South Western Railway

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathcarron]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the performance of South Western Railway since nationalisation, and whether they have taken account of its performance in their plans to nationalise other railways.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, South Western’s performance before and after public ownership has remained below the standards passengers deserve. We inherited from both the previous Government’s management and the previous owners a very serious driver shortage, and 84 out of 90 new trains sitting in sidings, unused but being paid for from the public purse, for several years. Since May, the number of new trains in service has quadrupled and many more drivers are being recruited. It will take time to fix the poor management of the past, but the new managing director and his team will do just that.

[Lord Strathcarron (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Minister for his reply, and I agree that this has been a disaster for years. However, passenger groups report that since nationalisation, South Western has suffered a 50% increase in cancellations—it is even worse on Monday mornings and Friday afternoons—and delay minutes per hundred miles have risen by 29%. Rakes have often been halved, leaving passengers standing for whole journeys. Meanwhile, if we can understand them, we see that fares have risen faster than inflation. Would the Minister join me on a weekday morning and pay £49 to stand for one hour in a train from Winchester to Waterloo, and see for himself the results of nationalisation before it starts to affect us all?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I do not need to join the noble Lord on his service, because I am on my own, from Richmond to Vauxhall. It is true that there are some short forms—the result of both the driver shortage and the failure to put the new trains into service. Those are linked, because it is clear that the previous management did not choose to put the trains into service because they would have had to train the drivers. There are 780 drivers to be trained on those trains, and getting them into service means withdrawing 20, 30 or 40 of them from what they do normally. Meanwhile, the trains that are used are falling to pieces. Those are the old red ones, as anybody who has travelled on them will know, and they are best used in their last journey to the scrapyard in Newport, South Wales. They will be gone by December. It takes time to fix things. They were not being fixed under the previous regime, and they are now.

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, I acknowledge that there have been serious infrastructure issues, some natural and some legacy, but that does not take away from the poor service provided on the longer-distance services. When will passengers on South Western services be able to buy a cup of tea on board, and to reserve seats for their journeys, which is what many would consider to be a basic standard?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is referring to the London to Exeter service, which has not been very good in recent months, although the timetable will be reinstated from 29 November. That is because there was a serious problem with soil moisture deficit, as we have had the driest spring since 1836—and that was not due to public ownership. She also refers to the refreshment trolleys. She may know that I have asked the managing director to see what he can do to put back the refreshment trolleys, which were withdrawn some time under previous Governments—after Covid, I think.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is a failure not of nationalisation but of privatisation, and that we have had 13 years of wrecking the train service, like everything else? Is it not the case that we are clearing up the mess left by the previous Administration?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend, and he is right.

[Lord Grayling (Con)]

My Lords, a few months ago I asked the Minister about the transition payments that were previously paid when a franchise ended and a new operator came in. He was not at that point able to answer the question about SWR, so I ask him again now, as a few months have passed: have the Government paid any money to FirstGroup as a result of the transition from private to public, and have any further payments been made since the time of the transition?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The Government are very reluctant to pay any money to the previous owners, bearing in mind the condition in which the service was left. That discussion is still carrying on, but I am not aware of any money so far being paid and I would not be keen to pay any in the future.

[Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Strathcarron has opened up this debate about privatisation. I have been the first to admit that previous privatisation was on a strange footing, but I notice that on my Southeastern service on the north Kent line, we are getting that back-to-nationalisation Gallic shrug from many of the staff. On the last 20 sectors that I have used over the past three weeks, I think 15 have been delayed. I am using the Delay Repay service, which comes straight out of His Majesty’s Treasury. Whatever one thinks the turnover and the profits of these services are, they are being massively reduced because of the delays. This applies not just to services on the railway; I am also seeing stations under damage and pressure. For instance, the lift has been out of operation for two weeks at Rochester station, which causes me some inconvenience.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

There was not a question in there but, now that Southeastern is run by a managing director who is responsible for both the operations and the infrastructure, I will get Steve White to talk to the noble Lord, and he can make his complaints in person on Rochester station.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a user of South Western, but on the Portsmouth line. I suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron, buys a senior railcard. Is not one of the problems with the Government’s policy that they now get blamed for all the problems of the railway companies that they so-called own? The service on my train has been pretty good, except for one incident which I blame the Minister for. Is he confident that South Western will continue to get the investment it needs now that it is under government control?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

I am confident of that. Indeed, if the noble Lord is a regular user of the Portsmouth line, he will know that the signalling has been replaced in the last three weeks, which demonstrates significant investment in what was an unreliable system. The purpose of the forthcoming Railways Bill is to create Great British Railways so that, for the first time in over 30 years, the railway is run as a holistic whole by people who understand how to run a railway for the benefit of passengers and freight. That is better than the system that I have inherited and have had to work with for many years.

[Lord Spellar (Lab)]

My Lords, have not a lot of the problems with the conditions of the rolling stock arisen from the ludicrous decision to put out the work to the leasing companies, for which it was a massive licence to print money? Certainly, neither passengers nor the Treasury benefited from that.

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

Although it might be possible to agree with my noble friend, on this occasion that is not correct. The old South Western trains have been at the end of their lives for some five years. Indeed, I found when I arrived there an extraordinary plan to spend £25 million trying to resuscitate rusty trains to keep them in service because the new ones have been in the sidings for five years. That is a fault not of the rolling stock companies but of management and the previous Government.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, under the system of franchising, should a franchise fail, the Government would have the opportunity to put in an operator of last resort. Who is the operator of last resort now?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Lord is familiar with that system; indeed, in his Government’s time, four franchises were already in public ownership as a consequence of that. By and large, they are doing better now than they were under the previous regime. You do not need an operator of last resort if you have management committed to a long-term future of the railway which satisfies passengers and freight.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Strathcarron is a passenger who has a strong voice because he sits in your Lordships’ House. Before the election, the Labour Party promised in its manifesto and its document about rail that it will create a “strong passenger voice” for all passengers. However, now that we can see the Railways Bill, we see that it is a wimpish creature—a revamped TravelWatch—which has no power at all to compel Great British Rail. Would not the Minister just like to admit now that in his vision of a single directing mind for the railways in this country there really is no room for the passenger except as supplicant, never as customer?

[Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill (Lab)]

The noble Lord should read the draft Bill more carefully. If he does, he will find that the rather antiseptically named passengers’ council—it will have a better name than that in practice—will have the right to ask for regulatory action to be taken against Great British Railways if it fails to deal with subjects that the passengers’ council has a view about. I am very happy to meet the noble Lord afterwards and point him to the specific wording of the clauses; no doubt we will debate them in due course.