construction products was established in 2021 and leads on market surveillance and enforcement of construction product regulation across the UK.

The Government extended the period of recognition of CE marking for construction products in September this year to give the industry sufficient certainty to support supply chains and to allow time to address the inadequacies across the wider construction products regime, but we recognise that this action is piecemeal and does not go far enough. We have confirmed that we will respond to the Grenfell inquiry within six months. We are also committed to bringing forward proposals for system-wide reform of the construction products regulatory regime.

I have listened very carefully to the noble Earl’s analysis of the Building Safety Act and his suggestion that it is not sufficient for our purposes. We are considering this and I will write to him in some detail about the points he has raised. But to be fair to him, I have to say that this Bill does not specifically exclude construction products and that there could be an opportunity to use the Bill powers in the future should we discover that the Building Safety Act 2022 may be insufficient.

I hope that he will accept this as a positive response to the issues he has raised.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for that reply and I am certainly prepared to accept what he says in relation to the Government’s intentions. I will need to consider very carefully what he has said, particularly if he is writing to me—I am grateful for that offer. I will consider things in the light of that.

Without further ado and given the hour, I simply beg leave to withdraw the amendment.