Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Tyler Excerpts

Tuesday 1st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I do not think that the draft Bill is perfect, but I think it will be improved by the work of the Joint Committee. Pre-legislative scrutiny, which this House believes in, has been undertaken manfully and womanfully by the committee headed by the noble Lord, Lord Richard. However, I suspect that he, too, shares with me some surprise at the way in which our conclusions have been interpreted or even misinterpreted.

I was here until the early hours of the morning. I was the only member of the Joint Committee still able to be upright, and to avoid repetition I will concentrate on just two issues that are media myths. The first is cost. I have studied the alternative report with care, and while I differ with various conclusions I respect the integrity and conviction with which the authors argue their case or cases. However, they should have been more careful when it came to using figures on potential costs. For example, it is ridiculous to use costs that were clearly speculative 10 months ago. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, who is now in his place, has been perfectly open and honest that he prepared those cockshy estimates many months ago when the Joint Committee was not even set up and had not reported. I am therefore very sad that those figures have been used.

First, let me reiterate what the Joint Committee recommended. We unanimously agreed that the independent assessment of salaries and allowances should be left to IPSA, not to the Government, let alone to the present House of Lords. By emphasising that new Members, whether elected or appointed, need not be full-time parliamentarians, we discouraged IPSA from suggesting a full-time salary. I suspect that the appropriate answer may well be a part-time salary, perhaps half that of an MP’s. Members of your Lordships’ House who have been MPs know how hard they work. They of course have to work when Parliament is not sitting in a way that we do not.

More importantly, this package will no longer be tax-free, as the present allowances are. It would be reasonable to expect a very modest net salary figure for year one for the 150 new members—120 elected, 30 appointed—who will replace the departing 92 hereditaries. Without a definitive figure for the number of life Peers retiring—the Joint Committee makes recommendations that are more ambitious than the government Bill—it is too early to estimate the savings on the present generous daily allowances, but obviously that, too, will be substantial. The estimated figure—

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, criticised my noble friend Lord Lipsey because he did not have at his disposal all the facts relating to the costs of the new Chamber. Yet the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, does not have all the facts at his disposal either. If the Government had come forward with costings when the report went to Joint Committee, we would not be having this muddled discussion now.

[Lord Tyler]

I hear what the noble Baroness says, but these are the conclusions of the unanimous report in this respect. It is just that I, rather than the Government, am interpreting it. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, and other members of the Joint Committee agree with what I am saying about the recommendations of the Joint Committee. That is all I am doing. I am not blaming the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey. He prepared his figures long before the Joint Committee sat, let alone made its recommendations.

I am trying to keep within my time limit. Many other noble Lords have gone over it, but I will try to make progress. We specifically advised against the funding of any but the most minimal staff to undertake parliamentary duties, so the staffing figure of £31 million is just pie in the sky. Finally, since it is recommended that the election of the new Members would be at the same time as the 2015 general election polling day, the extra cost would obviously be marginal. Of course, the cost of not reforming your Lordships’ House, with more appointments to re-balance the party numbers and with the allowances doubling in every decade, would be phenomenal. If we retain the present membership of the House and it is increased by re-balancing, those tax-free allowances would go through the roof. Would that be good value for taxpayers’ money in this period of austerity?

The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, has generously—

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, will the noble Lord concede that few if any Members of your Lordships’ House believe, as far as I am aware, that the current arrangements could continue for much longer? The question is not whether reform is needed but what kind.

[Lord Tyler]

The noble Baroness is right, but there is no proposal yet on the table. I am illustrating the cost implications of the Joint Committee’s report. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, has generously already cut his cost estimate by £100 million at least. In fact, the year one extra cost might be—

[Lord Lipsey]

My Lords, my patience is great but has now been exhausted. I prepared the best costing possible of the Government’s proposals. It is perfectly true, as I said in my speech yesterday, that the Joint Committee’s proposals will cost slightly less because they make wholly unrealistic assumptions about what it is possible to do for transitional Members, but I have not cut my costs by £100 million. I stand by my costs. Until the Government or the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, find some better criticism than he puts forward this morning, I shall stand by them to the last.

[Lord Tyler]

I hope the noble Lord will now read the Joint Committee report, because there are specific recommendations in it that do not concur with his conclusions.

The second issue is the media myth that somehow or other the public are completely opposed to any reform of your Lordships’ House. I draw particular attention to paragraph 17 of the report and the footnote. The 2010 British Social Attitudes Survey shows that 59 per cent are in support of wholly or partly elected Members and 22 per cent are in favour of abolition—completely sweeping the House of Lords away and having a unicameral system. That is the real danger. Only 6 per cent wish to continue as a wholly appointed House. That is endorsed by the January 2012 YouGov poll, where 71 per cent support wholly or partly elected Members and 10 per cent support wholly appointed Members. Last week, two more polls showed insignificant figures for a wholly appointed House. Those who—

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

If all the indicators are that the public are in favour of the reform, why is the noble Lord so adamantly opposed to a referendum? It could only confirm his view.

[Lord Tyler]

I have always been in favour of referendums. I have no problem with a referendum and I will explain why in a minute. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for feeding me that line.

Those who oppose the Government’s evolutionary reform process should remember that this is firmly based on the report prepared by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and Mr Jack Straw. Every element is there, such as the primacy issue and 80:20. I can quote that back to the noble Lord and look forward with huge interest to hearing what he will say in a few minutes from the opposition Front Bench. This Bill builds on that evolution and the work undertaken by the previous Government. It is supported by large numbers of Members on the other side of the House.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I am surprised that he is in favour of a referendum. I have in front of me some evidence to the contrary. The noble Lord voted against referendums in the Select Committee.

[Lord Tyler]

The noble Baroness misunderstands the position. I am totally relaxed about a post-legislative referendum, which is how we have undertaken referendums in the main in the past in this country. I will certainly support one when the time comes.

More people are in favour of the abolition of your Lordships’ House—three or four times more—than in retaining a fully appointed House. I hope that Members will recognise that that is a real danger ahead of us. Going back to the noble Lord’s question, that is why, if this House resists clear public pressure for reform, there will come an opportunity for the public to have their say. The longer Members of your Lordships’ House seek to obstruct the public, the more the will of the public will have to be given an opportunity.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords—

[Lord Tyler]

I am trying to keep within my time. I have already been interrupted on a number of occasions and other Members managed to go beyond their time. I am personally very relaxed about referendums. I very much hope that the time will come when the public will be able, as they did 100 years ago, to express their fears about the way in which this House has become so undemocratic.

As I said, I was here for all the speeches yesterday, bar two or three, right through until past midnight. This debate has been notable for the small number of courageous Peers who have stuck to the promises that they have campaigned on for so long. I hope that, when the time comes, they will stick to their principles, too.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

Was the question put to the public for a mandate to serve on a similar term to that in the Commons or for Peers to be elected for 15 years and then be unable to stand again? To me, that is not democratic accountability; it is an appointment for someone to say whatever they like for the next 15 years.

[Lord Tyler]

I am sorry that the noble Baroness did not feel able to speak during the debate yesterday; she could have made that point. I will happily discuss with her the four major polls that have been undertaken and that clearly demonstrate support for the evolution of the democratic principle as the basis of representation in this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Andrews is right to say that this has been a fascinating debate. I, too, pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Richard, his committee and the clerks for the work that they have done. However, we are also indebted to those members of the Select Committee who produced the alternative report. Taken together, they provide an invaluable reference point for our future debates on reform of your Lordships’ House.

In this excellent debate many noble Lords have questioned the priority that the Government are giving to Lords reform when our economy is in such a perilous position. I agree with that. Over these two days of debate some noble Lords have argued that reform of the second Chamber cannot be considered in isolation from other constitutional issues such as a referendum in Scotland and other changes that the Government are making or have made. I agree with that. However, we will have further ample opportunity to debate those wider issues when we discuss the Queen’s Speech. I would like to focus my remarks on the role and powers of an elected second Chamber and its relationship with the Commons. The Joint Committee has identified this, as have most other noble Lords, as going to the heart of the controversy over Lords reform.

The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, teases me about my position and that of the Opposition. I make it clear that the Official Opposition support reform of your Lordships’ House. We are proud of the legislation that we introduced in 1999, which removed most of the hereditary Peers. In the years since, this House has become ever more effective as a House of scrutiny and revision. It is this House that has held Ministers properly to account and has so often saved Governments from themselves. Would the other place have acted similarly? I want to see reforms make us better still. The Official Opposition support an elected House. However, that must not be at the expense of primacy of the Commons, nor must it threaten gridlock or detract from our role as an effective revising Chamber. Further, these changes should take place only with the specific consent of the British people.

Mr Clegg told the other place on 20 March 2012 that nothing in his plans would change the primacy of the Commons. Remarkably, he denied that there was an automatic link between changing the composition of the Lords and changing the balance of power between the two Houses.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I would like to refer to the noble Lord’s work on this issue as we have been through so many of these discussions together. The 2008 White Paper on an elected second Chamber states:

“There is no reason why any further increase in the authority and effectiveness of the second chamber following elections should undermine the primacy of the House of Commons”.

I suspect that the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister are quoting the noble Lord. If he would like me to go through all the other ways in which he has endorsed what is now in the draft Bill—for example, as regards the 80:20 ratio—I would be very happy to do so, but he should reread his own work.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for reminding me of the heroic efforts that I, other noble Lords and Members of the other place made in producing that White Paper. However, that was work in progress. We tried to reach consensus. The problem we have is that when Mr Clegg took over responsibility for this matter he convened a joint group of all the parties and when my noble friend raised the issues of powers and a referendum, that group met no more. We now have the benefit of the work of the Select Committee and of the alternative group, which has taken the debate on powers and primacy further than it has ever been taken before. We need to listen to what those reports say.

We should remember that very few noble Lords agree with Mr Clegg’s view. There is now an overwhelming consensus that an elected House would affect the balance of power. Whether it affects primacy is another question but it would certainly affect the balance of power between the two Houses. We heard the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, say yesterday that he would like an elected second Chamber to be able to veto the UK going to war. We heard a statesmanlike speech from the noble Lord, Lord True, but even he, too, talked about Houses that are co-equal. The problem that we have comes back to Clause 2 of the draft Bill, which states:

“Nothing … affects the status of the House of Lords … the primacy of the House of Commons … or the conventions governing the relationships between the two Houses”.

The problem, as the Select Committee itself pointed out, is that, “a major difficulty” with Clause 2 is that it,

“seeks to establish a series of negative propositions”,

in relation to “key terms”, such as,

“status, primacy, powers, rights, privileges, jurisdiction and conventions”.

There is no existing body of statute defining these key terms.

The Government have clearly rejected at this point proposals to set out in statute the powers and relationships between the two Houses, and to amend the Parliament Acts. The reason is that a complete statutory codification would lead to tensions as to where the boundary lay between Parliament’s own processes and the courts’ interpretation of statute law. I understand that argument, but my point is this: those tensions will be nothing as to the tension between two elected Houses vying for supremacy—and they will vie.

We are clear that Clause 2 will not do. My noble friend Lord Richard tells us that Clause 2 will not do. I hope that the Minister, when he responds, will not simply say that we can tinker around with Clause 2. The overwhelming argument put to him in this debate is that the Government have to go away and think again about how to define the powers of and relationship between the two Houses.

I should like to come back to the Parliament Acts and the preamble to the 1911 Act. It suggested that for a Chamber constituted on a popular basis new proposals would be needed,

“limiting and defining the powers of the new Second Chamber”.

Why have the Government not made such proposals for limiting or defining those powers? What does the Minister have to say in response to the evidence of my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that the drafters of the 1911 Act did not intend its provisions to apply in the event of a second Chamber being constituted on a popular basis? The Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, rather ducked that point in his opening speech—but it is a crucial point. It is perhaps the most crucial point of all. Yesterday, my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon regretted the absence of the Attorney-General’s advice to the Select Committee on the Parliament Acts. I ask the Minister why that advice was not made available, and will it be put at the disposal of Parliament if a Bill is introduced following the Queen’s Speech?

I turn to the conventions. The committee of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, said that in a formal sense the Lords has equal status with the Commons as a House of Parliament in initiating Bills and passing them, subject to financial privilege and the Parliament Acts, and equal status in approving delegated legislation. In reality, as that committee said, the formal position has come to be moderated by conventions reflecting the primacy of the Commons, and those conventions are “flexible and unenforceable”. Indeed, the Joint Select Committee comments that:

“It is paradoxical and self-defeating to refer to conventions in statute”,

as the draft Bill does. The report continues,

“once the meaning of a convention had been legally determined, it would no longer be a convention”.

The committee’s solution is that the two Houses should, following reform,

“establish a means of defining and agreeing the conventions … by the adoption of a ‘concordat’”.

However, by that time it will be too late. What if there were no agreement? In any case, do conventions have anything to offer between two competing elected Chambers, each claiming equal legitimacy?

Meg Russell, of the Constitution Unit at UCL, said that,

“elected chambers … feel free to use their powers to the full, in a way that the House of Lords currently does not”.

The Joint Committee said that if the Lords,

“chose to use its powers, it would be one of the most powerful second chambers in the world”,

and that the reformed second Chamber,

“should have an electoral mandate provided it has commensurate powers”.

However, few would want to see both Chambers locked into endless conflict, and the logical outcome of this is that the role, functions and powers of the House should be determined and agreed before any change is made to its composition.

On the question of a referendum, surely the British people should have the final say. An elected second Chamber would be a major constitutional change. Surely no one could disagree with that. It is rather more important, I suggest, than decisions on mayors—even on the Mayor of Birmingham—or the minutiae of European legislation. It is as important as voting systems for the House of Commons. On all these matters, the Government have recognised the need for the people to decide through a referendum. The Joint Select Committee has so recommended, yet Mr Clegg dismisses it out of hand. What is the Deputy Prime Minister so frightened of?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Democracy, ah! He told the House of Commons on 20 March that a referendum was not appropriate because he proposed to reform the composition of the House, rather than abolish it. Surely that is disingenuous. Whatever our arguments about reform, elections or non-elections, these proposals are fundamental and change the second Chamber. In fact, Mr Clegg’s arguments have moved on since 20 March —understandably perhaps. We are now told that we cannot have a referendum because Lords reform was in the three party manifestos at the last election. However, my party’s manifesto said that we would have a referendum. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, reminded us that the Conservative Party manifesto pledged to work towards a consensus for a mainly elected House. I imagine that it related to a consensus in the normal sense of the word, rather than the interesting interpretation made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, yesterday. The coalition agreement, to which we all dutifully pay obeisance committed only “to bring forward proposals” on Lords reform. Mr Clegg’s arguments are as thin as his draft Bill.

As for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, about his own heroic role on this question, I refer him to page 163 of volume 1 of the Joint Committee’s report, which records the vote that took place on the issue of whether the Government should submit to a referendum the decision on changes to the second Chamber. There were 13 contents and 8 not-contents, and the not-contents included the noble Lord, Lord Tyler.

[Lord Tyler]

The noble Lord is really kind, but it was quite clear from the discussion—and of course he was not present—that that was intended to refer to a referendum on the Government’s proposals. I have always said, in common with most of the other decisions taken by this country in referenda, that they should be post-legislative. That was what I was referring to very clearly in my speech today.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, what the report says is:

“The Committee recommends that, in view of the significance of the constitutional change brought forward by an elected House of Lords, the Government should submit the decision to a referendum”.

That is pretty clear. The noble Lord is being rather pedantic on that point.

Time moves on. We have debated many other issues and I wanted to pick just three from our debates. First, on the question of representation, the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Dubs, made some excellent points that elected Lords will expect to represent their constituents and should be resourced to do so. That must be part of their accountability to the electorate. We cannot have a situation whereby elected Members of Parliament are discouraged from direct contact with their constituents and almost inhibited from helping them with constituency cases.

On hybridity, I sense strong concern in our debate. One can see why it would be attractive to retain an independent element in an elected House, but I suspect that the 20 per cent appointed Members would feel increasingly uncomfortable and isolated in a House dominated by elected politicians. If the votes of the appointed Members helped to thwart the views of a majority of elected Members, I doubt that they would last very long. I well remember when we were in government, particularly in the early days, that when we lost votes, we put out press notices which showed that it was because of the way that hereditary Peers had voted. The temptation for any political bloc to do that would be overwhelming. Hybridity is a nice idea. One understands why it is being put forward, but I sense that in two days of debate, the argument has fallen.