National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Lord Eatwell Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I beg to move the amendment standing in my name and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead.

In my speech on Report on an amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Barker, I expressed support for the amendment but flagged up that I had only recently been alerted to the possible glitch in it as it related to Scotland. Specifically, the difficulty stems from the fact that the term “domiciliary support service” is not defined in Scottish legislation, and therefore the provisions of the amendment would not apply to parallel services in Scotland. I flagged that up and that I might seek to address this at Third Reading.

I must confess that it was not easy to find wording that met the tidying-up criteria stipulated for Third Reading amendments. Some possible wording could well have extended the services in Scotland beyond those in the other parts of the United Kingdom. I am very grateful to Rachel Cackett and Chris Small from the Coalition for Care and Support Providers in Scotland for their help in trying to address this issue and to the Public Bill Office, especially Donna Davidson, for assistance in framing an amendment which satisfied the tidying-up rule.

This is a modest amendment. It is intended to achieve consistency of treatment for certain care providers right across the United Kingdom. I hope my comments will commend themselves to my noble friend Lady Kramer, whose name is on the first amendment, and I hope the Minister can accept this tidying-up provision. I acknowledge that it would be without prejudice to how the Government intend to proceed in the other place with this clause as amended, but at least it would mean that it went to the other place with a degree of consistency across these islands.

Before I sit down, I apologise that, in my contribution on Report, I inadvertently said that CrossReach, the social care arm of the Church of Scotland, employed 16,000 people whereas it is 1,600. When I got my handwritten notes back from Hansard, I noted that I had actually written down the correct figure, so my error was either due to my handwriting or my eyesight. I have corrected that in the Official Report. I beg to move.

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, I am afraid that I regard this amendment, although obviously achieving consistency with treatment in Scotland as well as in the rest of the United Kingdom, as just another of the irresponsible measures we have seen from Opposition Benches. One will have noticed very clearly that there are no proposals whatever on how the expenditure should be funded. As a way of managing public expenditure, this is not the way to do it.

Public expenditure should be taken seriously as a means of deciding the structure, composition and scale of expenditure. Simply scattering money by proposing amendments such as this to the national insurance Bill is not a responsible way of going about this fiscal process.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, it seems to have fallen to me to again follow the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and it falls to me to again disagree with his comments. I am delighted to support this amendment from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, which I see as just being a fair and administrative tidying up to ensure that, in whatever state the Bill ends up as it goes through our House and the other place, it treats all services across the United Kingdom as fairly as possible.

I cannot believe that noble Lords opposite would wish there to be a gaping hole in what applies to Scotland compared with what might apply to the rest of the United Kingdom. Given that the amendment from the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Barker, was passed by your Lordships’ House with a majority of 130, the sentiment of this place is clear.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, has done a lot of background work to try to get the wording within the specifics of a Third Reading amendment. The Public Services Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 is not a simple and clear definition, but we are trying to ensure that support services are included in Scotland as well as England. Therefore, it is my great pleasure to support this amendment and I hope that the Government will ensure there is parity across the UK for the Bill.