Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Ashton of Hyde

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 8th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I have much sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, although I have some disagreements with it as well, which I will come to. As the noble Lord said, the new charter obligation commits the BBC to extending competition for radio production. It was my understanding that that proposal came directly from the BBC—that it was not, as the noble Lord suggested, imposed on but not necessarily resisted by BBC management. As he said, it may or may not have been rather more than the independent radio producers were expecting or had requested. The Committee would benefit from hearing from the Minister a little about the background to this part of the charter and agreement.

What is clear is that it has been agreed that from April 2017, over a six-year period, the BBC will open up 60% of relevant hours—that is non-news, news-related current affairs or repeats—to competition both from in-house and indie producers. That represents about 27,000 hours of programming per year being open to competition. Although it will not go as far as what is happening in television, it is a further development of the process that began right back in 1992, when the BBC voluntarily made 10% available to independent production. That has developed over a number of years. The 10% voluntary figure was made compulsory, we then saw further developments and eventually the “compete and compare” framework was introduced, designed to drive up standards, reduce costs and ensure continuous improvement in all areas of operation.

Of course, the 60% available for competition does not guarantee the independent sector extra commissions. Independent companies will obviously have to have sufficiently good ideas and be able to demonstrate a track record of producing sufficiently high-quality content. The independent sector, of about 150 relatively small companies spread right across the country, has a growing track record of producing high-quality content and helping to increase the range and diversity of content available to BBC radio services. They produce some great programmes that win awards, and since the guide price for radio production is the same for both in-house and external producers, there is no increase in the production cost to the BBC.

It is good to hear that the independent sector is increasingly involved in training the next generation of producers through training programmes and mentoring schemes, helping to improve diversity: around 60% of learners are women, 15% are from BAME backgrounds, and 5% are people with a disability. But we have to be alert, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, suggested, to the impact these changes may have on the BBC and its own staff. They will certainly need increased levels of training and skills to negotiate, so that they can compete on a level playing field with the independents.

The review that is called for in the amendment is of course sensible, but we question whether it should take place quite as early in the process as recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. The 60% target for competition does not come into full effect until the end of 2022, which should provide the independent sector with plenty of time to develop the scale and expertise to pitch to make more programmes. It also allows time for the BBC to retrain and restructure. But the BBC acknowledges that while greater competition should deliver greater efficiency in programme costs, increasing the number of commissions open to competition threefold will require a larger in-house commissioning team, and there is already a potential impact on other in-house staff. I understand that the BBC is already in discussions with staff and trade unions about that.

It would make sense to have a review, but it should perhaps take place at the midway point between Royal Assent and 31 December 2020. If we are to have such a review, we need to look at some other issues that may form part of it, not least the BBC’s commissioning process, to ensure that the developing competition between in-house and independents is truly fair. However, we support the broad principle of the proposed review.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Foster, for their contributions. I start with something that has nothing to do with this. I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who said that I did not realise quite what was going on with the BBC because I only joined halfway through, that the BBC was debated 19 times before the BBC charter review in various different forms—so it certainly had an outing if not in quite the way that noble Lords might have wished.

Moving on to the amendments in this group, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, concerns the impact of the BBC’s new royal charter on radio production. There has been a lot of misinformation and confusion about this change, so I hope to set the record straight. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, the proposal for change originated from the BBC. It was well received by the Radio Independents Group, which had for a number of years been seeking to have more opportunities to bid for commissions from the BBC. Following negotiations between those two bodies, it was announced by the director of BBC Radio in June 2015. That agreement predated the publication of the BBC Green Paper.

Under the agreement, the BBC agreed to move from the current very limited quota-based arrangements to a new commissioning structure, opening up 60% of eligible hours to competition by 2022. This is a change that we strongly support, since it gives significant new opportunities to the growing independent radio production sector and gives BBC radio audiences access to the best ideas out there. But increasing the competition between independent and in-house productions does not guarantee, as the noble Lord, Lord Foster, reminded us, that the independent sector will receive more commissions. Companies will have to bid for work and BBC in-house staff will still be capable of winning. Unlike TV, there will still be, in effect, an in-house guarantee of 40% of all programmes, which reflects the BBC’s continuing importance to radio.

The new BBC charter sets a firm timescale for the implementation of this change. However, the timescale for the transition—by 2022—was set by the agreement between the BBC and the RIG in June 2015. It has to be for the BBC to consider the transitional arrangements in consultation with the independent production sector and to report on them as appropriate. These are operational matters for the BBC and it is not for us to have to report on them. The BBC already reports on a number of its production and commissioning outcomes across TV and radio and I am sure that it will continue to strive for transparency here. I do, however, acknowledge the concerns that the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Foster, raised about the implications for BBC staff.

The changes are being introduced with a long transition and both the BBC and RIG are taking steps to ensure that the transition is as smooth as possible. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, talked about training. There is a strong ethos of training and diversity in the independent sector. For example, the next RIG offers a training programme that so far has provided training days to 1,089 individual learners, including a diversity mentoring scheme. Of the learners, 60% are women, 15% are BME and 5% are disabled. The RIG encourages its members to recruit from a diverse pool of candidates and also liaises with the BBC’s diversity team. It encourages its members to match the BBC’s employment conditions.

I am sure that both the BBC and the radio industry will pay close attention to the points raised by noble Lords today and take steps to ensure that the transition is handled as sensitively as possible. Fundamentally, though, this is about giving commissioners greater choice and ensuring that listeners have access to the best possible radio shows.

With that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Foster of Bath]

My Lords, clearly there is a lot of agreement about your Lordships’ Communications Committee’s recommendation that we have a new, up-to-date, fit-for-purpose EPG regime, which may also take on board the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. We desperately need it.

Many examples have already been given: the difficulty of finding CBeebies and CBBC under a large number of cartoons; the difficulty of finding the iPlayer or the ITV Player on the first page of an on-demand screen on a smart TV; the difficulty of finding indigenous language channels such as S4C or BBC Alba; and even not being able to find the EPG itself on a smart TV.

There is very clear evidence that EPG positioning really matters. I will give just one example to illustrate it. If you look at the percentage of viewership of CBeebies on Virgin, where it is high up on the EPG, the share is much higher than the viewership of exactly the same programmes on Sky, where it is much lower on the EPG.

However, the real reason for my intervention is simply, as the Minister is about to respond to the debate, to draw his attention to what one of his right honourable friends—the former Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport—said just in 2011:

“Position on the EPG will probably be the Government’s single most important lever in protecting our tradition of public service broadcasting”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/9/11; col. 543.]


When the Minister responds, I hope he will bear in mind what his right honourable friend said.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who contributed to the debate. I have to warn the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, that despite his very kind remarks I may not be so amenable. My speech may contain some upsetting content—we broadcasters have to issue warnings.

Amendment 226A would extend the prominence provisions that currently exist for linear channels to on-demand electronic programme services, which are the lists of on-demand services available for selection on television interfaces. This issue was debated at length in the other place, although I note that this amendment goes further in integrating new provisions into the existing statutory framework for both EPGs and the PSB prominence regime. But I believe that the key issue remains as it was.

The Minister reassured Members in the other place then—and I reassure the Committee today—that the Government gave this issue considerable thought during last year’s balance of payments consultation, the response to which was published in August last year. Our conclusion was—and we remain of the view—that we have not seen compelling evidence of harm to PSBs to date. Creating a new regulatory regime that defines the user interfaces or submenus that should be caught, particularly in a fast-moving technological landscape, is likely to be complex. At the time of consultation, Ministers were not convinced of the benefit of regulation that might extend to, for instance, smart TV manufacturers’ user interfaces, which are developed with a global market in mind. We therefore decided not to extend the EPG prominence regime for PSBs to on-demand.

When PSBs make excellent content, generally audiences will find that content. This is true of both catch-up and live content. For example, the BBC’s award-winning children’s services are much viewed by children throughout the UK. We do not believe that further protections are necessary to ensure that children find these services. A recurring theme in the debates on the Bill has been how much more competent children are than many adults in the digital world.

Furthermore, acting in this area is extremely complicated and the fact that the amendment spans more than a page demonstrates some of the difficulties inherent in legislating in this area. The technological landscape is shifting quickly and, with it, the business models of those who seek to cater to changing audience tastes. Detailed regulations about how exactly audiences need to be guided through menus cannot be the answer here. Regulations would be outdated as soon as they came into force.

Moreover, this amendment would give prominence to the PSBs’ on-demand programme services, which include not only the PSB content of the commercial PSBs, but also content originating from their non- PSB channels. If the intention was to put on-demand EPG prominence on the same footing as linear EPG prominence, this amendment goes far beyond what we have in place for linear TV. It is therefore, in our view, not justifiable.

With that explanation—and I appreciate that the noble Lord may not be happy—I hope that tonight he will withdraw his amendment.

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Ashton of Hyde

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 31st January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I have been a Member of your Lordships’ House for just 14 months, so I am relatively new. That probably explains my confusion as to what exactly happened to the previous string of amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response to them, even though they appear to have been withdrawn at a later stage—but I am sure it is all very simple.

Another surprise is that I never thought I would hear a debate in which a spokesman on the Front Bench, in this case the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, would appear to be singing the tune of the Country Landowners’ Association. I say openly to the Minister that, on these Benches, we are broadly supportive of the new Electronic Communications Code. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, is absolutely right to ask a number of questions about some of the details of it, and concerns have been raised about some aspects by a number of organisations. However, we believe it is vital that the new code is brought in quickly, because we want to see an expansion of the infrastructure that will enable us to deliver the increased connectivity that this country desperately needs.

I do not want to go through all the amendments in this group in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, did. We look forward to the Minister going through them—and the previous ones—in a few minutes. However, I want to pick up one amendment. It is probably the one that has most surprised me—the lead amendment in this group, Amendment 26. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, acknowledged that this was a probing amendment. But, at the same time, he made it fairly clear that he was quite supportive of what was contained within it.

On these Benches, we believe that independent wireless infrastructure providers have benefited this country enormously by investing in the development of alternative structures—water towers, pylons and so on—to make them some of the most productive telecommunications facilities in the country and improve connectivity, not least in rural areas. Our real concern about Amendment 26 is that, if accepted, it could alter investment planning by independent infrastructure providers in a way that would curtail much of the development we want to see.

I believe the issue raised in Amendment 26 was adequately addressed in a letter that the Minister sent to many of us some time ago. For the benefit of Members who do not have the letter in front of them, he said:

“Code rights can only be obtained to install apparatus on, under or over land. Where operators have invested significantly in the physical apparatus that underpins coverage they should be able to achieve appropriate commercial returns. Alternative structures that have been adapted for the purpose of delivering network coverage are essential to connectivity and there will be cases where code rights do not apply”.


He said that questions had been asked,

“about whether code rights apply to various structures such as church steeples and water towers”—

and so on. But he goes on to make it very clear when he states:

“Whether a water tower has been adapted to the extent to which it can be considered to be electronic communications apparatus will depend on the specific circumstances of the adaptation … We have established a clear and robust legal framework within which parties can resolve matters by agreement and if necessary apply to courts to resolve any disagreements”.


That is very clear—we want to protect these sorts of developments because we do not want to attack the investment that we hope will be made in the future.

That position is exactly the same as the one taken by the Labour Party Front Bench when this issue was debated in another place. Louise Haigh said:

“We would also like to explore what consideration has been given to how we can ensure that independently-owned infrastructure can have a significant role in the sector and, if possible, make up a larger proportion of our infrastructure in line with the global market. The much-discussed difficulties of the broadband roll-out highlight the issues when infrastructure is owned by a private monopoly. We should seek to break up this market as much as possible. For that to happen, investment incentives for independent infrastructure need to be maintained”.—[Official Report, Commons, Digital Economy Bill Committee, 20/10/16; col. 165.]


I entirely agree with the Front Bench of the Labour Party in another place on this issue—but I confess that I am concerned and confused by the Labour Party Front Bench in this House. I look forward to hearing where the Minister stands on this.

Perhaps I may give the Minister notice that, having said that we are very supportive, on the next group of amendments we may have a slight disagreement—but we will have that debate a little later this evening.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I can clear up one thing for the noble Lord. I have not been in this House much longer than he has but I was in the Whips’ Office for two years and I have a vague understanding of what is going on. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, obviously missed my thrilling answer on the last group but I responded to it and the House resumed before the Deputy Chairman called the amendment. Therefore, the amendments in that group were dealt with and we resumed the Committee stage of the Bill with the Front Bench withdrawing their amendment. That got us back to where we should be, which is with this group. Therefore, I think that everything is in order.

Amendment 26 seeks to alter the definition of electronic communications apparatus. I too was rather surprised by some of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said. I shall try to explain where we are on this subject, although I think that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, made my case for me. This is a fairly interesting proposal. I will take a look at what the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said in the cold light of day and we will obviously have discussions about it if necessary. I accept that he has made a long case, but I cannot answer it in complete detail today.

We have had many meetings with noble Lords on this subject and we have discussed whether various edifices such as water towers are apparatus. The Government are clear that the code should not interfere with incentives to invest in infrastructure. The reformed code makes a clear distinction between land and apparatus, and an operator cannot exercise code rights against another’s infrastructure. A building used solely for enclosing apparatus is appropriately defined as apparatus. This might include a small brick-built cabin that was part of a site. Permitting operators to secure compulsory access to such a building could encourage one operator to exploit another’s existing investments, and this would naturally create disincentives for future investments in digital communications infrastructure. Here, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foster.

Equally, a range of structures are adapted for use in providing a digital communications network. Whether a structure has been adapted so as to make the entire structure “apparatus”—rather than only part or none of it—is a question of fact and degree, having regard to what the parties have agreed, the nature of the installation and the extent of the adaption, as outlined in my letter. These are fact-sensitive questions that should be the proper subject of agreements and, if necessary, determination by the courts or tribunals. As such, I do not consider the amendment to be appropriate or necessary.

Amendment 29 seeks to do two things. It would ensure, first, that the assignor remains liable to the landowner and, secondly, that the assignee does not have the benefit of the assignment unless the landowner is given notice of it. We want to ensure flexibility for operators and continuity of service for consumers when companies go through mergers or restructuring. This amendment would frustrate that objective, which was based on the Law Commission’s recommendation that code agreements can be freely assigned. Further, the additional protection the amendment seeks to give the landowner is unnecessary: if no notice of assignment is given, the current drafting means that both the assignor and the assignee are liable to the landowner under the terms of the agreement, which is a substantial protection.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I start with the noble Lord’s test of which of the two should be registered. The answer is none because we do not think we should have registration of these rights. However, I accept that there are many issues about the Law Commission, which I will investigate and come back to him because I do not have all the answers at the moment. I am not by that guaranteeing that we will accept the amendment but I accept that he has made some points that deserve a closer look before Report.

The amendment proposes to include a requirement for code agreements to be notified to the Land Registry. The noble Lord will not be surprised to know that we have not changed our opinion on this. We held a consultation on the code in February 2015 and one of the issues consulted on was land registration. We concluded then that code rights should not be subject to a requirement that they are registered. This reflects the position under the existing code, which the noble Lord mentioned, which has worked effectively since 1984 and avoids creating unnecessary administrative burden.

When buying land it is usual to inspect the physical property and to make inquiries before contract to establish what burdens may be on the land that are not registered rights. These include standard checks by purchasers and conveyancers which should identify whether there are any existing code rights over the property, in the same way that when a property is bought in other circumstances the onus is on the seller to inform, and that becomes part of the contract.

However, as I have said, I accept that the noble Lord has made extra points about the Law Commission and so, on the basis that I will look at those before Report, I hope he will be able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I am grateful to the Minister for his helpful reply that he will look at the matter further. With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Gambling: Young People

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Ashton of Hyde

Thursday 12th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I cannot confirm today that it is part of the gambling review because that has already been started. However, one of the three core licensing objectives is to protect people who are vulnerable from gambling-related harm.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, the Gambling Commission report clearly shows that in just one week a staggering 32,000 11 to 15 year-olds entered betting shops, many of them playing on highly addictive fixed-odds betting terminals. Does that not show wholly inadequate levels of supervision in betting shops and their failure to meet the licensing objective of protecting the vulnerable from harm? What action are the Government going to take or recommend that the Gambling Commission takes?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I cannot say now because the gambling review is looking at just that matter. The point of the review is to look at these things and provide recommendations. The call for evidence has just been completed, and we will be consulting on that call for evidence soon.

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Ashton of Hyde

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, I quite agree—that is why I mentioned that Ofcom will provide technical details and advise on latency, upload, download and average speeds. The consultation paper is, I think, coming out at any minute.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Janke and Lady Byford, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked whether there should be a social tariff in addition to the USO. Ofcom is reporting on possible approaches for a USO; the report will include consideration of measures to take account of those for whom affordability is an issue.

The Electronic Communications Code and infrastructure and apparatus and things like that were mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Foster, Lord Aberdare, Lord Gordon and Lord Clement-Jones. In the interests of time, I am going to duck the interesting discussions of when a water tower is a communications mast and when it is apparatus. We will deal with those things a lot in Committee.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, was concerned about the new land valuation model in the ECC. We have consulted widely on this and employed experts to allow government to strike the right balance between landowner rights and the need for better digital communications. We expect the parties to negotiate a fair outcome. The code valuation applies only when parties cannot agree terms.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked whether there should be a public record for when rights are granted over land under the ECC. The Law Commission considered this as part of its review of the code; the Government consulted on the issues subsequently and concluded that code operators should not be required to register their rights. This maintains the position under the existing code, but prospective buyers will be able to ascertain what code rights might apply to land by inspecting the land and making appropriate inquiries before the contract.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Aberdare, Lord Clement-Jones, and others, talked about the change in the appeals mechanism for Ofcom. I have spent many happy hours in your Lordships’ House talking about the extent of judicial review and its applicability. We think that there is a wide consensus that reform is needed, and the Government believe that judicial review is the right remedy. Direct comparisons to other regulated sectors are helpful but, for example, where one sector has a full “on the merits” appeal, there is another example showing the opposite. This is because every regulatory regime is quite different from the next. Communications is currently the most litigated sector, and it is holding up reforms and investment and delaying consumer benefits. That is why we are forced to act—but I accept that we will probably spend some time on this issue in Committee.

Another thing that we might talk about, which was mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Mitchell and Lord Clement-Jones, was the position of Openreach. A number of noble Lords suggested that the way in which to reach a competitive and effective market in telecommunications is through the structural separation of Openreach from BT Group. Ofcom is the independent regulator for the sector and there is a process available for it to pursue structural separation, should it consider that necessary. We have made it clear that Ofcom should take whatever action it considers necessary and that structural separation remains an option.

Several noble Lords mentioned digital exclusion and digital skills. The Bill provides for free training for adults in basic digital skills, which was mentioned by many noble Lords. We have set up the Council for Digital Inclusion, which brings together leaders from business, charities and government to come up with innovative ways to help get everyone online. Some people cannot use online services independently. The Government Digital Service works with services to ensure that those people get the support that they need. More than £9.5 million has been spent by the DfE and the NHS since October 2014 to support almost 750,000 people to gain basic digital skills. The DfE will be investing a further £1.5 million in the remainder of this year to support 100,000 more.

My noble friend Lord Baker made an interesting speech, echoed to a certain extent by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, about the digital revolution, skills and employment. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, mentioned this as well. We are establishing 15 routes to a technical education post-16, including engineering and manufacturing, digital health and construction. Students will be able to learn through an employment-based route—apprenticeships—or a college-based one that will ensure they can progress into employment or further study. For pre-16s, we will continue to equip schools to embed a knowledge-based curriculum as the cornerstone of an excellent academically rigorous education. We will continue to embed reforms to assessment and qualifications, including more robust and rigorous GCSEs, and the ambition that at least 90% of pupils in mainstream education enter GCSEs in maths and science. In 2016, 62,100 pupils entered for a computer science qualification, up from 33,500 in 2015.

Many noble Lords—the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe, Lady Kidron and Lady Benjamin, the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson, Lord Storey, Lord Gordon, Lord Whitty and Lord Morrow, the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and there may have been others—talked about and approved of the age-verification regime, at least to a certain extent. The Bill delivers on the manifesto commitment but there is always more to do and we think that is possible. I look forward to debating this in Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked what oversight there will be of the BBFC to ensure that these powers are used responsibly. We are pleased that we are working with the BBFC; it has a strong track record as an independent regulator. We recognise that age verification brings challenges and we must provide the regulator with the framework to succeed. We are already working closely with it to implement this ambitious policy and it is not the case that the Government’s role will then be finalised. The Bill provides for the designation of funding of the regulator by the Secretary of State, who must be satisfied, for instance, that arrangements for appeals are being maintained. In the case of blocking, the regulator must inform the Secretary of State whenever it intends to notify an ISP.

The right reverend Prelate, the noble Baronesses, Lady Kidron and Lady Benjamin, and the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, asked a valid question about social media and Twitter. The Government believe that services, including Twitter, can be classified by regulators as ancillary service providers where they are enabling or facilitating the making available of pornographic or prohibited material. This means that they could be notified of commercial pornographers to whom they provide a service but this will not apply to material provided on a non-commercial basis.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked some very detailed questions about net neutrality and family filters which I am not going to answer today. First, I will read carefully what she said and will certainly write to her. We believe that family filters that can be turned off are permitted under EU regulation. To support providers, and for the avoidance of doubt, we will amend the Bill to confirm that providers may offer such filters. This will ensure that the current successful self-regulatory approach to family filters can continue.

ISPs are best placed to know what their customers want and we do not intend to lay down mandatory rules for family-filter provision. The current approach works well, engaging parents to think about online safety, but applying filters where parents do not engage. As far as public wi-fi is concerned, we believe that filters on many types of public wi-fi are likely to be compliant with EU regulation. Coffee shops, hotels and restaurants, for example, where the end-user is the proprietor, can turn filters on and off. I am afraid that noble Lords may not be surprised to hear that we do not think it is right to share legal advice on these matters.

There will be a lot of discussion on prohibited material in Committee. It is a complicated area. Free speech is vital but we must protect children from harm online as well as offline. We must do more to ensure that children cannot easily access sexual content which will distress them or harm their development, as has been mentioned. We do not allow children to buy pornographic material offline, and this material would not be classified for hard-copy distribution. The BBFC has a well-understood harm test and would not classify material that, for example, depicts non-consensual violent abuse against women, and it may not classify material which is in breach of the Obscene Publications Act, as clarified in guidance by the CPS. Prohibited material has always been within the regulatory framework of this Bill. We consider that having a lesser regime for prohibited material than lawful material would be unsustainable and undermine the age-verification regime. As I say, I am sure we will come back to this in Committee.

An important point was made with regard to sexual content and the need to look at sex education. We have taken steps to raise awareness of the risk to young people of exposure to harmful content online. E-safety is now covered at all key stages in the new computing curriculum, which was taught for the first time in September 2014. The Government agree that we need to look again at the case for further action on personal, social, health and economic education and sex education provision as a matter of priority, with particular consideration being given to improving quality and accessibility. We are carefully considering the request to update existing sex and relationship guidance.

Many have asked for the intellectual property reforms in the Bill for many years. We need to ensure that valuable assets are protected. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe has been working hard to ensure that that is the case. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Grade, the noble Lords, Lord Storey and Lord Macdonald, and my noble friend Lady Wilcox, who supported the Section 73 appeal. My noble friend Lady Wilcox asked what else we are doing to protect IP rights online. The Government’s strategy for IP enforcement published earlier this year, Protecting Creativity, Supporting Innovation: IP Enforcement 2020, outlines the breadth of activity the Government are taking to tackle IP infringement of all types online.

As regards the remuneration issue from the abolition of Section 73, the Government are not seeking to set any retransmission fee arrangements. These will be negotiated in the context of the existing “must offer/must carry” regulatory framework. This will mean there is likely to be some, albeit limited, value extracted in any future negotiations between public service broadcasters and Virgin Media. Coming to the—

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way as it is late but this is a very important issue. I would be grateful for greater clarification of the Government’s position, bearing in mind that it was only in July of this year that, in responding to the balance of payments consultation, the Government said:

“Government therefore expects that there will continue to be no net payments between all platform operators and the PSBs”.

Has the Government’s position now changed?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We think it should be left to the market to decide that. My noble friend Lord Grade and the noble Lords, Lord Foster, Lord Storey and Lord Macdonald, and probably others talked about the length of the transitional arrangements, and basically said that we should get on with it. The Intellectual Property Office has recently consulted on this, as is right and proper. The Government are considering the responses received and we will state our intentions on how this reform will be implemented shortly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, asked about counterfeit electrical goods. The Government have committed in their recent IP enforcement strategy to develop a methodology for assessing the availability of and harm caused by counterfeits, which will of course include counterfeit electrical goods. Government officials regularly meet with major online retailers to help reduce the availability of counterfeits on their platforms and to help co-ordinate efforts with law enforcement to take action against sellers. In addition, as required by EU law, most online platforms already have routes to allow suspected IP-infringing content to be reported and promptly removed.

Data sharing is an important part of the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, expressed concern about bulk data sharing. Under the powers, data sharing must comply with the Data Protection Act. Information can be shared only for the specific purposes set out in the Bill, and only the minimum data required to achieve these purposes will be shared—a point reinforced in our draft codes of practice.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, asked whether data would be shared without consent. Where possible, consent will be sought, but this is not always possible. These new powers are to allow government to reach out and help. We have given examples of reaching out to the fuel poor and to the vulnerable so that help and support can be offered rather than sought. These people may not have consented to data sharing, but that is partly because we often never know when we might need to help in future. We will, where appropriate, conduct privacy assessments and publish them, and we will always protect personal data under the Data Protection Act.

Several noble Lords raised the question of health data. As noble Lords appreciate, health data are of great value to research, as they address multiple complex issues that affect individuals, households and other purposes. However, great sensitivities are involved in how this is handled, which is why we are excluding the use of health and adult social care data from our powers until the recommendations of the National Data Guardian’s review have been implemented and public confidence in the way the health and care system uses confidential personal data can be demonstrated. I should mention that the Government support Jo Churchill MP’s Bill on the National Data Guardian, which has its Second Reading on Friday.

The BBC is an important part of the Bill and we have debated this as part of official business 18 times since last June—and I suspect we may do so again. When we scrutinised the new charter on 12 October, there was a consensus that enormous progress had been made. The charter has now been approved by Her Majesty the Queen and will soon be in force. The noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Stevenson, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, talked about the budget deal last year. This was part of a negotiation with the BBC that is complete. The BBC said only two weeks ago that,

“the overall funding settlement reached with the government provides the financial stability for a strong creative BBC”.

The BBC is clear that reopening the settlement would just create uncertainty and potentially leave it worse off.

With regard to the future process, let me be clear. The charter, for the first time, sets the timing for the BBC’s future financial settlements at once every five years. The charter also requires the BBC to provide data ahead of each licence fee settlement. The BBC will be able to use this to make its case, and the Government of the day will be able to consider that.

The noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Foster, mentioned the National Citizen Service charter. I agree that that was a royal charter and that it had a Bill, but we think that is different. I could go into the reasons, but undoubtedly we will talk about that in Committee, so I will not do so at this time.

Gambling

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Ashton of Hyde

Thursday 20th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, perhaps I ought to point out to the noble Lord the position on the triennial review. The Gambling Act was introduced by the Labour Government in 2005 and in the following five years no triennial review was held by the Labour Government. The coalition Government held a triennial review in 2013, and the Conservative Government will hold a triennial review in 2016.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, fixed-odds betting terminals blight lives, lead to crime and damage local economies. As far back as 2005, the current Prime Minister expressed her deep concern about the harm that fixed-odds betting terminals had caused, and yet so far the Government have taken no action. As we have heard, the triennial review is already way behind schedule. Can the Minister say, in particular, when the Government will respond to the appeal by Newham Council and 93 other councils which want to be able to reduce the stake on FOBTs? That response from the Government was due by the summer but we still have not had it. When will we receive it?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord was listening to what I said before. The last triennial review was held in 2013 and the next one will be held in 2016. As regards Newham Council’s application under the Sustainable Communities Act, it is true that the second response—we have responded once—was due in July, so it is some months overdue. The best place to review the evidence in that appeal, which was about reducing the stakes on FOBTs—I accept that problems can be caused by those; I do not doubt that—will be in the forthcoming triennial review, which will call for evidence on these subjects.