Health and Care Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Baroness, because she was making a significant point. I am not sure that I share her perception that those who buy bottled water in supermarkets necessarily do so as a reflection of their lack of trust in tap water; a lot of it has to do with some myths around the benefits of bottled water. However, be that as it may, I will take advice and write to the noble Baroness. I am not sufficiently sighted on the issue she raised and the evidence behind it, so it is probably appropriate if I look into it and write to her.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate. On dental access, a number of noble Lords—my noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, among others—commented on the great difficulty that many people have at the moment in getting access to an NHS dentist. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, focused in particular on children, which is my particular concern. More energy needs to be put into developing a dental strategy. On thoughts of contracts, anyone who has been a dental Minister will know that the problem with contracts is that dentists always overperform, and the Treasury then claws back in future years, leading to unhappiness and misery in the profession. The fact that the pilot schemes, on which I think work is being based for a future contract, have now stopped, or are going to be stopped, is a great pity, and it does not show positive intent.

On fluoridation, I was delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Young, intervened. A couple of debates ago I was watching on the screen, and he chided me for what I thought was a perfectly formed piece of legislation at the time, many years ago. He talked about his experience as a Minister 42 years ago. I think it was because of his work that I, 37 years ago, as secretary of the Edgware/Hendon Community Health Council, organised public meetings in part of the Borough of Barnet on fluoridation, prior, we hoped, to the then area health authority implementing a fluoridation scheme. Although the public meetings came out strongly in favour of fluoridation, of course nothing happened. I am afraid that the experience in Barnet and Edgware and Hendon was repeated up and down the country, which is why I applaud the Government for doing what they are doing now.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, spoke very eloquently about the evidence from deprived areas. Sandwell, next door to Birmingham, is high up in most indicators of poor health, except in dentistry. That is because, unlike Liverpool, Birmingham City Council took the decision in the 1960s to fluoridate the water supply and Sandwell got the benefit. The result is that, in general, oral health in the West Midlands is very good indeed.

I listened with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Reay. He mentioned the Jauncey judgment, which unfortunately I remember. I remind him that, although Lord Jauncey ruled that Strathclyde Regional Council was exceeding its powers in seeking to fluoridate the water system, he accepted that the amount of fluoride it wanted to put into the system would have no significant adverse effect on health, that fluoridation had been shown to be harmless and that it would be effective. When we quote Lord Jauncey, we need to quote the whole judgment, rather than just whether Strathclyde was found to have the power to put fluoride in the water.

I will not repeat what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said. In only September, the Chief Medical Officers spoke in their judgment about the effectiveness and safety of fluoride. I was very glad to hear the point the noble Earl made about expansion; I am very glad that it is on the Government’s mind. I look forward to the consultation, which I take will be a national one, if there is going to be an expansion; that is very good news indeed.

On cost sharing, I register that this Bill is full of little clauses which give Ministers powers to do something in the future, when they know what they want to do. I mention procurement regulations in Clause 70 at the same time; I think that is going a bit too far. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 224 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope this House gives serious consideration to this amendment. The stories in the Times about considering further NHS reforms are disturbing and have serious implications for this Bill on Report. They should give the House pause for thought in giving the Secretary of State the powers of direction being sought. If another NHS reform is being cooked up in Victoria Street, it raises the question of why Parliament is labouring so long on this Bill.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I shall say a few words in support of the noble Lord, Lord Warner; I put my name to his original Amendment 285 and, obviously, I very much endorse what he said. Reading the Select Committee report again, I find it as fresh as ever and its analysis of the issues faced in the NHS are exactly the pressures we see at the moment. Let us be clear: it was a hard analysis. We are all proud of the NHS, but the report rightly pointed out that it performs poorly in comparison with many countries on many indicators. In acute care, we have worse outcomes for survival for stroke and heart attacks, we lag behind comparable European countries for cancer survival, and we have fewer beds, fewer doctors and fewer nurses per head than OECD averages. As capacity is so tight, it is no wonder, given the current pressures post pandemic, that the NHS is struggling to meet the challenges it faces. We have talked about dental access, but we could talk about the horrendous waiting times for treatment or the dreadful ambulance waiting times which are frightening for people with very serious illnesses.

The Government’s approach is one initiative at a time on the whim of the Secretary of State at the time. We have already got the Messenger review which is bringing in a general to tell the NHS how to manage its services. How many times have we introduced people before? I think Secretary of State Hunt established the report by the noble Lord, Lord Rose. He clearly wanted Rose to say that NHS managers were useless. Of course, the noble Lord did not say that. He said that Ministers are useless at creating circumstances in which managers can thrive. Messenger will come out with the same response and his report will also be rejected because what these reports all say is that the way Ministers lead from the centre is non-conducive to the sensible management of the NHS at local level. Bringing some long-term planning to the NHS with the proposals that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, suggests seems to be eminently sensible. I hope this is one of the issues that we will take to Report because it is fundamental to the future.

I was a bit nonplussed because I was rising to support my noble friend Lady Thornton on her Amendment 281, but she is yet to speak to it. It is always good to see the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, in his place. When we debated the future of Public Health England in the 2011 Bill that led to the 2012 Act, we warned that placing PHE firmly within the department would lead to a complete misunderstanding among all of us about who was responsible for its performance. Lo and behold, we had the Covid crisis and that is what happened. Noble Lords will remember that at the beginning Ministers were briefing that PHE was hopeless and that they had lost confidence in it, and that led to the rushed announcement by the previous Secretary of State about the setting up of the UK Health Security Agency. No one knew, because Ministers kept quiet, that they were accountable for PHE and that PHE staff are officials. They are civil servants directly responsible to Ministers for their performance. The Joint Committee inquiry into Covid identified this. Yes, there were issues with Public Health England’s performance, but Ministers should take responsibility.

We risk repeating the problem with the UK security agency, because, again, it is being set up as an agency part of the department, under the control of Ministers. Once again, when trouble arises, we will see the same pattern of Ministers trying to escape their responsibilities for what is performed by this particular agency. The reason I support my noble friend is that I think she is absolutely right in seeking to place this agency on a more independent basis, so that it can be seen to account for what it does and we can avoid the ambiguity being built into the current situation.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I also want to rise to support Amendment 285 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I was very happy to put my name to that. As the noble Lord said, I was also a member of your Lordships’ Committee on the Long-term Sustainability of the NHS and Adult Social Care.

Noble Lords who have been following this set of Committee days will realise that this amendment goes to the heart of a lot of what we have been talking about, which is the conflict between short-termism and long-term planning. The Bill is about the integration of health and social care, improving health outcomes and reducing health inequalities. They are not short-term fixes; it is a long-term journey, which will mean long-term plans.

As an independent body, this body does not stop Ministers being able to control health policy. It sets out a framework of what is required in terms of staffing; what the issues will be in terms of disease profile; what will happen in terms of demand; and for seeing how successful the Government have been, not just in being able to give a press release about certain amounts of money going to a certain area but in whether the long-term benefits of that money are achieving better health outcomes, reducing health inequalities and getting the right staffing to the right places to get a better health and social care system for the people of England. That is what this body is about. I think that, of all the amendments we have discussed—I probably would say this, because my name is to it—this is one of the most important, because it deals with the conflict between the priorities of short-termism and long-term planning.

I also want to say, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, did, that I was astounded, as a former health service manager, that no one in the Department for Health planned for long-term care in the healthcare system. We expected the answer that at least there was somebody in a darkened room doing it. But there was absolutely nobody doing it; it was all about the whim of the Minister. In reality, that was what came out.

I think this amendment actually helps with the central purpose of this Bill, of integrating healthcare, reducing health inequalities and improving health outcomes, because it is long-term. I think it is absolutely right that this House and the public understand how the Government are doing against independent reviews at five, 10 and 15 years. We will be able to see whether the right staff, the right money and the right focus on prevention versus dealing with the acute sector are actually happening, and whether Governments, of one or two or three colours, over a period of time, are improving the healthcare system the population and leading to better health outcomes.

I also support Amendment 281, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has talked about. For me, public health has been kicked for too many years between different parts of the care and health system. In particular, when you have an executive agency whose primary responsibility is to plan and then co-ordinate public health—not just at government level, but within local government and across government—if it is not independent and is not a statutory body, yet again it just plays to the whim of Ministers. I will give an example of why it is not working in its present form, based on something that has just happened in the last few weeks.