Investigatory Powers Bill (First sitting)

Lord Davies of Gower Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

I do not know this witness, Chair, but Mr McClure, a witnesses this afternoon, is my constituent and is known to me personally.

[Byron Davies (Gower) (Con)]

I was a member of some of the agencies that will attend today.

[Suella Fernandes (Fareham) (Con)]

I was a Treasury counsel, representing Government Departments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Frazer]

Q Do you accept that, if some communications data in an old form of technology is helpful, then in a modern form of technology exactly the same powers will also be useful?

Sara Ogilvie: I agree that there are powers that are absolutely necessary and helpful. I do not think that there is a direct comparator between old and new powers in this case. I completely agree that the security services and law enforcement need targeted powers to gather communications data, so maybe they can use those to target particular websites where we know that paedophile information is provided. They can be used to target suspected criminals. That is all completely adequate use of powers; but what we have is this broad power in the Bill that targets absolutely everyone and is not focused on those individuals, and that is what I have the problem with.

[Byron Davies]

Q Mr King, you have mentioned a couple of times now, in the first part of your evidence, you talked about formidable intrusive powers. You quite agree that the agencies should have these powers. So in view of what has happened recently in Paris and in Brussels, I am really somewhat confused as to what you are trying to tell us in your evidence as to what the agencies should have. Do you know? Are you clear in your own mind what these powers should be?

Eric King: Yes. The Bill’s structure—some of the core powers there—you do not disagree with. The question is often about the scale of the powers—how they are used and the safeguards that are put in place around them. To my mind, the mass collection of material in a generalised form for analysis is not a proportionate activity, and I think this is something that particularly the European Court are confirming. I heard David Anderson say that there was a split view on that. It will be important to hear the judgments later this year, but they have to have very strong powers; but it is how they are used, and the scale of them, and the targets of them, which are so vital to get right. I am afraid that for me this is the bit in the Bill that is not in the right place at the moment, I suppose.

[Byron Davies]

Q But criminals and terrorists would not regard it in that respect.

Eric King: They would not—

[Byron Davies]

Q They would not see it the way you see it, obviously.

Eric King: I do not know what criminals and terrorists would think about this Bill.