Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Falconer of Thoroton Excerpts

Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I will act immediately on the words of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and respond briefly to what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friend Lady Berger said. Basically, they are referring to the problem of people who lack capacity and who have had their liberty deprived because their lack of capacity is so severe that they cannot be trusted to be free. That normally takes place in the setting of a hospital or a care home, but it can also take place in the setting of a private home; that is where the Cheshire East cases come into play.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said that this should be a yellow flag. If your lack of capacity is so serious that your liberty is taken away, it indicates that something is seriously wrong. The principle of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 is that capacity should be looked at on a case-by-case basis. There will be cases where someone’s liberty is taken away where they would not necessarily lack capacity in relation to very serious issues.

I should have declared this before. Apart from my receiving money from Mr Bernard Lewis to pay for an assistant and having Dignity in Dying pay for the publication of some printing that went to Peers, my wife was, until very recently, a designated family judge and sat in the Court of Protection. I should disclose that.

Among the sorts of case that come before the courts —they will come before the courts, not a local authority—are those of people who desperately do not want to leave their home. Eventually, they will have to have an order from the Court of Protection, meaning that they have to leave; this is sometimes accompanied by a deprivation of liberty order. Many of those people, even though they are moved somewhere else, would still have the capacity to make a decision in relation to assisted dying.

How do we deal with the perfectly legitimate points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay? I have had the opportunity to discuss this with the noble Baroness; I thank her for that. The answer is that there should be some form of enhanced protection to deal with what she says is a yellow flag. I suggest to the Committee that I speak to those Peers who are interested—including my noble friend Lady Berger and the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, who sadly cannot be here today—to see what form that enhanced protection could take.

I hope that in the light of what I have indicated, we can move on to the next amendment.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to comment on this group in response to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has just said.

In its recent briefing for Peers, the Royal College of Psychiatrists gave its view:

“Assessors should be required to take all practicable steps to work with professionals involved in a person’s health and social care, and to talk to a relative, carer or nominated friend, including by accessing medical notes from both primary and secondary care”.


It expressed concern that

“a consideration of suicide protection duties are being bypassed by the Bill in its current form”

due to unmet need not being formally assessed. A previous DoLS is relevant to consideration of current capacity to decide to end one’s life. What would be the mechanism for reliably ensuring information that there has been a DoLS before it gets to the assessors and the panel?

Having mentioned the Royal College of Psychiatrists, I would like to make a short statement. The college has asked me to respond to the allegations about its leadership made by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, on 14 November, our first day in Committee. The president of the college, Dr Lade Smith, wrote to the noble Baroness asking her to withdraw her allegations, as they are inaccurate. But although the noble Baroness was present in the Chamber the following week, no clarification was provided. As a past president myself, I beg leave to set the record straight.

The college’s recommendations on the Bill are, in fact, based on 18 months’ consideration by a cross-college working group involving membership surveys, debate with members on proposals before other jurisdictions, and discussions with colleagues in other jurisdictions where assisted dying is practised. The president is clear that Dr Annabel Price, the appointed college lead for the Bill, has accurately represented its views when giving formal evidence to both Houses. With the Bill before the Lords, the Royal College of Psychiatrists is focusing on how to make it safer for people with mental health needs and learning disability needs, and better aligned with the responsibilities of psychiatrists. I feel that, in the light of the discussion on DoLS, this is an appropriate statement to make.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and feel that this would probably be a very appropriate point to move on to my noble and learned friend.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will just pick up what the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, is saying. I think he is saying that the Act has been updated over the years and that people have taken account of improvements. He is absolutely right; from my own knowledge of the working of the Act, he makes an absolutely valid point.

I repeat what I said earlier—that we need to discuss this. I will deal with the interventions after I have given my response.

First, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, is right in identifying the risks that arise. That is why I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is right that we need to build in some form of enhanced protection.

As far as the intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, is concerned, this amendment is limited to DoLS under the Mental Capacity Act; it does not include any exercise of the inherent jurisdiction of the courts on somebody whose liberty has been taken away. The noble Baroness is very welcome to come and discuss that with us, and I will give her notice of any meeting that we have.

As far as the noble Lord, Lord Harper, is concerned, how one provides effective protection depends first on the discussions that take place. I would envisage tabling an amendment on this or maybe agreeing that somebody else tables one. I cannot tell noble Lords the extent to which it will involve the Minister having powers, but it is something that we will discuss.

The points that the Minister, my noble friend Lady Merron, made about discrimination relate to people who have had a deprivation of liberty order in the past, or even those who have one now, who will be excluded altogether from the right to assisted dying. The nature of the Mental Capacity Act is that this should be done on a case-by-case basis. I am proposing that we discuss how to provide enhanced protection rather than excluding.

In the light of what I have said, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Baroness, Baroness Berger, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley, feel able to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that a court is unlikely to interfere with important social and economic policy that has been decided by Parliament. That rather reinforces the point that I made about why it is important that these protections are included in the legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have contributed to this discussion. I made it clear at the beginning that I was probing. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for pointing out that one of the difficulties for assessors is in knowing how reliable the information that they can access is. It seems that we need a way to make sure that people who could be particularly at risk have an enhanced level of assessment for the protections relevant to them.

I am sorry; should I not be speaking now?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I apologise to the noble Baroness. I was being told by the Whips that my noble friend Lady Berger has to withdraw her amendment first. I apologise for the discourtesy.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

That is fine; I was hoping to sum up, and then I would willingly hand over to the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, to withdraw the amendment. I think that we need to make sure that the face of the Bill makes it clear that there is a level of particularly enhanced assessment for several groups of people—this will be only one group—who are, for whatever reason, particularly vulnerable. I hope that the number of meetings that we have will include everybody who has a concern over this, going forward to Report stage. It is of concern that the code of practice for the Mental Capacity Act has still not finished being updated. I hope that we will see an updated version next year, because the one currently in place is, in some ways, a little bit out of date, given the modern world we live in. With all that, if the noble Baroness would like to withdraw her amendment, I will be delighted to withdraw mine.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. As I have said, I will keep my comments limited to the amendments on which the Government have major legal, technical or operational workability concerns.

On Amendments 17 and 309A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beith, and introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, Amendment 17 is a probing amendment that seeks to establish whether people who are registered with a GP in Scotland but live in England would be excluded from eligibility for an assisted death under the Bill. Noble Lords may wish to note that Amendment 17 would have limited effect as it amends only Clause 1, which is largely descriptive. Without further amendments to Clauses 10 and 17, which contain duties to assess eligibility criteria, Amendment 17 would not impact those criteria and would introduce conflicting provisions.

Amendment 309A would amend the corresponding eligibility criteria in Clause 10 to include a person registered as a patient with a general medical practice in England, Wales or Scotland. It would not amend Clause 17, which contains the assessment by the panel. Therefore, Amendments 17 and 309A would require further consequential amendments to ensure that the Bill is coherent. This would include amendments to ensure that data recording obligations and the associated criminal offences apply to Scottish GPs. These consequential amendments would likely require consultation with the Scottish Government, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, referred to, in line with the guidance for Private Members’ Bills.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, for tabling Amendment 62. The purpose of this amendment is to establish why the Bill requires only the actions set out in Clauses 10 and 11 to be undertaken by people in England or Wales, and not the preliminary discussion under Clause 5. Our understanding is that the reference to the preliminary discussion in Clause 5 is not mentioned in Clause 1(3) because Clause 5(3) already requires that a person wanting to have a preliminary discussion must be in England and Wales. Amendment 62 would require steps under Clauses 8 and 19 to be taken by persons in England or Wales. As drafted, the Bill requires that most of the steps in Clauses 8, 10, 11 and 19 will already have to take place in England and Wales.

In addition, Amendment 62 would have the effect that, when the Secretary of State makes regulations under Clause 19, the Secretary of State must be in England and Wales at the moment they sign the regulations. This could lead to the regulations being improperly made and challenged should the Secretary of State not physically be in England or Wales at the time of signing the regulations. This raises a practical issue of workability, as I am sure the noble Baroness understands.

On the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser, and the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, relating to Scotland and guidance that the Government have provided to the sponsor, as I am sure noble Lords will understand, and I have reiterated, we are providing technical and workability support to the sponsor on devolution issues, including those that have been raised. This is an evolving situation that will continue throughout the passage of the Bill.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am grateful to everybody who has taken part in this short debate. I pay particular tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, who discussed the issues with me yesterday and was incredibly clear in the way that she raised them today. She also raised the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Beith.

I will deal with three issues: first, where the GP practice has to be to satisfy the eligibility requirements; secondly, whether the Clause 5 conversation has to take place with an England and Wales GP, or whether it can take place with a Scottish GP; and thirdly, how we will deal with the clashes between Scotland and England. I am aware, because the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, told me about it, of the deposit return scheme and how that went wrong. I am conscious of that as an issue.

First, the noble Lord, Lord Beith, asks with his amendment whether the GP to whom you have to be a member of the practice can be in Scotland. The answer is no under the Bill at the moment. The Bill is clear that you have to be in a GP’s practice in England or Wales. Everybody has said to me that it is perfectly normal for a person living in England in the border areas to have a GP in Scotland, and asked why cannot we change the Bill to say that your GP could be in Scotland, because that reflects how people actually live.

I am sympathetic to that, but the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, legitimately points out that, if that happened, I would need to make various other changes. For example—and the noble Baroness made this point—under Clause 7, where there is a preliminary discussion it has to be sent to the GP, and the GP has to keep a proper record of it. How can I enforce that unless I expand the provisions of the Bill to allow Scottish enforcement, for which I would need Scottish agreement? My view in relation to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beith, is: let us see whether we can make it work, but it will require discussions with Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 26 in this group. It is important to remember that Clause 1(1)(d) of the Bill simply states

“is registered as a patient with a general medical practice in England or Wales”.

It does not require anything more than that. I will explain why I have tabled an amendment looking at a home visit, because, as my noble friend Lady Gerada has said, patients will be looked after by many different members of a primary care team but will be legally listed and registered with the named GP, because that is how the funding flows to the practice for care delivery. We must not confuse the two, and the notes held in the practice are important.

The person may actually be receiving most of their care in secondary or tertiary care, as the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, has pointed out, but if this qualifying condition is to have any meaning, there must be substance in it, with a clinical record that can be drawn down in assessment. That does not mean that the GP has to have anything to do with providing an assisted death, but it seems sensible that the clinical record, which will have the record from previous GP practices if the patient moves, can be drawn down.

Data suggests there has been a fall in home visit rates over time. Most home visits undertaken by primary care team members are indeed to people who are seriously ill. The data shows that in October 2025 there were over 462 home visits by GPs, which comprised about 1.7% of all face-to-face consultations registered by a practice that month, or 1.1% of all contacts. While that percentage may seem low, particularly as care moves into the community, it is important to remember that the pressures on primary care teams have increased, with more listed patients per GP and more complexity. In addition, there is less continuity of care, with patients often seen by several different doctors in a practice, and different members of the team. During a hospital stay, patients are likely to encounter, on average, 18 to 27 different healthcare professionals. All those conversations and details should be entered in the hospital record, but they may not be well entered, and the information sent to the GP after admission may be a rather simplistic summary about more of the physical aspects but not necessarily psychosocial details that may be recorded somewhere in the depth of a hospital record.

Why does all this matter? It is because the living conditions and atmosphere in a home reveal an enormous amount about pressures and influences on a person who is ill in a way that is never ascertained in the consulting room. The well-groomed patient’s home can reveal overcrowding and poverty, where others in the household are dismissive or even verbally abusive in front of the healthcare professionals who visit. For most patients, a home visit can allow the person the confidence on their own territory to talk about their hopes and fears in depth, and about why they seek an assisted death. They are not intimidated by the hospital or GP venue, knowing that other patients are waiting outside and aware that others may notice that they have been crying when they leave through a crowded waiting room.

In evidence to the Select Committee, we heard from the Royal College of General Practitioners, of which I declare I am a fellow, that any assisted dying service should be seen as a stand-alone, specialised service that GPs and other healthcare professionals may opt in to provide. They stated that it is neither appropriate nor practical for this to be deemed core GP work, and they do not want any blurring of lines with the palliative care that they provide, which has already been described by my noble friend Lady Gerada. That position was confirmed in a motion at the RCGP Council last week. The GPs were clear in evidence to the Select Committee that they have no spare capacity in the working day to take on additional duties related to providing an assisted death. For some, a lifetime of 10-minute contacts will have built long-term relationships, but that does not apply to everyone.

As the Bill does not require any inquiry of the family about the person’s circumstances, the clinical record from the GP practice about a home visit may be the most revealing way to ascertain the true situation and decrease the risk of coercion being missed, as my noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson has referred to. The GP record must be available to whoever is undertaking the assessment and assisted death service provision.

In terms of ability to see the GP, I support the evidence that we heard from Caroline Abrahams of Age UK, who said that older people often report that better access to a GP would make a huge difference to their world, and that two in three struggle to make appointments or communicate with their GP. Sadly, I am afraid the evidence in Wales is that in 2023 two-thirds of patients said to the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales that they had difficulty in getting an appointment, and that had gone up from one-third in 2022.

The Demos commission report, which was led by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, found that a doctor supporting the person and their family

“are the key elements that … should be included in any future framework for assisted dying”.

So I ask him: is that the reason why the requirement to be registered with the GP is included as a qualifying condition? Perhaps he could clarify a bit further.

The noble and learned Lord’s commission report envisaged that the assessing doctor would know the patient well and have an established relationship. In his “Newsnight” interview, he also confirmed that if the patient was young, it would be a sensible investigation for family members such as the parents to be interviewed if that young person was asking for an assisted death. Does he recognise the importance of putting some kind of stable primary care relationship at the heart of information that is available about the circumstances of the patient?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

It might help the House if I answer those questions, because they are rather at the centre of the debate. Before I get there, I should say that, in the view of the sponsors, the requirement to be registered with a GP practice reflects the reality, which is that in some cases you will have a relationship with your GP but in other cases you will not, despite your best efforts to do so. The reason for the relationship with the GP’s practice was that it provides a central place for records to be kept. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, rightly identified myriad references in the Bill to GP practices, and noble Lords will see that it is informing the GP of every step that is taken. As ever, though, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, puts her finger on it: you cannot possibly rely on people having an established relationship with their GP, and that is not the protection.

The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, seems to be key, and it is reflected in what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has said. The people looking after you are those who should be putting their input into what the right course is. The wrong answer to this is ludicrous hurdles that you have to get over. I do not call the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, ludicrous, and I unreservedly withdraw that in relation to her, but having to have seen your GP six times in the previous years is not the way to deal with it. Surely the way to deal with it is to put in the Bill—and I am more than willing to discuss how we do that—how the multidisciplinary team, which might be GPs, oncologists, nurses, physiotherapists or social workers but it might not, get to have some input into it.

What I am taking away from this debate is this: do not think about the GP being able to provide it, because they will in some cases, but they will not in others. Think instead about how you get the multidisciplinary team who are looking after the patient who wants an assisted death to give the appropriate input. Again, the right course is to talk to the people who have some expertise in relation to this and think how we build that into the Bill. It is not in the Bill at the moment, but I think we can put it in.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

Can the noble and learned Lord clarify whether he would consider amending the Bill to ensure that information is sought from those who have provided care to the patient during the course of the serious life-limiting illness that has led them to request an assisted death, whether that is from primary care, a hospital or a private sector provider? Would that also include information from members of the family, as he suggested in the Demos commission, when the person is young and when there are circumstances that would be particularly pertinent?

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Yes, we should get the information from those responsible for the care of the individual in a health sense. However, I am not willing to commit myself to that in relation to the family. The person making the decision should think, “What should we do about the family?”—but what if the patient has not seen their family for a long time or are at odds with particular family members? I believe that it should be done very much on a case-by-case basis.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord thought that it was ludicrous that a patient would see the same doctor. Is it ludicrous, in his view, that, on average, 3.5% of consultations between a patient and a doctor are face to face? Is it ludicrous that we should expect those consultations to be with the same doctor?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Acknowledging that the amendments that I was referring to were tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, I have nothing to add to the points that I have already made, other than to say that the noble Baroness used the word “average” and therefore there is a question about workability. Therefore, our interpretations on the noble Baroness’s second point do differ.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, I indicated my position in my intervention. I will summarise my understanding of the amendment, what my response is and next steps. All the amendments in this group seek a requirement in addition to having a GP before you can have an assisted death. My noble friend Lord Rook suggests having a GP for at least 12 months and having seen him twice before the first declaration. The noble Baronesses, Lady O’Loan and Lady Grey-Thompson, refer to having an “established relationship” with a GP. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, refers to one consultation and a home visit before the application. The noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, refers to a two-year relationship, an average number of visits face to face and then a letter that relates to the medical condition, the treatment and the state of mind of the patient.

As I have indicated, the GP, in the structure of the Bill, is not somebody who has to be involved. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, encapsulated perfectly that the GP is somebody who is receiving information. All these provisions for making it necessary to have a better relationship with your GP than just having a GP do not touch the safeguards. Quite separately from that, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said. These provisions have an air of utter unreality if you are saying that a condition of an assisted death is a particular relationship with a particular GP. I do not think that any of these safeguards work or reflect the current drafting of the Bill.

It is clear from listening to the debate that people who are concerned with the care should form a basis for the decision. It may not necessarily be making the decision—a lot of people would say that they should not be making the approval—but their input is vital. That was the insight of the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, which was very much reflected around the Committee. I am willing and keen to reflect that insight in the Bill. But the route is not through newness in relation to the GP. It is reflecting the proposition that the multidisciplinary team dealing with the patient must have some input. I do not know whether that satisfies the question asked by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, but that is the purpose of what I am taking away from this very valuable debate.

As for the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, we are going to speak about prisoners on the next group. Can I reserve my position in relation to prisoners to avoid there being too much duplication?

In those circumstances, I invite the noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Rook (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their patience, passion and seriousness in scrutinising this part of the Bill.

My Amendment 19, which started this debate, possibly needs some clarification. Forgive me, as one who is still becoming accustomed to your Lordships’ House, if I should have intervened earlier on this. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, for her remarks. I had the privilege of working with her in a previous life and saw her brilliant healthcare and the provision of many experts—not just healthcare professionals but the wider community—in seeking people’s health and well-being. Her best-case scenario is what we would like to see in all end-of-life care and in assisted dying.

However, to speak to the comments by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, my amendment is not seeking for a patient to have to see the same GP twice. That is not the amendment that we are trying to make here. We are asking that someone should be registered in a practice for a year and see a GP twice in that year.

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for her view that this could mean a wider team engagement—it might not be just the GP. I am saying not that it has to be the same GP twice but that a person has to engage with a GP twice in that stage. If any one of us in this Committee, or any one of our loved ones, were facing a serious medical condition right now, I think we would all have the reasonable expectation that in the next 12 months we might see a GP at our practice. Given the importance of this legislation and just what it will do for the state’s relationship to life and the NHS’s relationship to life, someone who is critically facing the end of life and requesting an assisted death should also be afforded the opportunity to see a GP twice in that period.

Dr Michael Mulholland has been quoted a number of times from his remarks to the Select Committee. I will finish with a quote from him. He said:

“We need to be sure that these things are checked on many levels. It is not at a single time and point where you tick something”.


I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, for his willingness to consider this issue. I look forward to seeing how these concerns and conversations might be expressed and reflected in the Bill. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment in my name.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I put a question to the noble Lord who has just spoken. I am really concerned—

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is intervening on somebody who made an intervention on somebody else. We got a very severe talking to about that before, so I do not think that is allowed.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I did not realise that the noble Lord was intervening on me, but I will just say that, for me, it is very difficult to have that argument. Kindness is absolutely the central point of everything that I believe in, so I am very vulnerable to that question. But the truth is, the Bill does not talk about pain at all. There is nothing in the Bill about pain. This is about a totally different circumstance. One of the problems in the country as a whole is that many people who support the Bill do so because they think it is about pain.

We could have a Bill about pain, but then we would come back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, that that is not what the Bill should have been. The Government should have said that they would give a free vote on a government Bill on this subject, rather than slipping it in in a wholly different way.

However, we are faced with what we have, and in that case it does not seem kind to say to people who are under all sorts of pressures and who are particularly vulnerable that this is a choice they should make. If we want kindness, we should be saying to the Government, “Get the Bill withdrawn and introduce a government Bill that is properly thought through where we can have the real debate that the public as a whole want us to have. You can still have a free vote”, but it should never have been put through in this way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I refer the noble Lord to the provisions within the Bill. His earlier question was very much about policy. I am sure that my noble and learned friend will also refer to this, but this is a matter of policy and therefore it is for Parliament to decide.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am obliged to noble Lords for all their questions. I will deal with the four issues that this group raises: prisoners, pregnant women, homeless people and those who are the subject of an education, health and care plan.

Turning first to prisoners, I declare my interest as chair of a prison charity, Liberty Kitchen. I have been involved in prison issues for a very long time; indeed, I was once the Minister responsible for prisons. When I was in that role, every time a prisoner committed suicide, it was deemed a failure of the Prison Service and something that we took incredibly seriously.

As far as prisoners are concerned, I will make two points. First, this is about people who are terminally ill and have six months or less to live. The question that the sponsors address is whether prisoners should be treated differently from the rest of the population. The posit is: if you are a prisoner and get a terminal illness, is the condition of the prison so terrible that you should never allow a prisoner ever to have that right?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for giving way. I will comment on the other side of the argument, which is the moral hazard. This could be an extreme case, but I will give the example of somebody who has lung cancer and has within a year to live. They also have some very difficult relationships and have wanted to get rid of a certain person for a long time. If they get rid of them, they will be sent to prison but will be within having six months to live and can have an assisted death, which takes away from the victim, the victim’s family and others any concern that justice is done. By giving them an assisted suicide, justice would not be done in that case.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I am not quite sure I understand the point. If the position is that I have six months to live and I want to kill somebody, which appears to be the example given, I am entitled to an assisted death whether I am in prison or not. It would probably take six months before the trial took place anyway. I am not quite sure what is the moral hazard that the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, has in mind, because the right to an assisted death would be there inside or outside of prison. So, I do not see what benefit would be obtained by excluding it from somebody in prison.

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

If I may try and answer that, the moral hazard is that the victim would have seen a criminal convicted, but the criminal would not serve the sentence given to them by the courts and would instead have an easy way out. You could say that he has six months to live, but as we know, in many cases —Esther Rantzen, for instance, is one of them—it can go on for years. To end his punishment would not give justice to the victim—that is the point I am making.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

It is just such an obscure proposition that we should not determine our policy in relation to it.

Moving on to pregnant women, the amendments say that no pregnant woman should have the right to an assisted death and that everybody who wants an assisted death must have a pregnancy test. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made it clear that the second was a probing amendment and not a serious proposition. In relation to pregnant women, I completely accept what is being said, particularly by my noble friend Lady Berger, about what the statistics show. Again, safeguards can adequately deal with this and I am not in favour of any change in relation to it. We should remember that what we are dealing with here is somebody who has only six months to live. Homeless people—

[Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)]

There is a big issue here. Other states around the world which have had assisted dying for some time have differences of view. In Oregon, which has had assisted dying since 1997, there is a requirement to keep the mother alive for as long as possible, particularly when there is a viable foetus. The Netherlands takes a completely different view, with foeticide—where the foetus must be terminated by one means or another, often by intracardial injection of potassium chloride—before the mother can be euthanised.

At which end of the scale does the noble and learned Lord prefer these things? The royal colleges are against this whole system, yet we will be relying on them to fill in the gaps in this legislation. It is incumbent upon us to fill in those gaps for them, because they are not keen on this.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The noble Lord puts it accurately. Some countries have taken one view and other countries have taken another. It is clear from the choice that I am supporting that we take the view that pregnancy should not be a bar to it, though inevitably, as the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, said, there should be questions in relation to appropriate people, whether they are pregnant or not, which may have an effect on the result. On the more detailed questions, based on what I am saying, they would not arise in the Bill.

Going on to the third category, homeless people, again with six months to live or less, will very frequently, as my noble friend Lady Gray said, have complex needs and complex lives. I am very strongly against that right to an assisted death being taken away from them, but the safeguards will apply, to be sure that it is their clear and settled view and not the product of coercion.

Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, raised the education, health and care plan. The range of people with an EHCP is very wide, as everybody knows. I am again very against excluding everybody from the significant provisions of the Bill, because the protections are there. They can go up to the age of 25 and, as I indicated last Friday, for people aged 25 and under we should think of whether there should be enhanced protection. That would include everybody up to the age of 25, including those under an education, health and care plan. In the light of those indications, I hope—

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

My Lords, I spoke at Second Reading but have not yet intervened in Committee. I have the greatest respect for the noble and learned Lord. However, would he not agree that there is a special vulnerability about all the categories that we have been discussing this afternoon? Are there any provisions that he can build into the Bill to address this? If you took a homeless person who only had six months to live and said, “Come and live in a five-star hotel and have good palliative care”, would they then still choose an assisted death? If you took somebody out of prison who had only six months to live and said, “We’re giving you early release, you can live in a five-star hotel with good palliative care”, would they still choose an assisted death? There is a particular vulnerability about these people. It is no good simply talking about their rights. They do have their rights, but they are vulnerable. I hope that the noble and learned Lord might be able to build something into the Bill to protect these categories of people.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I completely accept that there are vulnerabilities in these groups. The question is whether we should exclude everybody within those groups from this right. Should we exclude every single homeless person or prisoner? We can disagree on this, but I am saying that I do not think that is right because the protections are sufficient.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Carter of Haslemere, asked how we deliver our Article 2 duty to protect people from death when they are in prison and we are offering them an assisted death. We are protecting them through the detailed safeguards there are before the individual prisoner is entitled to have an assisted death. In my view, that will be an adequate protection and give adequate effect to Article 2. In light of my remarks, I hope the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.