Project Tempora

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I probably should just refer the noble Lord to the 2012 annual report of the Interception of Communications Commissioner, which was published on 18 July this year. In it he said that RIPA had weathered well and the system of oversight it laid down has been, he believes, effective.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that we all agree that GCHQ and the intelligence and security services do very important work to protect us from many threats but that effective democratic oversight is absolutely vital? With no disrespect to my noble friend Lord Lothian—I call him my noble friend—or indeed the noble Lord, Lord Butler, recent events have shown that the Intelligence and Security Committee, as currently constituted, is not really effective. Can the Minister give us some assurance that, in the new structure of the Intelligence and Security Committee that we are considering, we will have a robust membership accountable to both Houses of Parliament?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord will be aware that the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee has been up for discussion. I will ensure that his views are fed into that.

Foreign Languages: European Institutions

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I will certainly make sure that we try to incorporate the opportunities which exist for civil servants in the European Union institutions as part of the reform of the European Union because the more Brits that we have fighting for British interests within the European Union, the better it is for the country as a whole.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Does not the Minister think that this will be an increasing problem, particularly with the growth of free schools, approved by the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats, where staff do not need any qualifications and we cannot be guaranteed that they are proficient in English, let alone any other language?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am not sure that I can answer education questions as well. However, what I can say from this Dispatch Box is that I am a huge supporter of free schools and the opportunities that they present to some of the most marginalised. I can give examples of communities that I work incredibly with where children who have been let down by much of what was available to them in the education system previously are now being offered the best education—the kind of education which some parents can pay for but which is now being offered to these children and is paid for by the state.

Syria

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I can assure my noble friend that we are trying to do all we can to bring the parties to the table. At the moment, the challenge has been in relation to the regime. We feel that people from the regime should be credible, and should be those who can take decisions and make sure that they are subsequently effected. To try to broaden that beyond the regime at this stage is not something that we think would be constructive.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, further to my noble friend’s question, will the Minister not concede that the Syrian Government have agreed, the Russians have agreed and the Americans have agreed to participate? Did she see a report by Reuters that the leader of the Syrian National Council has said that it is holding out to get more arms and waiting until then to strengthen its negotiating position? Surely, the British Government’s policy in holding out the prospect of giving it arms is therefore counterproductive.

[Baroness Warsi]

I have said on many occasions at this Dispatch Box and maybe should say again that no decision has been taken to arm the Syrian opposition. The noble Lord will be aware that the national coalition has just elected a new president, Ahmed Assi al-Jarba, who has made it his job, among other things—indeed, he did so before his election—to broaden the coalition to include more people within it, to make sure that he unites the coalition. He is committed to the Geneva process.

Syria

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2013 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what circumstances they consider would justify an escalation of action by external Governments in Syria.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, we have continually escalated our involvement in Syria in response to the deteriorating situation. The conflict has now reached catastrophic proportions: 80,000 people have been killed, and millions have fled their homes. In response, we have committed an additional £30 million for humanitarian assistance and doubled our support to the moderate opposition to £20 million. We strongly support the US-Russia plan to convene an international conference with both the opposition and the Syrian regime.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, with respect to the Minister, that does not answer my Question. Does she agree that lifting the arms embargo would be the first dangerous step towards military intervention, which could only worsen the situation and would not solve the problem in Syria? Will she urge the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary to redouble their efforts for a political solution and, above all, to do nothing that would jeopardise it?

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with the noble Lord that the only way in which this matter will eventually be resolved will be through a political solution. It is important that we bear in mind the change in circumstances. As the noble Lord is aware, we have at stages changed the way that the arms embargo has been applied. We started by providing very basic equipment such as cameras and satellite phones, and training, with a view to making sure that the abuses that were being committed in Syria were documented. We then stepped that up: we supplied generators, water purification tablets and other items of humanitarian support. However, after January of this year, when the arms embargo was amended, we stepped up support again and this time provided protective gear and protective armoured vehicles. We are seeking a further amendment to increase the pressure on the Assad regime to say that, at this stage, no options are off the table.

Kosovo

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord is, of course, aware of the discussions with Serbia about its aspirations for EU membership. It is not being discussed as a precondition at the moment but, of course, Serbia recognises that stability in the region has to be the way forward in ensuring that every country can make its own individual journey towards further involvement in the EU.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, when the noble Baroness and other Ministers go around Europe steadfastly supporting European enlargement and encouraging other countries to join, as she put it, at the same time as Ministers are talking about the possibility of the UK’s withdrawal from Europe, does it not cause some confusion?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, it certainly does not cause confusion on this side of the House. However, if I can assist noble Lords opposite in the confusion that they may have, of course we believe that a reformed EU—a much more flexible and competitive EU—is better. That message is completely consistent with having an enlarged EU. The noble Lord’s confusion may well be in relation to some of the briefings that he has been getting from his Front Bench.

Iraq: Camp Liberty

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

As my noble friend is aware, the situation in Camp Ashraf and Camp Liberty is in many ways much better than that of residents in Baghdad. For example, electricity is available for 24 hours a day, as opposed to the three hours for which it is available in some parts of Baghdad. About 200 litres of water are available to residents there, when about 90 litres are available in some parts of Baghdad. My noble friend raises the very important issue of the recent death of a resident there. We share those concerns about the death of Behrooz Rahimian and have made inquiries specifically in relation to the medical assistance that he received. We are aware that there is a doctor and medical facilities on site 24 hours a day; there is also the opportunity to receive medical assistance from doctors in Baghdad. We understand that Mr Rahimian was afforded medical assistance in relation to his illness.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the new Parliament in Baghdad will be built to a British design, that UK parliamentarians, including the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, are out there helping to develop democracy and that the development of a democratic Government in Iraq to deal with the kind of issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, is the number one priority and will be supported fully by the British Government?

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with much of what the noble Lord said. He will also be aware that this situation goes back many years. The group that lives in Camp Ashraf and Camp Liberty is an organisation that originally left Iran after the Iranian revolution. Mujaheddin e Khalq, the group that is predominantly part of Camp Ashraf and Camp Liberty, has its own history and record, and we must be incredibly careful about which members of that group we readmit to the United Kingdom.

Participation of Arabs in Public Life

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, that the noble Baroness is really an excellent Minister to answer this Question. However, does the fact that it is for the Department for Communities and Local Government and she is a Foreign Office Minister indicate that there is some difficulty in recruiting people from the Back Benches to serve as Ministers in the House of Lords? Can she explain to the House why there is such difficulty and when we might expect to see some brave men and women step forward to the front line to defend the indefensible?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord clearly does not know me as well as perhaps other noble Lords do. I am a Minister in both the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Communities and Local Government, so I am simply doing my job.

European Council: December Meeting

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I will certainly feed that fact back in. I agree with the noble Lord about less centralisation. Of course we believe in power being nearest to those who are affected by those decisions. However, I think the noble Lord would agree with me that in relation to the European Union, we want a trade area but it is also important to be part of the group that makes the rules in relation to that trade area.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, will the Minister take the opportunity to ask the Prime Minister to raise at the European Council the way in which three private companies—the credit rating agencies based in the United States—have such an undue and malign influence over the economy not just of the United Kingdom but the whole of Europe? I hope she will take some advice from her Treasury colleague on this. It is about time that we took collective action so that we in Europe are not dominated by these American private companies.

[Baroness Warsi]

The EU is engaged in ongoing discussions on work in relation to better regulation of those very institutions.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, I say on behalf of the Opposition that it is very necessary that the Bill should pass. It is more necessary in the light of the deepening of the euro crisis and last week’s European Council meeting, at which the role of the ESM was strengthened in both its ability to recapitalise the banks directly, which is the key to restructuring the banking system, and its ability to buy bonds where countries that are complying with their obligations are under pressure. Therefore, this facilitating measure is very necessary.

My fear about the question of a referendum, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, is that when the Bill goes to the other place, many Back-Benchers who do not share his political views may use the opportunity of the Bill to make the case for holding a referendum on British membership of the European Union very soon. From the Opposition’s perspective, at this moment, this is a complete distraction. It is no answer to the economic problems on which this country should be focusing and no substitute for an effective policy on the European Union.

Those who demand a referendum do not even know what they are asking for a referendum on. They say that they joined a Europe that was in favour of free trade, but even on that question they are not clear about whether they want to take Britain out of the EU, so that we would then face protectionist barriers, or whether we would then be in the European Economic Area, where we would be bound by the rules but would still contribute to the budget. This is a complete distraction because of confusion and we should not go down this road. We want effective action from the Government to protect Britain’s interests in the light of the necessary measures to strengthen the eurozone. However, at the moment, we do not see in Brussels a Government who are engaging with and getting inside the discussions; they want to be outside, which is a disaster for the UK national interest.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Does the Minister recall the Committee stage of the Bill, when we debated several amendments tabled by a diligent Back-Bencher? If he recalls that, and the time that was taken over very careful and correct scrutiny of the Bill, will he confirm that those amendments and many more could have been tabled on Report and at Third Reading? Will he draw to the attention of the Leader of the House that if he and the Government continue in the way that they are, there might not just be one awkward Back-Bencher on one Bill but many awkward Back-Benchers on many Bills?

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, this is a vital measure but a very small and technical one. Throughout Second Reading, Committee and Report, the opposition Front Bench supported it, as did most people around the House. It is now important that it goes through to the House of Commons, where it should pass as speedily as possible, because the eurozone and the broader EU need to get on with solving the crisis.

European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
“(3) That decision is subject to the referendum condition, within the meaning of section 3 of the European Union Act 2011, being satisfied.”

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, as Members of this House will know, the Queen’s Speech was made here on 9 May and the Second Reading of the Bill came rather quickly after it on 23 May. Therefore, a number of Members who have taken a notable interest in the European Union over several years were unable to change engagements that had already been made to be here and participate at Second Reading. I was certainly one of them. However, I read the proceedings on the Bill and there was one speech with which I concur absolutely—that of my noble friend Lord Radice. Everything that he said was what I would have said, although he put it rather more eloquently, lucidly and intellectually than I could have.

Several issues that need to be explored arose from consideration of the Bill at Second Reading. Therefore, I tabled two or three amendments, thinking that they would appear on a long Marshalled List. Imagine my surprise when I found that they were the only amendments to the Bill that had been tabled. I wondered what had happened to the usual suspects, notably the UKIP Members, who are never usually at a loss to table reams of amendments and suggestions, and to participate at great length. This could not be more in the mainstream of some of their thinking. However, not only have they not tabled amendments; they are not even here to participate in the debate. I must say that I find that rather strange.

This first amendment proposes that there should be a referendum on the treaty in the United Kingdom. Let me make it absolutely clear that this is a probing amendment—I do not actually agree with it. I put it in to enable a debate to take place, and to contrast the areas in which there will or will not be a referendum because of the provisions of the European Union Act 2011 on this issue. Under Section 4 of that Act there are 13 instances—and we discussed this during the proceedings on that Bill—where referenda would be necessary. The whole of the electorate would be asked to go out to the ballot boxes to cast a ballot on—let us take Section 4(1)(m)—

“any amendment of any of the provisions specified in subsection (3) that removes or amends the provision enabling a member of the Council, in relation to a draft legislative act, to ensure the suspension of the ordinary legislative procedure”.

If that was to happen, we would have a referendum on it. Can you imagine people flocking to the polling stations to take part in that? Yet we have something in this Bill which is a major and very substantive change—as was said in important speeches by former Chancellors at Second Reading—and there is no provision for a referendum. I am not saying that there should be; I am against referenda on all these things. I want to contrast the fact that we would have referenda on all these minor matters but not on this. It seems strange.

I then looked specifically at the basis on which the Government are arguing that there should not be a referendum. The Minister said at Second Reading that the Foreign Secretary had indicated that,

“in his opinion a referendum is not required to give parliamentary approval. … it does not transfer further competence or power to the European Union from the United Kingdom. The statement was open to judicial review, but in the intervening eight months no one has sought to challenge it in the courts”.—[Official Report, 23/5/12; col. 802.]

I went back to the Act again to find out why he had given this opinion. Section 2(3) says:

“The exemption condition is that the Act providing for the approval of the treaty states that the treaty does not fall within section 4”.

We therefore look at Section 4, “Cases where treaty or Article 48(6) decision attracts a referendum”, which includes the 13 that I mentioned earlier. Then, that section says:

“A treaty … does not fall within this section merely because it involves one or more of the following”,

and the second of the following three is,

“the making of any provision that applies only to member States other than the United Kingdom”.

That would seem to me to be open to argument. The inclusion of “merely” implies that there should be something else—that there should be another factor involved in the decision on whether or not there should be a referendum.

I am, therefore, at a loss to understand why this is the case. I hope that the Minister will try further to explain this to the House, as he did briefly at Second Reading, and to convince us that although a referendum would be necessary in all these 13 tiny little areas it would not be necessary in this particular one. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The European Court proceeds in ways which some of us do not always understand, but it is required to interpret the law. There is no issue with the European financial stability mechanism in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said. When this Bill is passed—I can boldly say when—and the amendment of Article 136 is ratified by all 27 member states, that will be the law, and the Court will interpret it. I do not see how the noble Lord could argue that this political decision, which is immensely valuable to the United Kingdom, could be somehow embroiled in the legal interpretations of the Court. I do not see how it comes into the interpretations of the law as embodied in the treaties.

When we debated the provisions of the EU Bill, as it then was, in this House last year, many Members were concerned that we might be bringing referenda into disrepute by requiring them for small changes to EU treaties and by being explicit about when a referendum was and was not required. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made a proposition that something to do with paper clips, I think it was, could cause a referendum.

I spent a lot of time at this Dispatch Box explaining why we felt the provisions for referenda were not trivial. I explained that one of the reasons the European Union Bill was so long was so that it could be crystal clear about when a referendum was not required, and why issues which appeared small in the schedules to some of your Lordships were in fact the core of red-line considerations involving transfers of competence which we believed were not desirable and would certainly require a referendum.

The way in which the European Union Act 2011 applies to the treaty change we are considering today is clear. The provisions of this decision, amending Article 136 of the TFEU, do not apply to the United Kingdom, so the decision simply does not attract a referendum. What is more, there is no transfer of competence or power from the UK to the EU involved. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart may feel that that is questionable; if that was his determined view and he thought he could mobilise the evidence for it, there would have been an opportunity for a judicial review, but no such review was brought forward.

The amendment to Article 136 simply recognises the ability of eurozone member states to establish a permanent stability mechanism—the European stability mechanism—by means of an intergovernmental agreement. The ESM is established by an agreement. This is not the ESM treaty. This is a treaty merely noting the amendment to the existing treaties, to Article 136.

I have listened very carefully, and I enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for which I am grateful. I hear the views of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—who is a considerable expert on these things—that his party does not stand against this Bill, but believes it will make a contribution. We can have a debate on what sort of contribution it makes to a rapidly changing scene where there are many issues that cannot be resolved at this stage, but holding a referendum on this decision would contradict the clear provisions of the European Union Act 2011. It would introduce confusion about the circumstances in which a referendum would be required in the UK, and that is, to my mind, the reason, above all, why it should be—and, I hope, will be—resisted by your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, while I agree with the Minister that I enjoyed the speech of my noble friend, Lord McAvoy, I can honestly say that it did not contain any words with which I agreed. I was very pleased that my noble friend from the Front Bench gave what might almost be described as a muffled, mild rebuke to my noble friend Lord McAvoy about the importance of loyalty. I think that my noble friend is only too aware of that, because he has managed to follow the party line on many occasions when he did not agree with it, and has been an inspiration to all of us.

I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend—because he is my friend—Lord Stoddart. We are not on the same Benches now, but we were for many years and we agreed on almost everything except Europe. I agreed with everything that my noble friend on the Front Bench said, including his remarks quoting our shadow Foreign Secretary and our party leader on the question of a wider referendum. It would be unnecessary and wasteful. It is not covered in the amendment and not something that I dealt with, but I will say that I agreed with my noble friend completely.

If I had not already intended not to press my amendment, the speeches of the Minister and my noble friend Lord Liddle would have convinced me. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I will not detain the House on this for more than a couple of minutes. As I found out, trying to devise amendments for the Bill is not easy. It is very tightly drawn and cleverly done by the usual draftspersons. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, said in relation to the ESM:

“The intention is that it will replace both the EFSM and EFSF”.—[Official Report, 23/5/12; col. 802.]

I wanted to devise an amendment that would make that clear. It would have said that by agreeing to the ESM we would have replaced the EFSM and the EFSF. However, I was told that that was not competent within the terms of reference of the Bill. I wonder whether the Minister—this is the only point I shall raise on the clause stand part debate—will give an assurance that it is the understanding of Her Majesty’s Government that those two mechanisms will be replaced. There is a tendency in my beloved European Union to keep things going when they are not necessary—actually, there is such a tendency in successive Governments. I hope that we will have a clear assurance on that.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, briefly, I will give a clear assurance that it is our intention to replace the EFSM and the European Financial Stability Facility. That has been the aim all along. The Bill does not do either of those things but merely amends Article 136. However, those intentions were stated absolutely clearly and supported by all members of the European Community. That is what is proposed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

2: Clause 2, page 1, line 14, at beginning insert “Subject to subsection (2A),”

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, it was a wise and appropriate suggestion by the Government to group Amendments 2, 3 and 4 together. Amendment 2 would insert,

“Subject to subsection (2A)”.

New subsection (2A) is proposed in Amendment 4. Amendment 3 changes the date to 1 January 2013—again, in order to enable a debate to take place on that.

The amendment is based on the assumption that the Act can come into effect only if the member states of the eurozone are those that existed when the treaty was agreed. Obviously, as we heard at Second Reading, this raises the question of Greece. If Greece was to have withdrawn or in some other way removed itself, or have been removed, from the eurozone, the treaty would not take effect—or, at least, the Bill would not take effect—and our agreement to the treaty would not take effect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I see some puzzled faces around the Chamber and I think that others agree with me that this is rather wide of the amendment under discussion. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that we are at the Committee stage when we should address directly the amendments concerned.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, has been up on his feet regularly in recent days and weeks keeping colleagues in order, so I know that he is not picking on me in any way. I accept that I had moved just a little wide of the amendment.

I was trying to say that if Greece were no longer a member of the eurozone, having been forced out because of all these speculators, the question would arise whether the treaty should go ahead as originally planned. That is the amendment and that is a valid point. People are concerned that countries such as Greece, Ireland and now Spain, which are in difficulties and suffering, might have to leave the eurozone because of the speculation taking place. If those countries were no longer members of the eurozone, why should a treaty which was drawn up at a time when they were members continue on that basis? I beg to move.

[Lord Brabazon of Tara]

I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, would reconsider his suggestion that Greece might be forced to leave the eurozone purely because of the action of the speculators. Is the real reason why Greece is in trouble not because it has been spending money it does not have, it has been borrowing money that it cannot pay back, and it is basically bust?

--- Later in debate ---

This treaty change is firmly in the UK’s national interests. These amendments risk undermining them and the steps towards financial stability that the eurozone so very badly needs to take, and that is why they should be resisted.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I just want to make two points in reply; first, to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, after his interesting—almost astonishing—intervention about Greece. I do not think I said that the increased interest rates were the only reason that Greece is in difficulties. Although one can of course argue that the Greeks have been living beyond their means, for the past few years pressure has been put on them to get their budget into balance and they have been doing that. However, if at the same time the money that they have to borrow costs them more and more because of higher interest rates, it will make it more and more difficult for them to balance the books and meet their obligations. If the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, had a mortgage on his house and was just managing to survive paying the mortgage at a certain interest rate, he would find it much more difficult if the building society unilaterally doubled or trebled the rate. So I hope that he will accept that, although it is not the only factor, it is an exacerbating factor that makes it more difficult for Greece to balance its books effectively.

I agree very much with what the Minister said about the importance of the stability of the eurozone. That is very, very important, not just from the point of view of the eurozone itself but for us in the United Kingdom. People who foolishly wish the break-up or fragmentation of the eurozone, or the falling-out of any one country, are doing this country—and our economy—a disservice. That is very clear in what President Obama and others have said as well. The continuation and the stability of the eurozone are very important indeed, as the Minister said. Because he argued that my amendments might create some problems in relation to that, and because he argued so powerfully in favour of giving as much stability to the eurozone as possible, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.