Representation of the People (Electronic Communications and Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2016
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Dunlop
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 2 November be approved.
Considered in Grand Committee on 12 December.
Representation of the People (Electronic Communications and Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2016
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Dunlop
That the Grand Committee do consider the Representation of the People (Electronic Communications and Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2016.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move that the draft regulations laid before the House on 2 November 2016 now be considered. This statutory instrument amends the existing legislative framework for elections in Northern Ireland to allow for people there to register online. The regulations make a number of other amendments to existing electoral law, but I will focus here on the most substantive provisions.
Increasingly, we are all used to banking, shopping and accessing a range of public services online. In Great Britain, people have been able to use the online Register to Vote system since 2014. The online digital service offers a quick and easy alternative to the more traditional option of paper application forms. It is clearly right that people in Northern Ireland should be offered that same choice, and I make it clear at the outset that it is a choice. There is no suggestion that the move to introduce online registration will replace the existing paper registration system. Applying to register on a paper application form will remain an option for any individual who does not want to register online. But for those individuals in Northern Ireland who want to take advantage of this new service, the draft regulations allow the extension of the already successful digital service operating in Great Britain to cover Northern Ireland.
We know that the online Register to Vote service has been very successful in the rest of the UK. Figures suggest that around 90% of those registering in Great Britain this year outside the canvass period did so using the online service. Customer satisfaction with the service consistently measures more than 90%. I am sure that we all want to see increased political participation in politics among young people, including in Northern Ireland. I am pleased to report that since the introduction of online registration in Great Britain, a record 4.2 million applications to register have been made by people aged 16 to 24.
The application pages developed for Northern Ireland have been user-tested throughout their development to ensure that the system provides an excellent standard of service. Under these draft provisions, a Northern Ireland online application will work in essentially the same way as for the rest of the UK. It will require the same personal data as for the existing paper form. I have had a demonstration of the system and can confirm that the service is excellent. Northern Ireland Members from the other place have also been offered a demonstration of the system; I am happy to extend that offer to noble Lords.
The system is quick and easy, taking no more than five minutes to complete. It will not allow anyone inadvertently to miss out information, which might delay their application at a later stage. This will mean more complete applications, less follow-up correspondence from the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland and more people being placed faster on the register. In designing this system, our primary concern has been to ensure that we retain the confidence of users that the electoral system remains secure. In Northern Ireland, the usual requirement for those applying to register is to provide a handwritten signature. In an online application through the digital service, the act of submitting the application form along with the declaration at the end of the application will constitute an electronic signature.
Your Lordships will also be aware that there are strict rules on absent voting in Northern Ireland, which will continue to be enforced. Every successful digital registrant in Northern Ireland will be issued with a digital registration number, which will fulfil the same function as a signature for digital registrants if they wish to apply for a postal or proxy vote. It will ensure that postal vote applications can continue to be scrutinised appropriately. The number will be unique to the individual, last for their lifetime and remain unaltered no matter how many times the individual moves or changes their name. We have consulted the Electoral Commission. It agrees that the provision of an identifier to replace the signature check in the postal vote process is necessary. It raised the possibility of some individuals losing their numbers. To address this possibility, we have put in place a system allowing for numbers to be reissued quickly where they have been lost.
Officials will work closely with the chief electoral officer to monitor the successful operation of the digital registration number procedures. We have also changed the wording of the declaration at the end of the registration form for all applicants, both digital and paper. Applicants will be required to declare that they are the person named in the application and that the information they have provided is true.
There will also be special provision for people with a disability. The declaration makes it clear that the application and declaration can be submitted on behalf of someone unable due to disability to do so themselves, as long as it is done in their presence. The draft regulations also make comprehensive provisions for the exchange of data. This exchange is necessary to facilitate digital registration and allow applications to be verified against the DWP database. I assure your Lordships that these data-sharing provisions are necessary and include all the appropriate safeguards. The provisions have been modelled on the existing provisions in place for Great Britain and have been scrutinised and approved by the Information Commissioner for Northern Ireland.
These regulations do not yet cover the digital registration of overseas electors wishing to register in Northern Ireland. The Government are committed to implementing votes for life, so it makes sense to await the implementation of this wider electoral provision for overseas electors before designing the online system for overseas electors registering in Northern Ireland.
In addition to digital registration provisions, the draft regulations make a number of other more minor or technical amendments. These make improvements and ensure, where appropriate, consistency of administrative approach with the rest of the UK. For example, the regulations bring Northern Ireland into line with the data protections in place in Great Britain for individuals on the list of applicants to be placed on the register. Those wishing to inspect an entry on the list will still be able to see the name, address and nationality of the applicant, but not the other personal details contained in the application. The regulations also provide for removal of overseas attestation to bring Northern Ireland requirements into line with the rest of the UK. Further, they remove the outdated requirement for Crown servants and British Council employees to have their forms submitted by their employer.
The implementation of digital registration is fully supported and welcomed by the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland, and the regulations have been approved by the Information Commissioner’s Office for Northern Ireland. If your Lordships approve these regulations, the precise timing of the introduction of digital registration will be determined by the successful testing of the electoral office computer system. I hope that all the necessary checks will be passed by the end of February. The regulations will be signed when the digital platform is ready to be launched and will come into force the following day.
I hope your Lordships will agree that the introduction of digital electoral registration is a major step towards modernising the delivery of elections in Northern Ireland. It is an excellent service that will offer people in Northern Ireland the level of choice and service that we all expect in these modern times. We hope that this change will lead to an increase in political participation among a range of groups, particularly young people. I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the regulations and I for one hope to take up the offer of seeing a demonstration, which I understand will take place on Wednesday this week. First, I do not see this as a case of Northern Ireland catching up with the rest of the UK because our electoral registration participation rates are already very good. In fact, in respect of young people they are better than those in the rest of Great Britain. The last figures I saw showed that around 83% of young people were registered, but there is a reason for that.
There is a fundamental conflict in the Government’s position on this. If you were arguing that online registration is an attempt to encourage young people to register, which it might in some cases, another part of the Government’s policy with regard to electoral office matters is going in the opposite direction; namely, the closure of a number of electoral offices in Northern Ireland. That issue is in conflict with the Government’s stated policies. The local offices have a policy of direct engagement with schools, and that is why they have been able to raise the level of participation by young people. Simply making online registration available is no use unless people are motivated to participate. We already have a system that is working well and achieving very acceptable results.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his speech and the clear explanation of the draft regulations. We are happy to support these changes. Voters in Great Britain have been able to access online registration since 2014 and the Electoral Commission recommended last year that this should be extended to Northern Ireland. Online registration is a quick, easy and, so far, popular alternative to the paper form. We welcome that this choice will now be open to voters across the whole of the UK. This is particularly welcome with regards to encouraging young people to vote, as we know that online registration in Great Britain has been widely taken up by younger voters.
The Minister is of course aware of the specific concerns relating to electoral fraud in Northern Ireland. We have been assured that the plans are brought forward with the support of the Electoral Commission and the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland. What kind of monitoring and evaluation will be done following these changes to ensure that the system works as intended? I ask that specifically with the provisions for the introduction of digital registration numbers in mind, to ensure that the absent voting system is not left vulnerable to electoral fraud. With assurance that the right safeguards are in place, we are content to support the regulations.
The Minister will be aware of concerns over the closure of electoral offices in Northern Ireland and the effect that this will have on jobs and on people’s ability to access local services where they do not have access to the internet. I know that the Government are consulting on the future of electoral services in Northern Ireland, and will not ask the Minister to pre-empt the consultation. But can he assure the Committee that for those voters who wish to use a traditional paper form to register to vote, that excellent service will still be available alongside the welcome access to online registration? I repeat that we are happy to lend our support to the regulations, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Lord Dunlop
I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions and their support for the fundamental measure that we are proposing, which is extending digital registration to Northern Ireland. I will take the points raised by my noble friend Lord Empey in order. I note that these regulations are about digital registration, and many of his comments related to other aspects of policy.
First, on access to broadband, one can register online without having broadband. A standard internet connection will be enough and one can even register using a mobile phone or tablet if it is internet enabled. The reality is that there are rural areas across the UK that do not yet have the internet service that we would like and Northern Ireland is not unique in that regard, but that is not a reason to delay the introduction of this service.
My noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, both asked about overall staffing of the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland. Staffing and the administrative implementation of digital registration are an operational matter for the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland. On wider matters, there is an ongoing consultation into the future structure of delivery of electoral services in Northern Ireland, and I hope that all interested parties will take the opportunity to contribute. In particular, the consultation seeks views on an enhanced role for district councils, which, as we indicate in the consultation paper, could pave the way for an increase in the provision of local services. However, we will consider very carefully consultation responses before reaching any final decision.
In terms of a digital system being more open to electoral fraud, clearly we believe that we have put in place a robust system. Details of an applicant’s name, date of birth and national insurance number will be checked against the national DWP database to ensure state-of-the-art identity verification. Once the identity check has been conducted, the electoral office will still run further data matching to verify addresses. That is not an automatic system. Once the computerised checks are completed, it will be for the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland’s staff to determine whether an individual is placed on the register. If there are concerns, they can contact the individual for more information. The other safeguard is that the certificate of registration will be sent by post to the registered address as a final identity check.
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, the cost of extending the digital service to Northern Ireland is £250,000, which will be met by the Cabinet Office. Finally, I assure the noble Lord, as I did in my opening remarks, that this is to provide people in Northern Ireland with a choice, and the paper-based system will continue to be available for those who wish to use it.
To go back to another point that my noble friend Lord Empey made, engagement with schools is, again, an operational matter for the chief electoral officer, but no doubt this will continue to be of high importance in the future.
As I said, I am grateful for noble Lords’ contributions. I think that in this modern day it is right to give people the option of digital registration, and it brings Northern Ireland into line with Great Britain, while reflecting the differences in electoral law between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. We are designing the system in such a way as to retain voters’ confidence in its security. As I said at the outset, I hope that this will play an important part in increasing political participation in Northern Ireland.
Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc. (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, the purpose of the Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc. (Scotland) Act 2016 is to modernise the system of fatal accident inquiries—often referred to as FAIs—in Scotland. The Act is in line with the recommendations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen of Whitekirk, following his independent review of FAI legislation in 2009. The Act received Royal Assent on 14 January 2016, and the order before your Lordships is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998. The Section 104 mechanism allows for necessary or expedient legislative provision to be made by the UK Parliament in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. Certain provisions in the 2016 Act will be given effect in the rest of the UK where that is required, and will make expedient substantive legislative provision in relation to matters reserved to Westminster.
Noble Lords may be aware that fatal accident inquiries are held to establish the circumstances surrounding certain deaths occurring in Scotland. Mandatory FAIs must be held when someone dies in legal custody, or when someone dies as the result of an accident related to their work. FAIs are broadly equivalent to coroners’ inquests in England and Wales, which are independent judicial inquiries conducted into the facts surrounding a death that is sudden, unexpected or unnatural.
Among the changes brought forward by the 2016 Act is one to extend the categories of death in which it is mandatory to hold a fatal accidents inquiry in Scotland. The categories for which mandatory FAIs will be held have been extended to include deaths of children in secure accommodation and in police custody, irrespective of location. These changes relate to devolved matters and so it is right that the Scottish Parliament has legislated for them. This Section 104 order will enact changes to reserved matters to ensure they are consistent with the new Act of the Scottish Parliament. It also makes some substantive policy changes, including making clear that it will become mandatory for an FAI to be held into deaths of service personnel in the course of active duty in Scotland. Until now, this has been at the discretion of the Lord Advocate.
The order also proposes that a military death in the offshore area of the continental shelf adjacent to Scotland would require a mandatory FAI. This brings legislation in Scotland on investigations into military deaths in line with the rest of the UK to the extent that every military death in Scotland will, in future, be subject to a judicial inquiry. This new category of mandatory FAIs will be treated in similar fashion to others—for example, in relation to the power of the Lord Advocate to decide that an FAI is not required because the circumstances of death have been sufficiently established in other proceedings.
These proposed changes have taken on added significance in recent days following the death of Lance Corporal Joe Spencer of 3rd Battalion The Rifles at RAF Tain. Lance Corporal Spencer tragically died near Inverness, three weeks ago today, on Tuesday 1 November, in what the Ministry of Defence has described as a “live fire accident”. I am sure that I speak for the whole House in offering our condolences to Lance Corporal Spencer’s family, friends and colleagues. In legal terms, the mandatory requirement for a fatal accident inquiry, proposed in this order, is not retrospective. Even if the death is found to have been in the circumstances provided for, it will not apply to the death of Lance Corporal Spencer. Instead, the existing arrangements under the Fatal Accidents Act 1976 will apply, and it will be within the discretion of the Lord Advocate to rule on whether an FAI is held.
This sad incident, none the less, highlights the importance of the order and illustrates why the UK and Scottish Governments, Ministers and officials, have worked closely together to bring it about. I hope that your Lordships will agree that this collaboration represents another example of the UK Government’s commitment to work with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work effectively. I beg to move.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I join the Minister in expressing condolence to Lance Corporal Spencer and his family for that tragic incident.
I welcome what the noble Lord has said about the introduction of a mandatory FAI in the case of servicemen who die in Scotland or outside the mainland in territorial waters. If these deaths occur in England, there is a mandatory inquest. One of the problems has been the imbalance between the mandatory system in England and Wales and the discretionary system in Scotland. It makes good sense that they should be on the same basis.
Another point worth noting is that the FAI system is very well equipped for a thorough investigation as to the reason for the death, which is not always available in inquests because of the way in which they are organised in England and Wales. It has caused problems for the Supreme Court in dealing with cases which arise overseas, such as deaths occurring during the situation in Iraq. The Scottish system is well equipped and there is no question that introducing a mandatory system provides a very sound basis for finding out exactly why these tragic incidents occurred and also making arrangements to avoid, if possible, a repetition of the same event. I welcome very much what the Minister has said.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I add my condolences to those expressed to the family of Lance Corporal Joe Spencer. It befits this House that such condolences are offered.
I thank the Minister for the usual clarity with which he explained the order, which we welcome. The legislation makes much-needed changes to update and improve the system of FAIs. These are tragic cases and are incredibly difficult for the families affected. It is right that we should do everything we can to establish what happened to their loved one, and to make sure that lessons are learned for the future.
The changes made by the 2016 Act go some way to improve the system. The Cullen review made its recommendations seven years ago now, so it is welcome that we have reached this point of action. There has been a wait to see this system updated. This order allows the 2016 Act to be implemented in full, so we are happy to lend it our support. As has been mentioned, particularly welcome are the provisions on the death of military service personnel. This issue has been made painfully resonant in the past few weeks by the tragic death of Lance Corporal Spencer. We again send our thoughts and condolences to his family and friends.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for the specific, experienced point of view he brought to this brief debate. I echo the words of the Minister that this UK Parliament stands ready, as I think it always has, to make devolution work not only in Scotland but in the other devolved Assemblies in the country.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate for their contributions and for their support for this order.
I very much agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said about the system in Scotland being well equipped to deal with these inquiries.
To pick up the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the law on service personnel dying abroad has been re-enacted as Section 7 of the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc. (Scotland) Act 2016. I think I am right in saying that, where a death occurs abroad and the body is repatriated, the Lord Advocate has discretion to launch an inquiry into such a death. If I have not covered his point fully, I am happy to write to him but I hope that deals with it.
The order allows for the 2016 Act to be given effect in the rest of the United Kingdom where that is required and, as has already been said, to bring the treatment of military deaths in Scotland in line with the rest of the UK. On that basis, I commend the order to the House.
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act 2016 (Independent Reporting Commission) Regulations 2016
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Dunlop
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 15 September be approved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, this statutory instrument makes provision for the exercise of functions of the new Independent Reporting Commission. The commission is being established under the fresh start agreement to report on progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland.
Your Lordships will recall that the fresh start agreement included a range of measures agreed by political parties in Northern Ireland last November on ending paramilitarism and tackling organised crime. The Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act provides the legislative foundations for the commission. This House debated clauses relating to the commission in April and the Bill received Royal Assent on 4 May 2016. During the passage of the Bill there were many constructive contributions from noble Lords from across the House. I welcome the opportunity for further debate tonight on the provisions set out in this statutory instrument. The debate also provides me with the opportunity to update the House on progress towards establishing the commission.
The UK Government and the Government of Ireland signed an international treaty on 13 September to establish the IRC. This confirmed the two Governments’ joint intent to ensure that future generations in Northern Ireland are not blighted by the scourge of paramilitarism. The treaty also brings to life our commitment to end paramilitary activity, which we made in last year’s fresh start agreement.
A treaty is, of course, more than words on a piece of paper and more than a legal obligation. It is also a solemn and genuine commitment between states diligently to work together in pursuit of a common goal. The common goal in establishing the IRC is to rid Northern Ireland society of the harm caused by paramilitary activity. Let me be clear: there never was any justification for paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland. There is none today and there must not be any in the future.
The treaty was laid in this House on 22 September. It will come into force when the necessary UK and Irish legislation is completed. The Irish Government intend to pass their legislation by the end of this year and the Government expect the IRC to be established early in 2017. The statutory instrument before us, which gives full effect to the treaty, is the next step in the process.
Before I turn to the specific provisions of the instrument, I remind the House of the IRC’s functions. These are: to report annually on progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland; to report on other such further occasions if jointly requested by the UK Government and the Government of Ireland; and to report on the implementation of the relevant measures of the UK and Irish Governments, and the Northern Ireland Executive, including on the Executive’s strategy to tackle paramilitary activity.
I turn now to the regulations themselves. Regulation 2(1) requires the IRC to exercise its functions with a view to supporting long-term peace and stability in society, and stable and inclusive devolved government in Northern Ireland.
Regulation 2(2) requires that, in exercising its functions, the IRC must not do anything which might have a prejudicial effect on the prosecution of crime. Your Lordships may recall that Section 2 of the Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act 2016 already requires the IRC not to act in any way that might have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation or detection of crime. Regulation 2(2) is necessary because Article 9(3)(c) of the treaty requires the commission not to act in a way that might have a prejudicial effect on any proceedings which have, or are likely to be, commenced in a court of law; and Article 9(3)(d) requires it not to act in a way which might have a prejudicial effect on the prevention, investigation, detection or prosecution of crime.
These requirements are already reflected in Section 2(3)(c) and (d) of the 2016 Act, with the exception that Section 2(3)(c) does not expressly require the commission to avoid acting in a way which might prejudice the prosecution of crime. The prosecution of crime could include criminal proceedings which are at too early a stage for it to be said with certainty whether proceedings are likely to be commenced. It may also cover matters related to prosecution which are not focused specifically on criminal proceedings—for example, the gathering of evidence. The purpose of Regulation 2(2) is therefore to ensure that this aspect of the treaty is given full effect in the UK.
Regulation 3(1) requires the Secretary of State to lay reports of the commission before Parliament and to arrange for them to be published. Regulation 3(2) requires the Secretary of State to lay the commission’s accounts and auditor’s reports before Parliament, and to arrange for the accounts and reports to be published.
The impact of paramilitary-style attacks and activity in Northern Ireland is all too evident. There have already been four paramilitary murders this year. This is abhorrent. We must ensure that the paramilitary label is no longer seen as a badge of honour and that paramilitary-style control, coercion and extortion of communities is stopped.
Since my appointment in July as a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office, I have made visits and met groups across Northern Ireland, and I have seen at first hand the progress and economic development being achieved. Paramilitaries are the enemies of progress and economic development in Northern Ireland. They hold back communities, deterring investment and jobs and preventing people moving forward with their lives. Tackling effectively paramilitary activity must therefore include measures to help communities challenge the control that these groups exert upon them. The reports of the new commission will play a key part in informing how we do that and ensuring that the Northern Ireland Executive are doing all they can to drive out paramilitary activity from local communities. The UK Government are committed to playing their part. We have committed £25 million over five years to support the Northern Ireland Executive’s action plan to end paramilitarism. We have committed a further £3 million to fund the work of the IRC.
It is essential, however, that the Executive’s plan is focused on delivery in areas where it is most needed and that it has both real and measurable outcomes. The Government are working with the Executive to ensure that the funding secured under fresh start is used to greatest effect.
The ultimate test of success in all our endeavours will be whether communities dealing with the malign influence of paramilitary activity experience a real, tangible and positive improvement to their lives. This will be the most important feature flowing from the Independent Reporting Commission’s work. It is right that we should all set high expectations of what we seek to achieve, because those affected by paramilitary activity deserve no less. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his full explanation of the regulations before us. I thank him and his staff for keeping me fully informed on this legislation from day one. That assistance is greatly appreciated.
The Minister mentioned the paramilitaries and referred to work to remove the breeding ground for unjustified paramilitarism. That is very important. Collectively, we have made huge strides in Northern Ireland and that needs to continue. My honourable friend Vernon Coaker, former shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, is long on record as having called for a commission along the lines illustrated by the Minister. I again place on record our full support for the Government’s efforts in this field. The way in which the Government have sought to involve the Opposition and all Members in this matter indicates the bipartisan nature of attitudes towards issues in Northern Ireland.
A number of questions were asked in Committee in the Commons—I am not taking credit for them; I am just picking them up from Hansard. The questions may have been answered elsewhere by letter, but it would be useful if the Minister could either answer them now or, as did his counterpart in the other place, undertake to write. My honourable friend Stephen Pound asked whether the commission’s reports would be laid before the House and whether it would be an annual process or a one-off. He asked also what attitude the Government had to the cross-community aspect of the commission, whether there would be a deliberate effort to make it cross-community or whether any other methods were being considered. As we all know, all communities in Northern Ireland need to feel that they have a stake in whatever happens.
The Minister in the Commons indicated that he would respond in writing on a number of matters. He indicated that he was not sure whether the reports would be placed in the Library or laid before the House. He continued:
“As for sensitivities around the appointments”—
which we all understand—
“there is a detailed process for making them, and I am happy to explain that in writing”.
In the interest of clarity, will the Minister undertake to write to all noble Lords present tonight with responses to the questions asked in the Commons? Stephen Pound MP asked about the appointment of the chair of the commission. Are any proposals on record yet as to how that would be tackled? I want to make it clear that, like anyone else, I appreciate the sensitivities around these issues in Northern Ireland. I do not ask these questions to embarrass anyone or to cause difficulties for the Government, but clarity is needed and we need to know exactly how the appointments work. The Minister in the Commons, Mr Kris Hopkins, said:
“Again, I will write to the hon. Gentleman about appointments to the commission and how appointees are selected, and will give him that information in full”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 2/11/16; col. 6.]
If these questions have been answered in writing by the Minister in the Commons, will the Minister repeat those letters?
Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his statement and I, too, apologise for missing the opening. I very much welcome the regulations relating to the setting-up of the Independent Reporting Commission. Does the Minister agree that good progress has been made in Northern Ireland since the signing of the fresh start agreement? A long list of issues has been agreed and all are being progressed and implemented. The situation in Northern Ireland today is much more positive and, as we have heard, there has been a long period of stable government.
However, the threat posed by paramilitaries from both the republican and the loyalist sides, unfortunately, still exists. Only last night, we witnessed the murder of Mr Jim Hughes at Divis flats. This has to be condemned by all right-minded persons. All parties must work together to rid society of all paramilitary activity.
I look forward to the Independent Reporting Commission beginning its work and to receiving its first report, which I trust will prove to be an important arm in helping to bring an end to all forms of paramilitarism in Northern Ireland, which for far too long has been a scourge to law-abiding communities in Northern Ireland. I very much hope that the next step in securing long-lasting peace is for all parties to agree a way forward to finding a solution for dealing with the legacy of the Troubles.
Lord Dunlop
I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate and for their support for these regulations. In particular, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, to her new role and echo her warm words for the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, who was part of the independent panel that made 43 recommendations on how we take dealing with paramilitary activity forward.
As I said earlier, this is another important step in the process of meeting the commitments entered into as part of the fresh start agreement. A number of points were raised during the debate, and I will try to address as many of them as I can now. If there are any points that I am unable to cover, I will, of course write to the noble Lords concerned.
First, on reporting, Regulation 3(1)(a) requires the Secretary of State to lay the reports of the commission before the House. If the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, would like further detail on the process, I am, of course, happy to write to him.
On the cross-community nature of the commission, there will be four commissioners, one nominated by the UK Government, one nominated by the Irish Government and two appointed by the Executive who will be nominated jointly by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. That is to ensure collaboration and to provide cross-community credibility.
With regard to the appointment of a chairman of the commission, this is not required by the legislation or necessarily envisaged, but the IRC has the autonomy to appoint a chairperson if it so chooses. We hope that the commission will be in place in early 2017. We are aiming for January 2017.
I can assure the noble Baroness that the Government will not allow the negotiations on exiting the EU in any way to compromise the Government’s determination to carry forward their commitments to Northern Ireland.
When we debated the primary legislation, my noble friend made the point about sanctions. It is open to the IRC to make recommendations to inform the Executive’s programme for government.
With regard to the Executive’s action plan, as has already been mentioned, the UK is providing £25 million to tackle paramilitary activity. The Government are working with the Executive to deliver a robust action plan. Before the UK Government can agree to release funds, we must see a prioritised and effective plan from the Executive, and we look forward to seeing more detailed plans from the Executive. It is essential that the Executive make urgent progress on this.
On the funding of the IRC, I note what the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said. It is important that the transparency of the Executive’s finances is underpinned by an independent fiscal council.
My noble friend Lord Lexden asked a number of questions. The IRC may contract such legal services as it considers necessary. That is obviously part of why the Government are providing £3 million funding for the commission.
We hope that the further regulations will be laid soon. I hope that I have covered most, if not all, of the points that have been raised.
In conclusion, the continuing activities of paramilitaries are a blight on communities across Northern Ireland. The Independent Reporting Commission will have an important role in helping to rid Northern Ireland society of these heinous activities. I am sure the whole House looks forward to the IRC starting its work early next year.
Lord Empey
My Lords, just before the noble Lord sits down, I am bit unclear about one thing—if he is not in a position to answer now, perhaps he could write to me. The £5 million a year has been promised, but the Government clearly have some issues over the lack of clarity on the part of the Northern Ireland Executive’s strategy. Could he tell us whether there is any timetable for resolving that issue? Could he even share with us—if not now, perhaps by writing and putting the letter in the Library—what it is that is not sufficiently developed? We have been at this game for well over 20 years now, and it is very disturbing that there is money there while there are huge areas of deprivation and paramilitarism is still active. It would be most unfortunate if we cannot get that already-provided resource out there, making some positive contribution. If the Minister could help us in some way on that, I would be most grateful.
Lord Dunlop
As my noble friend will know, the Secretary of State has to persuade the Treasury to release funds. The House will know that the Treasury requires sight of detailed and measurable plans, and that is what is at issue here. I cannot give him a precise timetable tonight, but if there is further information that can be usefully shared, I am happy to write to him on that. The key point is that the Government are seized of the need to make urgent progress on putting in place an effective, detailed action plan that will start to tackle this scourge on society in Northern Ireland.
Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Scotland) Act 2015 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Dunlop
That the draft Orders laid before the House on 11 and 13 July be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 18 October.
Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
Lord Dunlop Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Dunlop
That the Grand Committee do consider the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop)
My Lords, to summarise, the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 2016 consolidates bankruptcy legislation in Scotland. The Act received Royal Assent on 28 April 2016, having been passed by the Scottish Parliament. The purpose of the 2016 Act is to consolidate Scottish laws on insolvency and make bankruptcy policy more accessible, both for the money advice community and those experiencing financial difficulties. As with the order we have just discussed, if passed, this order would amend UK legislation as a consequence of the Act. The order is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for “necessary or expedient” changes to UK legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament.
The Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 1985 has been heavily amended over the years and new primary legislation has been introduced, most recently in the form of the Bankruptcy and Debt Advice (Scotland) Act 2014. Bankruptcy legislation in Scotland has been widely considered to be confusing and difficult to follow, and the need to consolidate the law has been identified. Drafting of the Bankruptcy Consolidation Bill was led by the Scottish Law Commission, which, alongside officials from the Accountant in Bankruptcy, Scotland’s insolvency service, undertook a consultation in 2011 on consolidating bankruptcy legislation before the Lord Advocate brought forward proposals for a Bill. This Scottish primary consolidation legislation therefore brings together and restates all of the Scottish bankruptcy legislation, including the elements from the 2014 Act—a move supported by the money advice and insolvency industry, as reflected in evidence to the Scottish Parliament when it passed the 2016 Act earlier this year.
Some of the provisions that the legislation consolidated must be restated in both Scots law and UK law. For example, Articles 4 and 6 of the order restate provisions on the effect of discharge from debts and on limitation of actions outside Scotland as a result of Scottish bankruptcies. Article 3 restates the current arrangements for examination, in certain Scottish bankruptcy proceedings, of persons residing in parts of the UK other than Scotland. Schedule 1 updates cross-references in statutes across the UK—for instance, to replace references to “the 1985 Act” with references to “the 2016 Act”. Lastly, Article 5 restates minor procedural provisions about powers of the Secretary of State.
The UK and Scottish Governments, Ministers and officials have worked closely together to ensure that this order makes the necessary amendments to UK legislation in consequence of the 2016 Act of the Scottish Parliament. I hope that noble Lords agree that this order is also an appropriate use of the powers in the Scotland Act and a further example of the UK Government’s commitment to work with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, again I thank the Minister for the exposition of quite a complicated order. Although no formal consultation by the Government has taken place on the order, the Scottish Law Commission consulted fully both on the draft Bill and an accompanying order under Section 104 of the 1998 Act. These are available online. The Scottish Parliament stated in guidance notes on a draft of the order provided for information with the Bill that became the 2016 Act—the consolidation Bill:
“This instrument has no impact of a regulatory nature on the private sector or civil society organisations”.
It said that no significant imposition or reduction of costs was foreseen, that there was no impact on the public sector, and the legislation would not have any significant impact on activities undertaken by small businesses. The effect of the order is purely consequential; it,
“does not create new policy or frameworks and therefore no monitoring or review of the effects of this Order are required”.
It is quite simple. It is a necessary matter, and has the support of the Opposition.
Lord Dunlop
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support. As he has laid out, this order is fundamentally of a technical nature, consolidating legislation rather than making any changes to policy or the devolution settlement. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.
Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Scotland) Act 2015 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
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Lord Dunlop
That the Grand Committee do consider the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Scotland) Act 2015 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2016
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, it is appropriate that we should be considering this order today, as today is Anti-Slavery Day. The order before your Lordships is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for “necessary or expedient” changes to UK legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. The Act in this case is the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Scotland) Act 2015. To summarise, the objective of the Act is to consolidate and strengthen the existing criminal law in Scotland against human trafficking and exploitation and to enhance the status of and support for the victims of these crimes. After passing through the Scottish Parliament, the Act received Royal Assent on 4 November 2015.
The 2015 Act is in six parts. Part 1 introduces two new offences: a new single offence of human trafficking for all types of exploitation and a new offence of,
“slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour”.
These replace existing offences in Scots law. The maximum penalty for human trafficking has increased from 14 years to life imprisonment. Part 2 includes provision on the support and assistance to which adult and child victims of human trafficking are entitled. The remaining parts deal with, among other things, the confiscation of property and proceeds of crime, in Part 3, and the introduction in Part 4 of two new preventive and risk orders in Scotland. In Part 5 the Act also places a duty on Scottish Ministers to prepare a trafficking and exploitation strategy.
As I said, if passed, this draft order would amend UK legislation as a consequence of the Act. The order updates existing UK legislation to give the 2015 Act full effect: to reflect the new Scottish offences, to ensure that the relevant powers of UK immigration officers are updated in line with the new offences so that they are able to detain vehicles, ships or aircraft where a person has been arrested for the offence of human trafficking, and to reflect new powers conferred on the police under the 2015 Act.
The order will, for example, update references to existing Scottish offences in relevant legislation applying in other parts of the UK. These changes, primarily to the Modern Slavery Act 2015 but also to the Immigration Act 1971 and the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004, will refer to the new single offence of “human trafficking” and the new offence of slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour in Scottish legislation and the repeal of existing offences.
The order will enable English and Welsh courts to enforce the two new Scottish trafficking and exploitation prevention and risk orders, which will ensure joined-up and robust enforcement. It will also implement the policy intention of some aspects of the Modern Slavery Act 2015 that relate to Scotland by ensuring the scope of the UK’s Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner’s work and the duty of large companies to report on transparency in supply chains are both updated so that, in Scotland, these flow from the new Scottish offences.
The UK and Scottish Government Ministers and officials have worked closely together to ensure that this order makes in an effective manner the necessary amendments to UK legislation in consequence of the Act of the Scottish Parliament. I believe that this order demonstrates the UK Government’s continued commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work.
I hope noble Lords will agree that this order is an appropriate use of the powers in the Scotland Act and that the practical result is something to be welcomed. I commend the order to the Committee.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his careful introduction to this draft order. I should point out at the very outset that it goes without saying that I am entirely in sympathy with the aims of the Act itself and the draft order for the reasons which the noble Lord has given. The reason I have risen to my feet is to draw attention to two problems with the wording of Article 2, which deals with the detention of a “vehicle, ship or aircraft” in circumstances where a person has been arrested and there are “reasonable grounds” for thinking that it might be forfeited. The article itself is very well laid out and extremely clear in its terms, and it is only because of the clarity of the terms and the way it is laid out that two matters have come to my attention which I respectfully suggest may require further thought.
The broad structure is to identify first the power to detain in paragraph (1) of Article 2. The second is paragraph (2) of Article 2, which says that the,
“vehicle, ship or aircraft may be detained”,
until certain things have happened. It is important for the protection of the individual who owns the article in question, be it a vehicle, ship or aircraft, that the date at which the detention comes to an end—if, indeed, it is to be released from detention—is clearly identified. One has in mind, of course, Article 1 of Protocol 1 to the European Convention on Human Rights, which gives a right to the peaceful enjoyment of one’s possessions, of which one may be deprived only in the public interest and subject to conditions prescribed by law. This is fulfilling the requirement that the conditions should be prescribed by law and it is important that they should be properly set out.
If one works through Article 2(2), one sees that the detention may come to an end when a decision is taken as to whether or not to begin solemn proceedings or, if solemn proceedings are begun against a person arrested for the offence, until certain things happen. I have no complaint about sub-paragraph (a); it is sub-paragraph (b) that begins to open up some possible points of difficulty. Where solemn proceedings are begun, they may result in the acquittal of the individual, which is set out there. That indeed would be a point at which the article would be released from the detention. Heading (ii) refers to conviction and identifies correctly that the question of whether the article is released from detention will depend on whether the High Court or the sheriff, as the case may be,
“decides whether or not to order forfeiture”.
When that decision is taken, if it is not to order forfeiture, it is clear that the detention comes to an end. The problem arises when one looks at heading (iii), which uses the phrase “proceedings are otherwise concluded”. Very properly, the drafter has gone on to seek to identify the stage at which proceedings are otherwise concluded. It begins by saying:
“For the purposes of paragraph (2) … solemn proceedings begin”—
in well-understood circumstances where there is a first appearance or the indictment is served. I have no problem with that part of the article. The problems arise when looking at paragraph (3)(b), which says that,
“proceedings are taken to be otherwise concluded if … the proceedings are deserted simpliciter”.
That is a very clear point of time. When the Crown deserts proceedings simpliciter they are brought absolutely to an end, there are no further proceedings and it is perfectly proper that the article should no longer be detained. It identifies the point of time very accurately.
Under heading (ii), however, we are dealing with a different kind of desertion of proceedings, “pro loco et tempore”, which is a phrase used in the Scottish courts for the situation where the prosecutor decides that the case cannot proceed for the time being because, for example, the witness is seriously ill or absent and the Crown simply cannot lead the evidence needed to enable the proceedings to go on. The judge or the sheriff, as the case may be, has to decide whether it is proper that proceedings should be stayed temporarily for that purpose. He may refuse to do that, in which case it may be that the Crown is driven to deserting the proceedings simpliciter, but we are dealing with a situation where a decision is to accede to the Crown’s request that the proceedings be deserted “pro loco et tempore”, and,
“no further trial diet is appointed”.
The problem with that concluding phrase is that it leaves in the air the date at which one knows for certain that there will be no further trial diet. Under the Scottish system, the prosecution is entirely in the hands of the Lord Advocate. With great respect, I suggest that it might be better to clarify in some way the point of time at which one can be certain that no further trial diet will be appointed. That is frequently done by the Crown Office writing to the accused saying that it has decided to take no further proceedings. If a letter of that kind is written, it binds the Crown not to proceed any further and the date of the letter is be the date on which one knows for certain that the vehicle, ship or whatever it is should no longer be detained. The better way in which to phrase it might be for a certificate by the Lord Advocate himself or herself to be obtained which would identify his or her decision that there should be no further proceedings. That would achieve absolute clarity and ensure that the decision was ultimately taken by the law officer. Given the importance of what we are dealing with, which is really a very serious crime indeed, it would be best to obtain his or her decision that there should be no further proceedings.
The same point arises in paragraph (4), where we are dealing with three things that are added together. First,
“the indictment falls or is for any other reason not brought to trial”.
Secondly,
“the diet is not continued, adjourned or postponed”,
and, thirdly,
“no further proceedings are in contemplation”.
I do not have any problem with the first two, but with the last one, how does one know that,
“no further proceedings are in contemplation”?
Again, the suggestion is that the best way of ensuring certainty about that would be to obtain a certificate from a law officer—preferably the Lord Advocate—which would identify the decision at that level that there should be no further proceedings.
There are some situations in which a statute intervenes to say that if proceedings are not taken within a given period of time the indictment necessarily falls. In summary proceedings there is a cut-off date of, I think, six months—it may be 12 months—but when one is dealing with proceedings on indictment, as we are here, there is generally no absolute cut-off date in Scots law. I am subject to correction but I do not think that the statutes which we are dealing with as background to this order actually lay down a period of time within which the indictment must be brought. One is dealing with this problem in an area where there is no statutory backing to give a certain date at which the detention of the vehicle or whatever it is should be brought to an end, and therefore something has to be written into the order to make this clear.
I emphasise that I am not in any way raising these points to cause problems for the Minister. However, I suggest that in the interests of everybody it is better to be quite sure that one has identified correctly a cut-off date at each of the various stages with which this order is dealing. Article 2 has identified some of them perfectly correctly in accordance with Scots procedure, but in the two paragraphs that I have identified, in Article 2(3)(b)(ii) and Article 2(4)(c), I suggest that there is a lack of clarity and that it would be better for the Minister to take time and advice to see whether that clarity can be provided.
Lord Dunlop
I thank noble Lords for this short debate. I am particularly grateful, as ever, to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for his offer to occupy the crease—that would be a way to put it—so that I have sufficient time to answer the detailed points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. I also thank the noble and learned Lord for giving notice of the questions he intended to ask. He raised a number of detailed points. I recognise that his expertise in Scots law is of an altogether different class to my own. I understand that the wording he refers to is consistent with the wording in the 2016 Act of the Scottish Parliament. I therefore fear that I do not have a clear answer for him on the detailed points he has raised this afternoon. Obviously, however, I undertake to take advice and to consider carefully the points he has raised, and, having done that, I will come back to him in writing to address those points.
I echo what the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, said. This order is testimony to the joint commitment shown by this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament to take action and to tackle the scourge of trafficking and slavery, and I therefore commend it to the Committee.
Brexit: Scotland
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with Ministers and officials of the Scottish Government regarding the implications of the referendum vote to leave the European Union, since the Prime Minister’s visit to Edinburgh on 15 July.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
The Prime Minister is clear that the Government will work closely with the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations to ensure that the interests of all parts of the United Kingdom are properly taken into account. Discussions have already taken place between UK and Scottish Government Ministers and officials. The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union first spoke to the First Minister on 20 July and underlined the importance that the Government attach to engagement in Scotland.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)
My Lords, the Government have rightly expressed their support for a continuing soft border with the Republic of Ireland, yet they also appear to want to control freedom of movement from the European Union. In trying to square that circle, what assessments have the UK and Scottish Governments made of the increasing number of immigration offenders travelling to Scottish ferry ports from Northern Ireland, and how do the respective Governments intend to address any consequent financial and operational pressures on Police Scotland?
Lord Dunlop
The First Minister of Scotland was before the Scottish Parliament’s European and External Relations Committee yesterday. I think she said that there have been extensive ongoing discussions between the Scottish and UK Governments and that she was very optimistic that the discussions could make progress. I am sure that the issue raised by the noble and learned Lord will feature in those discussions.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that if the First Minister of Scotland accepts the Brexit referendum as binding, she should also accept the Scottish referendum as binding? Will the United Kingdom Government make it clear that we would not agree to another Scottish referendum in the foreseeable future?
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord will know that the SNP has announced a listening exercise in Scotland—and if it were listening, I think the first thing that it would do would be to take “indyref 2”, as it is known in Scotland, off the table. It is absolutely clear from all the recent opinion polls that the majority of Scots do not want it. Just as important is that business does not want it either, because businesses can see that it is damaging to investment and the economy. So I totally agree that it should be taken off the table.
Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, even if an independent Scotland eventually gained access to the European Union by meeting the deficit requirements—which at present it cannot conceivably meet—and being able to afford the premium, it would be giving up an open export market in England that takes 50% of its exports in favour of a market in Europe that takes only 15%?
Lord Dunlop
My noble friend is absolutely right. Scottish exports to the EU are 15% and Scottish exports to the rest of the UK are 64%. Over the summer, the Secretary of State and I held a huge number of engagements with stakeholders across Scotland—I think that there were 53 in total—and the clear message from business is of the importance of the UK’s single market.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, would the Government consider including Scottish civil servants in the UK negotiating team? Will the Government also consult widely across all sectors in Scotland to try to secure a deal in the best interests of Scotland, bearing in mind that for the majority of us, independence is not the best option?
Lord Dunlop
The noble Lord is absolutely right. We want to get the best possible deal for all of the UK. When he appeared before the House of Lords committee the other day, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union said that he would look at some joint working. Each Government need a safe space in which to work out their position. That may provide some constraints to the degree of joint working, but there certainly needs to be full engagement.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, it is of course right and proper and correct that the UK Government should consult all the devolved Governments within the United Kingdom on developments after Brexit. Does the Minister agree with the Labour Party and with me, as a Labour Party spokesperson in this Chamber, that no matter what the ramifications of Brexit are—and there will be complicated discussions—there is absolutely no justification for a divisive “indyref 2”, as it is called in Scotland?
Lord Dunlop
In a couple of days’ time we will be celebrating the second anniversary of a clear and decisive referendum in Scotland. I do not believe that the EU referendum provided a mandate for a second independence referendum. This is not about whether there could be an independence referendum but whether there should be one. The UK Government are very clear that there should not be another independence referendum—and I think that an increasing number of voices in the SNP are coming to that conclusion.
Lord Lexden (Con)
Does not this issue underline the importance of improved arrangements for inter- governmental co-operation within the United Kingdom, which was the subject of a report by the Constitution Committee published in March last year?
Lord Dunlop
As my noble friend will know, there are a number of bits of intergovernmental working architecture, including the Joint Ministerial Committee and the British-Irish Council. In addition to the bilateral discussions that need to take place between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations, we need to use those multilateral forums to discuss the implications of exiting the EU and how we go forward.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the Government have pledged to consult the devolved Administrations and London about the implications of Brexit. However, there are some very distinctive interests in the disadvantaged regions of England. The population of Yorkshire is slightly larger than the population of Scotland. Do the Government have any intention of finding a way to consult the north and the west of England about their very real interests, which are distinct from those of London and which the Government need to take into account?
Lord Dunlop
I am sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union wants to consult and engage widely. I note what the noble Lord said and I will certainly pass it on to my right honourable friend.
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, I shall respond briefly to what has been said. In moving that the Bill do now pass, I thank all noble Lords from across the Chamber who have been involved in its passage through this House, including the noble Lord, Lord Bew, and my noble friend Lord Lexden. I thank them for their kind words. I think that it is fair to say while the contributions on this Bill may have been less numerous than on others, their quality has more than made up for that. Indeed, how could it be otherwise when this House benefits from the wisdom and experience of noble Lords who have played such important and direct roles over the years in putting Northern Ireland on a path of peace, progress and prosperity?
I note what my noble friend Lord Lexden said. To address directly the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, the Bill indeed gives effect to agreements that have been reached by the Northern Ireland parties. It is very much a theme that we have devolved institutions and we must ensure that those institutions develop and take on their responsibilities.
As noble Lords are aware, we have proceeded with the Bill faster than is usual. That was to ensure that the enhanced pledge of office and new undertakings for Members of the Assembly, as well as the extension of the time available for ministerial appointments, would be in place for the Assembly’s return after next week’s elections. I particularly thank Members on the Front Bench opposite for their support with this expedited timetable. I also take this opportunity to put on record my appreciation of the officials from the Northern Ireland Office who have supported me during the passage of the Bill and at the various briefings that we have held.
My noble friend Lord Lexden raised the issue of the pledge of office and the undertakings given by Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I assure the House that is it is absolutely the case that on the issue of sanctions and any breaches of the undertaking, the Government will give every encouragement to the new Executive and the new Assembly, once formed, to give this very careful consideration.
I recognise that there are many issues arising from the Stormont House and fresh start agreements that are not in the Bill, and I am sure that on future occasions we will return to many of the issues that have been raised across the House by noble Lords on how best to deal with the legacy of Northern Ireland’s troubled past. But I hope that the House will agree that the Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill, while not providing all the answers, maintains the momentum achieved by the fresh start agreement, and marks another significant step forward in tackling the malign threat of paramilitary activity and securing the more peaceful, stable and prosperous future for Northern Ireland that we all want to see.
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill
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Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the contributions of all noble Lords on these amendments. I record the Labour Party’s appreciation of the Independent Reporting Commission, the creation of which is extremely important. The Labour Party also expressed that appreciation in the other place.
As regards representation, the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, echoed almost completely the view put forward by the Labour Front Bencher in the Commons, Steve Pound. The only thing that I think Steve Pound missed out was the square mileage, but he certainly referred to the saying that everybody knows one another. I have listened to many debates on representation in Northern Ireland on various bodies. With due respect to those who have far more experience than I do and who live in the place, no one has come up with a solution that is accepted by everyone. That is the difficulty we face with the representation issue. It is important that the view of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on that issue is heard.
On the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, I make it clear that if the Government can come up with a form of words in an amendment to reflect that position, we would support it. On the other hand—there are always three hands in Northern Ireland—if that would delay the passage of the Bill in any way, we would support the Government on that.
Although the legislation refers to reporting once a year, does that preclude further reports? Can the commission of itself respond to any given situation and issue a report or carry out an investigation and comment on any incidents that arise, or is an amendment needed to enable it to do so? The legislation does not strike me as restricting the commission to producing only one report. As we all know, events can move very quickly in Northern Ireland. Therefore, I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that the commission will be able to carry out reports as and when required.
In ending my remarks, and as I think that everything has been said, I just echo the view expressed by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, that although we know that not everybody listens to what is said in this place, there is a place for us in appealing in moderate language for cross-party and cross-community support. I value his point of view very much.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 1 and 2, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, and Lord Empey, respectively. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in what has been, as my noble friend Lord Lexden said, a very interesting and wide-ranging debate. My noble friend Lord Trimble raised a number of issues that go wider than the amendments. He asked, in particular, about the strategy to tackle paramilitary activity. The commission will report on measures of the three Administrations, including but not restricted to the strategy. He also mentioned issues that had been raised by the Delegated Powers Committee: the duties of the Independent Reporting Commission and the guidance the Secretary of State can issue. I have responded to the Delegated Powers Committee. My noble friend raised a number of detailed broader points and I am happy to respond to him in writing on those.
Before addressing the substance of the amendments, I will give an overview of the Independent Reporting Commission and Clause 1, to which the amendments relate. The new commission is one of a series of measures set out in November’s fresh start agreement to tackle ongoing paramilitarism. The new commission builds on the precedent set by the Independent Monitoring Commission, on which the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, gave such distinguished service as a commissioner. As the House knows, the Independent Monitoring Commission operated between 2004 and 2011, during which time it monitored activity by paramilitary groups and oversaw the implementation of security normalisation measures, which culminated in the ending of Operation Banner in July 2007. Like the Independent Monitoring Commission before it, the Independent Reporting Commission will be an international body, established through an international agreement between the UK Government and Irish Government. Its objective will be to promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity. Its functions will be to report annually on progress towards ending paramilitary activity; to report on the implementation of the measures taken by the Government, Northern Ireland Executive and Irish Government to tackle paramilitary activity, including oversight of the implementation of the Executive’s strategy to end paramilitarism; and to consult a wide range of stakeholders, including law enforcement agencies, local councils, communities and civic society organisations.
I said that the commission will report annually on progress towards ending paramilitary activity. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, proposes that Clause 1 be amended to prescribe that the new commission must report twice annually. I have absolutely no doubt that this reflects the noble Lord’s considerable experience, as he suggested, as a member of the Independent Monitoring Commission, which reported twice annually while in operation. I am sure that all sides of the House would agree that there should be urgency in tackling paramilitary activity and establishing momentum in this process.
However, as I have outlined, the new commission, while subject to similar governance arrangements, has a different objective and functions from the IMC, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, recognised in his own remarks. The frequency with which it reports must necessarily take account of those different functions. This question was considered as part of the discussions that led to the fresh start agreement, where it was agreed that annual reporting would strike the best balance between ensuring regular and adequate oversight of measures taken to tackle paramilitary activity and allowing sufficient time between reports for progress to be made. Paramilitary activity has unfortunately been a scourge on Northern Ireland society for many years. The measures to be taken to tackle it, on whose impact the commission will report, will not work overnight.
An annual reporting cycle was judged most appropriate to properly measure progress towards the goal of tackling paramilitarism and offer meaningful commentary on the implementation of measures to this end. The fresh start agreement therefore gives the new commission a function to report annually on progress towards ending continued paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland, or on such further occasions as required.
Lord Trimble
The Minister says that he is quoting what was said in the fresh start agreement but, as I pointed out, that agreement, while saying “annually”, also clearly anticipated other reports as required. I hope the Minister will come on to that.
Lord Dunlop
I am glad that my noble friend raised that point because I am indeed about to address it. I recognise that the intent behind the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is to highlight that more frequent reporting may be necessary. To respond directly to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, this does not preclude more frequent reports. The fresh start agreement does provide flexibility for more frequent reports, as my noble friend Lord Trimble said, should circumstances mean that this is appropriate, but it does not envisage that this will be the norm. This will, I suggest, allow more flexibility to respond to circumstances that may arise than by prescribing twice-yearly reports. We will discuss the circumstances in which more frequent reporting may be appropriate with the new Irish Government, as soon as it is formed. To address the point on which the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, sought reassurance, the final agreement establishing the committee is still under discussion with the Government of Ireland. It is our expectation, however, that the sponsoring Governments will be able to request more frequent or ad hoc reports as circumstances dictate.
I turn to the make-up of the commission and Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey. As set out in the fresh start agreement, the commission will consist of four members: one nominated by the UK Government, one by the Irish Government, and two by the Executive. For the purposes of the Bill, in the case of the Executive’s nominees, it has been necessary to confer the power to nominate members on a specific statutory office holder or body within the Executive, as the Executive is not a body under the Northern Ireland Act. Clause 1(4) therefore confers on the First and Deputy First Ministers the power to jointly nominate their members.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has proposed that the Northern Ireland Policing Board should be given this power instead. The same amendment was proposed in the other place. The fresh start agreement specified that the Executive should nominate two members to the IRC. I note what the noble Lord has said about the extent of all-party agreement; notwithstanding that, the Northern Ireland Assembly did give legislative consent to aspects of this Bill that we are bringing forward. It is the Government’s view that the First and Deputy First Ministers, acting jointly, are the most appropriate officeholders to nominate members on behalf of the Executive as a whole, in view of the objective and functions of the commission, which go beyond criminal justice. In particular, they have responsibility for delivering a number of the Executive’s measures to tackle paramilitarism on which the IRC will report. Moreover, requiring the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to act jointly—which is how they currently exercise almost all of their powers and, as my noble friend Lord Trimble said, the panel on which the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, serves has emerged from this process—is intended to ensure a collaborative process and nominees that have cross-community credibility.
The NI Policing Board is not part of the Executive and the amendment proposed would therefore be inconsistent with the terms of the fresh start agreement. However, neither the Bill nor the fresh start agreement specifies how the First and Deputy First Ministers will decide on their joint nominees. They may, therefore, seek suggestions from external stakeholders, such as the Policing Board, and consult with their Executive colleagues in reaching their decision. We would, of course, encourage them to do so. The key point, as I said at Second Reading, is that the four-person commission should collectively carry credibility across the Northern Ireland community. In this vein, as I also said at Second Reading, I welcome the commitment given by Minister Emma Pengelly during the debate on 15 March —in which the Northern Assembly passed a legislative consent Motion for several provisions in this Bill—to consult with the Justice Minister.
This Government are clear that paramilitarism has no place in Northern Ireland society. The new commission will therefore play an important role in tackling paramilitary activity and associated criminality. For the reasons I have outlined, I urge noble Lords to withdraw their amendments and beg to move that Clause 1 stand part of the Bill.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in this debate and expressed their strong support for the amendment in my name. I am also grateful for the kind words many of them have said about my own efforts. I hope that the existence of such robust support for Amendment 1 will affect the continuing thinking of Her Majesty’s Government and of the Minister here. I was at least a little encouraged by his saying that there were still negotiations to be had with the Irish Government. That is important, and I have little doubt that I will be making my views apparent to them. I am also a little encouraged by the Minister’s telling the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, that there was more to be said on what the Secretary of State might say and do on regulations, for example. I think we will continue to show interest in that area even after this legislation is passed.
It is very important that the Government understand that it is the relentless pressure that often reaches the successful outcome. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, said that we can provide by this process encouragement to those who want to give up, as well as pressure on those who do not necessarily want to. That point has been apparent in my own conversations over the last two or three months. I hope that it will be part of the calculus of Her Majesty’s Government. With that hope, and being a little encouraged by the Minister’s comments. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McAvoy
I am contributing to the length of this debate and I should not be. These are international treaties. We cannot tell somebody else how to designate themselves. So I am quite surprised at the noble Lord, Lord Lexden—although I was very impressed that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, weighed in to support him. It made me a bit wary of saying what I said—but, on the other hand, I have said it and I will leave it at that.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, in rising to respond to this short debate, I will echo the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in saying that when we have heard from two very eminent historians, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, and my noble friend Lord Lexden, we should tread very warily—but tread I must.
Amendment 2A relates to a number of clauses in the Bill that deal with the Independent Reporting Commission. As my noble friend Lord Lexden made clear, he raised this issue at Second Reading and I am very grateful to him for giving the House an opportunity to debate it this afternoon. My noble friend has proposed that the reference to “Ireland” in Clause 2(3)(a) should be changed to “Republic of Ireland”. I have known my noble friend for well over 30 years and know that throughout that time his interest in and commitment to Northern Ireland has been constant and steadfast—and his sense of history is unfailing. Having also worked under his tutelage, I can also personally attest to his great attention to important detail.
With regard to my noble friend’s amendment, I can confirm that it has been the practice since 2006 to refer to “Ireland” in international agreements and in UK legislation, and that the references to “Ireland” in the Bill are therefore in line with current drafting practice. Indeed, I think I am right in saying that the legislation that established the IMC in 2003 used the term “Ireland”. So the Government are confident that the 1949 Act does not require the use of the term “Republic of Ireland”.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, to the Dispatch Box. He played a very significant role in Northern Ireland, and it is great to see him speaking from the Dispatch Box.
Before I address the amendments, it has already been mentioned that organisations that deal with the legacy of the past may be the subject of legislation in future, but only if sufficient consensus can be established among the Northern Ireland parties. Amendments 3 and 5, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, relate to the definition of a victim in relation to the role of the Commission for Victims and Survivors. Before I engage on the detail of these amendments and the challenges that they pose, I first make clear that the Government are sympathetic to the import and feeling behind them. Noble Lords will be aware that the definition of a victim in Northern Ireland is a matter of considerable contention. It is a matter that has been debated in this House before—indeed, I think the noble Lord, Lord Empey, tabled a similar amendment to the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in November 2014—and it remains an area of disagreement between the Northern Ireland parties that is yet to be resolved.
The legislation defining a victim in the context of legacy matters in Northern Ireland relates to the work of the Commission for Victims and Survivors. Under that order, which is now a devolved responsibility, the term “victim and survivor” is defined as a person appearing to the commission to be physically or psychologically injured as a result of a conflict-related incident, or who regularly provides substantial care for such a person, or who is bereaved as a result. This is a broad definition and can include persons who are psychologically injured as a result of being a witness to an incident or of providing medical or emergency assistance to a person in connection with an incident.
The placing of restrictions on the definition of a victim is a difficult and complex issue affecting access to services for those who have suffered losses during the Troubles. However, let me be clear again that the Government believe that there is an unquestionable distinction between innocent victims and perpetrators. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said in February:
“The terrorist campaigns caused untold misery and suffering”,
and we will never accept any equivalence between those who sought to defend democracy and those who attempted to destroy it.
Under the current definition, it is possible for someone who was a perpetrator of violence or their family member or carer to be defined as a victim and to benefit from the commission’s assistance. The Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 was passed by the previous Labour Government, and the definition remains highly controversial, with the Northern Ireland parties divided on the issue. The lack of consensus around the definition of a victim is one of the key challenges in dealing with the past, and the issue has not formed part of the two agreements reached in recent cross-party talks: the Stormont House and fresh start agreements.
As I mentioned previously, this legislation is now a devolved matter and therefore the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Accordingly, any change to the definition would require cross-community support in the Assembly, and at present the issue is not one on which the Northern Ireland parties have been able to agree a way forward. Even if the Assembly were currently sitting, I doubt that a legislative consent Motion would be agreed enabling this Parliament to change the definition.
Noble Lords will be aware of the significant progress that has already been made on legacy issues during the Stormont House talks towards the end of 2014. It included the Northern Ireland Executive agreeing the Victims and Survivors Commission’s recommendation for a new mental trauma service, better to meet the needs in this area. Advocate counsellor assistance was agreed for victims and survivors in order to provide support and help to individuals in accessing relevant services.
When it comes to the past, and I recognise that many noble Lords have strong views on how best to deal with it, it is clear that victims should be our first priority. These commitments in the Stormont House agreement have the potential to deliver better outcomes for victims and their families. The delivery of the Stormont House agreement still represents the best chance of making progress on these matters and remains the Government’s priority in dealing with Northern Ireland’s troubled past.
My noble friend has made an argument on the issue of victims with which it is easy to sympathise. As I have made clear, the Government agree that there is a clear distinction between innocent victims and perpetrators. However, the matter is one that I am sure noble Lords will agree is best resolved by the political parties in Northern Ireland, and on that basis I urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Empey
I am obliged to the Minister for his response. I would point out to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and others that I and my party will take any legislative opportunity that we can to put this case forward. It should be drawn to people’s attention that the current legislation was introduced during direct rule. Had there been devolution at that time, there would not have been agreement on the current order because it does not do what it says on the tin. For that reason, we would object strongly. The reason why this Parliament has a role is its oversight over some of the fundamental issues. I still believe that while this particular legislative vehicle may not be the most appropriate, it is nevertheless possible to resolve this because it is such a fundamental issue.
The Minister says that Stormont has this responsibility today, but I can tell him that had Stormont been dealing with things at this stage in 2006 it would never have agreed to this particular set of proposals, because they leave the door wide open. They do not distinguish between a perpetrator and victim; in fact, they make the perpetrator and the victim equal. That is what the order says, and my amendment seeks to change that.
I understand the dilemma that the Minister is in. We can run away from this issue as much as we like but sooner or later we are going to have to confront it. Whether in this vehicle or some other vehicle is unimportant, but I personally and my colleagues in my party will take every legislative opportunity that comes our way to put this case until the matter is resolved. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen
My Lords, again, I express a lot of sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and other noble Lords have said with regard to this amendment. There is no doubt that, if you have a pledge of office, there is not much point in having one unless you can enforce it. Your Lordships will recall that, during the course of the talks which led up to the Good Friday agreement, both Sinn Fein and a paramilitary party were excluded from them because they were seen to breach a similar sort of pledge. Therefore, in a way, this has run through negotiations in Northern Ireland politics for a long time.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that this is an issue of public confidence. There is no point in having the pledge, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said at Second Reading, unless it is enforceable. However, at the same time we know, and the Minister will undoubtedly tell us, that the Bill needs to go through quickly because of the election and other reasons. Therefore, how do you deal with a situation which is significant but which you are reluctant to legislate on because of the necessity of having to deal with it quickly?
I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who was absolutely right that there are other ways of dealing with this. That is, the Secretary of State and Minister can return to Northern Ireland at the point when further discussions are held on these matters, ensure that the debate is held here and in the other place, and that there is cross-party support for the need for Standing Orders to express a view that, if the pledges are breached, there should be some method by which you can enforce some sort of punishment. What that would be I am sure would be a matter for great debate and negotiation, but it has to be addressed. Otherwise, the pledges are hollow and meaningless.
It seems to me that, during the course of the negotiations that led up to the fresh start agreement, people accepted the idea that there should be a pledge—obviously, it would not be in front of us otherwise. I am sure, although I do not know, that they must have talked about the enforceability of sanctions. So the ball is now in the Government’s court, and although it is not practical or feasible for this legislation to deal with it, it is practical and feasible for the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to go back and talk with the political parties and try to get agreement.
Lord Dunlop
My Lords, this has been a short but important debate. Clause 8 makes provision for a new undertaking to be given by all Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, in line with the fresh start agreement. To be clear with the Committee, it was necessary to introduce this undertaking through Westminster legislation because the Assembly is prohibited by the Northern Ireland Act from introducing a requirement for its Members to make an oath or declaration as a condition of taking office. The Assembly has established mechanisms for holding MLAs to account for their adherence to the existing Assembly code of conduct, through the Assembly Committee on Standards and Privileges and the independent Commissioner for Standards. The Assembly already has the power to introduce measures to investigate alleged breaches of the undertaking and to impose sanctions for any such breaches.
The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, assumes that Standing Orders would be the obvious vehicle for introducing any such measures, but this is not necessarily the only vehicle. For example, it may be open to the Assembly to legislate. There may of course be other options, and it is right that the Assembly should be able to debate and explore the available options for itself. Indeed, the whole issue of devolution was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Trimble. There is considerable value in the Assembly and not this House determining how MLAs should be held to account for any breaches of the new undertaking, just as this House holds its Members to account for their behaviour. Any such measures would of course need to be built upon cross-community support in the Assembly, and it must be right that Assembly Members should be subject to scrutiny for their conduct.
To answer the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, the Government will of course encourage the Assembly to consider carefully how this might be achieved. However, for the reasons I have given, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Empey
Once again, I thank the Minister for his comments and thank other noble Lords who have participated in this. As with the Minister, it is great to see the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, at the Dispatch Box once again. He knows his onions when it comes to this subject.
The Minister is right that Standing Orders may not be the only mechanism. I do not care what the mechanism is, to be honest. The simple point—the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, put it very clearly—is that these pledges mean nothing if they can be ignored with no consequence. That is self-evident. The Minister hinted to us that he intended to bring forward another piece of legislation in the next Session, perhaps to deal with legacy and other matters. There will therefore be time for the Assembly to address this issue, and I welcome that, but there will also be time for the Assembly not to address it. However, I think that we, and the Government, will be provided with an opportunity and the time to get this matter resolved. If it is not resolved, it will continue to fester.
If I may paraphrase MacArthur, I assure the Minister that we shall return to this matter if it is not resolved. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.