ECO4 and Insulation Schemes

Earl of Lytton Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Actually, that is a very interesting question and the answer is yes. Clearly, the failure was in the hands of the companies that got the contracts to provide the services. They have been shown visibly to have failed. However, the regulatory system is a mishmash. There are too many bodies involved. There is confusion about who is responsible for what. The certification bodies can be in competition with each other. There is a risk, therefore, of a lowest common denominator approach. Clearly, we need to improve that, but what we want is not a huge amount of unnecessary bureaucracy but proportionate regulation. I think this can be done more efficiently and the public can have more confidence—and that actually is the Government’s view on regulation generally.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has made several points that certainly chime with me. In a sense, we have been here before because of things such as electro-osmotic damp-proof courses, types of urea formaldehyde foam being put into wall cavities and, more recently, polyurethane foam being sprayed on the inside of roof slopes. All these firms seem to be task-and-finish jobs. I have been involved with this for probably nearly 50 years as a professional dealing with property and I have seen these people come and go and reappear in different guises. If one is going to have a system of regulation-lite and move to individual responsibility, I get that up to a point, but there is not the penetration to make sure that that is constantly policed and enforced, and there is only one other option that is available to prevent people operating like spivs and charlatans, if I can put it that way—that is not to say all in industry are like that, but clearly some of them are—and that is to have a regime of strict liability at director and company level, in the same way as we had with health and safety, in order that they cannot escape the liabilities anything like as quickly simply by disappearing off and becoming insolvent. Would the Minister care to comment on that?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord because he speaks with such expertise in this area. In a sense I should have reflected on that in my answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I am not going to commit myself in terms of what the future is going to look like, but I will take his remarks and make sure my ministerial colleagues see them. As I said, our first task must be remediation and responding to the concerns of 65,000 people who will be very concerned. Obviously, they are going to get the letter from Ofgem; some of them are already getting it. We will then be reflecting very much on how we need to develop a more robust system.

I, too, have experience. I remember being a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions when King’s College reviewed the work of gas installers, and, again, they found a great number of problems. As a result, the whole gas regulation process was shaken up. So we have to look at these things very seriously, because the credibility of the net-zero programme and the decarbonisation of our homes depends on public trust. If we cannot gain the public’s trust, they will not take the necessary action, so we really have to work hard on this.