European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My noble friend Lady Deech did not move an amendment; nor did the noble Lord, Lord Howell. I am talking about noble Lords who moved amendments. That is what I said, and I think it is rather shameful that none of them, apart from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is here.

I will support the Bill. I think that it is both necessary and urgent. I think the reasons for it are the need to send, ahead of the meeting next Wednesday in Brussels, a very clear message to our 27 European Union partners—and they are still our partners. When this Bill becomes an Act, it will send a useful message to them ahead of that meeting. It would have been much better if we could have passed it through all its stages today, but I do not believe that Monday is too late to pass a useful message, and I hope that we will do that in due course.

What is the message that we are passing? First, as other noble Lords who have spoken have said, it is that this House does not share, the other place does not share and the whole British Parliament does not share the view that no deal is better than a bad deal. That appalling mantra, which dominated the negotiations for so many months, even years, is, I think, being laid to rest by this indication—and about time too is all I would say.

The second message we are sending is that both Houses of this Parliament need more time and space to work on a new course for our relationship with the EU in future, whatever that might be. That is a useful message to send. I do not think that we ought to be too specific about how long it will take. It may be that some rather flexible formula can be found in Brussels next Wednesday to cover that, but the idea—

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

For the sake of the record, would the noble Lord confirm to the House that he is doing all he possibly can to keep our country in the European Union?

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am sorry to say that some of the noble Lord’s friends this afternoon did not even have the courtesy to give way when I tried to speak, so I have no intention of answering his intervention, which is nothing whatever to do with what I have said. I said that we should set a new course in our relationship with the European Union.

The question of the European Parliament elections cannot be completely discounted at this stage, but I do not think that we should allow that complication to be an impediment to a longer extension of the Article 50 period. There is no harm at all to be found in our participating in those elections. Obviously, should we definitively leave after the elections, the result would not be followed through. I would be grateful if the Minister, when he replies to this debate, could confirm reports that I have seen that the Government are in fact making the necessary preparations to hold a vote on 23 May if we are still in the European Union on that date. It would be really helpful to have that point made clearly, because we could then stop fussing too much about it.

I do not think that the issue of a consultation with the electorate will go away. It is not part of this legislation and therefore I will not go into great detail about it. I will say merely that so much has changed and so much is different from what was put to the people in 2016 that it would be little short of shameful if we did not consult them again. Of course, they might give the same answer as they gave before. So be it, if that is their answer—but they ought to be given the opportunity, I hope that in the not too distant future, when there is a clear picture of what Brexit means—not just “Brexit” but what it means in detail—they will have a chance to have their say.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I am grateful for the support I have had for my amendment and for the echo that uncertainty in the Brexit process is a problem for business and for citizens of this country. We really need to resolve this.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

Given that my noble friend has put uncertainty at the heart of her remarks, does she not think that at least some credence should be given to the idea of coming out and leaving Europe this Friday, which would give the certainty that everyone craves? There may be difficulties, but given that certainty is one of the overriding factors, surely that should be considered.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I will move on, rather than try to be Prime Minister for the afternoon. Clearly, I was concerned that it was not possible to look properly at the financial and business impacts in this Bill. I have heard it said that we would not take this as a precedent because of the special circumstances, which certainly gives me some comfort. I have to accept that the date is a matter that needs to be decided by a combination of the other place, the Prime Minister—and, of course, the EU, which I am afraid will also have a bearing on what date we eventually leave the EU.

In the circumstances and with thanks to those who have spoken, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords in moving this amendment, with the permission of the House I will also comment on Amendment 7 because the two are connected. I start with two realities. The first is that the most important purpose of this Bill is to ensure that we do not crash out or leave on Friday without a deal. It is critically important, therefore, that an extension is agreed before Friday. The second—

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords—

[Lord Goldsmith]

I will not give way because the noble Lord has not even heard what I am trying to say.

The second point is that it is very clear that we are running out of time—or running out of road, to go back to the Question in Oral Questions. If we can pass the Bill today, as I explained at the conclusion of Second Reading, it can return to the other place and be agreed and a Motion can then be passed to inform what the Prime Minister does on Wednesday.

When the Prime Minister puts forward a resolution, it may be agreed by the other place but other possibilities arise. One is that the request is put to the Council but the Council comes back with a counter proposal—a different date. I doubt from my experience of European negotiations that it will be quite as neat as that, because these things tend to happen in discussions and something will emerge. That will be important when I come to explain one issue about the Bill as it stands.

The point was also made powerfully at Second Reading that it is necessary to give the Prime Minister the flexibility to be able to agree to something put to her by the European Council if that emerges in the course of debate. Amendment 7 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, and myself is designed to deal with that possibility. There was strong support at Second Reading for being able to use the royal prerogative so that the Prime Minister would be able to make such an agreement. Amendment 7 would enable that to take place and avoid a situation where we might accidentally end up with no deal because there simply has not been time to go through all the processes.

So what does that have to do with this amendment? This amendment would remove subsections (6) and (7) of Clause 1, which would require a Motion being put to the other place in the event that the European Council comes up with a proposal. The reason for removing those subsections is twofold—for simplicity and to promote legal certainty. It promotes simplicity because it does not require there to be another stage of backwards and forwards in the very limited time before Friday. If the proposal had to go back to the other place and be agreed and then something was then put forward, we could find ourselves in a situation where we accidentally dropped out of the European Union without having reached the point that we wanted to.

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords—

[Lord Goldsmith]

I will give way to the noble Lord, but this will be the last time.

[Lord Framlingham]

It may be the only time I ask. The noble and learned Lord started his remarks by using the phrase “crashing out”. Everybody talks about crashing out. The BBC talks about crashing out. Sky News talks about crashing out. It has been part of the propaganda all along. Precisely what problems will be caused if we leave this coming Friday?

[Lord Goldsmith]

I respectfully invite the noble Lord to read fully the debate at Second Reading, where that was explained by a number of noble Lords.

Amendment 5 would take out subsections (5) and (6). The first reason to do that is to avoid the problem which could result in us running out of time; that is, the matter having to go to the other place and then come back. We have the safeguard that that amendment would require that the extension agreed by the Prime Minister could not end earlier than 22 May 2019. That is an important part of the amendment that is about to be proposed. We are safeguarding ourselves against leaving without a deal.

Legal certainty comes into it for several reasons. First, if noble Lords look at the Bill, they will see that subsection (6) refers to the condition in subsection (7) being operated because,

“the European Council proposes an extension of the period specified in Article 50(3)”.

There may be a question about whether there has in fact been a proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

Let me reassure my noble friend Lord Forsyth that I am not responsible for this Bill either, although I have to say that I am quite enjoying watching the Opposition perform procedural somersaults and disavow everything that has been said previously on matters such as respecting the House of Commons, affirmative resolutions and everything else. Nevertheless, we return to the subject.

It is the position of the Government that Clause 2 should remain part of the Bill. I appreciate the concerns expressed on this issue and the sentiments behind them, and of course I recall vividly the lengthy debate we had on parliamentary scrutiny of the use of delegated powers more generally during the passage of the EU withdrawal Bill. I seem to recall the Liberals arguing for precisely the opposite position at that stage, but consistency has never been their strong point. As noble Lords are aware, the Government do not support the Bill or the conditions it is attempting to impose on government. However, as I said earlier, given the support commanded in the other place, the Government have decided that they must intervene to improve and limit its most damaging effects.

The Bill creates a new parliamentary process that the Government must adhere to in order to agree an extension of Article 50 with the European Union, if the European Council proposes an end date to the extension different to that proposed by the House of Commons. Given that the European Council is on Wednesday 10 April and exit day is just two days later, there is a real risk that we will be timed out of agreeing an extension and therefore accidentally leave the EU without a deal. It would be extremely ironic, and it is clear the supporters of this Bill are opposed to that outcome.

Noble Lords will be well aware—indeed, I answered questions on this topic earlier today—that agreeing an extension is not a decision the UK can take alone. It must be agreed unanimously with all other 27 EU member states. Following this, we must also amend the date of exit in domestic law to ensure that the statute book accurately reflects what is set out in international law.

Under the draft affirmative procedure, both Houses are required to debate and approve the statutory instrument, which significantly increases the risk of this not being in force in time for 11 pm on 12 April. At that point all other EU exit SIs will come into force, regardless of the agreed extension date, causing considerable uncertainty and confusion for many. It is for that reason that the Government tabled this amendment—now Clause 2 of the Bill—in the other place, changing the procedure applying to the power in the 2018 Act from the draft affirmative to the negative procedure, and it is for this reason that the elected Chamber supported that approach. Nobody wants to take that risk.

Furthermore, not only has Parliament repeatedly argued in favour of an extension to Article 50 and against leaving the EU without a deal, both Houses have already debated and approved one SI to defer exit day. There is clearly widespread approval to use this power in such a way. As I am sure noble Lords are all aware, while the power has a significant effect—ensuring a functioning statute book—its scope is limited to changing exit day to the date already agreed in international law by the Prime Minister, and the SI cannot be made until that point. It is for this reason that the Government tabled the new clause and that the elected Chamber voted with a large majority to support this. I hope this House will support the same sentiment and allow this clause to stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Framlingham]

In among what is obviously an increasing shambles, can the Minister confirm that we leave the European Union this Friday by an existing Act of Parliament, and that the Government have conceded that—although this is not their chosen course of action—it could be quite successfully managed?

[Lord Callanan]

I answered a question from the noble Lord earlier today on that, and I am not sure there is much benefit in going back over those subjects. We are extensively prepared for no deal because that is the legal default, but we are now supporting this legislation—however flawed—that has been sent to us by the House of Commons.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab)]

My Lords, I believe—because I have no experience—that it is conventional at the end of long legislation to thank all those who were involved in the process. This may be slightly more difficult for me this evening than it would be in normal circumstances but, as many noble Lords have said, this is an historic moment. We are on the verge of some very significant discussions and negotiations that may well determine the future of this country—and, indeed, that of generations to come. Therefore, this piece of legislation, whether perfect or imperfect, will play a part in that history.

Oliver Letwin and Yvette Cooper were the godparents of the Bill; I came to it late in the day as a sort of adoptive parent. Its progress has been remarkable, from Wednesday last week to this evening, after which it will go to the other place. I thank those involved in the debate, significant as it is. Many people behind the scenes play a part in any legislation, never mind one fast-tracked in this unprecedented way. It is right at this point, having said so little in the debate myself, to pay tribute to those who have contributed constructively —and sometimes less than constructively—along with those who have made sure that the Bill has been carried forward expeditiously.

I hope that I speak for noble Lords across the House when I say that we hope that by the end of this week —especially by 11 pm on my birthday, on Friday—we will be in a much more secure position and the country will be in safer hands than perhaps we think it is tonight. I beg to move.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, this is really all about kicking the can down the road. I would guess that it must be quite a dented can by now. We have to ask where the road is leading: leave or stay, there is no middle way. All the other issues are just distractions. We have seen various complicated deals such as backstops, second referendums, customs unions—and now we have the thoughts of Jeremy Corbyn. They all muddy the water and they all hide the basic issue: are we going to leave to stay? Are we going to honour our promise to the British people or not?

The issue of timing, which is what we have been discussing, has become a farce. We were guaranteed that we would leave on 29 March, which then became 12 April. It may be 22 May, 30 June—or perhaps it will be Flexit. No one has any faith left. Perhaps the sooner we get to the stage where people have to vote for no deal or to revoke Article 50, the better. People have to decide to pin their colours to the mast by voting and taking the consequences.

This Bill is telling our Prime Minister what to do, which is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog, and therefore constitutional chaos. The Prime Minister will go to the EU and ask on bended knee for a change of date, or perhaps of terms. The EU members will leave her sitting alone in a separate room while they discuss her fate and our nation’s future. Nothing could better demonstrate how powerful and unyielding the EU has become, how much we are under its thumb, and why we should leave on Friday with a clean break.

Fortunately, change is already happening. On 29 March the passports changed, which is really good news. We need a clean break and a managed departure, not the catastrophic situation that the fearmongering remainers constantly pretend is the way to go. True, there might be some initial difficulties but massive advantages too.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Framlingham]

Noble Lords may snigger, as they have done for the past two and a half years, but they have to listen sometimes. It would remove the uncertainty and businesses could get on with their jobs. We can make trade deals with nations like the United States and save £39 billion. It is the constant fruitless, pointless debates and discussions that are so wearying and so debilitating. Once free from our EU entanglement, we will be able to move forward again in our own way. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, said that politics is sometimes thought to be the art of the possible. I think that sometimes politics is the art of having the courage to do the obvious.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, may I be the first to wish the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, a very happy birthday on Friday? I think he and I both agree that we do not want to meet here on Friday if we can avoid it.

Notwithstanding the second proponent of this Bill in two sitting days, this remains a terrible Bill. That needs to be put on the record. Will we get Sir Oliver Letwin and Yvette Cooper perhaps to answer questions on it? I fear not, because they have no responsibility. This Bill was described by my noble friend Lord Lawson as “constitutional vandalism”, and it is something we should all be concerned about. We know that the Government are in complete disarray, we know that Parliament is in chaos, and I have to say that this is an unwise move by this House to support it.

Noble Lords will be happy to know that I do not intend to talk for the next hour and a half.