Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 1st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Andrews is right to say that this has been a fascinating debate. I, too, pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Richard, his committee and the clerks for the work that they have done. However, we are also indebted to those members of the Select Committee who produced the alternative report. Taken together, they provide an invaluable reference point for our future debates on reform of your Lordships’ House.

In this excellent debate many noble Lords have questioned the priority that the Government are giving to Lords reform when our economy is in such a perilous position. I agree with that. Over these two days of debate some noble Lords have argued that reform of the second Chamber cannot be considered in isolation from other constitutional issues such as a referendum in Scotland and other changes that the Government are making or have made. I agree with that. However, we will have further ample opportunity to debate those wider issues when we discuss the Queen’s Speech. I would like to focus my remarks on the role and powers of an elected second Chamber and its relationship with the Commons. The Joint Committee has identified this, as have most other noble Lords, as going to the heart of the controversy over Lords reform.

The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, teases me about my position and that of the Opposition. I make it clear that the Official Opposition support reform of your Lordships’ House. We are proud of the legislation that we introduced in 1999, which removed most of the hereditary Peers. In the years since, this House has become ever more effective as a House of scrutiny and revision. It is this House that has held Ministers properly to account and has so often saved Governments from themselves. Would the other place have acted similarly? I want to see reforms make us better still. The Official Opposition support an elected House. However, that must not be at the expense of primacy of the Commons, nor must it threaten gridlock or detract from our role as an effective revising Chamber. Further, these changes should take place only with the specific consent of the British people.

Mr Clegg told the other place on 20 March 2012 that nothing in his plans would change the primacy of the Commons. Remarkably, he denied that there was an automatic link between changing the composition of the Lords and changing the balance of power between the two Houses.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I would like to refer to the noble Lord’s work on this issue as we have been through so many of these discussions together. The 2008 White Paper on an elected second Chamber states:

“There is no reason why any further increase in the authority and effectiveness of the second chamber following elections should undermine the primacy of the House of Commons”.

I suspect that the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister are quoting the noble Lord. If he would like me to go through all the other ways in which he has endorsed what is now in the draft Bill—for example, as regards the 80:20 ratio—I would be very happy to do so, but he should reread his own work.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for reminding me of the heroic efforts that I, other noble Lords and Members of the other place made in producing that White Paper. However, that was work in progress. We tried to reach consensus. The problem we have is that when Mr Clegg took over responsibility for this matter he convened a joint group of all the parties and when my noble friend raised the issues of powers and a referendum, that group met no more. We now have the benefit of the work of the Select Committee and of the alternative group, which has taken the debate on powers and primacy further than it has ever been taken before. We need to listen to what those reports say.

We should remember that very few noble Lords agree with Mr Clegg’s view. There is now an overwhelming consensus that an elected House would affect the balance of power. Whether it affects primacy is another question but it would certainly affect the balance of power between the two Houses. We heard the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, say yesterday that he would like an elected second Chamber to be able to veto the UK going to war. We heard a statesmanlike speech from the noble Lord, Lord True, but even he, too, talked about Houses that are co-equal. The problem that we have comes back to Clause 2 of the draft Bill, which states:

“Nothing … affects the status of the House of Lords … the primacy of the House of Commons … or the conventions governing the relationships between the two Houses”.

The problem, as the Select Committee itself pointed out, is that, “a major difficulty” with Clause 2 is that it,

“seeks to establish a series of negative propositions”,

in relation to “key terms”, such as,

“status, primacy, powers, rights, privileges, jurisdiction and conventions”.

There is no existing body of statute defining these key terms.

The Government have clearly rejected at this point proposals to set out in statute the powers and relationships between the two Houses, and to amend the Parliament Acts. The reason is that a complete statutory codification would lead to tensions as to where the boundary lay between Parliament’s own processes and the courts’ interpretation of statute law. I understand that argument, but my point is this: those tensions will be nothing as to the tension between two elected Houses vying for supremacy—and they will vie.

We are clear that Clause 2 will not do. My noble friend Lord Richard tells us that Clause 2 will not do. I hope that the Minister, when he responds, will not simply say that we can tinker around with Clause 2. The overwhelming argument put to him in this debate is that the Government have to go away and think again about how to define the powers of and relationship between the two Houses.

I should like to come back to the Parliament Acts and the preamble to the 1911 Act. It suggested that for a Chamber constituted on a popular basis new proposals would be needed,

“limiting and defining the powers of the new Second Chamber”.

Why have the Government not made such proposals for limiting or defining those powers? What does the Minister have to say in response to the evidence of my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that the drafters of the 1911 Act did not intend its provisions to apply in the event of a second Chamber being constituted on a popular basis? The Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, rather ducked that point in his opening speech—but it is a crucial point. It is perhaps the most crucial point of all. Yesterday, my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon regretted the absence of the Attorney-General’s advice to the Select Committee on the Parliament Acts. I ask the Minister why that advice was not made available, and will it be put at the disposal of Parliament if a Bill is introduced following the Queen’s Speech?

I turn to the conventions. The committee of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, said that in a formal sense the Lords has equal status with the Commons as a House of Parliament in initiating Bills and passing them, subject to financial privilege and the Parliament Acts, and equal status in approving delegated legislation. In reality, as that committee said, the formal position has come to be moderated by conventions reflecting the primacy of the Commons, and those conventions are “flexible and unenforceable”. Indeed, the Joint Select Committee comments that:

“It is paradoxical and self-defeating to refer to conventions in statute”,

as the draft Bill does. The report continues,

“once the meaning of a convention had been legally determined, it would no longer be a convention”.

The committee’s solution is that the two Houses should, following reform,

“establish a means of defining and agreeing the conventions … by the adoption of a ‘concordat’”.

However, by that time it will be too late. What if there were no agreement? In any case, do conventions have anything to offer between two competing elected Chambers, each claiming equal legitimacy?

Meg Russell, of the Constitution Unit at UCL, said that,

“elected chambers … feel free to use their powers to the full, in a way that the House of Lords currently does not”.

The Joint Committee said that if the Lords,

“chose to use its powers, it would be one of the most powerful second chambers in the world”,

and that the reformed second Chamber,

“should have an electoral mandate provided it has commensurate powers”.

However, few would want to see both Chambers locked into endless conflict, and the logical outcome of this is that the role, functions and powers of the House should be determined and agreed before any change is made to its composition.

On the question of a referendum, surely the British people should have the final say. An elected second Chamber would be a major constitutional change. Surely no one could disagree with that. It is rather more important, I suggest, than decisions on mayors—even on the Mayor of Birmingham—or the minutiae of European legislation. It is as important as voting systems for the House of Commons. On all these matters, the Government have recognised the need for the people to decide through a referendum. The Joint Select Committee has so recommended, yet Mr Clegg dismisses it out of hand. What is the Deputy Prime Minister so frightened of?

[A noble Lord]

Democracy.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Democracy, ah! He told the House of Commons on 20 March that a referendum was not appropriate because he proposed to reform the composition of the House, rather than abolish it. Surely that is disingenuous. Whatever our arguments about reform, elections or non-elections, these proposals are fundamental and change the second Chamber. In fact, Mr Clegg’s arguments have moved on since 20 March —understandably perhaps. We are now told that we cannot have a referendum because Lords reform was in the three party manifestos at the last election. However, my party’s manifesto said that we would have a referendum. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, reminded us that the Conservative Party manifesto pledged to work towards a consensus for a mainly elected House. I imagine that it related to a consensus in the normal sense of the word, rather than the interesting interpretation made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, yesterday. The coalition agreement, to which we all dutifully pay obeisance committed only “to bring forward proposals” on Lords reform. Mr Clegg’s arguments are as thin as his draft Bill.

As for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, about his own heroic role on this question, I refer him to page 163 of volume 1 of the Joint Committee’s report, which records the vote that took place on the issue of whether the Government should submit to a referendum the decision on changes to the second Chamber. There were 13 contents and 8 not-contents, and the not-contents included the noble Lord, Lord Tyler.

[Lord Tyler]

The noble Lord is really kind, but it was quite clear from the discussion—and of course he was not present—that that was intended to refer to a referendum on the Government’s proposals. I have always said, in common with most of the other decisions taken by this country in referenda, that they should be post-legislative. That was what I was referring to very clearly in my speech today.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, what the report says is:

“The Committee recommends that, in view of the significance of the constitutional change brought forward by an elected House of Lords, the Government should submit the decision to a referendum”.

That is pretty clear. The noble Lord is being rather pedantic on that point.

Time moves on. We have debated many other issues and I wanted to pick just three from our debates. First, on the question of representation, the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Dubs, made some excellent points that elected Lords will expect to represent their constituents and should be resourced to do so. That must be part of their accountability to the electorate. We cannot have a situation whereby elected Members of Parliament are discouraged from direct contact with their constituents and almost inhibited from helping them with constituency cases.

On hybridity, I sense strong concern in our debate. One can see why it would be attractive to retain an independent element in an elected House, but I suspect that the 20 per cent appointed Members would feel increasingly uncomfortable and isolated in a House dominated by elected politicians. If the votes of the appointed Members helped to thwart the views of a majority of elected Members, I doubt that they would last very long. I well remember when we were in government, particularly in the early days, that when we lost votes, we put out press notices which showed that it was because of the way that hereditary Peers had voted. The temptation for any political bloc to do that would be overwhelming. Hybridity is a nice idea. One understands why it is being put forward, but I sense that in two days of debate, the argument has fallen.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, let me be clear about what the noble Lord is saying. Is he saying that the Labour Party’s position is that it would not support a Bill unless it was for a 100 per cent elected second Chamber without the Cross-Benchers?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, we have always said that we would support a 100 per cent elected House.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Consistently in the new Parliament we have argued for a 100 per cent elected House.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, the noble Lord says that we have consistently supported a 100 per cent elected House. I have to tell him that I part-authored a book many years ago in which I called for a two-thirds elected House and a one-third nominated House. I have never resiled from the principle that the majority should be elected but that a minority should be appointed. I do not want to go on about this, but I have always been in favour of what the late John Smith used to call a predominantly but not exclusively elected House of Lords. If the Labour Party’s position has now changed, I would be upset.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for his contribution and for his long campaign and support for democratic reform of your Lordships’ House, but I am absolutely clear. I advisedly said that, since the election, the policy of my party is to support a 100 per cent elected House.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

My Lords, it is important that we are clear on this—by the way, of course I agree with that position. Is the noble Lord saying that the Labour Party would not support 80 per cent elected, 20 per cent appointed?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Our position is very clear. If there is to be an elected House, it should be 100 per cent elected. Of course, we also believe that we have to sort out the powers issue, because the two go together.

I come back to the issue of costs. I thought that my noble friend Lord Lipsey put forward some interesting evidence. I thought that it was a bit unfair for the noble Lord, Lord Tyler—his interventions are always enjoyed by your Lordships’ House—and Ministers to dismiss his work as highly speculative, because the Government will not put their costings into the public domain. This can be sorted very quickly if the Minister will offer to the House today to put those costings in the Libraries of both Houses so that we can study them with great care.

As for the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, on salaries, I would have thought that that meant that only rich people need apply, but that is a rather familiar refrain from some parts of the coalition Government at the moment.

We come to the end of our debate. I, too, hope that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, will provide some reassurance that the Government will reflect on this debate and study both reports with great care. I say again that I hope that the Government will not rush to produce a Bill with minor tinkering around Clause 2. That would be very disappointing.

I also hope that the Minister will explain why, when the country faces so many challenges, not least on the economy, Lords reform is apparently to be a centrepiece of the Government’s legislative proposals in the Queen’s Speech. That is a rather strange sense of priorities. Last night, my noble friend Lord Stevenson referred to the observation of the late Lord Bingham that there is simply no solution to the problem of Lords reform. That is why, Lord Bingham said, despite an immense outpouring of time and talent, no solution has been found. I do not go that far, but I think that in a non-federal state, working out the relationship between two elected Houses is very difficult. The charge that I put to the Minister is that the Government have not begun to think this through.

I hope that the Government will agree to allow for the role, functions and powers of an elected second Chamber to be determined before proposals on membership are made. Above all, I hope that the Government will agree to such proposals being put to the British people in a referendum. In the end, should not the people decide?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to almost the entire debate and particularly to my noble friend’s contribution. Many within the Government will be reading the debate in Hansard. As I said at the beginning, I did not hear much with which I was not already familiar. I suspect that that may be true of many noble Lords. Of course we shall be reflecting on matters and, if proposals are brought forward in the Queen’s Speech, a great deal of what has been said will be reflected in those proposals.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the Minister says that he has not heard anything new, but would he not accept that in both reports the argument particularly about powers and legitimacy have been developed in a way that we have not seen before? Can he assure the House that we will not simply get another version of the Bill showing marginal changes? He owes it to the House to say that the Government will consider the reports carefully.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, of course, this is a debate to take note of the Richard report. It has been read extensively within the Government as well as outside. I trust that all noble Lords have read all three volumes, including the splendid compliment made by my noble friend Lord Cormack to the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, in which he commented on her extreme youth. The conclusions will be considered within the Government, but the proposals on the table are those on which the Richard report commented.

I recognise that many noble Lords would like some entirely different proposals. Undoubtedly, if the proposals are brought forward, they will be modified by comments made in this House and elsewhere. That is the nature of the to and fro of democratic debate and those are the efforts that we all make in attempting to reach a consensus.

The question is, as the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, remarked: what is our central problem? Part of the central problem, which the Government aimed to address, was how to increase the legitimacy—