Brexit: Parliamentary Processes

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Thursday 3rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord was obviously a loss to stand-up comedy. I repeat the assurances that I gave that the Government will of course at all times abide by the law. I have to say that, if the Opposition spent half as much time helping us to negotiate a better deal as they do undermining our negotiating position, we might be able to get a deal that we could all get behind and we would not have to go near obsessing about the provisions of the Benn Act.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that most Acts of Parliament are designed to benefit the people of this country, and the surrender Act is simply a ruse designed by those who want to stop us leaving the EU to tie the hands of our Prime Minister at this crucial time? I believe that it is a move that they, and this House, will live to regret.

[Lord Callanan]

I agree with my noble friend. I think the Benn Act was designed to undermine our negotiating position by people who actually do not want to leave the EU but do not have the courage to admit to the British people that that is what they in fact desire.

Brexit

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, in preparation for this debate, I both watched and listened to the Prime Minister’s speech. I have come to the conclusion that it was not time well spent.

I would like to concentrate on the consequences of Brexit, and in particular the impact on the rule of law. If the rule of law is to be effective, it must be observed both in substance and in process. Yet we continue to have the threat from the Prime Minister, supported by others in his Government, that somehow a way will be found to avoid implementing the obligations contained in the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act. Not only does that Act carry the imprimatur of both Houses of Parliament; it has Royal Assent. So, by his very conduct in even suggesting it, the Prime Minister is yet again undermining the position of the monarch.

I was stimulated to deal with this topic by an article written by the noble Lord, Lord Hague, which appeared in a national newspaper this week. He argued that the rule of law was of great importance for the Tory party. That ought to be true, but I am not sure it is what we have been seeing in practice—and it is perhaps most important for the country. After the announcement of the judgment of the Supreme Court, Minister after Minister sought to undermine that judgment—some covertly, others by way of open attack. To attack judges in that way is a contempt of court; in Scotland it used until 1971 to be called “murmuring” a judge. To attack them in that way is to defame them; you are behaving in a defamatory way.

All that culminated in the suggestion that there should be public hearings of confirmation before individuals could ascend to the Supreme Court. I do not shrink from saying that that was a full-frontal attack on judicial independence. How would we apply it? Would we draw on the recent experience of the United States? Would that be our benchmark? Would we say to people, after Senator McCarthy, “Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Conservative Party?”. Exactly what would the questioning amount to?

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

Does the noble Lord acknowledge that both the Master of the Rolls and the Lord Chief Justice disagreed entirely with the view of the Supreme Court?

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem]

I acknowledge that, but the fact of the matter is that, in our system, the Supreme Court is, as its name suggests, supreme. That decision having been taken, it is in my view wholly unacceptable to have the kind of treatment that was made covertly and, in some cases, openly in relation to the judgment issue. The same would have been true if, for example, those of the same cast of mind as Gina Miller had attacked the decision made by the divisional court. Attacking the independence of judges matters not for what they have decided; what matters is their independence, and that must be emphasised and encouraged at all stages.

Will the Minister name a legal jurisdiction which is more independent, impartial or incorruptible than the two legal jurisdictions of the United Kingdom? Politicisation will be the death knell of all three of these vital qualities. The fact is that, if the Supreme Court had found in favour of the Government, it would have been praised for its Periclean wisdom. Medals might even have been struck.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 6th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I thought that would get a cheer.

We have heard many concerns raised about the Bill. However, more fundamentally, the issues at play here are not just technical. This is about seriously undermining negotiations that could achieve a deal before 31 October, frustrating the referendum result and stopping Brexit.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I shall genuinely be extremely brief. I just want to say that I object strongly to both the Bill and the way it has been handled. This is a sad day for both the country and for our House.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I second everything that was said from the two Front Benches on this side in thanks to everybody. I have just been the messenger from the Commons, intervening occasionally, because these are unusual circumstances. I certainly thank everybody who has been involved.

At about 1 am the other day, I was quite looking forward to the debate, because I had almost got my second wind—it was just like the old days in the Commons. Then, of course, it all went quiet and packed up. Genuinely, I thank everybody who has participated. I have to say that we have rewritten the conventions, not the least through the seven-minute speech we have just heard from the Minister. That should have been made as a Statement or in the wind-up of Second Reading; it was completely inappropriate under the rules of this House to do it under the Motion that the Bill do now pass.

Having got that off my chest, this is not the end, because our procedures will change as a result of the Bill. Things will happen differently. That may be regrettable, it is true, but precedents have been created during the Bill’s passage, some of which we may come to regret, but I thank everybody who has participated.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 5th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That statement—“the only way”—again reveals the Manichean approach. There are already controls on livestock and weapons down the Irish Sea. They already exist. There are controls all around the invisible border to Northern Ireland, so this constant either/or is misleading us and guiding us away from sensible compromise solutions, which a calmer atmosphere would soon reveal and resolve.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

I am afraid the arguments today are already becoming as circular as ever. Is the truth not that remainers will not accept the position, just as leavers have their views too? What my noble friend is saying is absolutely true: those who really understand it know there are ways of doing this, but the baying leavers will not accept it. I urge my noble friend to save his breath and move on to something else.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I thank my noble friend for that encouragement. I turn now to a matter addressed to my own party, which will possibly produce more agreement opposite. The so-called Cummings purge is a major political blunder. These blunders happen at the end of a sequence of earlier blunders. You can watch how earlier mistakes and errors, blunder after blunder, lead to a point where, suddenly, there seems no choice and the new folly is committed. The new folly of my party is to reduce its membership by 21 and exclude two ex-Chancellors, an ex-Deputy Prime Minister and my dear friend Sir Nicholas Soames. I just hope it will pass. I hope Rory Stewart’s view that this will pass is right, and that they are restored to the party. This is again part of the Manichean tone in which matters are presented, when everything is either right or wrong, in black and white.

Delay of the Bill will solve nothing, although it seems a way out. In another three months, we will be back to exactly where we were before. The referendum so beloved of the Lib Dems, even if we get it through, will not solve anything either. An election is bound to come sometime, but I say to my noble friends that, whether it comes or not, normal times will never return. We are living in a completely different digital age, in which populism is in power. Both parties—mine and the great Labour Party—will have to reunite and change on entirely different terms. Neither can build on the basis of the old dogmas. If that is the one lesson that emerges from this unhappy situation, let us at least take account of it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mandelson]

I do not remember any of those intricacies, highways and byways being set out by anyone at the time or since—but, of course, the House will be interested in what the noble Baroness has to say.

The fact that any possibility of maintaining frictionless trade has been explicitly excluded by the Government is extremely serious for the manufacturing sector in this country and the long-term health of our economy. I do not see and cannot understand how, given the nature of just-in-time, sophisticated manufacturing supply chains and the way in which they operate between the UK and the continent, it will be possible for Japanese car companies or Airbus or any significant manufacturing enterprise to sustain production in Britain in the medium term.

That does not mean to say that they are all going to pull stumps, shut the doors and pull the shutters down and leave the day after tomorrow. Of course they are not, and any sense that they might is an absurd piece of hyperbole. However, over time—by which I mean between five and 10 years and probably on the shorter end of that spectrum—these great manufacturing companies are going to have to make new arrangements. They are going to have to move production in a way that enables them to secure continuity of their supply chains and the frictionless trade that they will no longer have when sustaining production in this country.

Let us not go back over all the customs union and single market arguments. I do not know what has happened to the Kinnock amendment and his and his colleagues’ advocacy of Norway. All I would say is that it would appear that there is no political possibility of those options being reintroduced or attracting and sustaining a majority, certainly in the other House. Let us acknowledge that they would in any case raise issues of regulatory dependence by this country on the European Union, while having no say in the making of those regulations.

I do not dismiss that. Having been on both sides of this as a UK Business Secretary and a member of the European Commission, I take rather seriously the idea that we in this country would simply be on the receiving end of laws and regulations made in Brussels over which we would have been able to express no view. There are real issues involved here and I acknowledge them.

In conclusion, the central point—and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds made it earlier—is that the referendum in 2016 was an in/out one. It was an in-principle referendum. It was not about the how and the terms on which we would leave the European Union. No hint of those terms was spelled out between a soft and a hard Brexit, and of course there was absolutely no indication of leaving without n deal at all.

So now, as we find ourselves, at the behest of the new Prime Minister, hurtling towards a no-deal exit, I believe that the Government should accept that this really cannot and should not happen without the express approval either of Parliament or the public. I will wind up, if I may—it is nice to see the Government Front Bench intervening in a debate at long last. Here is my further point in conclusion. I do not believe that the express approval of the British public for how we leave the European Union can possibly be expressed by means of a general election.

[Lord Framlingham]

The noble Lord is maintaining that there is no debate about what would happen after the referendum. Does he not recall that the leave people made lots of forecasts—some of which have not happened—and that the Government spent a fortune sending leaflets to every household in the country, warning about all the problems in great detail? There was a huge amount of debate at the time of the referendum. It was not simply in or out and nothing else.

[Lord Mandelson]

Perhaps my recollection is at fault, but I do not remember a huge amount of debate about the respective merits of a soft and hard Brexit, let alone a no-deal Brexit.

In conclusion, I do not think that you can arrive at a clear choice about how we leave the European Union by means of a general election in which so many issues, subjects and personalities are at play. We should look to a clear-choice referendum where the options are properly explained and a full debate is had. The public can give their final say one way or the other about how—and, if the how on offer is unsatisfactory, if—we eventually leave the European Union.

It may be that the Government want one of these options to be a no deal. If so, it is up to the Government to put forward a no-deal option in a clear, final-say referendum. If they want to do that, so be it. If they have exhausted all the alternative negotiating possibilities, let that be put fairly and squarely to the public in a referendum. It must be a clear alternative—a clear choice—that the public are asked to make. Without it, I am afraid we are never going to find a way of resolving what is a most acute conundrum.

Brexit: Date of Exit

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I always value the advice of the noble Lord, but I think in this case we will not be taking that particular piece of advice.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, could I urge the Minister to make it clear that, if we should leave the European Union this coming Friday, it would be neither catastrophic nor chaotic? It is true there might be some initial problems, but a lot of major issues would be cleared away immediately, and certainty would certainly be welcomed by the whole nation. It would give us a chance for a successful departure from the EU.

[Lord Callanan]

My noble friend is right to point out that we have been making extensive preparations across government for no deal, and I think that is a situation we could manage. Nevertheless, we are where we are. The House of Commons has refused to pass the withdrawal agreement and, with its agreement, the Prime Minister has decided that we need to seek a further extension.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 8th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I am grateful for the support I have had for my amendment and for the echo that uncertainty in the Brexit process is a problem for business and for citizens of this country. We really need to resolve this.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

Given that my noble friend has put uncertainty at the heart of her remarks, does she not think that at least some credence should be given to the idea of coming out and leaving Europe this Friday, which would give the certainty that everyone craves? There may be difficulties, but given that certainty is one of the overriding factors, surely that should be considered.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I will move on, rather than try to be Prime Minister for the afternoon. Clearly, I was concerned that it was not possible to look properly at the financial and business impacts in this Bill. I have heard it said that we would not take this as a precedent because of the special circumstances, which certainly gives me some comfort. I have to accept that the date is a matter that needs to be decided by a combination of the other place, the Prime Minister—and, of course, the EU, which I am afraid will also have a bearing on what date we eventually leave the EU.

In the circumstances and with thanks to those who have spoken, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords in moving this amendment, with the permission of the House I will also comment on Amendment 7 because the two are connected. I start with two realities. The first is that the most important purpose of this Bill is to ensure that we do not crash out or leave on Friday without a deal. It is critically important, therefore, that an extension is agreed before Friday. The second—

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords—

[Lord Goldsmith]

I will not give way because the noble Lord has not even heard what I am trying to say.

The second point is that it is very clear that we are running out of time—or running out of road, to go back to the Question in Oral Questions. If we can pass the Bill today, as I explained at the conclusion of Second Reading, it can return to the other place and be agreed and a Motion can then be passed to inform what the Prime Minister does on Wednesday.

When the Prime Minister puts forward a resolution, it may be agreed by the other place but other possibilities arise. One is that the request is put to the Council but the Council comes back with a counter proposal—a different date. I doubt from my experience of European negotiations that it will be quite as neat as that, because these things tend to happen in discussions and something will emerge. That will be important when I come to explain one issue about the Bill as it stands.

The point was also made powerfully at Second Reading that it is necessary to give the Prime Minister the flexibility to be able to agree to something put to her by the European Council if that emerges in the course of debate. Amendment 7 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, and myself is designed to deal with that possibility. There was strong support at Second Reading for being able to use the royal prerogative so that the Prime Minister would be able to make such an agreement. Amendment 7 would enable that to take place and avoid a situation where we might accidentally end up with no deal because there simply has not been time to go through all the processes.

So what does that have to do with this amendment? This amendment would remove subsections (6) and (7) of Clause 1, which would require a Motion being put to the other place in the event that the European Council comes up with a proposal. The reason for removing those subsections is twofold—for simplicity and to promote legal certainty. It promotes simplicity because it does not require there to be another stage of backwards and forwards in the very limited time before Friday. If the proposal had to go back to the other place and be agreed and then something was then put forward, we could find ourselves in a situation where we accidentally dropped out of the European Union without having reached the point that we wanted to.

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords—

[Lord Goldsmith]

I will give way to the noble Lord, but this will be the last time.

[Lord Framlingham]

It may be the only time I ask. The noble and learned Lord started his remarks by using the phrase “crashing out”. Everybody talks about crashing out. The BBC talks about crashing out. Sky News talks about crashing out. It has been part of the propaganda all along. Precisely what problems will be caused if we leave this coming Friday?

[Lord Goldsmith]

I respectfully invite the noble Lord to read fully the debate at Second Reading, where that was explained by a number of noble Lords.

Amendment 5 would take out subsections (5) and (6). The first reason to do that is to avoid the problem which could result in us running out of time; that is, the matter having to go to the other place and then come back. We have the safeguard that that amendment would require that the extension agreed by the Prime Minister could not end earlier than 22 May 2019. That is an important part of the amendment that is about to be proposed. We are safeguarding ourselves against leaving without a deal.

Legal certainty comes into it for several reasons. First, if noble Lords look at the Bill, they will see that subsection (6) refers to the condition in subsection (7) being operated because,

“the European Council proposes an extension of the period specified in Article 50(3)”.

There may be a question about whether there has in fact been a proposal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

Let me reassure my noble friend Lord Forsyth that I am not responsible for this Bill either, although I have to say that I am quite enjoying watching the Opposition perform procedural somersaults and disavow everything that has been said previously on matters such as respecting the House of Commons, affirmative resolutions and everything else. Nevertheless, we return to the subject.

It is the position of the Government that Clause 2 should remain part of the Bill. I appreciate the concerns expressed on this issue and the sentiments behind them, and of course I recall vividly the lengthy debate we had on parliamentary scrutiny of the use of delegated powers more generally during the passage of the EU withdrawal Bill. I seem to recall the Liberals arguing for precisely the opposite position at that stage, but consistency has never been their strong point. As noble Lords are aware, the Government do not support the Bill or the conditions it is attempting to impose on government. However, as I said earlier, given the support commanded in the other place, the Government have decided that they must intervene to improve and limit its most damaging effects.

The Bill creates a new parliamentary process that the Government must adhere to in order to agree an extension of Article 50 with the European Union, if the European Council proposes an end date to the extension different to that proposed by the House of Commons. Given that the European Council is on Wednesday 10 April and exit day is just two days later, there is a real risk that we will be timed out of agreeing an extension and therefore accidentally leave the EU without a deal. It would be extremely ironic, and it is clear the supporters of this Bill are opposed to that outcome.

Noble Lords will be well aware—indeed, I answered questions on this topic earlier today—that agreeing an extension is not a decision the UK can take alone. It must be agreed unanimously with all other 27 EU member states. Following this, we must also amend the date of exit in domestic law to ensure that the statute book accurately reflects what is set out in international law.

Under the draft affirmative procedure, both Houses are required to debate and approve the statutory instrument, which significantly increases the risk of this not being in force in time for 11 pm on 12 April. At that point all other EU exit SIs will come into force, regardless of the agreed extension date, causing considerable uncertainty and confusion for many. It is for that reason that the Government tabled this amendment—now Clause 2 of the Bill—in the other place, changing the procedure applying to the power in the 2018 Act from the draft affirmative to the negative procedure, and it is for this reason that the elected Chamber supported that approach. Nobody wants to take that risk.

Furthermore, not only has Parliament repeatedly argued in favour of an extension to Article 50 and against leaving the EU without a deal, both Houses have already debated and approved one SI to defer exit day. There is clearly widespread approval to use this power in such a way. As I am sure noble Lords are all aware, while the power has a significant effect—ensuring a functioning statute book—its scope is limited to changing exit day to the date already agreed in international law by the Prime Minister, and the SI cannot be made until that point. It is for this reason that the Government tabled the new clause and that the elected Chamber voted with a large majority to support this. I hope this House will support the same sentiment and allow this clause to stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Framlingham]

In among what is obviously an increasing shambles, can the Minister confirm that we leave the European Union this Friday by an existing Act of Parliament, and that the Government have conceded that—although this is not their chosen course of action—it could be quite successfully managed?

[Lord Callanan]

I answered a question from the noble Lord earlier today on that, and I am not sure there is much benefit in going back over those subjects. We are extensively prepared for no deal because that is the legal default, but we are now supporting this legislation—however flawed—that has been sent to us by the House of Commons.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My noble friend Lady Deech did not move an amendment; nor did the noble Lord, Lord Howell. I am talking about noble Lords who moved amendments. That is what I said, and I think it is rather shameful that none of them, apart from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is here.

I will support the Bill. I think that it is both necessary and urgent. I think the reasons for it are the need to send, ahead of the meeting next Wednesday in Brussels, a very clear message to our 27 European Union partners—and they are still our partners. When this Bill becomes an Act, it will send a useful message to them ahead of that meeting. It would have been much better if we could have passed it through all its stages today, but I do not believe that Monday is too late to pass a useful message, and I hope that we will do that in due course.

What is the message that we are passing? First, as other noble Lords who have spoken have said, it is that this House does not share, the other place does not share and the whole British Parliament does not share the view that no deal is better than a bad deal. That appalling mantra, which dominated the negotiations for so many months, even years, is, I think, being laid to rest by this indication—and about time too is all I would say.

The second message we are sending is that both Houses of this Parliament need more time and space to work on a new course for our relationship with the EU in future, whatever that might be. That is a useful message to send. I do not think that we ought to be too specific about how long it will take. It may be that some rather flexible formula can be found in Brussels next Wednesday to cover that, but the idea—

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

For the sake of the record, would the noble Lord confirm to the House that he is doing all he possibly can to keep our country in the European Union?

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am sorry to say that some of the noble Lord’s friends this afternoon did not even have the courtesy to give way when I tried to speak, so I have no intention of answering his intervention, which is nothing whatever to do with what I have said. I said that we should set a new course in our relationship with the European Union.

The question of the European Parliament elections cannot be completely discounted at this stage, but I do not think that we should allow that complication to be an impediment to a longer extension of the Article 50 period. There is no harm at all to be found in our participating in those elections. Obviously, should we definitively leave after the elections, the result would not be followed through. I would be grateful if the Minister, when he replies to this debate, could confirm reports that I have seen that the Government are in fact making the necessary preparations to hold a vote on 23 May if we are still in the European Union on that date. It would be really helpful to have that point made clearly, because we could then stop fussing too much about it.

I do not think that the issue of a consultation with the electorate will go away. It is not part of this legislation and therefore I will not go into great detail about it. I will say merely that so much has changed and so much is different from what was put to the people in 2016 that it would be little short of shameful if we did not consult them again. Of course, they might give the same answer as they gave before. So be it, if that is their answer—but they ought to be given the opportunity, I hope that in the not too distant future, when there is a clear picture of what Brexit means—not just “Brexit” but what it means in detail—they will have a chance to have their say.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend described members of the ERG as being involved in a conspiracy because they sought to ensure what every single Conservative Member of Parliament stood on—a manifesto that said we would leave the single market and the customs union. I describe that as an act of integrity—of keeping their word to the people who elected them. For my noble friend to suggest that he has always been in favour of this and has been working assiduously to deliver what they stood for election on is beyond parody.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I am normally quite an optimistic man, but now I am really very close—at least in parliamentary terms—to despair. I despair for the Commons, I despair for your Lordships’ House and the way we have behaved over the past two years, and I despair for the British people who are being so appallingly governed. As an ex-Deputy Speaker, I am really saddened by the way our long-understood and cherished parliamentary rules are being thrown aside by people who should know better in their reckless campaign to stop us leaving the EU. As my noble friend Lord True explained to the House yesterday, it is vital that we differentiate clearly between the issues that may divide us—however important—and the structures and mechanisms that allow us to decide these matters in an orderly way. In stormy seas, it is important to cling to the structures that have served us so well in the past. Without a firm and settled framework in which to work, we will descend into chaos—indeed, perhaps we already have.

This leads me on to the pantomime taking place in the Commons today: a circus, with the Speaker as ring- master and the Prime Minister and Government as mere onlookers. What nonsense: indicative votes. All these suggestions and countersuggestions—second referendums, Norway, customs unions, hard Brexit, soft Brexit—have only one thing in common: they are all designed to prevent us leaving the European Union. That is what it is all about; it is a very simple matter. There is a pretence of accepting the referendum result, and I have heard it again in the Chamber today. How many people start their remarks by saying, “I completely accept the referendum result”, and then go on in their speech to indicate quite clearly that they have not, do not and never will? They call it improving the Bill or a better deal for the country. The truth is that they want to stop us leaving and to stop happening what the majority of the people in this country voted for and still want.

We have been told times without number by the Prime Minister that we leave on 29 March. I need not remind noble Lords that that is the day after tomorrow. If only we had had the honesty and courage to keep our word, get on with it as the country is urging us to do and remove the uncertainty, as people are crying out for: no more haggling deals; start trade talks; keep our money. What about all those companies that have planned for 29 March and are now told it is not happening—all those companies and people who believed the Prime Minister and planned to leave on that date? I do not believe that the Prime Minister should have agreed to extend the departure date in the way she has. This statutory instrument and the need for it are highly questionable. Although I would not want to damage British business or all the institutions, I find it absolutely intolerable that we have been put in this position by a Prime Minister who simply could not or would not keep her word.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I acknowledge the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, but I disagree almost entirely with every word he uttered.

It has come to this. After two and a half years of trench warfare by remainers, it is Parliament against the people—or at least most of Parliament against the majority of the people. As the broadcast media continues to pour out its anti-Brexit propaganda, who can be surprised that tempers are becoming frayed? Who is going to feel responsible as events unfold?

All great issues are, I believe, essentially very simple. We make them complicated when we do not want to face them. The plain fact is that we leave the European Union on 29 March. Remain fanatics both inside and outside Parliament have fought tooth and nail to obstruct the decision taken in 2016. They pretended they were trying to improve the situation, but all their suggestions have been nothing more than distractions, sideshows and ruses, designed for one purpose: to stop us leaving. Starting with the judicial review, we have had a meaningful vote, withdrawal agreements, second referendums, people’s votes, backstops, the postponement or revocation of Article 50 and, last but not least, a general election.

As far as I can see, there is little point in pursuing any of those ideas further or in further discussions. The arguments are increasingly circular and are leading us absolutely nowhere. Divisions are deep and abiding. The trouble is that when discussion stops, friction becomes more likely, and who is going to be held to blame for that? The only sensible, positive and optimistic way forward is for us to accept that we are leaving the EU on 29 March and to make all the necessary arrangements as quickly as possible.

Can we please slay the last big bogeyman, that leaving without a deal will be disastrous? Let us have no more hysterical talk, and sadly we have heard it again today, of crashing out—the BBC is, I think, the worst offender—of cliff edges and of catastrophes? There is never really any detail of how and why those things could, or should, arise.

Can I make a plea? Can I urge remainers not to continue their virulent disparagement of our leaving without a deal? It helps no one. My noble friend Lord Lilley, who knows much about these things, has set out detailed reasons why leaving without a formal deal is workable and indeed has many advantages. He understands the position, I believe, better than anyone. Time does not permit me to list them all here but I would like to mention some. The UK will not pay its £39 billion divorce bill. It avoids a transition period and we can get on with things straight away. There is no need for an Irish backstop. The UK as a whole will be able to enter a Canada-plus-plus-type deal. The WTO is a safe haven, not a hard option. UK exports to countries trading on WTO rules have grown three times faster than to the EU. I could go on. My noble friend deals with most of the issues that we are concerned with, in my opinion, very adequately.

By statute, we leave the EU on 29 March. Only by statute can this be stopped, and that would be a truly disastrous course of action. The only way possible to bring together the different factions in this issue, and at the same time move the nation forward to a better and more positive future, is to put our differences behind us if we can and set ourselves a common goal. I suggest that my noble friend Lord Lilley’s proposals show us the way.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Framlingham Excerpts

Thursday 6th September 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Framlingham]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what individual representations they have received from other European Union member states about the present state of negotiations for the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, alongside negotiations with the European Commission, the Government have regular engagement with EU member states to explain our position. In all the UK’s engagement, it respects the unity of the EU 27. Member states have welcomed the White Paper as a serious proposal for negotiations and share our desire for an ambitious deal. We will now hold continuous negotiations with the EU to secure a good deal.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. I urge him not to listen to the doom-mongers on this issue who constantly talk about crashing out and falling off the cliffs. I ask him to sell the idea that this Brexit is a very positive effort. We are going to be able to trade globally after Brexit, not least with the other European countries.

Further to that—oh gosh, I have had one of those moments. Ah, I know what I wanted to say—it is the most important bit, really. Perhaps noble Lords can see that I have a bad eye and have had quite a bump; it is amazing what Remainers will do to stop you asking Questions. I return to the fact that the Chequers proposal is quite clearly dead in the water and not going to work, whereas “Canada plus plus plus” is supported by us and by Mr Barnier and Europe. It seems the obvious way forward. In order to get the initiative back on track and make Brexit the success that it can be, I urge the Minister to press that kind of agreement.

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his questions. Of course the Government share his desire for Brexit to be the success that we know it can be. We remain committed to the Chequers proposals and are negotiating on them. As the Prime Minister has said, the problem with a CETA-style arrangement is that it would mean a significant reduction in the access that we currently enjoy to each other’s markets. Crucially, of course, it would mean customs and regulatory checks at the border, particularly the Northern Ireland border. So we remain committed to our proposals and to making Brexit a success.