Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to open the Back-Bench debate by thanking the Minister for her opening address and, like her, welcoming the maiden speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Remnant and Lord Ashcombe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor. I reassure the Minister that I support the Bill and the intent to modernise our financial services and ensure that the City retains its competitiveness in a global marketplace. However, this has to be done in parallel with measures to promote financial stability, inclusion and consumer protection as well as—I hope—recommitting the Government to making the City the first net-zero aligned financial centre.

Like the Minister, I can concentrate on only three or four aspects of this. First, I want to talk about financial inclusion. How is the Government to address the poverty premium—the extra costs that poorer people pay for essential services such as insurance, loans or credit cards? This is closely linked to the ease of access to cash and banking services, to which the Minister referred. The fact is that the Bill does nothing to protect essential face-to-face banking services, which the most vulnerable in our society depend on for financial advice and support.

Indeed, on this Government’s watch, almost 6,000 bank branches have closed since 2015, yet there is a significant overlap between those reliant on cash—estimated at about 10 million people—and those who need in-person bank support. Those without the digital skills to bank online, people with poor internet connections and people who are unable to afford wi-fi are at risk of being left behind.

The Government have committed to protecting access to cash, but will free access be protected? The key to this is ensuring that the ATM network is sufficiently funded by the interchange fee. Since 2018, this funding has seen successive real-term cuts, which is risking the closure or the conversion of an estimated 37,000 free-to-use ATMs. I believe that the regulator must be mandated to consider the funding of ATMs through legislation in this Bill.

I hope that we will do more to protect people from the buy now, pay later industry. We know that many millions of people are borrowing to pay their mortgages, and to put food on their table and clothes on their children’s backs. A quarter of all buy now, pay later users have been unable to pay for at least one essential item because they are having to make repayments on buy now, pay later products. Many did not realise what they were getting themselves into because buy now, pay later is currently so pervasive on websites. Users have nobody to complain to; they cannot go to the ombudsman if they feel they have been mis-sold this type of credit. I understand that the Government have accepted proposals to regulate, yet regulation has not come. Why is that, and why cannot this Bill be the vehicle?

I turn now to financial fraud. The Bill offers protection for victims of authorised push payment scams but little to address the growing problem of financial fraud. According to the latest figures from the NAO, 41% of all crime against individuals in the year ending June 2022—with an estimated 3.8 million incidents—was actual or attempted fraud. Yet, the number of fraud offences resulting in a charge or summons is pathetic. In the year ending March 2022, 4,816 fraud cases resulted in a charge or summons. Moreover, less than 1% of police personnel were involved in rendering fraud investigations in the year ending March 2020.

I am particularly concerned about the impact on older people. As Hourglass has pointed out, suffering economic abuse as an older person can have really life-changing effects leading to trauma, mental health problems and, in some cases, death. I do not understand why the Government continue to fail to take fraud seriously and why we cannot see a fully fledged fraud strategy. Again, this Bill provides an excellent vehicle for us to ensure that that happens.

Finally, one other area where the Bill could have done so much more is in relation to cryptocurrency. Recent events following the collapse of FTX have shown the risks in the Government’s aim to make the UK a global hub for cryptocurrency assets. It is true that the Bill contains measures to bring stablecoins into the scope of regulation, but surely they could be doing much more. I say to the Minister: overall, the Bill is welcome but it is certainly ripe for improvement.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 25th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I share the views of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, to a large extent, but I agree with my noble friend Lady Noakes that the question of parliamentary scrutiny is better dealt with when we come to that part of the Bill to which her amendments are tabled.

I declare my interest as a director of two investment companies, as stated in the register. On the whole, I welcome the Government’s amendments in this group and look forward to hearing my noble friend the Minister explain them. Insofar as they increase the powers of the regulators, I welcome the improved clarity and transparency, but we need to improve the method of scrutiny and degree of regulators’ accountability to Parliament, as I have said.

I support my noble friend Lady Noakes in her Amendments 244 and 245. While the task of reviewing, revoking and replacing retained EU financial services law is monumental, it is important that there be a time limit to this process. Ideally, it should be completed this year, because more than four years have passed since the passage of the withdrawal Act and more than two years since the end of the transition period. We have not acted as fast as we should perhaps have done in moving to exploit the opportunities available to make bold moves away from the cumbersome, expensive and anti-competitive regulatory regime that has progressively constrained the competitiveness of the City of London and its innate ability to innovate. There has been some inbuilt resistance to making any changes, and I am glad that this Bill takes some significant steps in that direction.

I would have preferred the Bill to be more radical and to require that certain EU regulations automatically be repealed without replacement, such as the whole regime around the alternative investment fund managers directive and its subordinate legislation. That directive was opposed by the whole City establishment and has served merely to divert new and innovative fund managers wishing to launch new products for professional investors away from the City to other jurisdictions. However, too little work has yet been done, and I think that my noble friend’s suggested latest revocation date of 2026 is a reasonable compromise. I look forward to discussing that later, and I hope the Government will accept my noble friend’s two amendments.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to lend some support to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for raising the issue of parliamentary scrutiny in relation to this clause and Schedule 1. Clause 1 and Schedule 1 are an extraordinary exercise in executive powers through regulations and the regulators. In a later debate some days down the line, we are coming on to that issue, but it is appropriate that we start this debate with a reminder to the Minister that the issue of parliamentary scrutiny is very important.

I just want to reflect on what the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, said about regulations. The Minister will no doubt pray in aid the fact that Parliament has processes for dealing with regulations. In your Lordships’ House, praying against a negative SI leads to an affirmative debate, unlike in the other place, and we debate it in full—but to what end? I have tabled a Motion today in the Chamber relating to an affirmative Motion on a completely different issue, data use in the NHS. I have no doubt that we will have a very good debate, but the Government will just plough on without having to take account of any debate that has taken place.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

No, I am saying that I gave an example of where the FCA could take action for activity beyond the regulated perimeter, but I will write to the noble Baroness on the specifics of the Blackmore Bond case as an example of the question that she asked about this interaction and limitation on where the FCA can act.

Further action was taken to avoid a repeat of cases such as Blackmore Bond and London Capital and Finance. In November 2019, the FCA banned the promotion to ordinary retail investors of high-risk speculative illiquid securities, which includes the types of bonds sold by Blackmore and LCF. The Government have also set out our intention to include non-transferable securities, including mini-bonds, within the scope of the prospectus regime. This would mean that issuers of mini-bonds would be required to offer their securities via a platform when making offers over a certain threshold, which would ensure appropriate due diligence and disclosure and be regulated by the FCA, providing stronger protection for investors. However, I know that that does not address the noble Baroness’s particular point, on which I will write.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I accept that the Minister is, essentially, responding in the narrow terms of the amendment before us, but she will be aware that our Lordships’ Select Committee looked into the whole issue of financial fraud and crime. The Minister mentioned the FCA, but the committee found that there are so many agencies involved that their collective effort is a total lack of integration and co-ordination, and that thousands of people are left completely unsupported. Less than 1% of police resources are spent on tackling a huge sector. The Government have now stopped publishing statistics in relation to crime that includes financial crime. I wonder why.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I opened my remarks by acknowledging that fraud needs a co-ordinated response from government, law enforcement and the private sector. That is at the heart of our approach, and it is why the Government established the Joint Fraud Taskforce to bring all those actors together. I attended it towards the end of last year, and it meets regularly. There are many different actors that need to take action in this space, including the regulators but also law enforcement, industry and companies—not just the financial services sector. Measures in the Online Safety Bill look at online platforms, for example.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 6th February 2023 Grand Committee

It is acknowledged that one of the greatest effects of failure to prevent offences is on culture, through the review of adequacy of procedures and by taking greater caution. Having on-the-spot regulators with those powers would be synergistic to that culture change. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have Amendments 71 and 210 in this group, which deal with financial fraud. I very much support what the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, said, and am sure that, between now and Report, there can be further discussions about the best way to embed in the Bill the tackling of financial fraud. As she said, we have two pieces of legislation going through in parallel, and we need to ensure that at the end of the day there is a concerted strategy to deal with financial fraud, which has been lamentably missing from our affairs over many years. The Bill certainly provides protection for victims of authorised push payment scans, but little else to address the growing and worrying problem of financial fraud.

We had a canter round some of these issues last Monday, when the Minister was very reassuring. She said that

“tackling fraud requires a unified and co-ordinated response from government, law enforcement and the private sector”;

that

“strong punishments … already exist under the Fraud Act”;

that

“the police and the National Crime Agency already have the powers to investigate fraud, with the FCA providing strong support”;

and that

“The Home Office is investing £400 million in tackling economic crime over the spending review period, including £100 million dedicated to fraud.”—[Official Report, 30/1/23; cols. GC 123-24.]

She mentioned the Joint Fraud Taskforce on a number of occasions and said that the Home Office will shortly publish a long-awaited new strategy—which I think was briefed out in some of yesterday’s Sunday newspapers.

That is all well and good. The problem is that one needs an act of faith to believe that the Government have finally recognised that they have to grip this in a much stronger way than has been evident over the last 12 years. The figures from the NAO are stark: in the year ending June 2022, fraud represented 41% of all crime against individuals, and there were an estimated 3.8 million incidents of actual or attempted fraud against individuals. Yet the number of fraud offences resulting in a charge or summons was paltry. In the year ending March 2022, 4,816 fraud cases resulted in a charge or summons. Less than 1% of police personnel were involved in conducting fraud investigations in the year ending March 2020. The public know that it is just hopeless going to the police; the default position is that they have no interest and want to give no help whatever, apart from encouraging you to go to Action Fraud—which your Lordships’ Select Committee on fighting fraud renamed “Report Fraud”, because it is a completely useless organisation.

I am particularly concerned about the financial abuse of older people, and noble Lords will see that my second amendment in this group is tailored towards that. It struck me that the previous debate on inclusivity is very much related to some points that I wish to raise this afternoon. The excellent organisation Hourglass has pointed out that the impact of financial abuse on older people can be devastating, especially as so many of them are on limited incomes such as the state pension. There are so many examples of frail older people losing large sums of money or property that they have lived in for years, or incurring large debts.

In September 2021, Hourglass and Hodge Bank collaborated on a survey to gain insights into the scale of financial and economic abuse and the impact of the digital divide. The report noted that 14.1% of respondents indicated that an older person they knew or cared for had been a victim of financial abuse in the past year. Research also pointed to a significant number of older people falling victim to economic abuse, in part due to the digital nature of banking and the digital divide.

Your Lordships’ Select Committee report, Fighting Fraud: Breaking the Chain, published only last November, was explicit about the scale of the problem generally. It said:

“A person aged 16 or over is more likely to become a victim of fraud than any other individual type of crime, including violence or burglary”,


and that

“Even though fraud is a massive problem,”

it is hardly given any priority at all. Indeed, my understanding is that fraud statistics are removed from public statements on crime rates. I wonder why that is. We know that law enforcement is hopelessly underresourced for the fight against fraud. Law enforcement agencies and digital investigation remain outside the capacity of mainstream policing, despite police forces operating in a highly digitalised society.

The Select Committee points out that

“The organisational structure for policing fraud is complex and confusing”—


it certainly is for members of the public seeking to report fraud—and that

“The criminal justice system has also failed to keep pace with the threat, resulting in a significant decrease in the prosecution of fraudsters over the last decade.”


The Select Committee warns that

“The telecoms sector has no … incentive to prevent fraud and has allowed blame to be placed elsewhere for too long.”


Similarly, the tech sector does not do anything like enough to

“slam the brakes on fraudsters using online advertising and social media platforms to reel in consumers”

and must

“do more to verify the identity of those using online dating platforms before they commit romance fraud.”

The Select Committee makes the point that all these industries, which are doing very well and enable fraud to take place, do not fear any significant financial, legal and reputational risks for failing to prevent fraud.

When fraudulent payments slip through the net, it should not be the sole responsibility of the financial services sector—in particular, the victim’s bank—to pick up the bill, although I believe that banks need to do much more than they do at present. All stakeholders in the fraud chain, including the payee’s bank, must know that they have a duty to prevent fraud and to address their failings and the victim’s losses once it has occurred. Despite the Minister’s confidence, the Government have shown very little enthusiasm. It has taken so long to even produce a strategy, that one really doubts the commitment to taking this forward.

My first amendment would add to the list of regulatory principles to be applied to the FCA and PRA

“the need to promote the detection, prevention and investigation of fraud in relation to the provision or use of financial services.”

In a sense, this can be seen in parallel to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. My Amendment 210 complements and adds to my noble friend’s amendment by emphasising the strategy he proposes, which I very much support, but there are some special arrangements in relation to older people.

I am sure that we will want to come back to this on Report. I am sure that noble Lords with an interest in this can come together with a unified amendment—I almost said composited amendment, but I hesitate to use those wonderful words in your Lordships’ Committee. We have to persuade the Government that, once and for all, we take fraud seriously. We need to kick a lot of the regulatory bodies, including the police, into taking this seriously.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 209. This Committee is unusual, in that the level of consensus seems enormous. A lot of the differences are around how to achieve where we want to go, but the coming together should worry the Government.

I will say a word or two about fraud. My noble friend has set out the fraud world. The two features, certainly of personal fraud, which are supposed to solve the problem are compensation, and investigation and prosecution. I am not against the idea of compensation being clearer and more open, but this has the potential for moral hazard. I will say no more than that. The problem with the compensation solution is that it takes the incentive away from proper investigation into criminality and prosecution. That is a bad thing.

There is so much fraud that there is an industry, and that industry breeds its own criminality—I fear that somewhere in the Bahamas they are setting up a university course on it. That spreads the atmosphere or culture more widely. We know that London has a horrible reputation for financial criminality in general—for example, money laundering. This is bad. We do not want big chunks of our society, particularly bright, competent people, involved in criminality. From every point of view, we must up the effectiveness of prosecution—treating the fraudsters as criminals and, where appropriate, locking them up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I will first cover Amendments 67, 71, 73 and 214 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. The question of the FCA’s powers on fraud has been raised before in this Committee, as noted. Before I address the detail of the amendments, it may be helpful if I set out for the Committee the FCA’s role under FSMA in relation to fraud. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked me specifically about this last Monday. I will write, but I thought it might also be useful to set it out in the context of these amendments.

Although FSMA does not provide the FCA with an express power to prosecute fraud, it is able to prosecute fraud if it furthers its statutory objectives. If fraud is committed by an authorised firm in the course of a regulated activity, or if it carries out a regulated activity without the correct authorisations, the FCA will be able to take action against the firm on the basis of a breach of the FCA’s rules or other FSMA requirements. If a senior manager within the firm is responsible for the fraud or has culpably failed to prevent one occurring within the area of their responsibility, the FCA can take action against that firm and senior manager.

Where a firm is authorised for one activity, but is also carrying out an unregulated activity, FCA powers in relation to the unregulated activity will depend on the specific details of the case. In the case of a serious fraud, the FCA is able to take action, including on the basis that the firm or the senior manager is not fit and proper. If a firm provides regulated products or services without being authorised, unless exempt, it may be carrying on unauthorised business in contravention of the “general prohibition” in Section 19 of FSMA.

The FCA does not have powers to investigate a firm that is unauthorised and not carrying out any regulated activities unless, for example, that unauthorised person is carrying out market abuse—where the FCA has a specific role. In these circumstances, where problems fall outside the FCA’s statutory remit, the FCA assists other agencies and regulators wherever it can. That is important context for the noble Baroness’s amendments.

As I said last week, the Government take the issue of fraud very seriously. I repeat the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that the prevention of fraud is a cross-cutting policy that requires a unified and co-ordinated response from many stakeholders. However, I acknowledge that the financial regulators, including the FCA, play a critical role in that, but many levers for change also sit elsewhere.

The Government’s view is that the FCA’s broad existing remit in relation to reducing and preventing financial crime, including fraud, allows it to take proactive steps to tackle fraud and wider financial crime, while driving a whole-system approach with relevant stakeholders. The FCA is an active and named agency in the national economic crime plan and the soon-to-be-published fraud strategy. Most crucially, the FCA and the PRA require regulated financial services firms to maintain effective systems and controls to prevent their being used to further financial crime, including fraud. In the first half of 2022, UK banks blocked over £580 million being stolen from customers. In its 2022-23 business plan, the FCA announced that it was developing its approach to supervision to include further oversight of firms’ anti-fraud systems and controls.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about the number of vacancies in the FCA for those working on fraud. I will write to the Committee to provide that detail. Under the FCA’s existing remit, it is able to have a leading role in this important issue. It does not require further powers to pursue fraud, but I will come on to address other points raised in the Committee about what more must be done overall about fraud.

In respect of Amendment 214, as noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, the Government are currently assessing options presented by the Law Commission for strengthening the law on corporate criminal liability, including for fraud. This includes committing to address the need for a new offence of failure to prevent fraud through the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill. I note the differences highlighted by the noble Baroness, but the Government believe that that Bill is the right approach and vehicle for dealing with the failure to prevent offence.

Amendments 209, 210 and 211, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and Lord Davies of Brixton, respectively, relate to a national financial fraud strategy. As I have said, the Home Office will shortly publish a new strategy that will set out the Government’s plan on fraud, including fraud prevention, consumer protection and criminal prosecution. I am afraid that I did not read the Sunday papers as closely as other noble Lords, but I hear, understand and note the great interest in the strategy from this Committee and a desire to see it published as soon as possible. I reassure noble Lords that that continues to be a key priority for the Home Office, which is working closely with the Treasury and other government departments to make sure that we get it right.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. As part of this work, are the Government looking at the costs to the various statutory agencies of pursuing fraud? The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised the example of the cost to Thames Valley Police—I think—of a prosecution, which on their budget was enormous. The fine was substantial, but there seemed to be no way of compensating the police for those costs. Can the Minister say whether that will be looked at within the strategy?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Funding is of course an important part of any strategy, and I have set out to noble Lords previously the increased funding that has gone to the specific issue of tackling fraud. I will turn to the specific proposal from the noble Baroness a little later, but I understand the point about not just the amount of funding but the incentives that different approaches can create.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and other noble Lords talked about the devastating personal costs that fraud can have and the societal costs that having high levels of fraud in our society can bring. I agree with noble Lords on that. The noble Lord spoke about compensation not overshadowing the need for investigation and prosecution, and I also agree with that. Those considerations are all being taken forward through the strategy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid I will not be able to address the noble Lord’s first two points, but I will happily write to him. On his third point, I referred to the fact that, as part of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, we are looking to take forward the issue of corporate criminal liability and the offence of failure to prevent fraud, which would strengthen action in the areas he talks about.

I was talking about our work with other sectors. My noble friend Lord Northbrook and the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, raised the issue of online fraud. There is an intention to bring forward a tech sector charter with industry, to include public and private actions to drive down fraud in this area. Of course, fraud has been brought into the scope of the Online Safety Bill to better protect the public from online scams through, among other measures, a new stand-alone duty requiring large internet firms to tackle fraudulent advertising, including that of financial services.

The Government also recognise the particularly devastating impact that fraud can have on the elderly and the most vulnerable people in society and on people’s mental health. They have taken various steps, including banning cold calls from personal injury firms and pension providers and supporting National Trading Standards to improve the quality of care available to vulnerable fraud victims. More broadly, the FCA’s guidance on vulnerability explores how firms can understand the needs of vulnerable customers. This includes those who are older or have mental health conditions and sets out how the sector can provide targeted services for this cohort, including in the context of fraud. Where firms fail to meet their obligations to treat customers fairly, the FCA will take further action. I hope noble Lords are assured that further work is being taken forward on data sharing and on supporting older people and those with mental health conditions who are victims of financial fraud.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, mentioned measures in the Online Safety Bill, as have I. I have also mentioned the measures in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill and revisions to the Data Protection Act. I am cognisant of the need to ensure that this work is well co-ordinated and that the progress we are making in other Bills is co-ordinated with the work we are doing on this issue more generally.

I turn finally to Amendment 217. Currently, the proceeds of such fines imposed by the courts must, by law, be paid—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but her comments have prompted a thought. Many of us are trying to cover, albeit not always successfully, three or four different Bills that are running through your Lordships’ House with slightly similar amendments around this issue of financial fraud. I do not know whether it would be possible for the Ministers dealing with all these Bills to come together at some point for a more general discussion; it might make this easier for us all. The Minister will know that these debates are going to be repeated on a number of occasions.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will absolutely take away the noble Lord’s suggestion. I cannot speak for others but I would be happy to engage further on this before Report, drawing on the other strands of government work; I agree with the noble Lord that it might be useful to have other Ministers there too. I recognise that the other Bills are not as far along as this one is, so we will not be able to pre-empt some of that work, but I think we can co-ordinate it for noble Lords if that would be helpful.

Finally, I was dealing with Amendment 217 and noting that, by law, income from fines imposed by the courts needs to be paid into the consolidated fund. That income is not ring-fenced but is used towards general government expenditure on public services. The Government agree that it is important for bodies responsible for investigating and prosecuting fraud to be appropriately resourced to discharge their responsibility. The NCA’s budget is made up of a number of different funding streams. That budget has increased every year since 2019-20 and, as part of the 2021 spending review, it was allocated a settlement of more than £810 million. This represents an uplift of approximately 14%, or £100 million, compared with the previous spending review. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked me a few more specific questions beneath those headline figures; perhaps I can write to her and the Committee with that information.

The FCA and the PRA are operationally independent regulators funded by a levy on the firms they regulate. I would like to reassure the noble Baroness that the regulators already have the power to ensure that they are resourced appropriately, without the need to divert funds away from general government expenditure. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I recognise the important principle behind this amendment—that consideration should be given to how the proceeds of fines can support the costs of enforcement activity.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 160, the principal amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, to show that there is support for him all round the Committee and to show the Government, too, that at some point the House of Lords is going to make its views known when it comes to voting on the Bill. It would be good to see the Government acknowledge that they are going to have to do something to strengthen the accountability of these arrangements.

My principal concern is about the integrity of Parliament and the more general issue of the accountability of so many of the regulators, public bodies and quangos that we have established, because I see them as an extension of the Executive, in many ways. They do functions which traditionally the Executive may themselves have done. We are talking about financial markets but a recent example of extraordinary behaviour is that of the Arts Council, in its perverse decision to try to destroy opera in this country by the abolition of English National Opera and the withdrawal of a huge grant from Welsh National Opera for touring, when the Arts Council’s mission is ostensibly that it is supposed to be encouraging the touring of such companies.

The Arts Council apparently did that because the then Culture Secretary, Nadine Dorries, said that she wanted more money to go out into the regions for levelling up. That was translated into the destruction of a centre of excellence which had been very committed to inclusivity. At that point, she denied that she had ever wanted ENO to do that, but the Arts Council remains unaccountable to Parliament for that action and Ministers say, “It is nothing to do with us”. We are left in a quagmire as to how to know, in the end, who was accountable for what seems, on the face of it, a crass decision.

My main experience is not in financial services but in the health service, which is awash with regulators, public bodies and quangos. I will name just three: NICE, NHS England and the Care Quality Commission. They have huge influence and power over the affairs of the National Health Service but it is very difficult to say that they are accountable to Parliament at all. If we seek to ask questions about their performance in questions or debates, or meetings with Ministers, we will be told, “That’s nothing to do with Ministers”.

When it comes to financial services, I am therefore at one with the noble Lord, Lord Bridges. It is surely in the interests of the United Kingdom, in any case, that our regulatory arrangements be seen to be of the first order. I agree with him when he talked about the balance. We want the regulators to be seen to be independent, and robustly so, because that adds to their credibility. We clearly want to avoid politicisation, because that would undermine the esteem in which they would be held nationally and internationally. However, we want them to be subject to not just proper scrutiny but accountability. So far, we have heard nothing from the Government to suggest that they understand that, or why the current arrangements will not be sufficient.

As the noble Lord said, this proposal will not duplicate the Treasury Select Committee. His point about the OBR was important, because the OBR has fulfilled an important function, but I do not think anyone has suggested that it has undermined the working of Parliament or any of its Select Committees; indeed, it has enhanced what they can do. I think he was making that point when he said that his amendments will not undermine the regulators’ independence. In many ways, I think they would enhance them. This is not going to cost much money compared to the benefit it would bring and, as he also said, it will not duplicate the work of the FCA and PRA.

There is an overwhelming case for supporting this measure, alongside the previous debate about the need for a much strengthened Select Committee to carry out work inside Parliament, as the noble Lord suggested. I very much hope that the Government will listen to what he has said.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment, which in my judgment is absolutely vital. On 8 February, I listened to the chairman of the City of London Corporation’s policy and resources committee; I will quote a couple of points that he made on that evening. He said:

“Faced with increasing global competition”


the UK needs

“a long-term sense of direction, a programme for government, regulators, and industry to act and sustain our global powerhouse status. As a country we need a renewed focus, to adjust our compass, to be the destination that incentivises investment, thrives with talent, and commands the competition. And we need ambition and focus to achieve these goals.”

He finished by saying that we need “the courage to change” in three areas. I will quote two, which are relevant to this amendment:

“Firstly, we need to reduce frictions. That means strengthening UK policy and regulation with an effective and coherent sustainable finance framework. Secondly, we need to nurture innovation. More creativity in the market will inspire better products, which will help attract capital, firms, and customers.”


The City wants confidence in scrutiny and the supervision of the regulator. I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will take note of the feelings of the City. I am sure that it would be more than happy to communicate directly with my noble friend and put some flesh on the summary that I have given.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe that is sometimes subject to debate. What I was saying to noble Lords is that it raises questions in this area that we need to consider. If I look back to the creation of the OBR, it was in the Conservative manifesto at the 2010 election; indeed, it was set up in shadow form in 2009. It was first established not in statute and operated without statute after 2010. The provisions for its establishment in statute were then brought forward in a Bill, where there was sufficient time to consider those questions.

I am not saying definitively one way or another, but it raises questions that we would need to consider more carefully about who this body is accountable to and the interactions with parliamentary accountability that we have discussed today; the need for clarity on accountability, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt; and, for example, the remarks by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on the role that the body could have in filling the space that allows industry to make private submissions to the new body, rather than public submissions as happened through Select Committees, and how that marries with the provisions in the amendments on the need for this body to operate transparently.

These are questions that are raised in considering how such a body would operate in this landscape. There is the potential that it could duplicate or dilute the roles within the regulatory framework of government and Parliament to scrutinise and hold the regulators to account.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

There is a problem in the approach that the Minister is taking. She is suggesting that the body proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, will add to the accountability structure. I have added my name to the amendment and, as I see it, the body is there to support those who wish to hold the two regulators to account. It is not there to add to the architecture of accountability but to aid Parliament and others to hold them properly to account. There is a distinction.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Whether it is there to aid others in the accountability structure or is an accountability body itself is a further question, but its proposed role raises questions about, for example, how transparently it operates, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, touched on, and other such considerations. I merely said to my noble friend who raised this point that the establishment of the OBR happened in a Bill of its own after a manifesto commitment, and that it had been up and running for some time before it was put into statute. It is not unreasonable to say that considerations need to be made when we think about this issue.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the general thrust of the amendments on access to cash and the availability of real banks, if I can put it that way. I take the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, that the future is digital and that our effort should be to incentivise the financial sector to make it easier for those people who, at the moment, lack the confidence to use digital methods. I accept that she is right, up to a point; we probably are moving to a cashless society. So far, however, the financial sector has shown itself to be rather backward in coming forward with innovative solutions for people who lack confidence.

Secondly, there is enough evidence around to suggest that, at the moment, enough people—millions of people—use cash. They often use cash as a way of budgeting at a very difficult time. I would be loath for us to take action that disenables them from doing so. One of the concerns about access to cash is not just that the number of machines is being reduced but that the amount of free access to cash is, I understand, also reducing. Some of this is to do with the way that fees are charged by the LINK facility. I will not put the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, on the spot, but there are issues around the way in which that policy has developed over the past few years, as it seems to be putting pressure on some of the cash providers. This, again, needs to be looked at.

I was very struck by an article in the Guardian today about a 91 year-old who

“discovered that her pension and benefits payments had been stopped and her direct debits cancelled after a Barclays agent recorded that she had died and closed her account.”

I realise that hard cases cause bad law but her experience brought home to me many of the problems that are being faced. She

“informed Barclays that her husband had died. She asked for his name to be removed from their joint account and replaced with that of her daughter … who has third-party access to her account. Instead, she was marked as deceased and the account was closed. Her pension and benefit payments were returned to the Department for Work and Pensions and her direct debits were stopped. She discovered the mistake when she returned from a family Christmas to find her phone line and energy supply had been cut off and a sheaf of letters from companies and the council demanding payment.”

The article continues, as she then

“made two trips to her nearest Barclays branch and was told on both occasions by staff that she was recorded as dead. The bank refused to discuss the case with her daughter because her third-party authority had been revoked when the account was closed.”

This recalls the experience of my wife and I, who had power of attorney for our parents. Once they have died, you lose that power of attorney; it becomes very difficult to have any interaction with the bank at all, and the bank itself is often unsympathetic when you try to discuss this.

In Mrs Roper’s case, the account was eventually reopened and the payments restored after intervention by the Guardian. However, as the article states:

“Roper’s ordeal highlights the obstacles facing vulnerable customers who do not have access to online banking. A Barclays customer for 65 years, she is unable to cope with the automated menus on the customer service phone line and, since her local branch closed, she is forced to take two buses to the next town to withdraw money and manage her account. The only available appointment to request the account change was at a branch 23 miles away where staff did not know her. She brought the required documents, but the bank refused to proceed with the requested name change because she could not recall her little-used pin number. She was told her to make another appointment when she had remembered her pin.”


I am afraid that this is all too common. When we talk about encouraging people to use online facilities, I recall my mother in her last year or so. She was very frail. Even using phones with big numbers, not smartphones, became very difficult. With banks and other financial services, we know who the policy people are; they are often the same young people who work in government developing policy. I accept that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is right about where we are going as technology moves on. However, we are talking about forgotten millions of people here. So far, because I do not see the financial sector responding, we need some safeguards in the Bill. Before Report, I hope that we can coalesce around one amendment that will really enable us to ensure that there are strong responsibilities on the regulator to encourage best practice here.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to speak to my Amendments 185 and 188 in particular, as well as on the broader points made by other amendments in relation to access to cash and basic banking services. I declare an interest as London’s Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience and the chair of the London Resilience Forum, not least because the London City Resilience Strategy highlights the risk of moving to a cashless society.

First, Amendment 188 concerns the importance of cash to national resilience. It is of critical importance that the Government have due regard to what might happen in some crisis situations were we to become an entirely, or almost entirely, cashless society. Comment has been made on the march towards a cashless society in Scandinavian countries, including by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, but we should also note that these countries have not only greater equality and lower financial exclusion than the UK but, in formal government guidance to their populations on preparedness, they recommend that their citizens have some cash for use in an emergency.

The Norwegian Government’s English language public information leaflet on personal preparedness says:

“Most of us are completely dependent on electricity in our everyday lives: for heating, light, cooking, hot water and running electrical appliances and devices. Storms, natural disasters, sabotage, technical problems, terrorism or acts of war can result in many people’s electricity or water supply being cut off.”


The digital world in which we live, which is reliant on electricity, creates huge risks as well as opportunities. The world is in many ways less resilient to shock than it was previously as a result. You only have to look to the recent cyber incident that Royal Mail experienced, with weeks of not being able to send international post, to understand the real risks of a world in which individuals, companies, sectors and countries become overly reliant on digital finance and digital infrastructure.

On a national basis, everything from a major power outage to a rota power outage—your Lordships will know that local resilience forums were asked to plan for one this winter so this is not a hypothetical situation—whether this is through shortages, hostile cyberattacks or a major storm, could restrict the ability of individuals, businesses and government to function. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, that access to cash should be viewed as part of the national critical infrastructure.

The scenarios in which an overreliance on digital banking, with an absence of cash as a back-up, becomes an additional complication or risk in an emergency situation are not far-fetched. This is a genuine threat to our country’s resilience and to our national security in an unstable world. I therefore ask Ministers to consider including this amendment and would suggest that, as a minimum, the ongoing work that the Government are undertaking on the national risk register considers what additional risks might emerge in relation to emergency situations in which cash was no longer available.

There is limited reference to this issue online. In my attempt to get more extensive examples or comments to back up my points, I did not find much of note to cite relating to the UK. This actually made me more concerned, not less. The reality is that it is not far-fetched to have a scenario in which we could lose access to digital finance or payments systems for a number of days—or weeks—on a national, regional or sub-regional basis. The reason cash has lasted so long is that it is, in essence, resilient. That is not the only reason for keeping cash but we need, as a country, to avoid sleepwalking into losing the resilience that it can provide. If you spoke to people working on resilience in Sweden, for example, I think they would also note that it presents additional problems. This is not about preserving history, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, suggests, but about preserving our resilience.

Amendment 185 in my name, which is on the regional experience of cash provision, is intended to highlight the need for us to understand and plan, through the FCA, for cash provision—not just on average, or on the whole, but in relation to whether provision has a regional and potentially sub-regional imbalance. This would enable any regional disproportionality that exists to be addressed. I am particularly concerned that we have large areas, both rural and within cities, that no longer have banks. I know, for example, that the entire constituency of Bradford South no longer has a bank. Like others, I am particularly concerned about the risks of there being a lack of cash and basic banking services for the most vulnerable in society. Others have already spoken on this point and given detailed statistics illustrating it, so I will not dwell on it.

In conclusion, I commend those noble Lords who have tabled specific amendments covering free access to cash and access to basic banking services. It is not a coincidence that Amendment 182 has cross-party sponsors and I commend my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Altmann, for their work on it. I also commend those in the other place, particularly the honourable Member for Mitcham and Morden, who have pushed for this matter to be addressed. Quite simply, free access to cash and basic banking services must be guaranteed. At the heart of British personal banking lies free access to your own money. It is outrageous that if you are poor, you are more likely to have to rely on charged-for cash machines. This legislation provides an opportunity to address the issue, as well as ensuring that we safeguard our country’s resilience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, surely we have a situation in which the market is failing. In essence, the banks are not interested because they take the same view as that of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes: that this part of the market is dying. They do not want to be involved because they want to be in a dynamic, new market. Faced with that and the 7 million people who use cash each year—in the current cost of living crisis that many people face, cash is used as a budgetary tool—what can we do if the market is clearly not providing? From our point of view, legislation is the only lever we have because none of the regulators seems that interested. Government departments are not; they are engaged in removing cash as much as possible. What is the alternative?

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I do not have an answer—I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord—but this Bill is not the place for that. Its aims and purposes are to make the UK sector more nimble and competitive internationally so that it can move ahead in a post-Brexit world and we can all benefit from a successful financial sector. Putting caveats, restrictions and obligations on a sector can add costs to customers, consumers and all who use these services. However, I think that that is a good aim and is good to do. We should have a special committee to see how we can encourage use, short of using the law as a big stick on one sector of providers. There are many ways that have opened up in the market that are already providing use, which I can discuss later.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, there are a number of ways to tackle the issues that the noble Lord referred to. There are various statistics around payment methods used by consumers in the UK; I quoted some at the start of my speech. The Government have not mandated service providers to accept certain forms of payment; that is not the approach we intend to take to ensure that people continue to have access to cash or money. I have said that, in supporting businesses’ access to deposit services, that will support people’s ability to use their cash as a form of payment.

The noble Lord also raised the question of a digital form of money. That is a question that the Government have looked at very carefully. We launched what I think was a joint consultation between the Government and the regulators, looking in more detail at the question of a central government digital currency and how to take forward that work, as well as considering questions such as those from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about privacy issues in a world of having a digital form of money versus having cash as a form of money.

I understand the importance of having a picture and the data that allows us to understand what is going on. I do not think that the data is necessarily the gap here; it is about how you provide for the ongoing use of cash in a society where rapid changes are being made. Our approach to that has been through legislating in this Bill on access to cash withdrawal and deposit facilities.

I was just talking about the importance of the accessibility of payment interfaces, including ATMs and point-of-sale terminals. I am pleased that UK Finance and the RNIB have developed accessibility guidelines for touch screen chip and PIN devices, as well as an approved list of accessible card terminals. The Government’s disability and access ambassador for banking, Kathryn Townsend, also encourages a consistent consumer experience and engagement with deaf advocacy groups.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not want to delay the Committee or the Minister but, on ATMs, I referred rather incoherently to the interchange fee paid by LINK. Will the Minister take back the issue that this is having a big impact on the viability of providing free cash by the companies that do so? This partly seems to be down to the ownership of LINK and the influence of banks in relation to it, but does she accept that there can be very profound effects when you lose free access to cash and have to pay for it? I was told this morning at a meeting with NoteMachine —one of the companies that provide cash—that six out of 10 withdrawals are for £10 because people are using it to budget. The problem is, if you no longer have access to free cash, you then have to pay £1.50 for it. That is a huge rate. These are some of the practical issues that I hope the Minister will be prepared to take away between now and Report.

Even accepting that the Minister may not be prepared to accept any of these amendments, it seems that at the moment we do not, despite FCA guidance, have a guarantee that the financial sector as a whole is going to change the way it operates. This is the problem that we face. If anything, its policies are driving cash out without recognising the impact on some very vulnerable people.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

On interchange fees, decisions regarding the operation and funding arrangements for an ATM network are taken by the parties involved. The noble Lord will know that LINK has commitments to protect the broad geographic spread of free-to-use ATMs and is held to account against those obligations and commitments by the Payment Systems Regulator. It has specifically committed to protect free-to-use ATMs more than one kilometre away from the next nearest free ATM or Post Office and free access to cash on high streets, and it supports free-to-use ATMs in deprived areas through its financial inclusion programme.

I recognise the point that the noble Lord has made. Coming back to the provision in the Bill, while I understand that different amendments have been tabled to look at how it could be enhanced or altered, it is important to acknowledge that legislating to protect access to cash is the Government recognising the point that the Committee made and taking action to address it. We want to have flexibility in how that is delivered, but we are providing for it in primary legislation and I hope that principle is welcomed, even though there are different opinions about how it could best be delivered.

Drawing towards the end of my remarks, I was going to note specifically on accessibility that that question was considered by the most recent Financial Inclusion Policy Forum. As I was saying to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, while the Government do not support these amendments, I hope that noble Lords recognise the action that is being taken through the Bill and elsewhere, because the Government take these issues seriously. It is right to consider the outcome that we are all trying to deliver in a changing world: accessible financial services. That can mean a range of things, such as for people on low incomes being able to budget their money or for accessibility when it comes to disability, age or other factors. The way we have tried to approach access to cash in the Bill is by looking at delivering those outcomes in a flexible way, so I hope that at the moment the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, is able to withdraw her amendment and that other noble Lords do not press their amendments.