Gibraltar

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 3rd April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My noble friend has a long history of professionalism in this as a previous Minister. He is absolutely right.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, the reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, was entirely unsatisfactory. Does the Minister not realise that if Brexit goes ahead there will be not just one land border with the European Union, in Northern Ireland, but two, because Gibraltar will also have a land border with the European Union? Why was that not included in the six-page letter outlining our priorities? Surely, if we have an ex-leader of the Conservative Party pontificating on it, it must be a priority. Why was it not included in the letter?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, it is because we take it so seriously that we did not mention simply one aspect in that letter, which, as the noble Lord will be aware—I am sure he has read it in detail—set out general principles, all of which apply to Gibraltar. We are taking our negotiations very seriously and taking every step along the way the opportunity to consult and reflect with Gibraltar on how the discussions will go ahead. Border issues are of course key to our negotiations.

Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting 2018

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I welcome the idea that my noble friend proposes about how the parliamentarians from overseas may use CHOGM itself. It is important that our colleagues around the Commonwealth—the other 51 countries—are exposed to the views of their own parliamentarians and take note of them but are also exposed to the views of civil society. In my negotiations and my contacts with my colleagues around the Commonwealth, as we talk and consult with them about the agenda, I shall certainly take forward my noble friend’s idea.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the CPA UK executive. Since the Commonwealth consists almost entirely of parliamentary democracies, should not there be much more involvement of Parliaments in CHOGM? There is very little at the moment, and there has been very little. Surely, the fact of it meeting in the United Kingdom provides us with the opportunity to set a very good example.

Outcome of the European Union Referendum

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, although I disagree with almost—no, with every—word he said. He has the unique distinction of having been a Lord even before he came into this House.

As I sat through speech after speech, I was beginning to think that, when I got up, I would be swimming against the tide—not that that is unusual for me, by the way—but once I heard my noble friend Lady Andrews and the noble Lords, Lord Lisvane and Lord Low of Dalston, I knew there were some sensible people whose band I would be joining.

On referenda, I think that David Cameron can be described as the Stan Laurel of British politics. Oliver Hardy would have said, “That’s another fine mess you’ve got us into”. On the Scottish referendum, he conceded to Alex Salmond the date of the referendum. Alex Salmond decided the date, the wording of the question and the franchise. It was a miracle that he did not win that referendum and that he lost it.

David Cameron nearly broke up the United Kingdom with that referendum, and now he is doing worse: he is breaking up the European Union with this referendum, because of his mistakes and because of his complacency. We saw that complacency when he thought it would be an easy win. When we suggested, on the franchise, that 16 and 17 year-olds should have the vote, as they did in the Scottish referendum—in that referendum, they showed that they were sensible, and they were probably more informed than any other voters in that referendum—he rejected it. These are the people who will be most affected by the decision that has been made, yet they were not part of that decision. There would have been nearly 1.5 million extra votes, of whom 82% would have voted remain, according to a poll. That alone would have changed the result of this flawed referendum.

We suggested that European Union citizens living in this United Kingdom should have the vote as well, because they are affected by it. So many people have said that, some expressing real concerns and others, I am afraid, crying crocodile tears for them because they realise the effect of what they have done. European Union citizens should have been given the vote, as we argued, because they are affected by the decision.

We also suggested a threshold. I think someone suggested a super-majority, but I prefer using the word “threshold”. Remember that we had one in the first Scottish referendum in 1979. In that referendum, there was actually a majority in favour of a Scottish Assembly, but because of the George Cunningham amendment—the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, will remember it very well—the majority needed to be 40% of the electorate, and we did not get it. What about this referendum? Do we know how high the figure was? Does anyone know? It was 37.4% of the electorate, so the majority would not have got over the 40% threshold. We took away people’s right to vote in that we did not give it to 16 and 17 year-olds or European Union citizens, and we did not get to the threshold, so there are real question marks over the referendum.

When I tried to intervene—I apologise for trying to interrupt the Leader’s speech yesterday—all I wanted to say was, as has been said by so many people, that this is not an instruction from the British people. It is an advisory referendum, and if people say it is an instruction, they are misleading the public and Parliament. It is not an instruction: we have to take note of it; we are not instructed by it.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

If this referendum is regarded as advisory and the decision is not implemented, what course have the British people got but to take to the streets?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am suggesting that the referendum is advisory, but the British Government should start working on the basis of its result, even though I think it is flawed. I would argue that we should then, for a whole range of reasons, give the British public the opportunity to think again. First, the proposal of the leave campaigners was sold on a false prospectus by that snake oil salesman Boris and barrow boy Farage. They have both gone AWOL. Where are they now? They are not coming forward to try to sort out the mess that they have created.

Secondly, already flaws and problems are beginning to arise. There is already a threatened break-up of the United Kingdom. On Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon is looking at the opportunity to take this referendum as a trigger. On Northern Ireland, think of the problems, with Sinn Fein already talking a united Ireland and the possibility of a border between northern and southern Ireland. On Gibraltar, Spain is talking about shared sovereignty, so no wonder Gibraltar is worried about the future.

Thirdly, the leavers—those who argued the case for leaving—have got no idea of what it involves. They have no idea of the way forward, which means that we have been sold a false prospectus. Some of my remain colleagues, for whom I have the greatest respect, having worked with them for a while, have thrown in the towel. They say, “We are where we are. We’ve got to accept it. We’d better make the best of it”. I think that that is a defeatist attitude. It does not do this place proud, and it does not do the other place proud either.

I have the greatest respect for a number of colleagues, such as the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, my noble friends Lord Hain and Lady Andrews and the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston. As the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, has said outside the House, although not here, once the terms are clear and the negotiations have taken place, we need to give the British people the opportunity to think again. That is not undemocratic or saying that we should forget or abandon the previous referendum, although I have criticised it. We are saying that we should work on the basis of that referendum, and once the terms become clearer, give the British public the opportunity of thinking again. It is our responsibility as parliamentarians—we have that responsibility—to work out how the British public can be given that opportunity, not to join the lemming-like rush into the abyss.

EU: British Nationals Resident Overseas

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, clearly, those who are negotiating the terms of our relationship with the European Union will do that work, with a very firm view about the importance of preserving the rights of British citizens wherever possible. I feel sure that whoever is the next leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister will put first and foremost in his or her mind the importance of bringing the country together and getting the best deal possible. Therefore, I cannot give any details in answer to the first part of the noble Baroness’s question. On the unit that is being set up, the Prime Minister and my noble friend the Leader of the House made it clear yesterday that the brightest and best from across government, but also from outside government, will be brought together to ensure that ground work is done in order that, when there is a new Prime Minister and new Government, the negotiations can go ahead.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, although I agree with the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, will the Minister agree that if we go ahead and withdraw from the European Union, it would be quite wrong for someone who lives, let us say, in the south of France, to continue to be a Member of this House?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I do not think that this House has ever taken action against noble Lords because of the country in which they live. That introduces a new prospect, but it would be a matter for the House and not for the Government.

Commonwealth Countries and Overseas Territories: European Union

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

As is so often the case—perhaps every single time—my noble friend is absolutely right.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

If the Government were to have a meeting in London of representatives from the overseas territories, how would the delegates from St Helena get here?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am always impressed by the ingenuity of those who wish to attend meetings. However, the noble Lord makes a very important point. It is important that the Government continue to look very carefully at securing communications with St Helena, partly because of the implications it has for the St Helenians who live on Ascension Island. He is absolutely right.

European Council

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 21st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the European Union Select Committee of this House has made excellent proposals on that, which this Government have endorsed.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, said, is it not a bit embarrassing for the Minister that this matter is being reported to the House only as a PNQ and not being volunteered by the Government, particularly since one of the four things the Prime Minister is supposed to be arguing is greater powers to national parliaments? Will she remind the Prime Minister, and the Leader of this House, that the Government are responsible to Parliament, and not the other way round?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I have no embarrassment because this Government are responsible to Parliament, and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is making it clear that he will make a Statement in another place. Both Houses will then obviously have an opportunity to comment on it. Perhaps the history books will show that I am wrong but I would be surprised if this House made a Prime Ministerial Statement in recent years when the Prime Minister was not a Member of this House. That would be an unusual step, and one that the Labour Party never took when it was in office. Perhaps the noble Lord will add that to the reforms that the Labour Party proposes for this House—that the Prime Minister can be here, too.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

When the noble Lord is talking about democracy, what does he think of the democracy where a party—the UK Independence Party, say—gets a large percentage of the vote but only one seat in the Parliament? Is that the vibrant democracy that he believes in?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, no, of course not. If the noble Lord would care to read my peroration on this subject on 15 September, he will see that I opined that our first past the post system no longer produces a vibrant democracy in this country. The system which sends Members of Parliament to the House of Commons should be changed. Then one might find that the UK Independence Party would get one or two more seats.

As I was saying, Europhiles still try to frighten us that jobs would be lost if we left the EU. However, we would keep our free trade with the single market because we are its largest client. We have some 3 million jobs selling things to clients there, but it has 4.5 million jobs selling things to its clients here. Our Europhile friends then conveniently forget that only about 9% of our economy goes in trade with the single market, declining and in deficit; some 11% goes to the rest of the world, expanding and in surplus; but 80% stays in our domestic economy. Yet Brussels overregulation strangles all 100% of our economy.

Another Europhile silly one is to point out that we would still have to obey single market rules if we left the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I have the highest respect for my noble friend but I am afraid that on this one he is wrong. In international trade, employers will claim we are at a competitive disadvantage if we do not do things together. This is what Europe is about. That is what Delors pointed out in Bournemouth in 1988.

If we were to say to an employer in Holland, Italy or Spain, “You can lead the race to the bottom”, all the employers, one by one, would scream that they had to go in that direction. I will be calling for a European identity card the way I am going, but if we had a floor for all European workers in all these areas, the comparison with the minimum wage—although we do not have a European minimum wage—would be valid in that all workers and employers would be protected. If noble Lords will allow me to conceptualise, we will have a European ring-fence—let us not start getting into the argument about competition with China or Japan; it is a good argument but quite different from the one we are considering at the moment. This is for the parties in the referendum debate to discuss, and they are valid points to discuss.

Another factor that will determine how Brexit would work would be, no doubt, the majority in the country and the state of agitation on how best to progress matters on the Back Benches of the Conservative Party—and indeed, the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats and everybody else in the House of Commons. To get to the nub of the point for this debate, and maybe to add some value to what I am about to say, we have a difficulty which would have been avoided if we had followed what we called in an earlier debate the OBR-type of authorship because all these amendments look to HMG to produce these studies. How will Ministers avoid the charge of cherry picking, as and when they deal with what are, with good will all round—and there will not be an oversupply of that—difficult analytical distinctions between things that we know and things that are going to be debated?

In conclusion, I will try to answer my own question.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

You are the only one who understands it.