Lord Gardiner of Kimble
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Golding (Lab)
My Lords, briefly, I share an office with my noble friend Lord Lipsey. We go to gambling meets together—horseracing and dog meetings—and share a great interest in it. I have never heard him say what he said today. I agree with every word that he said, and I wish to support him.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his amendment and the Government fully acknowledge the strength of feeling on this issue. I will therefore explain why we feel that we are unable to accept the current amendment, clarify the state aid position and explain what we are doing to address the issue of levy reform.
The problem with the amendment is that it is too narrow in scope to offer the flexibility we would need to reform the existing system. Much has been said about the current levy regime no longer reflecting modern betting and racing. We want to consider reform across the whole system and the amendment will not enable or facilitate this wider approach. If we accepted this clause and notified the European Commission of our intentions, it could come back, as it did in the case of the French levy, requiring us to make changes to the levy system which could be made only through primary legislation. For that reason, among others, the clause is too narrow in scope to cater for such an eventuality.
A number of your Lordships—the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, and my noble friend Lord Cavendish in particular—referred to the state aid position. I hope it will help your Lordships to address some of the issues raised in the European Commission decision about the French levy. The Commission ruled that France’s levy on online horserace betting operators was a state aid compatible with the state aid rules. That confirms the Government’s position that the UK levy also is a state aid. Any substantive alteration to an existing state aid requires approval by the European Commission. The French decision does not mean that the UK would not have to seek separate approval for a substantive change to the existing system. Indeed, the French had to make changes to the proposal they originally notified to the Commission in order to gain its approval. As I have said before, the amendment does not provide any room for manoeuvre should the Commission seek changes to the levy system to maintain state aid compliance.
I move on to levy reform. I am particularly mindful of what the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, said about many of the other activities of the levy board. Training is one that I know something about. The recent figures published by the Horserace Betting Levy Board indicate that levy yields, including voluntary contributions from bookmakers, will rise in the next two years from £74.4 million in 2012-13 to an estimated £75.6 million in 2013-14 and an estimated £80.2 million in 2014-15. That is clearly good news—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, described it as encouraging—but it does not mean that the Government are kicking levy reform into the long grass. The Government have said that they would like to see the levy replaced by a more commercial arrangement between racing and betting, but a workable replacement that is fair, sustainable, enforceable and legally sound has yet to emerge. We all wish to see a vibrant racing industry. I am very much aware of just how important that industry is in many parts of the country.
Some points were made by my noble friends Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Cavendish about why the Government do not take a broader power to reform the levy. The Government are rightly cautious before adopting broad reserve powers, but are thinking carefully about how such a power could appropriately be used to achieve levy reform.
I understand your Lordships’ desire to make progress. The Government want to make progress too and are giving levy reform current and active consideration. As an immediate next step, the department is initiating discussions about the state aid implications of reform with the European Commission this month. For the reasons I have outlined and in the circumstances, I very much hope that the noble Viscount will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Cavendish of Furness
Am I to understand that there is a possibility that a reserve power provision could be added at a later stage of the Bill?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I do not think I can confirm that. The Government are in thinking mode on that. For reasons I have described, a lot of work is going on more generally on the levy. I am really saying to your Lordships that the Government are cautious about adopting broad reserve powers. Many of your Lordships would be concerned about the Government reserving those powers, and we are cautious about doing so for those reasons—but we are thinking about it. I am sorry that I cannot be more exacting than that.
Viscount Falkland
My Lords, the Minister has responded in a very agreeable way, and I understand exactly what he is saying. Of course the amendment is probing. The Bill is primarily about taxation but gives us a good opportunity to discuss a number of matters that I imagine will have roughly the same kind of reaction from the Minister when he comes to them. So we are grateful for this assurance that the Government are thinking about what we have said, and we look forward to the future.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for his amendment. The argument has been made that if remote gambling can be played on portable devices in bedrooms and on trains, why can it not in the well regulated environment of casinos? Such devices can already be played in casinos and can indeed be, and already are, offered by casinos to customers, but within the limits of machine stakes and prize regulations. The debate is therefore about the ability of casinos to promote and encourage the use of their own devices outside of those controls.
Where casinos are promoting and encouraging gambling services to be undertaken on their own premises, the Government remain of the opinion that it is right to consider potential flexibility within the structure of existing machine stakes and prize regulations. The amendment would remove those controls, leaving those devices outside the existing stake and prize framework. That would be a potentially considerable relaxation of machine gaming policy if it were not addressed most carefully.
Parliament only last month approved an increase to the existing stake and prize limits for casino gaming machines. Parliament has approved regulations which will more than double the maximum stake for category B1 gaming machines, which are only available in casinos, from £2 to £5, and the maximum prize from £4,000 to £10,000 on a single machine. Casinos will also be able to offer a linked progressive jackpot of up to £20,000. These changes were predicated on commitments the casino industry has made in relation to player protections. The Government would like to assess the effectiveness of these player protection measures, and consider the issues of gaming machines and remote gambling provisions in casinos more generally, before considering any further changes. I can confirm that any legislative changes could be via secondary legislation.
In addition, if the principle is accepted through the amendment that remote devices should be outside of gaming machine regulations when offered in a licensed premises, it could—and, we predict, would—be argued by each and every sector, including betting shops, bingo halls and arcades, that they should offer similar unlimited stake and prize facilities in their own locations.
The second part of the amendment provides controls on the number of such devices, but there are no proposed controls on how they might develop. There is nothing to prevent casinos developing devices that are defined in law as remote, but could begin to look and feel like more regular gaming machines.
That said, the department is currently undergoing a programme of engagement with the casino industry and considering the sector’s flexibility and modernisation proposals. Such discussions will include an examination of the remote gambling flexibility measures that the industry is requesting. The department is part-way through these discussions, having held three meetings already, and intends to conclude these initial discussions by the end of March. The Government are therefore not rejecting the industry’s remote gambling proposals, but we want to complete these initial discussions with the industry. The issue of gaming machines and remote gambling provision in casinos should be reviewed, but must be progressed in a considered and balanced way, and it is for those reasons—that work is already in hand—that I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his response, and the noble Lord, Lord Flight, for his valuable support. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his comments, although I think he has a slightly romantic view of casinos—perhaps we should go off together and I will introduce him to a casino or two.
The Minister took away with one hand and started giving back with the other, which I found interesting; his response seemed more negative at the beginning than at the end. The discussions which I hope are taking place are demonstrating that it is not sensible simply to address these issues within the framework of the current machines, stakes and prices structure. Therefore I take some comfort from what he said about the current discussions. The big issue is that they will not conclude until the end of March, and I suspect that this Bill will be well gone from this House by the end of March. Therefore, I urge the Minister to take reserve powers in this Bill to do what he expects to agree to, probably by the end of March—that would be a very satisfactory conclusion—otherwise I will be extremely worried that the opportunity for primary legislation will not return to this House for some years. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My noble friend Lord Lipsey has been strong in keeping us off the statistics, but whatever the figure actually is, there is no doubt about the testimony of the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, for which I thank him very much. It brought a measure of realism into our debate. There is a problem here, and I am sure that what has been said in this Room will be picked up by the Minister and we will hear how he intends to take that forward.
It is interesting that some of the territories which are currently hosting a number of the operators who offer gambling services within the UK from without our territorial borders—the so-called whitelist—have procedures and systems in place which at least permit what is being suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Browne. There are some sensible things in that. It is therefore, by deduction, a bit strange that the Bill does not refer to it at all. When the Minister comes to respond, can he tell us the reason for that? Is it a general sense of hopelessness, as expressed by the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland? Is it more a general feeling that the nanny state should not be taking on these burdens through its appointed agency, the Gambling Commission? If either of those two is correct, I do not think that it meets the challenge laid down by those who have said that this is an addiction which needs some sort of approach, and we need as a sensible and responsible society to take into account those who are calling for help and must not let them down.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his amendment.
As your Lordships have reflected, problem gambling does serious harm, not only to an individual, but also to their friends and family, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, highlighted so strongly. As I said at Second Reading, GamCare has calculated that every problem gambler costs the state £8,000 every year, and we must never forget the distress and upset this causes to wider family members. That is why the Gambling Commission’s licensing conditions require operators to make a commitment to the identification and treatment of problem gamblers, and set out how operators will contribute to this. The Gambling Commission’s licence conditions and codes of practice already include the requirement for each remote licensee to have, and to put into effect, procedures for self-exclusion, which must include a register of those excluded with appropriate records, and the removal of access from those self-excluded persons found to have gambled or to have attempted to gamble on the facilities. This recognises that self-exclusion is an important tool for those individuals who have already recognised that they have an issue with their gambling and wish to address it.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, noted at Second Reading, in principle the software exists to set up a central self-exclusion scheme, but there are wide ranges of practical and legal issues to be resolved. Those complexities include issues such as the compatibility of different operator systems for registering players; the range of self-exclusion options offered by different operators, which may vary in the length of time and range of activities covered; and how to ensure the wrong people are not prevented from gambling or “self-excluded” by third parties, not by themselves. Any comprehensive centralised system would require a trusted third party to run the central list and oversee the scheme.
The first step to resolving these complexities and achieving a system for self-exclusion is the enactment of this Bill, which will bring operators within the remit of the Gambling Commission. It will give the Gambling Commission direct access to information from operators to assess the most effective way of achieving a system for self-exclusion.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, rightly wanted to know the Government’s view. Work is under way on reviewing the effectiveness of self-exclusion as a tool for managing problem gambling. The Gambling Commission asked its expert advisory body, the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board, to look at the effectiveness of self-exclusion as a tool and how it could be improved. Self-exclusion also forms part of the Responsible Gambling Trust’s work programme, and they are due to report their findings in March. Further steps will be developed once these findings have been considered and the remote operators are brought within the regulatory oversight of the Gambling Commission. The Remote Gambling Association also convened an industry meeting in November 2013, and this will be contributing to the process. What is more—and this is crucial to the amendment—under the Gambling Act 2005 a centralised self-exclusion system can be achieved in licensing conditions and does not require further primary legislation. For that reason, although I entirely understand the force of arguments about problem gambling and our mutual desire to assist as much as possible, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Browne of Belmont
My Lords, I am grateful to those who have participated in this debate, and for the Minister’s response. I am glad that he now seems to be engaging with this issue rather more than the Minister in the other place, and that he understands that the Gambling Commission and the industry are considering addressing this problem in various ways.
However, it is the state, through legislation, that proposes that the scope for British people, and therein all problem gamblers—I will not cite any statistics at this stage—should be widened, that they should be made more aware of types of gambling with a higher prevalence of problems than gambling as a whole. It is therefore only right that the state should, as a minimum, provide problem gamblers, through the same legislation, with equal and opposite protection in the form of a credible model of self-exclusion. To simply leave this to the industry is not acceptable. I should say that I would welcome self-exclusion from restaurants—it might help to improve my figure. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for her amendment and, indeed, for raising the important issue of reporting suspicious betting patterns by spread-betting operators. It provides me with an opportunity to update your Lordships on the work that is already under way.
We all expect and seek integrity in sport. We could have no better ambassadors here than my noble friend Lord Moynihan and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on these matters; that is clearly important. What my noble friend Lord Moynihan said about education is also extremely important.
The Government are clear that all gambling operators, whether they provide spread betting or fixed-odds betting services, should be subject to obligations to report suspicious market activity of the sort which is set out in licence condition 15.1. The Government confirmed in the other place that the FCA would issue guidance to the sports spread-betting firms operating in the United Kingdom regarding how they report suspicious betting transactions under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. So far as is possible, it will be aligned to those requirements on the fixed-odds betting operators licensed by the Gambling Commission under licence condition 15.1. This is an important development that will strengthen the existing arrangements, and allow for greater consistency in the way that suspicious activity is reported. I am pleased to be able to confirm that work on this has been progressing. Officials from the FCA met the representatives of sports governing bodies and the Gambling Commission on 5 December 2013. The FCA is now in the process of drafting the guidance, and I understand that it hopes to be in a position to issue a draft to operators in early February. The department will continue to explore the provision of draft guidance with the FCA.
Concerns have been raised about whether compliance with the FCA guidance will be just voluntary. Compliance will indeed not be voluntary. Real consequences can flow from a failure to follow the guidance. Failure to comply could result in the FCA determining an operator has breached FCA rules, which would put the operator at risk of enforcement action by the FCA. In parallel to the FCA guidance, the Gambling Commission has just completed consulting on changing licence condition 15.1 to make it clearer that the Gambling Commission expects operators to report all information about suspicious betting patterns in its knowledge to the Gambling Commission and sports governing bodies, whether or not those occurred on their Gambling Commission-licensed bets. This would include information about suspicious betting patterns in its spread-betting operations. Those changes will be made as part of other changes being made to the licence code and conditions in anticipation of the new licensing requirements.
This is an important part of the picture, because the vast majority of sports spread betting is covered by the two operators that are also licensed by the Gambling Commission for fixed-odds betting. The commission has found the operators co-operative in responding to inquires about spread betting on specific events, and willing to volunteer such information. However, if contrary to the commission’s experience of working with them, its licensees breach the licence condition, it would be open to the commission to consider an appropriate sanction, which can include financial penalty, imposition of licence condition or, in extremis, licence revocation. The commission therefore already has the powers suggested in Amendment 11.
Amendment 12 raises the question of whether sports spread betting should be transferred from the FCA to the Gambling Commission. As I have said, the integrity of sport is absolutely paramount. The public has to be confident that what they are seeing in front of them is true and fair. However, the Government do not believe that at this stage there is a case for fundamental change to the existing arrangements or that non-legislative options for strengthening sports integrity have been exhausted.
Given that the FCA regulates and supervises spread-betting firms more generally, only two of the spread-betting operators relate to sport out of 26. There are advantages to ensuring that responsibility for the regulation of sports spread betting remains with the FCA, in that it allows for a consistent approach to the regulation of all spread betting—both sports and financial spread betting. The Government believe that that is the right approach and that regulation of spread betting in all its forms should remain with the FCA. Enshrining licence conditions in primary legislation also limits the flexibility to amend this position should that be necessary in future.
Obviously, the Government acknowledge the importance of ensuring that there is consistency in the way that suspicious activity is reported between sports spread-betting and fixed-odds betting operators licensed by the Gambling Commission. The Government believe that the FCA guidance and work being done by the Gambling Commission will create that consistency without the need for legislative intervention.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned a new offence of cheating at sport. My understanding is that in response to proposals from the Council of Europe for a convention on sports integrity, the Government reviewed the case for a specific match-fixing offence. They concluded that it was not needed as any non-betting match fixing, as well as betting-related match fixing, already was covered adequately by existing legislation. The “cheating at gambling” offence under the Gambling Act 2005 is deliberately wide to extend its applicability and we would not want to lose that flexibility.
Only last month, the Secretary of State brought sports and the Gambling Commission together to work to combat match fixing. We believe that this is the right forum in which to consider further action to safeguard the integrity of sport. Clearly, I understand that this is a matter of concern to your Lordships. Obviously, as with meetings we already have had, I am always interested in hearing issues that may be alive on this matter. However, on the basis of the reasons I have outlined, I ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Heyhoe Flint
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, and our finely tuned athletes the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and my noble friend Lord Moynihan, for their contributions. If the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, would like it, I will put her into the “finely tuned athletes” bracket. I feel so passionately about this amendment, which has so many implications for sport not just in this country but globally. Who better to speak on that than my noble friend Lord Moynihan with his experience throughout the world of the Olympics and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, with her level of participation? I sincerely hope that this issue is revisited and is given consideration later during the passage of the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, mentioned the Sports Betting Integrity Panel report led by Rick Parry. That was in 2010, since when there have been four years during which we still have concerns about matters relating so deeply to sport. We had the wonderful presentation of the Olympic Games in this country. However, had one betting incident occurred, all those memories and the kudos brought to this country from staging such a memorable event would have been erased. That is probably why, more than anything, I hold this concern about protecting the integrity of sport.
I have received assurances from the Minister. We will keep an eye on this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, a strong case has been made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. It is rather nice to see the rebirth of Section 17 of the Digital Economy Act, which I had the honour of being instrumental in inserting into that Act during its passage through this House. As a result, I was nominated as the “internet villain of the year”.
As it happens, I need to correct the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey: it is not that particular section that is used in order to block ISPs where copyright infringement is being demonstrated; it is actually Section 97A of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, which has proved extremely effective. In a way, it demonstrates that you do not need such a complicated clause. That is neither here nor there, but it does show that site-blocking is perfectly effective. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, demonstrated, the BPI has been very successful in defending copyright owners in that respect, contrary to the views of Ofcom, which were expressed in 2010 and are the reason why Section 17 of the Digital Economy Act has not been brought into effect.
When I read the evidence of the Gambling Commission to the DCMS Select Committee, I really do not know what kind of universe it is living in. Its conclusions seem rather extraordinary. It is worth reading out the paragraph that deals with its rationale for why it did not recommend to the Government the introduction of site-blocking or financial measures of the kind the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, deal with. It says:
“We have also followed carefully the experience of gambling regulators in other parts of the world with site and payment blocking, which suggests in the gambling market such measures have achieved only limited disruption and deterrent effects”.
Actually, a lot of jurisdictions have adopted those, as we have heard today. The commission goes on to say:
“However this may be because they were tried primarily in markets where the legal offering was severely constrained and the tax rates high”.
I am not sure about that. It continues:
“In the case of UK gambling there is no equivalent to the copyright owners to seek injunctions nor any statutory power for the Commission at the moment to seek such injunctions. We came to the conclusion that, given all the other measures at our disposal and the very open and attractive legal opportunities for those licensed by the Commission, seeking additional powers in the Bill to enable the Commission to seek injunctions blocking illegal operators’ sites or use of payment processors would not be proportionate to the likely risks and would, if obtained, risk consuming disproportionate Commission resources to achieve limited disruption and deterrent effect”.
That argument seems to me to be saying, “The carrots are absolutely fantastic and that will mean that there will not be too much of an illegal market”. There are going to be illegal markets; there are going to be unlicensed operators; and the commission is more or less saying that the only stick of some kind at its disposal, and we have heard about the flaws in that, are on the advertising front.
The commission did say, however, that,
“we did not rule out the option of seeking such powers at a later date if our assessment of the small size of the illegal market proved wrong and of course there are continuing discussions on the wider government front and in the European Commission in relation to combating misuse of the internet and illegal remote gambling provision”.
It is very odd for a regulator of this kind not to be looking at the precautionary aspects of all this. At the very least, taking reserve powers for site blocking in these circumstances would make great sense. I hope that, even if the Government cannot bring themselves to say that they will introduce and implement this kind of measure, they will at least take a reasonably pessimistic view that a number of unlicensed operators will still be knocking around who need a considerable amount of stick to make them comply with the new regime after the passing of this Act.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for raising through her amendments the subject of enforcement and for initiating this interesting debate. Enforcement is central to the achievement of the consumer protection purposes of the Bill.
The Bill will mean that overseas operators which are required, but fail, to obtain a required Gambling Commission licence will be committing an offence. The full set of regulatory powers available to the Gambling Commission under the 2005 Act will be at its disposal to take appropriate action against illegal overseas operators. The commission also has powers under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.
The amendments assume that the existing powers will be insufficient to enforce the Bill. This is not a view shared by the Government: we and the Gambling Commission are confident that the Bill can credibly be enforced. We are therefore not convinced that there is evidence of a problem which requires a legislative solution.
Amendment 5 would make an offence of accepting payments to or from unlicensed operators. If adopted, the amendment would have far-reaching and uncertain implications for banks and across the financial sector. Therefore, very careful consideration and consultation should occur.
Amendments 6, 7, 13 and 15 relate to financial transaction and ISP blocking. The evidence of the effectiveness and proportionality in respect of both ISP blocking and financial transaction blocking is mixed—I of course take the point made on this by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. A European Commission report in 2012 stated:
“The implementation of payment blocking systems entails substantial costs for the payment service provider and other financial institutions”.
The Norwegian Gaming Authority’s evaluation report found that,
“the prohibition against processing payments to foreign gaming companies was less effective than intended”.
On ISP blocking, a comprehensive 2010 Ofcom report found that:
“All techniques can be circumvented to some degree”.
I raise these comments to mark the card that there are a number of issues that we need to consider and resolve. Further, however, there are wider factors which would need proper consideration and assessment, such as the impact on financial institutions and internet service providers.
I assure your Lordships that we are not, and will not be, complacent about the issue of enforcement. We will keep this under continuing review. The Gambling Commission is working with a range of organisations that have a shared interest in not knowingly facilitating illegal activity.
Amendment 14 would require a consultation on the existing use of IP and financial transaction blocking. Should Ministers consider a consultation necessary, they already have the powers to undertake that. The Gambling Commission continues to build links and share information with regulatory bodies across the world. The Gambling Commission and the FCA are working together to tackle the issue of British financial transactions with illegal operators.
The Government do not want to rule out the use of blocking tools in future; should they become appropriate, necessary and demonstrably effective, that may well be a route. Until such a time, we do not consider that it would be appropriate to seek those powers. I can assure your Lordships that we are keeping these important matters under review. However, the Government remain rightly cautious when it comes to taking reserved powers. Should we consider such powers to be appropriate, necessary and demonstrably effective, it is right, as I said, that Parliament has time to scrutinise those fully as part of the primary legislation process. However, for the reasons I have outlined, I very much hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I am very grateful indeed to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate: to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and perhaps particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, who made some very interesting points and produced some additional evidence. However, of course I am particularly grateful to the Minister, who very kindly met some of us earlier last week to discuss these issues. He will of course realise that I am still very disappointed by what he had to say. Referring to my rather hard talk about half a Bill rather than a whole Bill, I sadly feel that if only he could have moved quite a long way in the direction we were proposing, it would have been very much a relevant and full Bill. However, I am reassured to some extent by his assurances that genuine enforcement mechanisms will be considered very carefully when rather more evidence has been gathered together on that issue. However, as we know, it is far too much carrot, and we are lacking on the stick side of the argument.
Again, I thank everyone, and I hope that we will continue to look hard at this area. I wish only that the Government could have delayed, done a bit more research and then come to the conclusion that would have satisfied us all rather more than we have been by what he has said. However, in the mean time I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I am glad we are having this short debate today. It is quite interesting that this has become a topic of current debate. I followed closely the debate that took place last week in the Commons on the subject.
I notice, and indeed I regret, that the noble Baroness herself does not express any regret for the legislation that was passed in 2005. After all, it was the Labour Government who introduced these FOBTs, and now we have had the proliferation of what appear to be highly damaging and addictive gambling machines in our high streets. Prefacing remarks along those lines would have been quite useful, because they were clearly introduced by that legislation.
However, I share her concerns about these machines. Indeed, it is all very well for the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, to say what he said, but we have been warning of the dangers of these machines ever since the passing of the 2005 Act because we thought that it would lead to the proliferation of these high-stakes machines. I will come on to the level of stakes in a minute because that is one of the key issues surrounding them.
Even though there is, in a sense, a cross-party view about the impact and danger of FOBTs, there is a level of disagreement because some of us feel that the evidence is already there that they are addictive, and that something should be done in the very short term. I am not going to adumbrate all the research that is out there but it includes that from GamCare, the Salvation Army, the National Problem Gambling Clinic, the Campaign for Fairer Gambling, Professor Gerda Reith at the University of Glasgow and even the European Journal of Public Health—a series of different reports can be prayed in aid to show that these machines really are a source of problem gambling, and that the problem is rising over time.
Clearly, the evidence is disputed by the Association of British Bookmakers; I am sure that we have all had its briefing, which heavily disputes some of the points that are being made about FOBTs. The association questions the validity of the evidence put forward by the British Gambling Prevalence Survey, for instance, and so on. The Government did not have much of a choice other than to say, “Right, let’s remit this to the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board and see what comes out of that”. I very much hope that that will be conclusive on the matter and lead to further action, although probably not through this Bill because I do not believe that any of this needs primary legislation. I do not believe that it is the planning system that is essentially at fault here. We heard during the Commons debate last week that Southwark Council is employing perfectly proper legal means to restrict the further spread of FOBTs and betting shops in its borough, and that sort of remedy is open to other councils to adopt.
I do not think that it is about that side of things; a lot of this problem boils down to stakes and prizes—something that can be remedied very straightforwardly by political will through secondary legislation, through regulations and through altering the stakes. At the moment you can put in £100, which is a huge amount of money for these machines in the high street. Some of the campaigns are saying that this should be reduced to £2—I think that that is somewhat drastic—but I certainly hope that when the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board reports it will make a recommendation about the appropriate level of stake that should be the limit for these machines. That will go a long way towards making sure that they are no longer as addictive as they currently are, and will also mean that bookmakers have to think very carefully about the profitability of their premises and we do not have the kind of proliferation that we appear to be having as a result of the ability to install these FOBTs. I appreciate the subject having been raised and I share the noble Baroness’s concerns but, ultimately, I hope that quite soon we can adopt a remedy by secondary legislation that could be relatively straightforward.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment, which gives us a timely opportunity to set out what the Government are doing. The Government acknowledge the harm that gaming machines cause for some people and have set out clearly what we are doing to address this. As part of our review of gaming machines last year, the Government looked very closely at the available evidence about category B2 gaming machines—FOBTs. The review found that there are real concerns about these machines and that some players have experienced considerable harm from using them. However, it is currently not clear that a reduction in stake or prize would be effective in reducing gambling-related harm.
The Government therefore concluded that the future of these machines was unresolved. We are undertaking urgent work to establish how these machines can be made safer, especially to those individuals who may be at the greatest risk of harm. Enhanced player protection measures will be introduced from 1 March, and research is under way by the Responsible Gambling Trust to identify where there is robust evidence that consumers may be experiencing harm. The Prime Minister confirmed last week that the Government will report on this issue in the spring. The Government will take whatever action is necessary to make these machines safer, and have very clearly set out our evidence-based approach to determining their future.
Amendment 8 raises a number of important points about the controls on gaming machines. I assure the Committee that the existing legislation already provides licensing controls on the provision of gaming machines as well as technical requirements about their operation. The amendment calls for new powers under which the Secretary of State may make regulations about the speed of play on a gaming machine, the messages that must be displayed and breaks in play.
Technical matters in relation to gaming machine operations are rightly a matter for the Gambling Commission and are controlled by the commission’s technical standards. These standards specify the minimum speed of play, which is twenty seconds for a FOBT, and also make clear what information must be displayed on the machine itself, or on screen, to enable players to keep track of their gambling.
Lord Collins of Highbury
My Lords, I will preface my remarks by repeating what my noble friend said in an earlier discussion, which is that the answer to all questions is more research. That is basically what this amendment is saying.
I will be really brief. It is widely believed among the public and people in public health and gambling regulation that online gambling represents the greatest challenge to be faced in the next few years in the prevention of problem gambling. As we heard earlier, problem gambling is often how you get started, how you become addicted—it is not necessarily the money; it is the addictive nature of the gaming system.
Of course, nowadays online gambling is not a social activity. It is not even about being in your own home; you are on the tube. When I am travelling on the tube I am struck by the number of people playing a certain game on their system. That is particularly true of young people but I confess that even I have the app on my iPad: Candy Crush Saga. There was a really interesting article in the paper last week by Mark Griffiths, director of the International Gaming Research Unit at Nottingham Trent University, who described it as,
“a bit like chocolate. You say you’ll just have one chunk, and you end up having the whole lot. So you say I’ll just play for 15 minutes, and you end up still there four or five hours later”.
Unbelievably, Candy Crush Saga has been downloaded 500 million times. Although it is possible to play this game for free, 40% of players pay for add-ons. As Mark Griffiths said, there is an overlap between online games that allow players to spend money on virtual accessories, or to access higher levels, and gambling. He said:
“It’s a psychological masterstroke that people pay money to buy virtual items. The next step is for gambling firms to say, maybe you could win back some of the money you’re spending”.
That is the hook, the encouragement, and it is young people who are doing this. They are doing it on the move on their mobile phones—God knows what their phone bills are like. Mark Griffiths also said:
“Children who play these free games are more likely to gamble and more likely to develop problem gambling behaviours. These are gateway activities that can lead people down the gambling road. When you start winning, you start thinking that if I was playing with real money I could be doing quite well”.
I tend to share his view that there is nothing wrong with kids playing gambling-type games. I am not in favour of legislating or banning things all the time but we must accompany the use of these games with education. We must be much more aware of the consequences, and certainly children need to be much more aware of them.
Something that struck me on daytime television—which I do not watch a lot but occasionally I do—is the constant advertising by bingo companies. Bingo is no longer a social activity. It was something that people went to do once a week to meet people. Now they are being encouraged to do it in their own home in isolation and, what is worse, they are being told: “Have £10 or £20 free”. Actually, nothing is free; they have to lodge £30 or £40 to get that £10.
I would like the Minister to address this issue. Surely we need to better understand how these games interact with gambling. I urge him to look into this issue in more detail. I beg to move.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his amendment and indeed for raising the emerging area of social gaming. The Government fully understand and share the concern about the possible use of social media by gambling operators to attract new players to real-money gambling by offering them “free to play” gambling-like activities on sites such as Facebook. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, expressed particular concern for young people, and the Government also have concerns about the possible impact on underage users of social media who may become habituated to gambling-like activities and may start to pay, in effect, for more time—the so-called premium social gaming business model—or be tempted into real-money gambling as soon as they are able.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport already has the power to conduct such a review and the Gambling Commission has already started the process. It has commissioned and published a review of what was known of the potential risks from social gambling on social media and has been working with the Responsible Gambling Strategy Board and the providers of social gaming, some of which are licensed gambling operators, to analyse the data on players and assess the potential impact in relation to problem gambling-type risks. This approach should help us to decide whether there are elements of social gaming that need to be addressed by either the Government or the regulator. We believe that to legislate on this issue at this stage would be premature.
However, the Bill will enable the Gambling Commission and/or the Secretary of State to impose any improved protection measures on all overseas operators that wish to engage with British consumers. I hope that the Committee will understand that work has already started on some of this process and we await more reporting on it. For those reasons, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment reflecting dormant accounts. While in the Government’s view there is no need for further primary legislation to enable the Government to undertake a consultation, we have already said that we will consider the recommendations of the Foster report after this Bill has been enacted. The Bill will make significant changes to the regulation of a large number of betting accounts, so it is right that we consider the report’s recommendations after the implementation of our remote gambling proposals.
The Government already have the power to impose a specific licence condition to gather information if we choose to do so following appropriate consultation. I am happy to confirm that if in due course we consider it necessary to progress the report’s recommendations, we would act to gather this information. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I very much thank the Minister for that contribution. On the basis of the further work that is taking place, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, we have already touched on the lack of research, particularly into problem gambling. I want to make a couple of quick points in support of our amendment. We have said that there is not enough research, which I think we all have acknowledged. It also seems that the industry is spending relatively small sums of money on research. At the moment, the amount of money paid by the sector is disturbingly small. It is estimated that the industry as a whole is worth some £6 billion a year, yet the amount available to the Responsible Gambling Trust through the voluntary levy is just over £5 million a year, with only 10% of that being spent on research.
When this was debated in the Commons, my colleague the Shadow Minister, Clive Efford, pointed out that when he looked on the Responsible Gambling Trust’s website, a lot of its activity seemed to be involved in fundraising. That is all very worthy but you would think that there was enough money around in the sector that it did not have to spend its time fundraising to pay for its activities. There should be a firmer way to fund this through a more consolidated levy. More work needs to be done. We need that research and we need to ensure that the funding is available. I beg to move.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her amendment. I entirely agree that the gambling industry should play its part in contributing to the research, education and treatment of problem gambling. The Government believe that the best solution is for the industry to recognise its responsibilities voluntarily. The industry must continue to help to tackle problem gambling. The current voluntary arrangements were revised only in 2012 and the Government are satisfied that the system is working as was intended in the Budd report of 2001, which recommended the arrangements.
As the noble Baroness said, at present the voluntary industry funding scheme provides around £5 million a year, 80% of which goes to bodies like GamCare, the Gordon Moody Association and the Soho clinic to provide advice and treatment. This funding has supported the introduction of a free-to-use national telephone helpline and the development of GambleAware, a general gambling information website. Useful work has been done in this area by the Responsible Gambling Trust and its predecessor body with local clinics or advice centres, to see how those developing problems can be identified and helped. In addition, the Soho clinic has piloted ways in which the NHS can help those with severe problems. The Responsible Gambling Strategy Board and the Responsible Gambling Trust are also considering how best to capture evidence of the actual harm from gambling to strengthen the case for greater support from local government, from NHS resources and, importantly, from the industry.
I hope that the Committee will be reassured that problem gambling and research into its prevention and treatment continue to be high on the agenda for the Government and the Gambling Commission. The Government will continue to monitor the effectiveness of the voluntary arrangements, and will of course take appropriate action if necessary. On that basis, I very much hope that the noble Baroness will be prepared to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. We have identified that there is not enough money available for research and for helping those who have an addiction and problems with gambling. I understand what the noble Lord is saying about the voluntary levy. We think that our suggestion for a compulsory levy is still worthy of merit and would like to lay that on the table for further consideration. However, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Browne of Belmont
My Lords, I am pleased to speak in support of the proposed new clause in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. The new clause is important because since 2005 a significant number of online gambling providers have moved outside the UK to European Economic Area and so-called whitelisted jurisdictions, from which they can continue to access the UK market and advertise but, crucially, avoid paying tax. The Bill, in tandem with the Treasury initiative, will plug that loophole, resulting in British consumers having to depend once more on British regulation.
In that context, the proposed new clause is vital for two reasons. First, we need to be sure that no British consumer will experience an erosion of the protections that they have come to rely on as a result of coming under UK regulation, at least so far as UK consumers are concerned. Secondly, we should always be working to ensure that the protections that we afford consumers, especially in relation to problem gambling, are the very best.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, has explained, Alderney is particularly important because it is a jurisdiction to which a number of UK operators have relocated. The better protections provided for problem gamblers in Alderney, in terms of the setting of limits, are certainly something that we should look at and maybe amend our codes and technical standards to emulate.
I would like to look at two EEA jurisdictions, Finland and Denmark, which in some important respects provide better regulation and consumer protection than we do here in the UK. Finland’s regulator has implemented a mandatory daily loss limit and a monthly loss limit, as well as setting a maximum amount of euros that can be in a gambling account of €5,000. The maximum daily loss is set at €500. Innovatively, they have also produced an actual boundary, something that is so often lacking in online gambling. Transfers from bank accounts to a gambling account cannot be made between midnight and 6 am. This creates a natural boundary that is similar to betting shop opening and closing times. Implementing such a provision would create a level playing field across the industry in general, and would help to protect people from unhelpful and impulsive all-night gambling sessions.
The responsibility codes go further in Finland. On marketing, there can be no registration bonuses, deposit bonuses or activation bonuses, and no rewards can be given based on gaming volume. Indeed, payment using credit cards is forbidden. It is possible in every game to activate a short 12-hour gaming ban that covers all games. This short self-imposed gambling ban can be activated by pressing a panic button that is located in the bottom half of the screen. Given that problem gambling is often associated with impulse, the provision of a button like that would help many people tremendously.
The Danish model of regulation, meanwhile, requires gambling companies to obtain information about the customer’s intended gambling volume at the same time as the customer provides identification information by opening an account. Players are allowed to set daily, weekly and monthly limits, and all three options must be given to the player. If a player chooses to self-exclude permanently, they must be given the option to be added to what in Denmark is referred to as the register of self-excluded players. This is a central list, much like the proposed one-stop shop for self-exclusion. If a player chooses to be added to that list they will not be able to gamble on any website that has a Danish licence, since every company, before allowing a player to gamble or open an account, must check the list to see if that person has entered their name to the register. To this end, as I have already explained, Amendment 3 is vital.
I very much support the proposed new clause. I hope that the Government will warmly endorse it, and I particularly look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about the protection that is afforded in Alderney, Sweden—as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Howe—Finland and Denmark, compared with those provided in the UK.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment. The Government are confident that the British regulatory system is a model of international best practice and that the Gambling Commission’s requirements are robust and of the highest standard. It is the commission’s job to ensure that the British regulatory system is the best that it can be, and to that extent always has its licensing conditions and technical standards under review. As the noble Baroness will be aware, the commission has just concluded its consultation into its licensing conditions and codes of practice, and we await its response. It is fair to say that the commission is internationally respected and continues to disseminate best practice, extensively engaging with overseas regulators. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, for illustrating what is happening in Finland and Denmark.
In preparation for the new licensing regime, the commission has had a series of meetings with regulators in Gibraltar, the Isle of Man and the States of Alderney to establish ways to minimise duplication. It will be using the recently developed multijurisdictional business form for those applying for remote operating licences, which enables operators to provide and update information, once in a form, that can be provided to multiple jurisdictions without duplication.
The commission continues to explore the scope for expanded collaboration. It also has memorandums of understanding in place with several regulators, including Alderney, for the sharing of information between regulators. This will enable the commission to use any licensing, compliance and enforcement information to determine the suitability of an operator to hold, and continue to hold, a British licence. Neither the Government nor the Gambling Commission is complacent about these matters, and should either feel that such a review would be appropriate, sufficient power already exists under the 2005 Act to enable that to take place. For that reason I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for his comments and of course to the Minister for what he has said and his assurance about the effectiveness of the powers that both the Government and the Gambling Commission already have.
I would like to know whether the Minister has a date for when the report that is under way will be published. That would give us a clearer idea of whether we will have further information by Report and so on. If that is not available at the moment, perhaps he could write to all of us in the Room and bring us up to date. It is quite important, because it will clearly help to inform whatever stance we take on Report. In the mean time, I thank noble Lords for having taken part and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.